Are 802D such a disaster?

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  • Antonkk
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2010
    • 106

    Are 802D such a disaster?

    I was surprised to see so much negative comments regarding 802D in my recent Matrix 801 vs 802D thread. Is it THAT bad?


    "The 802D i find the sound rather brittle almost piercing to the ears. Just about all of my cd's now sound awfull."

    " listening fatigue on treble is certainly my experience too."

    " 802D sound harsh, out of control, bass is not that good. sad really."


    All this on THIS forum, not from the usual B&W bashing crowd on audiogon or audioasylum. :roll:
  • mjb
    Super Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 1483

    #2
    Nope, they're fine speakers for sure. Personaly, I love my 802d's, and consider them the sweet spot of the range. I can't tell you how they compare to the 801 Matrix though.
    - Mike

    Main System:
    B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
    Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

    Comment

    • htsteve
      Super Senior Member
      • Sep 2004
      • 1216

      #3
      Originally posted by mjb
      Nope, they're fine speakers for sure. Personaly, I love my 802d's, and consider them the sweet spot of the range. I can't tell you how they compare to the 801 Matrix though.
      antonkk,

      I agree with this. I also believe the 802D is the sweet spot in the 800 series. I simply haven't heard the older models to make a valid comparison. What you read are someones opinions and assessments. These are part of your information gathering process.

      The best thing to do is listen to both of them and let you ears decide.

      Comment

      • MikeFL52
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2007
        • 118

        #4
        Originally posted by htsteve
        antonkk,

        I agree with this. I also believe the 802D is the sweet spot in the 800 series. I simply haven't heard the older models to make a valid comparison. What you read are someones opinions and assessments. These are part of your information gathering process.

        The best thing to do is listen to both of them and let you ears decide.
        +1
        There are so many influences on speakers that you cannot judge them in isolation, especially on these forums. Maybe the supporting electronics are not appropriate for the speaker, maybe the room treatment is off wack for the speaker, maybe the poster is just sour for some reason.

        The complete 800 "D" series are excellent speakers; perfect? No, but very very good for all types of music and program.

        Comment

        • JürgenW
          Senior Member
          • Jul 2004
          • 156

          #5
          Originally posted by Antonkk
          All this on THIS forum, not from the usual B&W bashing crowd on audiogon or audioasylum. :roll:
          I read the comments as speaking about a comparison between two kinds of B&W speakers and not as an absolut comment.
          In the end one person prefers speaker X and another one speaker Y.

          Comment

          • boarder1995
            Member
            • Sep 2009
            • 68

            #6
            I originally listened to some 802D during my "which speakers do I want to take home" phase and was initially turned off by them. So much so that I didn't want to spend much more time with B&W after that. I wasn't sure if it was the Diamond tweeter, the Classe amps and processor or what. I went on to audition Sonus Faber quite extensively and tried Paradigm's top units, and serveral other brands with varying degrees of satisfaction. I eventually came back to B&W to give them another whirl - 805S - and really got into a good listening session. This time with Mac gear. Then I slowly worked my way back to trying the diamond tweeter in the 803D with Mac gear...man totally different. Everything to do with system synergy I figured, plus a whole lot to do with room acoustics. The room I originally listened to the 802D in was not ideal - way to live and bright. So, in the end, I've got 803D and would certainly entertain the idea of 802D, even with Classe, but room treatments to me are alwas a must. Ok, that's my take.

            Comment

            • beden1
              Super Senior Member
              • Oct 2006
              • 1676

              #7
              BMW Diamond speakers are more revealing than most others, and will make bad recordings sound bad. BMW speakers also need to be mated with very good electronics throughout the system. I'm surprised you didn't like them with the Classe equipment, as IMO, they sound sweet with these electronics driving them.

              Comment

              • Kal Rubinson
                Super Senior Member
                • Mar 2006
                • 2109

                #8
                Originally posted by boarder1995
                Everything to do with system synergy I figured, plus a whole lot to do with room acoustics. The room I originally listened to the 802D in was not ideal - way to live and bright.
                This is the problem with almost all demos. First, unless extreme care is taken in room design and setup, showroom demos are far from optimum. Second, trade shows are all over the map as the rooms tend to be awful but, often, a lot of care is lavished on the setup. Third, regardless of how good/bad the sound at any demo, it will be different in your room.

