downgrading almost complete

[Sanman023]

Hello All,

I know these forums are all about upgrading to better equipment and speakers. But for the past year, I have been selling off my equipment (Everything from Krell, PS Audio, Cary, etc.) trying to downgrade. The reason is that I do not have the time to spend with all these toys but I do enjoy watching movies with my family. Eventhough I still have a passion for high end audio, which explains why I kept all my B&W speakers (N802, HTM1, 2 pairs of N804, DS8s, etc). I am looking for a cheap receiver that can handle all these new processing formats and amplification from my PS3 source. Because of my budget, the receiver I'm thinking about is a used Denon 3808. I hear that underpowering speakers can harm these speakers, don't know how true that is but I need your thought and recommendations. So it goes like this, PS3 to AVR to speakers, that's all I'm looking for. Sorry for the long background.

Thanks

[MikeFL52]

How about going with the Emotiva stuff? XPA5+XPA2 or UPA5+UPA2 with the UMC1. I don't think these would come to much more than the Denon 3808 and would give you some flexibility.

[Orb]

I have tried the Denon 3808 with 803s and it sort of sounded lifeless, the Onkyo905 was quite a bit better (just for a comparison not suggesting you should go that route).

As mentioned could consider Emotiva, or what about the best Harman Kardon?
Even here in Europe the HK top products are winning awards and have a very good dynamic measurement even down to 1ohm.

Worth a thought anyway.
Cheers
Orb

[audioqueso]

N802... well, RaceCarDriver is the only member I recall that ran his N802's off of a Yamaha receiver for a while. If he reads this, I think he can comment more about driving those speakers with just a receiver.

My recommendation is an Arcam AVR600. It's just a blind recommendation. I have a Marantz SR7002 AV receiver. It's a really nice unit, but I KNOW it is not enough power for your N802's because it's barely enough for my N805's. I have Emotiva's UMC-1/XPA-5 combo. Though it will be enough power, and it sounds great, the processor is unbarely buggy. I'm waiting for one more firmware update (supposedly this month). If it resolves most of the problem, then I would recommend the Emotiva combo. If it remains buggy, then I'm trying out the Arcam AVR600 as it's heralded so greatly in so many reviews.

[scanido]

I agree with audioqueso in that you should really consider the Arcam AVR600. I think i read somewhere on a review where that receiver potentially drove a set of 802D's. From my last readings of this receiver, most of the bugs have been resolved from the last update.

I am actually considering the AV888 as my next Pre which is a derivative of the AVR600.

[wettou]

N802... well, RaceCarDriver is the only member I recall that ran his N802's off of a Yamaha receiver for a while. If he reads this, I think he can comment more about driving those speakers with just a receiver.

Yamaha makes great receivers very musical:T

[Antus]

i listened to Marantz 6004 paired with 803S, Htm4s, and 804s. although they make sound, they sound inferior to CM9, CMC2, CM5 with Classe Pre/pro plus 5100 amp.

I think amp section is usually the weakest link within a receiver. but B&W speakers require high quality amp. using reciever will make the lack of quality amp more noticable.

i would suggest u use some less expensive brand, for example, Parasound, Arcom, and use pre/pro like Marantz 8003 or Rotel 1570.

[KyaDawn]

My recommendation is that if you go with the Denon 3808, that you also buy a higher powered three channel amp for your N802s and HTM1. The Denon will offer you all the surround processing that you need, and might provide just enough power for your surrounds and rears, particularly if you bi-amp the N804s, but I think 130wpc is too weak for the N802s and probably the HTM1.

[audioqueso]

Because of my budget, the receiver I'm thinking about is a used Denon 3808...

Sorry, I made a recommendation and didn't even catch this line. So about $1000 MAX, right? The Arcam is out of the question then. So is the Emotiva combo. In this case, I think the best option really is to ask someone who has experience running a full HT setup that consisted of 802's.

[AV-OCD]

Hello All,

I know these forums are all about upgrading to better equipment and speakers. But for the past year, I have been selling off my equipment (Everything from Krell, PS Audio, Cary, etc.) trying to downgrade. The reason is that I do not have the time to spend with all these toys but I do enjoy watching movies with my family. Eventhough I still have a passion for high end audio, which explains why I kept all my B&W speakers (N802, HTM1, 2 pairs of N804, DS8s, etc). I am looking for a cheap receiver that can handle all these new processing formats and amplification from my PS3 source. Because of my budget, the receiver I'm thinking about is a used Denon 3808. I hear that underpowering speakers can harm these speakers, don't know how true that is but I need your thought and recommendations. So it goes like this, PS3 to AVR to speakers, that's all I'm looking for. Sorry for the long background.

