B&W 803s with Rotel RB-1582

[mb225]

Agree with ya Stu
Yeah why I suggested them as well, their dynamic power works very well and many love the NAD amps and rightly so.

mb225, I do think though unless your totally stunned with the amp you listen to at your dealer then you will need to find 1 or 2 more that have B&W speakers but different amps you can listen to.
Otherwise you will very possibly get the upgrade itch.
For the Nad I would look to their upper models, just below and maybe if can afford their M series.
The new Arcam is well liked and usually sold at many B&W dealers, also Naim (recommend you listen to their integrated I mentioned) are at many B&W dealers.
But the Naim may require specific cables, which the dealer can fill you in on if is the case.

And depending how much access you have to dealers you got the list from earlier page.

Cheers
Orb

Thanks! I'm going to call my dealer tomorrow (he's not in today). He said he was going to try to find me a NAD to take home this weekend. BTW, the NAD M3 is within my budget; it's the Classe, Mac pricepoint that starts to hurt!!!

[stuofsci02]

Your are not listening your 803s, you are listening Dac Magic, 3-4 $ cables, Sony cd player. You do not even hear the real potential of the 803s. Buy decent equipments, cables.

I don't see how this kind of post is helpful.. People have a budget, and they need to spread that budget over what gives them the best performance. Telling someone that they aren't getting the full potential is like telling someone the sky is blue. No one is getting the full potential out of their gear. If I wanted full potential it would mean building a dedicated house for optimum sound at the very least.

I have always found the best money should be spent in the amplifier/pre-amp and the speakers (*edit* and source). Use a good quality (not necessarily expensive) set of interconnects and speaker cables.

If that combination does not get you the sound you are looking for, you need to change the speakers, pre, amp or source. If you feel you need to use cables to get the right sound, then you don't have the right base components.

Put the money into the parts that really matter.

[BBibber]

NAD and underpowered should not be used in the same sentence. :W

I never said that the NAD is underpowered! The fact I'm going to replace it, is because the unit is over 15 years old.

The unit is rated at 2x125W RMS but is no match for my Denon rated at 110W RMS per channel. Clipping power (maximum continuous power per channel) is rated at 160W and IHF dynamic power at 2x170 W.

In my feeling you can compare it with some 200W amps...

But then again, the 'power' of an amp and the 'listening experience' are 2 different things...

[stuofsci02]

I never said that the NAD is underpowered! The fact I'm going to replace it, is because the unit is over 15 years old.

The unit is rated at 2x125W RMS but is no match for my Denon rated at 110W RMS per channel.

Clipping power (maximum continuous power per channel) is rated at 160W and IHF dynamic power at 2x170 W.

And in my feeling you can compare it with some 200W amps...

But then again, the 'power' of an amp and the 'listening experience' are 2 different things...

Don't worry... I was not responding to your post, rather mb225 post #79..

[BBibber]

Hi mb225,

Since the NAD M3 is in your budget (3499 €), You could also try following combination form ATOLL:

2xATOLL AM200 (1230€ pp) or 2460 € (listed price)
1xATOLL PR 200 for 669€ (or PR300 1340€)

=> total of 3129 € (or 3800 € with PR 300)
(Of course I don't know about the availability and the pricing in the US)

I heard this combination this evening at my dealer with B&W 803S and believe me, with this combination I heard a complete different speaker (more warm, more detailed, more dynamic, ...). Music came to life. It's a configuration he usually recommends for 803D, 802D.

With this combination, you could really bring some nice audiophile equipment in your home at a reasonable price.

The sound is comparable with NAD but only 'more' and 'better' ...

As for cabling and interconnects, he's using a good quality cable as a standard configuration (not too expensive). Bi-wiring for the 803S is a must in his and my opinion.

This weekend I'm going to try the 2 ATOLL AM200 at my place...

[altanpsx]

Hi Altanpsx, I agree with you, I feel like I'm getting the full potential out of the 803s.

I looked up some of the equipment you're recommending. I think I might be getting in over my head! :E

Unfortunately, my budget has a limit. I can afford to do 1 big upgrade or a few little ones. Example, I can probably move up to a Mac and a little better interconnects/speaker cables. Or I can move up to really great cables. The cables you recommended would cost me about $10,000! :sos:

I can't do it all. So would I be better off spending money on 1 big upgrade or spreading it out on everything?