                Over the years, I have heard many great speakers sound like crap and crappy ones make a good demo under controlled conditions.
                Kal Rubinson
                _______________________________
                "Music in the Round"
                Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                Comment

                • windshear
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2004
                  • 243

                  #9
                  I currently have a pair of 802D's in my room as well as a pair of 801 SIII. The room is acoustically treated in a number of ways. I have always been extremely satisfied with my 801's. They have given an incredible sound stage, with depth, imaging and absolute clarity. I recently purchased a pair of used 802D's and im struggling to come to terms with what im hearing. Note, the only thing that has changed is the speaker in the room , nothing else on the equipment side of things.

                  The sound if i can describe it is brittle on the hi end. It is piercing to my ears. If i play the same thing, on my 801's its much smoother, warmer maybe more forgiving. This is not a case of favourable memory by comparision, its a real time comparison , just changing the speaker wire from one set to the other set of speakers and then repeating the listening experience. As i mentioned in another post literally all my cd's sound terrible now, thats how apparent the difference is between old and new.

                  Im actually at a loss in terms of what is going on here as i had expectations of comperable sound, not a step backwards. I cannot discount possible there being an issue with my 802D's, however i find that most unlikely. I cannot fault the sound stage or the imaging of the 802D's as well as their low level externsion in the bass department.

                  Maybe i just prefer the sound of the 801 SIII's, being more familiar with them. The point is i cannot listen at the same volume levels i had previously enjoyed as the shrill sound makes it most unpleasant.

                  This being my experience and 2 cents worth, by all means i can only suggest you keep an open mind as we all perceive sound differently and derive different pleasure from different music types. Go ahead and listen them , but keep in mind all the variables that can influence the sound quality as mentioned in Kal's post.

                  Rudi

                  Comment

                  • Skyblue
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2009
                    • 504

                    #10
                    Rudi, maybe the 801 SIII are better speakers. Who knows. Another possibility is that the synergy between your electronics and the 801SIII's just isn't present with the 802D's. What gear do you use?
                    B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                    Comment

                    • ShadowZA
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Jan 2006
                      • 1098

                      #11
                      Rudi, from your system specs as described in your profile it seems that you are using Rotel gear. Things might very well sound different (whichever way it goes) if the gear used was let's say Classe', Krell or McIntosh, etc. Source players, too, can make a difference. Of course, what is of vital importance is that what you prefer is what is right for you. :T

                      Comment

                      • Skyblue
                        Senior Member
                        • Jun 2009
                        • 504

                        #12
                        I think duane had a good answer over at audio asylum.
                        Audio Asylum - Speaker Asylum - General speaker questions for audio and home theater.


                        I am a B&W dealer along with a lot of different high end brands. The 802D is technically are far superior speaker BUT that's not the whole story.

                        The 801's are very colored and fake sounding (I thought this when they were new on the market) but more forgiving and warmer than the 802D. The 801's are easier to find an amp to match because the most important thing is lots of power and speed.

                        The 802D is harder to find a good amp for because they love power too but they also need a powerful amp that is fast in the bass but tube like in the highs. This limits you to Clayton, Symphonic Line, maybe Classe, older Coda, older NRG, older Essence, or Gryphon.

                        I am being extra picky because it is an expensive speaker and most people don't buy the right equipment for them and end up getting tired of audio and blaming it on something other than a mechanical and hard sounding system that your brain knows is not natural.

                        Cable choices, what CD player or cartridge you have and pre-amps can dial the system in one way or the other but work with a dealer or friend that really knows system matching and tuning. (a dying art form)

                        Duane Randleman
                        B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                        Comment

                        • Antonkk
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2010
                          • 106

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Skyblue
                          I think duane had a good answer over at audio asylum.
                          http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mp...akers&m=294215

                          It's weird he didn't mention McIntosh though.....

                          Comment

                          • Skyblue
                            Senior Member
                            • Jun 2009
                            • 504

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Antonkk
                            It's weird he didn't mention McIntosh though.....
                            While I never heard mcintosh with b&w it is generally considere a really good match. Perhaps he doesnt sell mcintosh
                            B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                            Comment

                            • ac81017
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2006
                              • 175

                              #15
                              Originally posted by windshear
                              I currently have a pair of 802D's in my room as well as a pair of 801 SIII. The room is acoustically treated in a number of ways. I have always been extremely satisfied with my 801's. They have given an incredible sound stage, with depth, imaging and absolute clarity. I recently purchased a pair of used 802D's and im struggling to come to terms with what im hearing. Note, the only thing that has changed is the speaker in the room , nothing else on the equipment side of things.