Thanks

If you don't listen to movies at high volumes, you may be able to get away with a 3808. Thankfully, these days there is less chance of damage to the speakers if you overdrive the amp in the AVR because the AVR will shut down (temporarily) if it is being asked to output more than it can. So be gentle with the volume control and if you find that you can't get the output you want from the AVR without it protecting its self, then add a more powerful amp for the front three channels. The separate amp doesn't necessarily have to be higher wattage than the Denon, it just needs to be able to handle low impedances. The heavier the better as that means the power supply will be up to the task.

[Sanman023]

Thank you all for your suggestions. I will do research on the avr's that you guys mentioned and will report back on what I decide. I'm a little older now and with a family, I'm okay with the moderate volumes. I just wanted to make sure that the nautilus will be okay with a receiver pushing it and that it has dts ma...

[Orb]

Tim,even without reference levels I doubt it.
Remember I used a 3808 with the 803s and it was not a good idea in terms of the sound feeling dynamic, was very lifeless even at lowish levels.

TBH and I really do not understand why people ignore the top Harman Kardon receivers/AVRs, also consider them as they have far superior output to the Denon 3808.
Their measurements for the latest products is quite impressive, and part of the reason they are winning awards over here in Europe where its not even a major player and Harman do not advertise.
If I was after a reasonable budget product and Emotiva was on the list, definitely would also include HK.

Cheers
Orb

[boarder1995]

I'm running an Elite receiver and Sunfire amp with my 803D mains and 805S rears. I did run them off the receiver power for a while when I was between amps. It wasn't bad, but not inspiring either. This Elite receiver doesn't have the ICE amps. I'd recommend something like this little receiver with some external power, at least for your fronts, since those are the onse getting hammered with big sound in movies and obviously in 2 channel music. This can all be had for right at $1k.
VSX23 Elite and perhaps a 2 or 3 channel Emo amp, or any decent powered 2 or 3 channel unit.

[AV-OCD]

Tim,even without reference levels I doubt it.
Remember I used a 3808 with the 803s and it was not a good idea in terms of the sound feeling dynamic, was very lifeless even at lowish levels.

TBH and I really do not understand why people ignore the top Harman Kardon receivers/AVRs, also consider them as they have far superior output to the Denon 3808.
Their measurements for the latest products is quite impressive, and part of the reason they are winning awards over here in Europe where its not even a major player and Harman do not advertise.
If I was after a reasonable budget product and Emotiva was on the list, definitely would also include HK.

Cheers
Orb

Could be that he doesn't care for the character of the sound of one AVR over another, I was simply trying to address the objective side of his question regarding power requirements and the possibility of speaker damage. Which I think is unlikely given the self-prortect mode built into every AVR these days.

[Sanman023]

You guys have been very helpful. Tim is absolutely right. My main objective is to get a cheap receiver that will not damage the speakers and also have the processing for the new formats. I've owned the Krell HTS7.1, (2) KSA250, and KAV1500 and I don't think any receiver can match that. I knew that the nautilus will give me hte same performance for years to come and I got rid of the krell because processor becomes out dated and the caps on the amps will have to be replaced. At this moment my time is more dedicated to my kids' soccer, swimming, gymnastic practice, etc. But I will eventually get back into things when my kids don't want to hang out with me anymore and think that we're uncool.

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

Why not an Emotiva XPA-3($600) to drive your fronts with a much less expensive receiver to drive your rears and use preamp outs to feed the XPA-3. This would be both affordable and drive your front speakers accordingly.

[Glenee]

Why not an Emotiva XPA-3($600) to drive your fronts with a much less expensive receiver to drive your rears and use preamp outs to feed the XPA-3. This would be both affordable and drive your front speakers accordingly.

DITTO. I would Second this Recommendation.

[sikoniko]

I'm running an Elite receiver and Sunfire amp with my 803D mains and 805S rears. I did run them off the receiver power for a while when I was between amps. It wasn't bad, but not inspiring either. This Elite receiver doesn't have the ICE amps. I'd recommend something like this little receiver with some external power, at least for your fronts, since those are the onse getting hammered with big sound in movies and obviously in 2 channel music. This can all be had for right at $1k.
VSX23 Elite and perhaps a 2 or 3 channel Emo amp, or any decent powered 2 or 3 channel unit.

