Sanity check, please. Visited high end audio store...

[SeaNile]

I'm looking to upgrade my HT system from 600s3 B&W's to something in the 800 series. Just bought an Emotiva XPA-5 200Wx5 amp which I hope will work well with my upgrade. Well, I stopped by the local B&W dealer today and all of a sudden have the feeling if I don't have $30,000 to spend don't bother upgrading. I'm heavily leaning towards purchasing off of Agon when the right deal comes along. I listened to the 804s today and will listen to the 803s tomorrow. The guy from today basically said I need at least the new Rotel 250Wx5 amp or a Klasse (sp?), new pre/pro and god knows how much in MIT speaker cables with boxes to smooth out the sound, etc. Then came the $2000 remote that was needed, the 15K Runco PJ....I got turned off very quickly.

So, am I foolish to think adding 803s and the matching center speaker to my XPA-5 amp will make a significant improvement? I have quad wire, 12ga bought from a different high end audio place....will that work for these 800 series B&W's. I thought finding a killer deal on 803s and wiring it up would give me great sound. Now I feel like it's not possible unless spending upwards of 10K....double what I had anticipated.

Thanks for the suggestions.

--JK

[htsteve]

I'm looking to upgrade my HT system from 600s3 B&W's to something in the 800 series. Just bought an Emotiva XPA-5 200Wx5 amp which I hope will work well with my upgrade. Well, I stopped by the local B&W dealer today and all of a sudden have the feeling if I don't have $30,000 to spend don't bother upgrading. I'm heavily leaning towards purchasing off of Agon when the right deal comes along. I listened to the 804s today and will listen to the 803s tomorrow. The guy from today basically said I need at least the new Rotel 250Wx5 amp or a Klasse (sp?), new pre/pro and god knows how much in MIT speaker cables with boxes to smooth out the sound, etc. Then came the $2000 remote that was needed, the 15K Runco PJ....I got turned off very quickly.

So, am I foolish to think adding 803s and the matching center speaker to my XPA-5 amp will make a significant improvement? I have quad wire, 12ga bought from a different high end audio place....will that work for these 800 series B&W's. I thought finding a killer deal on 803s and wiring it up would give me great sound. Now I feel like it's not possible unless spending upwards of 10K....double what I had anticipated.

Thanks for the suggestions.

--JK

SeaNile,


Bummer about your visit to the dealer. I hope you have another one to go to. That really isn't very good treatment. A good dealer should try to accomodate a customers general budget. I certainly would expect them to show you options, including some more expensive ones. But going from $5000 to $40,000 is a big step, especially in this economy.

As to your performnace question (going from 600S3's to something in the 800's), that will be a LARGE improvement. I went from P5 towers (predecessors to todays 700 series) to an N804. BIG jump. Everything across the board was much improved. I was running them with a Rotel 1095 at the time. To stay in your budget area, you might need to get used. There are options/deals to be had, like these:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1232726503&/B-W-HTM-3s-Brand-New---Hundres

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1231175158

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1232726502

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1231298773&/B-W-htm3s---nautilus-sc-minty!


If you get something in the 800 series for your front three (use the 600;s as rears), you would have a great foundation.

If you get tower speakers, the center channel to get would be the HTM3S (current model) or an HTM1 (previous model). If you get 805's, the ideal center for that would be another 805. However, the HTM1 or HTM3S.


You've got a good amp, what is your pre-amp/processor?



Hope this helps.

[Glenee]

Hey Sea, You"ve got a very good amp. Don't listen to that B.S. Artist. Any of the new Pre-Pro, Recievers made today by any known manufacture will do 20 to 20 Flat. The main differences in sound are by the #1 Source, #2 Amp, #3 connectors, and last Speaker wire on the same set of Speakers. Expecially if the Pre/Rec is on Pass through. I've spent thousands chasing the holy grail and it was one expensive lesson 100,000.00. I am using the same Emotiva XPA-5 and it does just fine. I'm just waiting for those Bad-Ass Mono's to come out from emotiva.