                              The sound if i can describe it is brittle on the hi end. It is piercing to my ears. If i play the same thing, on my 801's its much smoother, warmer maybe more forgiving. This is not a case of favourable memory by comparision, its a real time comparison , just changing the speaker wire from one set to the other set of speakers and then repeating the listening experience. As i mentioned in another post literally all my cd's sound terrible now, thats how apparent the difference is between old and new.

                              Im actually at a loss in terms of what is going on here as i had expectations of comperable sound, not a step backwards. I cannot discount possible there being an issue with my 802D's, however i find that most unlikely. I cannot fault the sound stage or the imaging of the 802D's as well as their low level externsion in the bass department.

                              Maybe i just prefer the sound of the 801 SIII's, being more familiar with them. The point is i cannot listen at the same volume levels i had previously enjoyed as the shrill sound makes it most unpleasant.

                              This being my experience and 2 cents worth, by all means i can only suggest you keep an open mind as we all perceive sound differently and derive different pleasure from different music types. Go ahead and listen them , but keep in mind all the variables that can influence the sound quality as mentioned in Kal's post.

                              Rudi

                              ;x(

                              I´ve not had both speaker in the same room at the same time, but for some reason the midrange is harsh on the newer 800 series. I almost fell in the trap of new and modern speakers. I went to town, spent hours listening to loads of high-end speakers for almost 4 years from Danish System audio explorer, wilson audio, dynoaudio you name it, and i ended up the an ugly pair pf Tandberg studio monitor that blew me away, and on top of that I´m modifying my B&W 801 series 80!

                              Comment

                              • wettou
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • May 2006
                                • 3389

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Antonkk
                                I was surprised to see so much negative comments regarding 802D in my recent Matrix 801 vs 802D thread. Is it THAT bad?
                                "The 802D i find the sound rather brittle almost piercing to the ears. Just about all of my cd's now sound awfull."
                                " listening fatigue on treble is certainly my experience too."
                                " 802D sound harsh, out of control, bass is not that good. sad really."
                                All this on THIS forum, not from the usual B&W bashing crowd on audiogon or audioasylum. :roll:
                                Interesting I have three 802D and love them I went to listen to 802Di and did not hear much difference.

                                On the other hand the 805Di are superb
                                Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                Comment

                                • Pedro
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2006
                                  • 303

                                  #17
                                  It´s a matter of taste and what type of music the listener is going to hear. For rock metal and industrial music there´s no other better option in the entire BW series than the 801 (matrix, nautilus or diamond). For Jazz and classic 802´s could be wonderful suited, coz they are more revealing and not so forgiven.

                                  As said before, the 801 project will be the most warm, forgiven, balanced, punchy bass speaker ever ;x(

                                  Comment

                                  • aarsoe
                                    Senior Member
                                    • May 2004
                                    • 795

                                    #18
                                    I have had both mentioned speaker - in fact I still have my 802D's.
                                    I can tell you first hand that when I got the 802D's I initially got really poor sound coming from them.
                                    To make a long story short it was all down to finding an amplifier that did match. The one I had used on my 801's did not do the job on the 802D's. Far from it.
                                    One easy way to identify it is if the 802D will sound better the higher the volume is cranked. What I experienced was that most amplifiers would make it sound extremely top heavy until volume was so high that there was enough current to drive the bass section of the 802Ds.
                                    So my advise is to run down to your nearest dealer and borrow something that is know to work with the 802Ds.
                                    So something like Classe, Mcintosh, Krell - and see how the performance is. Remember that you should most likely also borrow a preamp to be certain that the Rotel don't influence the result.

                                    My advise for all others are don't ever break the chain if your happy with your setup, as you will spend huge amounts of time and money before you are back to something you like again.. :-)

                                    Comment

                                    • aarsoe
                                      Senior Member
                                      • May 2004
                                      • 795

                                      #19
                                      Maybe I should add that I did try my 802D's with a Rotel 1095 bi-amped (2 channels to each side) and that did NOT work at all. So unless you have a 1090, I don't think there is any Rotel gear that can handle more current..

                                      Comment

                                      • SoundEngine355
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Feb 2008
                                        • 313

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Antonkk
                                        I was surprised to see so much negative comments regarding 802D in my recent Matrix 801 vs 802D thread. Is it THAT bad?


                                        "The 802D i find the sound rather brittle almost piercing to the ears. Just about all of my cd's now sound awfull."