I enjoyed the Elite receiver for ht purposes when I heard it a year ago last January. I don't care for them for 2 channel music though.

[AV-OCD]

I enjoyed the Elite receiver for ht purposes when I heard it a year ago last January. I don't care for them for 2 channel music though.

Just curious, what is it that distinguishes an enjoyable HT sound from and enjoyable music sound for you?

[Race Car Driver]

I have not had an amp in my system in several years now actually.
I have used 2 different Yamaha receivers to power several different systems, all which have revolved around my N802s.

In my rather small living room of 15x16x8 I have had ZERO issues with the receivers being able to drive these speakers. This is coming from having Bryston 7B monos per N802 to a 7 channel receiver with 140-160? (forget) Yamaha watts per channel.

Off my reviever I have powered
Mains - N802s
Center- NHTM2, NHTM1, HTM2D, and I will be powering an HTM1D here in the next 2 weeks or so
Surrounds- SCM1, SCMS, Several variations of Klpisch and Polk Surrounds. Currently have Klipsch as I feel they are better at movies Than the B&Ws. I would like to try a pair of DS8s, however they are quite large for my locations Id need to cram them.

I have had subs from B&W 825, 855, and a few different Klipsch subs. At the moment I am actually running no sub.

Currently I have N802s, HTM2D, and small 4" Klipsch surrounds. The receiver has no issues powering the setup for movies, games or TV. If anyone has ever metered what kind of power you actually need to listen to a movie "normal" level you will see you will never need or use anywhere near 1000 watts. (or whatever number of watts you consider alot) There is quite a bit of bass now the way its setup, no sub. Do I know I am missing the low lows? Yep. But I can hear the receiver powering the N802s quite well for my listening envirement.

Do I wish I had a big multi channel amp or several monos? At times, however I can still turn it up to where its "too loud", play video game and rock out just fine. Its kind of nice not having to power up 3 amps to listen to the system.

Will I get more amps some day? Yes. Will it sound better? Yes. Is it just fine the way it is? For me, right now, yes.

The main reason I am powering everything off a receiver is for the last few years as HDMI has been going through its growing pains, receivers have been staying current with HDMI. Its cheaper to just use a receiver and keep current for the time being. I will be adding a sub again here this spring/summer after I take care of some other things.

[beden1]

I enjoyed the Elite receiver for ht purposes when I heard it a year ago last January. I don't care for them for 2 channel music though.

I like my Pioneer Elite receiver for HT, and also don't like it for music. HT is dynamic while music is fluid with subtle details. The Pioneer Elite doesn't get it for music.

[ClosetSciFiGeek]

RaceCarDriver makes a good point. If you are using speakers as efficient as Klipsch's(like him) then you don't need a big beefy amplifier. A receiver should do very well. If you are using less than efficient speakers in a larger room then an amplifier vice a receiver is a good direction to go.

[emig5m]

RaceCarDriver makes a good point. If you are using speakers as efficient as Klipsch's(like him) then you don't need a big beefy amplifier. A receiver should do very well. If you are using less than efficient speakers in a larger room then an amplifier vice a receiver is a good direction to go.

Not all the time.... My Cerwin Vega VS-150's where 102dB efficient at 1w/1m and they totally sucked on a receiver because of the ohm drops and current draw. The sound from a Carver TFM 35x to a Sony 100 watt AVR amp was night and day... They sounded instantly thin and bassless dropping down to a AVR.... and when a 15" woofer sounds thin and bassless something is wrong...lol. Hook the Carver back up (which was 350watts into 4ohms), speakers instantly come back to life!

Think ohm drops and current draw as important as watts and efficiency IMO.

[Sanman023]

Okay, so I picked up the 3808 today. For the fronts 804, center HTM1, surround side DS8S, surround back 804, two Velodyne DD18. I will leave the 802 out of the equation for now until I pick up a separate amp. I was not too disappointed. Yes it lacks the power and the punch, but thats because I got so use to the Krell. I was also tempted to get the yamaha for the 11.2 format but it was way out to my budget. Overall I'm happy with the setup.

[ryan.devry]

Glad your happy with the new gear..........I would definately look into the emotiva gear for the 802s..........Congrats tho!!!