[SeaNile]

The visit did bum me out. It was only 2 months ago I was watching my 126" carada screen with panny pt ax200u projector with the B&W 600's and loved my system. Now they paint the picture if you're not dropping 50K you can't have an enjoyable system. I will also admit I am looking for a good deal, weather it's the 804s or 803s if the $ is right I am jumping on the speakers. I'm comfortable with the B&W sound and speakers and feel confident in which ever speakers I may purchase. I'm kind of eyeing a pair of 803s but he is asking 3500. I could get a pair of 804s and htm1 (the smaller one) for 3000.
I'll be listening to the 803s and 802d tomorrow.

If I go the dealer route, what is a reasonable discount to expect? So far all I have been quoted is msrp, $4500 per speaker for the 803d and I believe $2250 for the 804s and $3000 for the 803s.

--JK

[joetama]

There is a lot of reasons home audio dealers are having/going to have a hard time of things. The big two locally have been facing serious trouble. One closed one of their two locations and the other went belly up and had to liquidate the entire inventory. (Which wasn't so bad for me.) But, overselling products out of a person's budget is one of the troubling issues. Instead of having/selling products that fit the person's budget and lifestyle they push the high end high end expensive expensive stuff. Most people find this rather disheartening and will actually tend to not buy once shocked by the prices. Mostly because they can't afford it and feel that not buying what is being sold isn't going to be worth it.

I was lucky enough for a while to deal with a guy who sold me what I wanted and was conscious of people's budget and needs. Unfortunately he left the ones store went to the other then left that one as well, because of them pushing the higher end stuff that not many were looking for nor could afford.


You would have a major improvement going from the 600S3 to the 800 Series. While spending a lot on the electronics and various other items can help make a system better it doesn't make or break a system the way the loudspeakers do.

[cdika17]

SeaNile, we seem to be in the same boat, ill be the one bidding against yah on Agon, lol, good luck and happy hunting.

[SeaNile]

SeaNile, we seem to be in the same boat, ill be the one bidding against yah on Agon, lol, good luck and happy hunting.

No worries, I am having a house built and won't be in till August which puts the theater in around Sept. I'm just looking for a deal to jump on. I love the 803d&center for $7900 on agon but it's out of my budget for now. Let me know if you have a bid/offer in on something. I am in no rush and don't want to jack up the price on you! I am pretty sure I am out of the 804s shopping and will only be looking at 803s, I will know for sure tomorrow.

--JK

[cdika17]

No worries, I am having a house built and won't be in till August which puts the theater in around Sept. I'm just looking for a deal to jump on. I love the 803d&center for $7900 on agon but it's out of my budget for now. Let me know if you have a bid/offer in on something. I am in no rush and don't want to jack up the price on you! I am pretty sure I am out of the 804s shopping and will only be looking at 803s, I will know for sure tomorrow.

--JK

Well there will be no bidding wars, I am looking as high as the 805's right now, i too am starting from scratch. Im looking to get preamp/pro, amp, speakers/sub, pj, screen, conditioner and all that costs as much as my car, lol.

[Glenee]

Sea any of 800 series are very nice speakers and are something you can build a system around to last until your next pair later on. Speakers are the most important piece in any HT/2-CH system. Just be patience I think there are some good deals just around the corner. I am not talking about us B&W Lovers. I'm talking about people who bought a system just to fill a slot in there living room because a friend had one. The economy will make them have to make a choice of their luxury items sooner or later and it will be his Big Ass Bass Boat. In my case the boat would have to go cause I love my electronics. Just got out of ReHab (Elec.Toys for Big boys) Told them what they wanted to hear. Promised to never have anything to do with electronics again. Went straight to the store and bought some new stuff. All I can say is all Rehab Programs do not Bat 100%. So Be It.

[William]

I have a Emotive XPA-5 running 803D's, HTM2D, and 804's. It sounds fantastic and drives them effortlessly. I can listen to 5.1 music at well over 90dB average for hours and the amp runs cool to the touch. I'm considering buying a 2nd XPA-5 to bi-amp not because it will make much (if any) difference but because the XPA-5 is such a steal. Also can't wait for the XMC-1 processor.

Speakers matter much more than the amp (or any other audio component) so spend as much as you can on the speakers and if you feel the need you can upgrade to a "named brand" high end amp later.

[bigburner]

Hi JK,

I reckon that you can achieve a wonderful sound without spending the sort of money that your local B&W dealer was suggesting. It just takes a bit of time, research, experimentation, trial and error, and luck.