BTW, what to you think of a Bryston Amp/preamp?

Thanks!

Bryston would be o good choice, you will get tight bass, and clear mid range also very good highs, and you will feel the how big scene the 803s can create.

By the way I do not recommend you to change whole your setup in one step. I am just telling you, buy decent cables or amp or cd player. Your 803s is deserve better. If your budget is to tight for this time, wait for a period and save some more, and buy decent one. You do not have to buy it right now. If you can afford a one major upgrade right now, changing amp would be wise action IMO.

[altanpsx]

I don't see how this kind of post is helpful.. People have a budget, and they need to spread that budget over what gives them the best performance. Telling someone that they aren't getting the full potential is like telling someone the sky is blue. No one is getting the full potential out of their gear. If I wanted full potential it would mean building a dedicated house for optimum sound at the very least.

I have always found the best money should be spent in the amplifier/pre-amp and the speakers (*edit* and source). Use a good quality (not necessarily expensive) set of interconnects and speaker cables.

If that combination does not get you the sound you are looking for, you need to change the speakers, pre, amp or source. If you feel you need to use cables to get the right sound, then you don't have the right base components.

Put the money into the parts that really matter.

Actually it is different then saying the sky is blue.

Maybe I did not express myself clearly. All I am trying to say is, do not spread your money into lots of components, if you have this kind of speakers. Buying average cables, amps, source etc. does not take your system in a better sound. Buying decent components makes a great deal of improvement.

On the other hand, If you are going to use dac magic/oppo etc. for a source why are you buying 803s or 804s. You will always hear the capabilties of this average equipment. If your source will be this level of components, and if you planning to use mid level amp's, buying 8XX series B&W would be a waste of money IMO.

[mb225]

Hi mb225,

Since the NAD M3 is in your budget (3499 €), You could also try following combination form ATOLL:

2xATOLL AM200 (1230€ pp) or 2460 € (listed price)
1xATOLL PR 200 for 669€ (or PR300 1340€)

=> total of 3129 € (or 3800 € with PR 300)
(Of course I don't know about the availability and the pricing in the US)

I heard this combination this evening at my dealer with B&W 803S and believe me, with this combination I heard a complete different speaker (more warm, more detailed, more dynamic, ...). Music came to life. It's a configuration he usually recommends for 803D, 802D.

With this combination, you could really bring some nice audiophile equipment in your home at a reasonable price.

The sound is comparable with NAD but only 'more' and 'better' ...

As for cabling and interconnects, he's using a good quality cable as a standard configuration (not too expensive). Bi-wiring for the 803S is a must in his and my opinion.

This weekend I'm going to try the 2 ATOLL AM200 at my place...

Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be an ATOLL dealer anywhere near my home in the US. In fact, there doesn't seem to be many ATOLL dealers in the US! Sounds like a nice setup! Have fun listening this weekend!

[stuofsci02]

Actually it is different then saying the sky is blue.

Maybe I did not express myself clearly. All I am trying to say is, do not spread your money into lots of components, if you have this kind of speakers. Buying average cables, amps, source etc. does not take your system in a better sound. Buying decent components makes a great deal of improvement.

On the other hand, If you are going to use dac magic/oppo etc. for a source why are you buying 803s or 804s. You will always hear the capabilties of this average equipment. If your source will be this level of components, and if you planning to use mid level amp's, buying 8XX series B&W would be a waste of money IMO.

Well unfortunately without a source you will have no music.. So if the option is buy 803s and upgrade amp/pre and source later (when finances allow), that is my preference.

Also, I have no idea why you are ragging on OPPO as average. I am certain you have not even heard the BDP-83SE. It has be reviewed against some very fine high level SACD players from McIntosh and others and has faired very well. In fact the lesser version BDP-83 is the Lexicon BD-30 ($3500). So if my choice is $900 for a source or $7000 for something that sounds almost exactly the same (and I might only notice the difference if I have both units and AB test) then for me the choice is obvious.