                                        " listening fatigue on treble is certainly my experience too."

                                        " 802D sound harsh, out of control, bass is not that good. sad really."


                                        All this on THIS forum, not from the usual B&W bashing crowd on audiogon or audioasylum. :roll:
                                        Well the 802D/801D/800D all have the same Tweeter/Midrange and crossover, so they should all sound the same, only different is the bass output.

                                        I've listen to the Matrix series before, very nice.

                                        Out of control bass? Sounding Harsh? Not from the 800 series... (IMO)

                                        Cheers

                                        SE
                                        SoundEngine355

                                        -------------------
                                        [Music] B&W 800D | Classe CDP202 +M400s | Velodyne DD15

                                        Comment

                                        • ac81017
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Aug 2006
                                          • 175

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by SoundEngine355
                                          Well the 802D/801D/800D all have the same Tweeter/Midrange and crossover, so they should all sound the same, only different is the bass output.

                                          I've listen to the Matrix series before, very nice.

                                          Out of control bass? Sounding Harsh? Not from the 800 series... (IMO)

                                          Cheers

                                          SE
                                          Bass is a matter of taste in both Matrix and 800D series, I like live music, I play both bass and guitar, my bonus when it comes to hifi and sound is that I have absolut perfect pitch. I like the 12inch bass in an enclosed box because with the right amp and cables it can hit you hard and tight, it´s not easy to get a 12inch bass to play hard and tight. Anything smaller than a 12inch doesn´t sound sounds a bit week or struggle to hit a tone below a G without over powering the driver. As i said it´s a matter of taste ;-)

                                          Comment

                                          • windshear
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Dec 2004
                                            • 243

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by ShadowZA
                                            Rudi, from your system specs as described in your profile it seems that you are using Rotel gear. Things might very well sound different (whichever way it goes) if the gear used was let's say Classe', Krell or McIntosh, etc. Source players, too, can make a difference. Of course, what is of vital importance is that what you prefer is what is right for you. :T
                                            My profile is a bit out of date. However the amplifier is a Rotel RB1090, so it does have a fair amount of kick behind it. My processor is an Onkyo PR SC5507 and yes i do feel that is a weak link in the system, however there is nothing out there that does everything like this unit can. I did notice when changing to this processor from my Rotel the sound was a bit brighter, which i tried to put down to it being new and not "run in".

                                            I found out the 802D's have new tweeters in. Apparently the previous owner insisted the agent put in the older Nautilus tweeters. When i purchased them, they reinstalled the diamond tweeters, so im hoping they need more hours on them to smooth out.

                                            Comment

                                            • Kal Rubinson
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Mar 2006
                                              • 2109

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by ac81017
                                              Bass is a matter of taste in both Matrix and 800D series, I like live music, I play both bass and guitar, my bonus when it comes to hifi and sound is that I have absolut perfect pitch. I like the 12inch bass in an enclosed box because with the right amp and cables it can hit you hard and tight, it´s not easy to get a 12inch bass to play hard and tight. Anything smaller than a 12inch doesn´t sound sounds a bit week or struggle to hit a tone below a G without over powering the driver. As i said it´s a matter of taste ;-)
                                              It is, equally, a matter of room acoustics and placement.
                                              Kal Rubinson
                                              _______________________________
                                              "Music in the Round"
                                              Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                              http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                              Comment

                                              • ac81017
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Aug 2006
                                                • 175

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                It is, equally, a matter of room acoustics and placement.

                                                :T

                                                Funny you should say that about placement, I sit in a marked area for best stereo seperation, my 801s are postioned 1.45m apart, raised 23.5cm, 16cm away from the wall for bass control and i can´t remember the offset angel of the top unit. I have tested and tested until I´ve found a good balance, on cd recording can be light and soft, another can be a bit rough and heavey so my positioning is all about obtaining a good balance. The acoustics in my upstairs living room is to open and when I clap my hands there´s an odd echo. I have a downstairs living which I´m very slowly renovating, it´s 9 x 5m but my listning area will be ca 5x5m. I will have a home theatre there with infinity Kappa 8 as front, pair of kappa 6 as centre and kappa 5 as rear. I don´t b&W 800 or matrix would do as good job as Infinity.

                                                :T

                                                Comment

                                                • ShadowZA
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                  • 1098

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by windshear
                                                  My profile is a bit out of date. However the amplifier is a Rotel RB1090, so it does have a fair amount of kick behind it. My processor is an Onkyo PR SC5507 and yes i do feel that is a weak link in the system, however there is nothing out there that does everything like this unit can. I did notice when changing to this processor from my Rotel the sound was a bit brighter, which i tried to put down to it being new and not "run in".