Having said that, I believe that the best value for money is achieved by upgrading your speakers.

I would leave expensive cables and interconnects until the point where you are close to perfection and are seeking that 0.1% improvement.

Nigel.

[dknightd]

Your salesperson doesn't get it. They are trying to hit a home run, when four singles would be just as effective. Your amp is probably fine with 803.
On the other hand, maybe he is trying to save you money by talking you out of buying anything.
I don't know if you need 803 for HT, but they sure are nice for music. I guess it depends on what you want.

I don't know why the salesperson was trying to sell you a new projector at the same time. Certainly you can upgrade audio without upgrading video.

[Sounder]

Sounds like you are in Minneapolis like me. The local dealer is a snob. He doesn't think a CD player or a turntable should cost under $2k. If you don't spend 15% to 20% of your budget on cables, you shouldn't even buy the speakers.

I call that rubbish. Your emotiva has plenty of power to drive either 803 or 804. You can get good speaker cables for very good value, with a little shopping around. Since I don't have Cat cables, I can't tell you on the forum what I got. Anyway, I have 9 NTs, and Emo amp and Emo pre/pro, and some great cables that cost well under $500. The 9NTs are very similar to Nautilus 804. They sound great.

If you are looking for a reasonable budget, I would suggest the 803s speakers as a good compromise between 804 and 803d. Get one of the matching center speakers. Keep the Emo amp. Buy some decent speaker cables (if you don't already have good ones). And get a Harmony programmable remote for $250. You will be a VERY happy camper, and will have spent well under $10k.

[Dmm53]

I've owned the 803S for two years now and can't be happier. I originally had the 805S and thought they were terrific as well. They just were lacking in the mid range. I am driving my 803S with a MAC 352, but any quality amp of 150 watts or more will do fine. I originally had a Rotel RB1080 driving them and they sounded a bit thin.

I've been at this hobby for 30 years. Unfortunately, it's hard to find an honest and knowledgeable salesperson. Take heed, they do exist!

[SeaNile]

I have had a chance to listen to the speakers I wanted to this week. As I mentioned before, I really wanted to like the Klipsch RF 83's (or any other RF speaker) because I know they are very efficient, loud, clear and relatively inexpensive. Well no matter what Klipsch I listened to the B&W speakers sounded better to me. This was across the board comparing any Klipsch, like the RF 83 to the B&W 804s, etc. I listened to the B&W 804s and 803s and declined the offer to listen to the 803d (i have to draw the line somewhere!!). I have a large room, 40x21 and will be placing the setup across the 21' section. The 804s sounded great, laid back, tight, smooth and all the other things we associate with the B&W sound. They sound so alive it's fantastic. The 803s were more powerful in the bass dept. Aside from the mid bass/bass I thought they sounded very similar to the 804s. I'd be very happy with the 804s but I am wondering if I should go with the 803s do to the larger cabinet, volume and bass...would it fill the room better is what I am thinking. I will get the matching center as well, the larger version if given the choice. I do have a powered Paradigm sub which would make up for the lack of bass if I go with the 804s.

All of these speakers sound great and all of a sudden I am trying to think logically with my budget. The 804s are pretty common on Agon, 803s are going for a little over $3000 and the 803d are still too expensive for me. For me, unless the size of the room dictates I "need" the 803s I am leaning towards the 804s. I've found a few 804s and centers for 3000 for the package.

Thoughts?

John

[Dmantis]

Hello,
I just want to give you some general advise when building or upgrading any system.
You have a large room so a system that can perform in such a room. the 804's should be fine as long as you have a really good subwoofer or 2. I'm wondering why you want to upgrade? What do you feel your current system is doing or not doing for yeah? I wonder if there are other things in your system or room that can be improved to make your overall experience better? Better sub and a Proper setup usually really improves ones system.
Think about the room. You might need some better setup or treatments to make that room sound better. The room is usually the biggest problem with any system. Once that corrected, then upgrading becomes much more easy.
Have you listened to the Cm series? I have and was shocked on performance vs the 800 series. I actually liked them better for movies. They are fantastic. They do have a new cm9 which I have not heard yet but really want to. I listened to the CM7's vs the 804's and I liked the cm7's better. This was running off Rotel gear in a dedicated theater room. These may save you a lot of money and you may really like them.