I also have to ask why you have 803s. From the way you are describing what electronics you should have I would think you should have 802D at a minimum. I am not sure why you are wasting your equipment on 803S. You won't realize the full potential of your system until you get rid of that aluminum tweeter and go diamond..

[altanpsx]

Well unfortunately without a source you will have no music.. So if the option is buy 803s and upgrade amp/pre and source later (when finances allow), that is my preference.

This is what I am saying!!!!

Also, I have no idea why you are ragging on OPPO as average. I am certain you have not even heard the BDP-83SE. It has be reviewed against some very fine high level SACD players from McIntosh and others and has faired very well. In fact the lesser version BDP-83 is the Lexicon BD-30 ($3500). So if my choice is $900 for a source or $7000 for something that sounds almost exactly the same (and I might only notice the difference if I have both units and AB test) then for me the choice is obvious.

Because it is average. It is not bad, not superb. If you are using this level of equipment, no meaning to buy 8xx series B&W, and yes I listened it

I also have to ask why you have 803s. From the way you are describing what electronics you should have I would think you should have 802D at a minimum. I am not sure why you are wasting your equipment on 803S. You won't realize the full potential of your system until you get rid of that aluminum tweeter and go diamond..

I did not decrsibe my setup. I only wrote what I had(I assume you do not understand or you do not read), and trust me It barely reveals 803s. I had a criticism about your equipment, and if it is a problem for you, my mistake.

Answers in blue...

[mb225]

McIntosh MA6300 vs. Rotel RB-1582 + Rotel RC-1550

My dealer let me borrow a Mac MA6300 (100w/c) this past weekend. So I got to compare the MA6300 to the Rotel stack (RB-1582 200w/c). Both are solid-state. They are different wattage; but the Mac is more than double the cost of the Rotel stack!

My initial thoughts on the Mac were that it wasn't that much better than the Rotel. I did some critical listening; again with same exact cables (borrowed from my dealer) and songs switching back and forth. What I found:

-The Mac, although it's only 100w/c, produced the same lows as the Rotel @ double the wattage rating
- The Mac was a touch warmer sounding than the Rotel.
- The Mac was not as bright as the Rotel.
- The Mac was cleaner and clearer than the Rotel.

If I could sum up the Mac in one word, it would be "transparent". Meaning that with the Mac, it sounds like you are listening to your source and it is producing it exactly as the source creates the signal. With the Rotel, it sounded like it was adding or subtracting a little to different parts of the sound. I think you could "hear" the Rotel.

The detail that could be heard with the Mac was just phenomenal!

That said, I think going from the Rotel stack to a Mac stack would change the game. I think it would require me to upgrade everything but my speakers (B&W 803s). Also, I think there is a diminishing return going with the Mac. What I mean is, the Mac is better than the Rotel. But it's not night-and-day better. If I was scoring them I would say the Rotel is a 70 (out of 100) and the Mac is 80 (out of 100). If you don't have a budget at all, go with the Mac. Going from a Rotel stack to a Mac Stack means spending about 3-4 times as much. It loses a little on the value curve.

I know others think to own 803s and not have ultra-high-end electronics is a sin. But I could hear the differences between the CM9 and the 803s in the store when they were hooked up to the rotel gear. I'm sure I could hear them in my home and I'm really glad I went with the 803s over something like a CM9.

The 803s are awesome! The Rotel is good! The Mac was really good!

I think I figured out the bright sound of the Rotel, in next post.

[stuofsci02]

McIntosh MA6300 vs. Rotel RB-1582 + Rotel RC-1550

My dealer let me borrow a Mac MA6300 (100w/c) this past weekend. So I got to compare the MA6300 to the Rotel stack (RB-1582 200w/c). Both are solid-state. They are different wattage; but the Mac is more than double the cost of the Rotel stack!

My initial thoughts on the Mac were that it wasn't that much better than the Rotel. I did some critical listening; again with same exact cables (borrowed from my dealer) and songs switching back and forth. What I found:

-The Mac, although it's only 100w/c, produced the same lows as the Rotel @ double the wattage rating
- The Mac was a touch warmer sounding than the Rotel.
- The Mac was not as bright as the Rotel.
- The Mac was cleaner and clearer than the Rotel.