                                                  I found out the 802D's have new tweeters in. Apparently the previous owner insisted the agent put in the older Nautilus tweeters. When i purchased them, they reinstalled the diamond tweeters, so im hoping they need more hours on them to smooth out.
                                                  Here's an idea: If you find yourself in Cape Town on business, holiday, or whatever, feel free to pop in (bringing some of your own familiar source material with you). We can play your material on my system and then analyse any differences in sound that you may find compared to your setup. It's a longshot as my equipment is different, but as I also have 802D's it could help.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • windshear
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Dec 2004
                                                    • 243

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by ShadowZA
                                                    Here's an idea: If you find yourself in Cape Town on business, holiday, or whatever, feel free to pop in (bringing some of your own familiar source material with you). We can play your material on my system and then analyse any differences in sound that you may find compared to your setup. It's a longshot as my equipment is different, but as I also have 802D's it could help.
                                                    Thanks for the offer. Today i decided i was going to get to the bottom of something at least. I took one song , played it a few times between the 801 SIII and the 802D. I really liked the 801 SIII's sound . I then repeated this process but swopped out my Onkyo PRSC 5507 and used my old Rotel RSP 1068. I literally fell off the chair what i heard. The Rotel brought the music alive on the 802D's, compared to the Onkyo it literally sounded like a different mix. However here comes the catch 22, with the Rotel the 801's sounded tubby , slow, bloated and the Onkyo a lot better.

                                                    All in all the Rotel does give a smoother, warmer sound that definatly compliments the 802D's and the Onkyo does not. What have i learned...... im too embarressed to say. Suffice to say until i know where i stand , i now have an open mind regarding the 802D's however am a little cynical now regarding finding a match on a hit an miss basis.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JargonGR
                                                      Member
                                                      • Feb 2009
                                                      • 95

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by SoundEngine355
                                                      Well the 802D/801D/800D all have the same Tweeter/Midrange and crossover, so they should all sound the same, only different is the bass output.

                                                      I've listen to the Matrix series before, very nice.

                                                      Out of control bass? Sounding Harsh? Not from the 800 series... (IMO)

                                                      Cheers

                                                      SE

                                                      Hold on a sec! I think it is well known that the 800Ds have a much better crossover than the 802Ds. How did you come up with the "same" crossover across all three?

                                                      Comment

                                                      • BWzes03
                                                        Member
                                                        • Oct 2005
                                                        • 96

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by windshear
                                                        Thanks for the offer. Today i decided i was going to get to the bottom of something at least. I took one song , played it a few times between the 801 SIII and the 802D. I really liked the 801 SIII's sound . I then repeated this process but swopped out my Onkyo PRSC 5507 and used my old Rotel RSP 1068. I literally fell off the chair what i heard. The Rotel brought the music alive on the 802D's, compared to the Onkyo it literally sounded like a different mix. However here comes the catch 22, with the Rotel the 801's sounded tubby , slow, bloated and the Onkyo a lot better.

                                                        All in all the Rotel does give a smoother, warmer sound that definatly compliments the 802D's and the Onkyo does not. What have i learned...... im too embarressed to say. Suffice to say until i know where i stand , i now have an open mind regarding the 802D's however am a little cynical now regarding finding a match on a hit an miss basis.
                                                        Imagine then, how much better it can sound with a dedicated stereo Rotel pre-amp like the RC-1082 or the RC-1090 that I have experience with...
                                                        The difference in stereo performance between the RSP-1098 and the RC-1090 is nothing less than a revelation. (my 2 euro cents, since this is all about sound/taste, its subjective and not objective...) I found that the RC-1090 has really opened up my stereo system like no other component yet. Really wide open and spacious stereo fields, mids are amazing, lows are strong, punchy and in control, and the highs are never harsh (listening on N802 with a RB-1080 on each speaker).

                                                        Comment

                                                        • ac81017
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Aug 2006
                                                          • 175

                                                          #29
                                                          Tomorrow/today I will be testing the new B&W 803Di, I´m going to be very open minded and give them a chance! I´ll take some of my cds with me and hope for the best.

                                                          I´m also thinking of changing from B&W 801 series 80 to 801 series 3? I have found a pair for an ok price. first I´ll test the 803di and see what happens ;-)

                                                          Comment

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