Upgrading wire doesn't yield the performance some my think. The first thing you need with wire is the proper guage for the length they will be. A good Cl3 grade audio wire will do just fine. Companies like Beldon and Liberity sell excellent speaker wire and sound fantastic. You can get into higher end wire and spend a ton of cash but unless you really take your time and listen to each and every brand in your system, you maybe wasting your money. This money can be spent on other parts of the system which will yield better results. There is no substitute for good quality wire but some companies get out of hand. I don't have a problem with high end wire, I own a lot of it myself. I also have tested so many brands in ABCDE type shootouts and have heard differences. But Cables are something that once you use a properly terminated and is the correct cable for that job, you really don't get much benefits vs price when you keep trying to get better, some may not agree but with my own personal findings, this is true from my point of view.

A good dealer will spec out a system to your needs. If that dealer you went to spec'd out that system there may have been your needs. Going into High end is expensive especially when buying all new. Used will save you a ton of cash. But you also maybe looking in the wrong place.

[SeaNile]

I visited this same store several years ago when putting together my first system. I was looking for a projector (knew I wanted the PAnny pt ax200U for about 1300), and then a receiver and the 5 B&W 600 series speakers for the audio. This particular store was the only local one carrying B&W. So I go into the store already knowing what I wanted and wanted to listen to a few more speakers, especially the B&W's again. Well the first thing the salesman started with was a $2500 remote. We didn't even get to talk speakers, amps, it went immediately to "well you need this remote to control the equipment." I didn't even get to listen to the speakers and I was being sold a $2500 remote and being told that no projector under $10,000 is even worth considering. So this week I found myself in the same position, needing to listen to 800 series B&W's and going to this local store. I figured I was prepared, only wanting to buy front B&W's. Same crap....I was being sold the music management system, MIT cables, etc.

I'm in sales as well, and this store/person missed every step in the process. Not once did he care about how I am going to use the system, budget, etc. I really can't stand that place!

All I want is fantastic sound to fill a 40x21' room with the theater going across the 21' section. I have the amp, need to buy projector, pre/pro and speakers. Pathetic as it is here is how my system is used (old PJ had 100hrs use in 9 months). 95% of the real watching/listening is done while watching a Pink Floyd, Jimmy Buffett, David Gilmour, Roger Waters, Peter Gabriel concert dvd. I like it crystal clear, and loud. I want to feel like I am AT the concert. So, let's be fair here, Jimmy Buffett is no opera singer, great entertainer yes, great singer no. So I am in this store trying to imagine Jimmy Buffett "needing" a 15K Runco PJ, 1500 cables, etc. It's just not what I need. One could make a good argument for NOT spending the $ on B&W and go with Klipsch RF 83's. Would be a lot cheaper and I doubt Jimmy would mind.

I really want a more fuller, cleaner sound than my current 603's offer. They seem to struggle when pushed and I am hoping the 800 series, being a bigger speaker with better components will sound better. I will admit, I know nothing about room acoustics, treatments, etc. This new room will be a finished room with 9' ceilings and single drywall. The system will be set in the far side of the room so the right speaker would be close to a corner (as would be right rear) and the left side would be in the open area.

--JK

[htsteve]

JK,

Feel free to call B&W directly. They are protective of their brand, and if a dealer isn't doing their job, I'm sure they want to know about it.

[Mig17]

Hello,
I just want to give you some general advise when building or upgrading any system.
You have a large room so a system that can perform in such a room. the 804's should be fine as long as you have a really good subwoofer or 2. I'm wondering why you want to upgrade? What do you feel your current system is doing or not doing for yeah? I wonder if there are other things in your system or room that can be improved to make your overall experience better? Better sub and a Proper setup usually really improves ones system.
Think about the room. You might need some better setup or treatments to make that room sound better. The room is usually the biggest problem with any system. Once that corrected, then upgrading becomes much more easy.
Have you listened to the Cm series? I have and was shocked on performance vs the 800 series. I actually liked them better for movies. They are fantastic. They do have a new cm9 which I have not heard yet but really want to. I listened to the CM7's vs the 804's and I liked the cm7's better. This was running off Rotel gear in a dedicated theater room. These may save you a lot of money and you may really like them.

Upgrading wire doesn't yield the performance some my think. The first thing you need with wire is the proper guage for the length they will be. A good Cl3 grade audio wire will do just fine. Companies like Beldon and Liberity sell excellent speaker wire and sound fantastic. You can get into higher end wire and spend a ton of cash but unless you really take your time and listen to each and every brand in your system, you maybe wasting your money. This money can be spent on other parts of the system which will yield better results. There is no substitute for good quality wire but some companies get out of hand. I don't have a problem with high end wire, I own a lot of it myself. I also have tested so many brands in ABCDE type shootouts and have heard differences. But Cables are something that once you use a properly terminated and is the correct cable for that job, you really don't get much benefits vs price when you keep trying to get better, some may not agree but with my own personal findings, this is true from my point of view.

A good dealer will spec out a system to your needs. If that dealer you went to spec'd out that system there may have been your needs. Going into High end is expensive especially when buying all new. Used will save you a ton of cash. But you also maybe looking in the wrong place.

I agree with dmantis
I really want to upgrade my Rotel power amps with Krell showcase 5 channel

The used price on Audiogon is quite comfortable to reach around 2400 $
but I am really scared of buying second hand electronics ... ;x(

[DM3000 Owner]

It's just not what I need. One could make a good argument for NOT spending the $ on B&W and go with Klipsch RF 83's. Would be a lot cheaper and I doubt Jimmy would mind.

I really want a more fuller, cleaner sound than my current 603's offer. They seem to struggle when pushed and I am hoping the 800 series, being a bigger speaker with better components will sound better. I will admit, I know nothing about room acoustics, treatments, etc. This new room will be a finished room with 9' ceilings and single drywall. The system will be set in the far side of the room so the right speaker would be close to a corner (as would be right rear) and the left side would be in the open area.

If you want loud and clear sound and the "concert feeling" for an HT system and do not want to break the bank, you should seriously consider the Klipsch speakers. Getting enough sound out of 800 series B&W's together with amplificfation to fill a 22' x 40' room is going to cost a lot of money.

I have 800 series for my two chanel in a large room and will probably use Klispch for HT when I get around to it. The 800's use the power up so quickly it is scary. I had Klipsch before buying B&W (Klipschorns, Belles and Heresys) and they will do what you want if you use amps that are smooth enough to avoid any horn harshness (you will need much more expensive amps for B&W 800's). The RF series will need about 200 wpc to do what you want (this will vary depending on the amp that you choose). This seems like a lot of power for speakers that are so efficient but they have impedance dips.

Ultimatley a B&W 800 series theater will sound much better, but at many times the price of a Klipsch based system.

[Dmantis]

If you want loud and clear sound and the "concert feeling" for an HT system and do not want to break the bank, you should seriously consider the Klipsch speakers. Getting enough sound out of 800 series B&W's together with amplificfation to fill a 22' x 40' room is going to cost a lot of money.

I have 800 series for my two chanel in a large room and will probably use Klispch for HT when I get around to it. The 800's use the power up so quickly it is scary. I had Klipsch before buying B&W (Klipschorns, Belles and Heresys) and they will do what you want if you use amps that are smooth enough to avoid any horn harshness (you will need much more expensive amps for B&W 800's). The RF series will need about 200 wpc to do what you want (this will vary depending on the amp that you choose). This seems like a lot of power for speakers that are so efficient but they have impedance dips.

Ultimatley a B&W 800 series theater will sound much better, but at many times the price of a Klipsch based system.

If you have a properly setup Klipsch system, it can be the unltimate home theater experience. No speakers that I know of are as efficient as Klipsch. They make a really nice THX ULTRA speaker package that really rocks. Clear and loud. Man I mean loud. if you want room filling sound, Klipsch is the right choice.

[SeaNile]

I'm going to take a huge step out of the box and order 3 of the JTR Triple 12LF speakers. The reviews have been stellar, the dealer support has been fantastic so far and the designer/maker of the speakers is available by phone or email for advice, suggestions, placement, sub settings,etc. From everyone I have talked to these are about the ultimate HT speaker. I won't get a chance to listen to them till August when the house is completed. I loved the B&W sound but had a hard time imagining them filling the room with crystal clear loud music with the power and budget I have.

Stay tuned....

--JK