[Orb]

Glad your happy with the new gear..........I would definately look into the emotiva gear for the 802s..........Congrats tho!!!

Or top HK product on an audition

http://www.thehomecinemacentre.co.uk/Downloads/HK990-Eisa-Award-2009.jpg

EISA award comes from I think 42 different publications in various european countries voting for products in different categories.
The HK990 won the Audio Amplifier 2009-2010, there is a different award for high end expensive amps.

Cheers
Orb

[AV-OCD]

Or top HK product on an audition

http://www.thehomecinemacentre.co.uk/Downloads/HK990-Eisa-Award-2009.jpg

EISA award comes from I think 42 different publications in various european countries voting for products in different categories.
The HK990 won the Audio Amplifier 2009-2010, there is a different award for high end expensive amps.

Cheers
Orb

Wow, that HK does look impressive. 200 watts RMS, 1.5KW of dynamic power and a number of other audiophile niceties, like the master/slave clock for the digital connection.

[ryan.devry]

Or top HK product on an audition
http://www.thehomecinemacentre.co.u...-Award-2009.jpg
EISA award comes from I think 42 different publications in various european countries voting for products in different categories.
The HK990 won the Audio Amplifier 2009-2010, there is a different award for high end expensive amps.


Wow.........Never knew they had something that hi-end.........It is only available in Europe tho right?

[Orb]

Or top HK product on an audition
http://www.thehomecinemacentre.co.u...-Award-2009.jpg
EISA award comes from I think 42 different publications in various european countries voting for products in different categories.
The HK990 won the Audio Amplifier 2009-2010, there is a different award for high end expensive amps.


Wow.........Never knew they had something that hi-end.........It is only available in Europe tho right?

Sadly that model I believe is only in Europe, and I really do not understand the logic behind that.
I just hope that maybe it exists in US but as a different model number, if it does should be their top model or close to it.
I know it received a fair amount of respect from the UK publications when they reviewed/measured it.

Found the review in Hifinews.
It measured as follows;
Sustained 8ohms/4ohms at 1%thd; 215w/350w
Dynamic Power 8/4/2/1ohms; 273w / 512w / 950w / 1.5kW
Output Impedence 20hz to 20kHz; 0.014 to 0.070ohm

They liked the sound and it received in Hifinews their Outstanding Product recommendation, it looks to be a great budget product if in the UK/Europe.
The measurements are pretty impressive as well, hence why it should be more than fine with the 80x speakers, but preferably an audition before purchase.
Let us know if you find a comparable US HK model if you decide to check it out in the future.

Cheers
Orb

[ryan.devry]

Got a reply back from HK. The HK990 will be available to the USA. Current release date was not available tho.....

[Orb]

Got a reply back from HK. The HK990 will be available to the USA. Current release date was not available tho.....

Wow, wonder why it was released in Europe 1st, but good to hear for those in USA its going to be there hopefully soon

Thanks for the heads up and cheers.
Orb

[style]

Hallo,

sorry but I dont can understand where you seee this gears so "fabulous" ,

in place of this HK I will go willmy personal go with a Yamaha Z7, Onkyo or Denon!

The new Onkyo processor with xlr I/O are in another level vs. the HK!
as receiver the Yamaha is my favorit: a denon can be a receiver is the Yahama dint will be available....
-----------------------------

for a 2 channel I prefer a "simply" Rotel.

I dont will spend nothing for a HK!!!!

Style

[Orb]

Hallo,

sorry but I dont can understand where you seee this gears so "fabulous" ,

in place of this HK I will go willmy personal go with a Yamaha Z7, Onkyo or Denon!

The new Onkyo processor with xlr I/O are in another level vs. the HK!
as receiver the Yamaha is my favorit: a denon can be a receiver is the Yahama dint will be available....
-----------------------------

for a 2 channel I prefer a "simply" Rotel.

I dont will spend nothing for a HK!!!!

Style

But what are you basing that upon?
You know the new HK measures as well as those you mentioned, has great reviews in Europe where HK is unknown, won the EISA award that involves 42 publications, and measures very well.
So what is not to like unless you heard the HK990 that I think is a new design for them.

Cheers
Orb

[quan325i]

I would get a used set of Cal Audio Labs 2500 on ebay (itemZ390177530649) for $3.1K and be done. I owned Yamaha DSPA1, Onkyo 805, Denon 5800 and HK AVR600 and none of them come close to this setup. for the money, I don't think there's a better bang for your bucks. I have the same set up driving a pair o f 801N right now. I'm not in any way affiliated with the seller.