If I could sum up the Mac in one word, it would be "transparent". Meaning that with the Mac, it sounds like you are listening to your source and it is producing it exactly as the source creates the signal. With the Rotel, it sounded like it was adding or subtracting a little to different parts of the sound. I think you could "hear" the Rotel.

The detail that could be heard with the Mac was just phenomenal!

That said, I think going from the Rotel stack to a Mac stack would change the game. I think it would require me to upgrade everything but my speakers (B&W 803s). Also, I think there is a diminishing return going with the Mac. What I mean is, the Mac is better than the Rotel. But it's not night-and-day better. If I was scoring them I would say the Rotel is a 70 (out of 100) and the Mac is 80 (out of 100). If you don't have a budget at all, go with the Mac. Going from a Rotel stack to a Mac Stack means spending about 3-4 times as much. It loses a little on the value curve.

I know others think to own 803s and not have ultra-high-end electronics is a sin. But I could hear the differences between the CM9 and the 803s in the store when they were hooked up to the rotel gear. I'm sure I could hear them in my home and I'm really glad I went with the 803s over something like a CM9.

The 803s are awesome! The Rotel is good! The Mac was really good!

I think I figured out the bright sound of the Rotel, in next post.

Yep.. Diminishing returns is the name of of the audiophile game!.. You can spend $15,000 on speakers, pre, amp and source and it will sound great.. You can spend $5,000 on the same gear and get about %80 of the performance.. Is 20% more performance worth three times the price? That is what each person has to decide for themselves..

[Briz vegas]

Having done alot of this system tweaking the hard way over the past few years with brightness one of my early issues I would give the following advice.

1. Speaker positioning - experiment experiment experiment

2. Room treatment - spend time with this first. each time I added more treatment the improvements kept coming. First reflection points and bass traps all helped (nb house is timber with carpet on floor)

3. Power. get a sparky to install dedicated power to the hi fi - its relatively cheap to do as well.

4. Vibration control - Equipment platforms really help.

Once you have done this then you can start to play with the other aspects. Cables and equipment changes can help and some of the above might seem boring compared to new gear but THEY WORK. I am speaking as the owner of a Nordost Odin power cord amongst other expensive items. I am happy with what it does but given my time again I would have started with the above relatively inexpensive "tweeks" first.

As you can see from my profile I have done all the above to my system. This is my personal experience. I just got the order back to front and started with the electronics as per many of the suggestions on this thread.

[Briz vegas]

Maybe we should have a Wiki on this site with basics for setting up a 2 channel system and a HT system. While some will never agree on cables and the like I have not heard anyone knock things like room treatment, system positioning or dedicated power. Maybe it just needs to be a checklist with the basics.

[mb225]

Rotel Brightness adjusted
So after some testing I think I figured out what was causing my Rotel RB-1582 to sound "bright". I know we aren't supposed to talk about cables, but... The interconnects (MIT EXP1) are actually adjusting the signal and it's very revealing on my setup! These cables seem to make the Rotel sound harsh! So now I found a company online that let's you try a bunch of different cables to see what works for you. I need a more neutral cable, one that's not "playing" with the signal.

I'm keeping the Rotel, I just need new cables! :dance:

[mb225]

Having done alot of this system tweaking the hard way over the past few years with brightness one of my early issues I would give the following advice.

1. Speaker positioning - experiment experiment experiment

2. Room treatment - spend time with this first. each time I added more treatment the improvements kept coming. First reflection points and bass traps all helped (nb house is timber with carpet on floor)

3. Power. get a sparky to install dedicated power to the hi fi - its relatively cheap to do as well.

4. Vibration control - Equipment platforms really help.

Once you have done this then you can start to play with the other aspects. Cables and equipment changes can help and some of the above might seem boring compared to new gear but THEY WORK. I am speaking as the owner of a Nordost Odin power cord amongst other expensive items. I am happy with what it does but given my time again I would have started with the above relatively inexpensive "tweeks" first.

As you can see from my profile I have done all the above to my system. This is my personal experience. I just got the order back to front and started with the electronics as per many of the suggestions on this thread.

1. Speaker positioning - I already moved things around a bunch of times, I will try some more. :T

2. Room treatment - spend time with this first. each time I added more treatment the improvements kept coming. First reflection points and bass traps all helped (nb house is timber with carpet on floor)
"NB"? = No Basement? I have a basement; in a room with hardwood and area rugs.

3. Power. get a sparky to install dedicated power to the hi fi - its relatively cheap to do as well.
This could be done. What do you think about using a power conditioner? Like a Furman?

4. Vibration control - Equipment platforms really help.
Can you make some recommendations here? I'm new to this!

[Briz vegas]

I found brightness is often from nearby hard surfaces reflecting high frequencies so that they arrive at your ear too close to the original signal (not enough delay). I have noticed big improvements with substantial curtains on the wall behind me and the front wall (even though this is not supposed to matter as much) as my system runs across my rooms short axis - each time the sound was less bright with greater clarity. Bass traps brought the bass into the room and improved balance, reducing treble prominence.

I used a constrained layer platform and aircraft grade aluminium feet that couple the CD player to the rack (see photo). This significantly improves resolution and player performance. The constrained layer platform is 2 chunks of acrylic with a layer of artists foam (gatorboard) glued and clamped together.

Power conditioners can be detrimental to the sonic performance of amps. It can cost as little as a few hundred bucks to get a dedicated line installed. I would do that first. Power cords can help system performance as well but improving the power to your wall socket should be the first priority. I found that power strips and even extension cords can degrade sound if they are of poor quality. I removed my surge protecting power strip and use a simple quality Jas product.

[BBibber]

Hi, I just wanted to share my experience with 2 x ATOLL AM-200 in bridged mode in combination with the B&W 803S.

I started upgrading my HT system last year with a pair of B&W 803S as front speakers in combination with my existing Denon 3802 as pre-amp for my Font speakers and a NAD 216 THX as power amp. My CD player is a Denon DCD-2560EX (Denon reference model from the 90's).

The NAD 216 THX did a nice job but was clearly missing the power to make the 803S 'sing'.

As a first step I decided with my hifi dealer to update the power amp. As a first suggestion he gave me 2 ATOLL AM-200 in bridged mode (+/- 300 Watt RMS on 8 Ohm). He was very confident that I was going to keep them...

Some music samples:

Miles Daves – So What : very natural sound within the complete range. Miles was standing in my living room giving me a live performance...

Eric Clapton - Unplugged: extremely good dynamics in the guitar reproduction !!! + very good detail without losing the warm sound!

90's Dance music: power in the amp becomes extremely clear, very good dynamics in the lower frequencies -> remark: the units run warm on higher volumes

Bach : Choral N°06 BWV 147 "Jesu Bleibet Meine Freude" performed by Philip Bride with the Ensemble Instrumental De France : Fantastic in 1 word ! I heard instruments that I never noticed before. Even my wife who can not always share my audio enthusiasm became emotional when hearing this piece of music through the Atolls...

The difference with my NAD was like somebody removed a glass cover from my speakers.

PRO
- Good dynamics
- Good bass reproduction and very natural mid-range
- Very defined, controlled & aligned
- Lots of Power

CONTRA
- Needs 30 minutes "warming-up" : Mid-range is “present” during first 30 minutes, “metallic” sounding high tones (e.g. blues guitar from Clapton)
- runs warm on higher volumes -> foresee enough room around the unit(s) to allow some air flow
- power switch only accessible from behind, no stand-by (e.g. 5-12V DC trigger or auto standby) -> I made a power interrupter with a contactor connected to my Denon which is switching the Atolls on&off.


After this test I also connected a Classé CA-2100 which my dealer also gave my for a test. Compared with the ATOLL AM200 I was missing power and the Classé sounded 'sterile'. When I compared the price for the 2 Atoll units and the Classé CA-2100 the choice was easily made (and this time my wife supported me).

I also tested 2 NAD C 275BEE (in bridged mode) with comparable specs and price (50 € less expensive per unit). The NAD has also lots of power but seemed less detailed & controlled compared to the ATOLL.

After the test weekend I went back to the shop and bought 2 ATOLL AM-200 units with sequential serial number (now 3 months ago)

A future step will be to upgrade my HT amp with a network connection since my complete CD collection is digitalized in a lossless format.

One thing is for sure: I'm going to keep them !