QN

[style]

But what are you basing that upon?You know the new HK measures as well as those you mentioned, has great reviews in Europe where HK is unknown, won the EISA award that involves 42 publications, and measures very well.
So what is not to like unless you heard the HK990 that I think is a new design for them.

Hi Orb,
this is my PERSONAL taste. If a product won a Eisa, the pubblications a lot, only pro from every part....
but you know the criteria that lead a jury to choose one product over another?
every year there are journalists and experts who must choose one (1) product for each sector: it is not easy!
HK when producing amplifiers as the "citation" was a very solid and professional company...
NAD also produces devices that have won several prizes! and I trust to NAD do more than that of HK... the eyes when it wants its share :W
no, you're right. I have not heard the HK and I do not care either.
if you like No one ever no problem, I wish I had not. that's all simple.
democracy? ops:

@quan325i: of course money is not always is better!

Style

[Orb]

The point is Style that HK are not that known in Europe, do not heavily market over here, and still the product convinced 42 different publications.
Going by your reasoning it should not even had been considered...

If you still feel the same after you listen to it, then fair enough
Cheers
Orb

[SoundEngine355]

I have tried the Denon 3808 with 803s and it sort of sounded lifeless, the Onkyo905 was quite a bit better (just for a comparison not suggesting you should go that route).

As mentioned could consider Emotiva, or what about the best Harman Kardon?
Even here in Europe the HK top products are winning awards and have a very good dynamic measurement even down to 1ohm.

Worth a thought anyway.
Cheers
Orb

I ran a Denon 3808 via Classe M400's (RCA) using the B&W 800Ds! Sounded just fine for home theatre.

[Orb]

I ran a Denon 3808 via Classe M400's (RCA) using the B&W 800Ds! Sounded just fine for home theatre.

As a processor yeah could work (still not sure it is as good as higher spec-design receivers as a processor), but as an actual receiver and using its internal amps its worse than the Onkyo, which can be beaten by other dedicated stereo receivers (if ignoring multi) and by pre/pros and power amp.

I think the OP was discussing a receiver using its internal amps, not solely as a pro/pre.

Cheers
Orb

[Sanman023]

3808 - holding up well...or maybe the 804s are holding up well...

continuing with the downgrading trend, last night I hooked up the N802 to my old "DJ" set up. Technics 1210MG, Denon DN-X1500, one of those professional two channel QSC amp, result - not so bad...but not what I was use to...

[AV-OCD]

3808 - holding up well...or maybe the 804s are holding up well...

continuing with the downgrading trend, last night I hooked up the N802 to my old "DJ" set up. Technics 1210MG, Denon DN-X1500, one of those professional two channel QSC amp, result - not so bad...but not what I was use to...

Glad to hear that the change is going well over all.

If its not too much trouble, what is different about the sound with the modest electronics?

[Sanman023]

Hey AV-OCD,

I am a firm believer that speakers, placement, and room are most important. Everything else is up for debate. With that said, I miss being able to turn up the volume without distortion and knowing that my amplifiers can handle the speaker load. I don't know if this answers your question.

[AV-OCD]

Hey AV-OCD,

I am a firm believer that speakers, placement, and room are most important. Everything else is up for debate. With that said, I miss being able to turn up the volume without distortion and knowing that my amplifiers can handle the speaker load. I don't know if this answers your question.

We are on the same page. You left out just one thing. The quality of the recording.

I was just wondering if there were some subtlties to the sound between the high-end and modest front-end gear that you felt were different.

[Sanman023]

Yes, there's a difference, part of it is psycological after you drop X amount of money on equipment. =)

[AV-OCD]

Yes, there's a difference, part of it is psycological after you drop X amount of money on equipment. =)

You may know this already, but I'm doing something similar as you. I sold off my Classe SSP-800 and matching amp for a Denon AVR5308. I haven't heard huge differences between front end gear in the past, but looking back on it, I wish I had the Classe gear and my new Denon at the same time to compare. I *think* the Classe might have been smoother and more "analog" sounding, but I changed out speakers at the same time, so I don't know.

Unfortunately, my local dealers do not allow for in-home trials of gear, so I'm not sure how I would even go about finding out if the difference between the Classe and my Denon is real or imaginary. :roll: