B&W 803s with Rotel RB-1582

[mb225]

Bang for your bucks I would also consider these integrateds as well;
Harman Kardon HD990/HK990 (CD and integrated amp)
ATC ATC SIA 2-150
Anthem 225.

Regarding the integrated amps; any ideas on the price range listed above? Are they $2-3k, $3-6k or $6k+?

Also, does anyone know the list price on a Mac MA6900? ;x( Maybe I'm just dreaming. My budget is a little flexible, but not crazy flexible! :unsure:

[mb225]

Mac MSRPs:
MA6900: $5,500
MA7000: $8,000

[stuofsci02]

I would also suggest giving yourself some time to get adjusted to the new amplifier. I don't like to suggest that electronics have a big breakin time, but I have found that new amplifiers do tend to settle in once run for a while. I just left mine on over the weekend playing when I was away.. When I returned I preferred the sound, noting that I did not listen in between where one might assume I became acustom to the new sound.

Also, what gauge were the copper speaker cables that you ran?

[stuofsci02]

I noticed some of the cable suggestions cost > $1,500/meter!! My amp was less $$$ than that! 8O

That's crazy... Open up your speaker and see what is inside.. I gaurantee you it isn't anything like that.

I suggest holding off on worring about cables until you have your components sorted out.

[stuofsci02]

Makes purchasing the oppo a bargain and points to it being a bargain :T
Good purchase you got there

Cheers
Orb

Yeah.. Or the Lexicon is just a rip-off, which is likely the case.. Although compared to oth players I have heard I think the Oppo is great value.

I have not compared the Oppo directly to any high end player. I have only compared it to my Rotel RCD-1072 which I would rate as a good player, but certainly not ultra-high end.

I am going to see if my B&W/Chord store will let me bring my Oppo in and face it off against their Chord Red Standard CD player and some of thier other higher end players.

[mb225]

OMG!!! I just called MIT Cables. What an awesome company! They actually answered the phone and talked to me about cables for about 15-mins.

I explained that I'm getting some really bright sound and they said to check the cables. The MIT EXp1 IC have a network but it's built into the cable and I apparently I have 1 previous gen (preamp to amp) and 1 newer gen cable (DacMagic to preamp). The previous gen doesn't have a directional arrow but it needed one, hence the current generation. The words "MPC" on the cable should go on the source side. The network (in the cable, no box on the cable) between my preamp and amp was backwards! The MIT cable guy said that if they were reversed, it could cause everything to sound extra bright.

I switched the cable and did a quick 2-min test; it seemed to help! I'll do some more testing later and I'll let you know the full report.

He also said the EXp3 speaker cables should be returned for something better. EXp3 speaker cables have no network and with a higher end setup(B&W + Rotel), speaker cables could make a world of difference. He recommended the AVt1, AVt2 or AVt3 speaker connects. Anyone have any comments about MIT and/or this suggestion?

Remember I'm a rookie!

[stuofsci02]

What does he mean by a network?

[mb225]

I guess it's how the cable is designed to carry the signal.

This might help explain what he told me on the phone:

http://www.mitcables.com/reference-library/multipole-technology.html

[stuofsci02]

I shall remain a skeptic. The suggestion that a cable is directional leaves a bad taste in my mouth.. I will leave it at that.

[jamesdaman]

cables are directional i totally agree with that

[WelshOne]

I use the Rotel 1575 for my 803D, HTM2D and 805S.

Only with my cyrus CD player was I suffering a harsh top end. I tried many players in my system, with all slight differences, but ended up preferring the cyrus again, still with the harsh fatuguing top end.

I then bought a Canbridge Audio 840C and never looked back. I repositioned my speakers, which brought further improvements again. This player changed tonally after 100 hours, and according to many others can change again until approx 200 hours.

I tried various cables, ended up preferring my chord chorus IC, but IMO cables do make subtle differences.

I think you need to let everything settle down for around 200 hours before you start buying things, and make sure everything is sufficiently warmed up. I can tell you now my system sounds different from cold to having been left on for 24 hours.

Leave it on, playing a cd on repeat during the days.

The biggest influence though IMO is the room. have a look into speaker placement and room treatments. It could save you a lot of money.

Good luck.

Nice kit BTW!!

[jamesdaman]

Yeh i know what you mean about the cyrus what one did you have, Im using the Chord signature IC and what a differnce that made. Im using the CD8se with the psx-r and when you mellow the top end out the detail you get from it is really very impressive

[Dmm53]

I originally had a rotel preamp ((1072?) with my MC352 and it was just fine. Since the MC 352 made such a difference, I traded the Rotel to Audio Classics for the matching Mac C41. I cant say it was a night and day difference, but noticed a bit more definition and soundstage (marginal).

Check out the MC352 at Audio Classics. It is a great value and you will have it for years to come.

[WelshOne]

Hi James,

I had (still have) the CD8, which wasnt the best cyrus player produced. The CD8SE is supposedly brilliant and corrects the harsh end the CD8 had and then some? I tried the 6SE, but found it on a par with my CD8, just with less fatigue but a similar sonic signature.

I would have gone for the 8SE, but I eventually want to have a Mac Min in the system, music stored on a hard drive, and use an external DAC. So therefore the CA 840C was the best option to replace my player, and have external inputs to utilise the good DAC that is has. Simples! :B

I just got fed up with constant reliability problems and disc reading errors with all my cyrus components (I used to be a fanboy) so wanted a change.

The irony is the cambridge is playing up now.......................

[specialized]

Hi.. Finnaly some time to write my experience.. I have 803s, driven by Rotel RB-1080. As preamp i used Denon 3808 and CD Player Rotel RCD-1072. My room is totaly teoreticaly bad for audio (so much glass, windows, no curtains...bare floor..)

I like the sound but something was wrong (Of course in this bright room). I started to experiment, and i have few things to try.. McIntosh preamp (C15 and some 200W old mcintosh amp). I was impressed by the preamp difference (in timbre), and not big difference with the amp. Then i tried Marantz Series 7 Tube Preamp, which was almost the best preamp i ever heared at my setup. Too bad that dont have HT ByPass otherwise i would definitly have it (I have same system for Stereo and HT). Based that i like McIntosh C15 and the Tubes in Marantz i ordered McIntosh C2300 (Tubes, Mcintosh Sound and Ht Bypass to integrate in my Surround).

When i first connected i like the timbre, the imaging , depth, but still there was something wrong specialy on female vocals and i was a bit dissapointed. Speccialy this nassality in the sound was when i listen a bit louder.. I tried with cables, and it was not changed.

Then i tried McIntosh MC501 monos, and the sound was so tigh, so big, but with kinda rounded bass and too gentle. Nasality was gone, but i didnt feel worth to spend the money.. Still i didnt like the nasality and harshness that i was getting.. Then i tried biwiring (Van Den Hull CS-122 cabel), and the sound got improved. So i got another RB-1080 and tried biamping.. There was the difference.. Specialy in clearness of the sound, and the harhness got reduced. But still not right
I have a chance to have Classe SSP-800 for few days, and i really like the clean open sound it produced.. And i realized what was wrong It was Rotel RCD-1072.. Classe is working great even with bad source, and also it can be used as external Dac ), and McIntosh C2300 would show if something is wrong, specialy the source.. So i tried different CD Players (Marantz 8003 and Harman Kardon HD990). Harman was tight but small imaging and some of details was missing.. There was no harshness but also no exciting.. Marantz as first made me nervous, but with very big imaging and a lot of details.. Rotel produced that harshness that i dont like.. I changed the cables (i have friend who gave me Mogami, Van Den Hull 102, Van Den Hull Thunderline, Audio Quest King Cobra and Audio Quest Columbia). I got totaly impressed with Van Den Hull Thunderline on Preamp/Amp (Im using 4 interconnects becouse im biamped), and the Audio Quest Colubmia on Marantz to Preamp.

Harshness almost gone and i was totaly impressed with scene imaging. Marantzs sometimes made me nervous, but sometimes very positive excited. when the records is bad u listen that, and when is good u cant believe it how good sound. I give it back, becouse i want to try Pioneer PD9 and to decide. Definitly source is very important, but becouse i have a lot of flacs my plan is to change CDP to Marantz 8003 od Pioneer, and to spend big source money on External DAC (Bryston, Benchmark or DacMagic).

I hope ull find my post as informative for u'r problem.. And hope to save u time and efforts

Greetings

Dakro

[WelshOne]

Hi.. Finnaly some time to write my experience.. I have 803s, driven by Rotel RB-1080. As preamp i used Denon 3808 and CD Player Rotel RCD-1072. My room is totaly teoreticaly bad for audio (so much glass, windows, no curtains...bare floor..)

I like the sound but something was wrong (Of course in this bright room). I started to experiment, and i have few things to try.. McIntosh preamp (C15 and some 200W old mcintosh amp). I was impressed by the preamp difference (in timbre), and not big difference with the amp. Then i tried Marantz Series 7 Tube Preamp, which was almost the best preamp i ever heared at my setup. Too bad that dont have HT ByPass otherwise i would definitly have it (I have same system for Stereo and HT). Based that i like McIntosh C15 and the Tubes in Marantz i ordered McIntosh C2300 (Tubes, Mcintosh Sound and Ht Bypass to integrate in my Surround).

When i first connected i like the timbre, the imaging , depth, but still there was something wrong specialy on female vocals and i was a bit dissapointed. Speccialy this nassality in the sound was when i listen a bit louder.. I tried with cables, and it was not changed.

Then i tried McIntosh MC501 monos, and the sound was so tigh, so big, but with kinda rounded bass and too gentle. Nasality was gone, but i didnt feel worth to spend the money.. Still i didnt like the nasality and harshness that i was getting.. Then i tried biwiring (Van Den Hull CS-122 cabel), and the sound got improved. So i got another RB-1080 and tried biamping.. There was the difference.. Specialy in clearness of the sound, and the harhness got reduced. But still not right
I have a chance to have Classe SSP-800 for few days, and i really like the clean open sound it produced.. And i realized what was wrong It was Rotel RCD-1072.. Classe is working great even with bad source, and also it can be used as external Dac ), and McIntosh C2300 would show if something is wrong, specialy the source.. So i tried different CD Players (Marantz 8003 and Harman Kardon HD990). Harman was tight but small imaging and some of details was missing.. There was no harshness but also no exciting.. Marantz as first made me nervous, but with very big imaging and a lot of details.. Rotel produced that harshness that i dont like.. I changed the cables (i have friend who gave me Mogami, Van Den Hull 102, Van Den Hull Thunderline, Audio Quest King Cobra and Audio Quest Columbia). I got totaly impressed with Van Den Hull Thunderline on Preamp/Amp (Im using 4 interconnects becouse im biamped), and the Audio Quest Colubmia on Marantz to Preamp.

Harshness almost gone and i was totaly impressed with scene imaging. Marantzs sometimes made me nervous, but sometimes very positive excited. when the records is bad u listen that, and when is good u cant believe it how good sound. I give it back, becouse i want to try Pioneer PD9 and to decide. Definitly source is very important, but becouse i have a lot of flacs my plan is to change CDP to Marantz 8003 od Pioneer, and to spend big source money on External DAC (Bryston, Benchmark or DacMagic).

I hope ull find my post as informative for u'r problem.. And hope to save u time and efforts

Greetings

Dakro

Well I found that post useful :T

[jamesdaman]

Yeh i tried the Cyrus CD8x, i think it was compared to the CD6se there was a differnce but not massive. The main thing was it lost alot of that harsh brightness the CD8x had, the cd8se improved alot more. I dont love an all Cyrus system for me its to much but with my quad it levels out. Ive had no problems playing anything so far(touch wood) id also add i wouldnt buy any cyrus kit without the PSX-R it just makes all the differnce, the 8SE on its on is good with the power supply it becomes a beast. I was using the chord chameleon silver plus but that was tooooo bright. The chord signature is wonderful. This will sound weird but adding the IC, all of a sudden evertying started to make sence sonicly.

[specialized]

Well I found that post useful :T

U know seem that all my hobies is a bit hmm let's say weird, so seem that Hi Fi was perfect match to other of the hobbies

I was looking for my mountain bike position for almost one year (I have some harshness in lower back which i fixed with most bright saddle i have found (totaly ultra race, a peace of carbon and a bit of leather ). But now my Specialized Carbon Epic it's very detailed with a lot of dinamics and no harshness at all


Darko

[mb225]

I use the Rotel 1575 for my 803D, HTM2D and 805S.

Only with my cyrus CD player was I suffering a harsh top end. I tried many players in my system, with all slight differences, but ended up preferring the cyrus again, still with the harsh fatuguing top end.

I then bought a Canbridge Audio 840C and never looked back. I repositioned my speakers, which brought further improvements again. This player changed tonally after 100 hours, and according to many others can change again until approx 200 hours.

I tried various cables, ended up preferring my chord chorus IC, but IMO cables do make subtle differences.

I think you need to let everything settle down for around 200 hours before you start buying things, and make sure everything is sufficiently warmed up. I can tell you now my system sounds different from cold to having been left on for 24 hours.

Leave it on, playing a cd on repeat during the days.

The biggest influence though IMO is the room. have a look into speaker placement and room treatments. It could save you a lot of money.

Good luck.

Nice kit BTW!!

WelshOne, thanks for the advice. I have about 30+ hours on the rotel and I'm starting to hear things change a bit. I think you are correct about the room treatments. I live in a standard-issue center-hall colonial style home. My wife and I hate the formal living room so we decided to make it a listening room! It has hardwood floors and surrounding rooms are hardwood and tile (lots of hard surfaces). My wife has already started looking for a curtain to block off one of the rooms (dinning room). We watch a lot of HGTV and it was something they did on the last dream-home; so it doesn't look bad! We hung up a piece of fabric and noticed an improvement.

My dealer is going to let me demo some additional gear this weekend and the guys at MIT Cables said I could demo some cables that will smooth things out a bit! I think I'm on my way to getting things tuned in. I'm hoping that I will not need to spend a lot more to get "it" but I'm willing to if needed.

[mb225]

Hi.. Finnaly some time to write my experience.. I have 803s, driven by Rotel RB-1080. As preamp i used Denon 3808 and CD Player Rotel RCD-1072. My room is totaly teoreticaly bad for audio (so much glass, windows, no curtains...bare floor..)

I like the sound but something was wrong (Of course in this bright room). I started to experiment, and i have few things to try.. McIntosh preamp (C15 and some 200W old mcintosh amp). I was impressed by the preamp difference (in timbre), and not big difference with the amp. Then i tried Marantz Series 7 Tube Preamp, which was almost the best preamp i ever heared at my setup. Too bad that dont have HT ByPass otherwise i would definitly have it (I have same system for Stereo and HT). Based that i like McIntosh C15 and the Tubes in Marantz i ordered McIntosh C2300 (Tubes, Mcintosh Sound and Ht Bypass to integrate in my Surround).

When i first connected i like the timbre, the imaging , depth, but still there was something wrong specialy on female vocals and i was a bit dissapointed. Speccialy this nassality in the sound was when i listen a bit louder.. I tried with cables, and it was not changed.

Then i tried McIntosh MC501 monos, and the sound was so tigh, so big, but with kinda rounded bass and too gentle. Nasality was gone, but i didnt feel worth to spend the money.. Still i didnt like the nasality and harshness that i was getting.. Then i tried biwiring (Van Den Hull CS-122 cabel), and the sound got improved. So i got another RB-1080 and tried biamping.. There was the difference.. Specialy in clearness of the sound, and the harhness got reduced. But still not right
I have a chance to have Classe SSP-800 for few days, and i really like the clean open sound it produced.. And i realized what was wrong It was Rotel RCD-1072.. Classe is working great even with bad source, and also it can be used as external Dac ), and McIntosh C2300 would show if something is wrong, specialy the source.. So i tried different CD Players (Marantz 8003 and Harman Kardon HD990). Harman was tight but small imaging and some of details was missing.. There was no harshness but also no exciting.. Marantz as first made me nervous, but with very big imaging and a lot of details.. Rotel produced that harshness that i dont like.. I changed the cables (i have friend who gave me Mogami, Van Den Hull 102, Van Den Hull Thunderline, Audio Quest King Cobra and Audio Quest Columbia). I got totaly impressed with Van Den Hull Thunderline on Preamp/Amp (Im using 4 interconnects becouse im biamped), and the Audio Quest Colubmia on Marantz to Preamp.

Harshness almost gone and i was totaly impressed with scene imaging. Marantzs sometimes made me nervous, but sometimes very positive excited. when the records is bad u listen that, and when is good u cant believe it how good sound. I give it back, becouse i want to try Pioneer PD9 and to decide. Definitly source is very important, but becouse i have a lot of flacs my plan is to change CDP to Marantz 8003 od Pioneer, and to spend big source money on External DAC (Bryston, Benchmark or DacMagic).

I hope ull find my post as informative for u'r problem.. And hope to save u time and efforts

Greetings

Dakro

Hi Dakro! Wow!! It sounds like you have put some effort into this! :W Great post, b/c it seems very similar to my experience. Bright room and having a hard time calming it down a bit using Rotel. I told my wife I was going to install carpet on the walls; my wife is awesome since she pushes me to buy cool stuff like expensive stereos, TVs etc. but she had to draw the line with that idea! :rofl:

I have the DacMagic and it does a great job cleaning up the digital signal from a $100 sony DVD player! I will be able to comment more about it once I'm able to compare it to some other sources.

I know exactly what you are saying about the good and the bad! Some things sound so good that I get chills! Then when something bad plays I can't listen to the music b/c I can only hear that I don't like it! It can be awesome and frustrating at the same time!

So, you are running two 1080s with 803s?

[mb225]

I had some fun with cables today. After finding out that one of them was backwards, I did notice the brightness come down a notch or two. But there is still something missing or not right.

After playing with cables, I'm sold on the cable game. I used to think it was a scam! How could cables cost $5-$40,000? I thought, I wasn't going to be able to hear the difference between a $5 cable and a $100 cable. But I was completely wrong! My older IC cables were copper and cost about $30-$40. The MIT EXp1 (considered an entry level IC) makes the old cables sounds like two tin-cans and a tight string! With the cheap cables the bass disappears and what is there gets sloppy. The mids seem to be okay with cheap cables but the upper mids and highs just fade and lose accuracy. Also I noticed the noise introduced by the cheap cables! I'm now a believer!

I think I'm going to return my MIT EXp3 speaker cables and move to the MIT AVt1. I might do the same with my ICs, move from EXp1 to AVt1. I'm thinking, buying cheap cables is like putting low-grade fuel in a sports car!

I will keep everyone posted from what I find out this weekend. Trying out a bunch of stuff!

[Antus]

although cables do make a difference, i would suggest get some basics done before spending too much on cables.

first, i think cables should cost between 10% to 20% of total system cost. which means if you have a $5000 system (including speaker, pre/power amp and cd player) you shouldn't spend between $500 to $1000 on TOTAL cables. (including a pair of IC from cd to pre amp, another pair of IC from pre to power amp, and speaker cable) In my opinion, if someone is spending more on cables, they should looking to change something else.

second, signal cable (IC) affect sound more than speaker cable.

third, shielding is more important in IC, Gauge is more important for speaker cable. I usually like to use nutural sounding cable for IC, Bi-Wire speaker cable. for speaker cable, use same type, but thinner(12, 13, or 14 gauge) for mid/tweeter and thicker (10, 9, or 8 gauge) for bass.

Should you want to upgrade to better amp, the Krell S300i ($2500) and Musical Fidility M6i ($3000) are two best sounding sub $3000 integraded amp i found. if you are looking to spend more, Bryston 4bsst, Classe 2200 works quite well. If you want to spend even more, Krell Evo 302 and Pass 350.5 sound fabulous.

[Orb]

Regarding the integrated amps; any ideas on the price range listed above? Are they $2-3k, $3-6k or $6k+?

Also, does anyone know the list price on a Mac MA6900? ;x( Maybe I'm just dreaming. My budget is a little flexible, but not crazy flexible! :unsure:

As I live in the UK I cannot help you much there, but they should vary from under $2k to around maybe $3k.
Use the interenet and do a search for each product, the Cambridge Audio and others I mentioned earlier will be under 2k, but all of them give you bang for your bucks.
I did think to mention the Krell as that is also value for money but not sure that was what your after.

I appreciate your excited about the cables, remember though that it can be very unpredictible and if you are not lucky your going to go through a lot of cables to get possibly what your after.
The benefits of amps and CDs are that they are more predictible, and easier to audition.

Keep us all informed how it goes
Cheers
Orb

[specialized]

Should you want to upgrade to better amp, the Krell S300i ($2500) and Musical Fidility M6i ($3000) are two best sounding sub $3000 integraded amp i found. if you are looking to spend more, Bryston 4bsst, Classe 2200 works quite well. If you want to spend even more, Krell Evo 302 and Pass 350.5 sound fabulous.

Have u ever compared McIntosh to Classe, Bryston and Krell?

Can u explain me the differences? Too bad i can't hear classe amps (i have chance to hear only SSP-800), and i have a chance to listen Krell FPB300 (802D, too much boomy bass).. Im thinking for the future should i upgrade to McIntosh, Classe or Bryston (too bad i can hear only McIntosh)

Darko

[jamesdaman]

There is the rule of thumb to spend 10-20% on cables which is fair but I've spent more and I can't think a better way to get the same upgrade I did from the cables for the money. Next thing I want is some power chords

[WelshOne]

It has hardwood floors and surrounding rooms are hardwood and tile (lots of hard surfaces).

Id say thats part of the problem....actually quite a big part of the problem.

I know its boring, but i'd let the system and your ears get used to the new sound for a few weeks.

The 800 series are incredibly detailed, and sometimes it can be confused as being harsh or fatiquing. This is one of the reasons some 'audiophiles' dont like B&W's.

Not all cd's/genres will shine on the system. So dont expect Metallica to sound as good as Diana Krall. In fact a lot of setups dont excel at all music styles.

The 800's are very true and revealing, and when partenered with nuetral/bright kit, can exacerbate the recording.

Thats why so many people like Classe/McIntosh, as they are softer/warmer sounding gear.

The danger you have now is looking for a warmer/softer sound, and if you acheive that with said expensive equipment, and then eventually soften the room with furnishings, you could make the sound eventually quite flat, and just make the kit/amps work harder to get the excitement back.

My advice would be to let it cook for a few weeks, throw in a rug and/or pair of curtains, and then see where you are. Look into room acoustics as a side interest whilst your getting used to the system.

Dont fall into the trap of buying more and more expensive gear just to get the right sound. Ive heard set ups 1/3 of the cost of mine sound better, and vice versa. A lot of that was due to the room and positioning.

Good luck........ :T

[mb225]

first, i think cables should cost between 10% to 20% of total system cost. which means if you have a $5000 system (including speaker, pre/power amp and cd player) you shouldn't spend between $500 to $1000 on TOTAL cables.

I think my ratio is a bit off. I'm over $6,500 on amp, preamp, speakers and DacMagic. All of my cabling (speaker and IC) cost $300. I was thinking of returning the $300 set and move to $1000 set (Speaker + IC). Nothing crazy, and that falls in the 10-20% range

[mb225]

My advice would be to let it cook for a few weeks, throw in a rug and/or pair of curtains, and then see where you are. Look into room acoustics as a side interest whilst your getting used to the system.

Dont fall into the trap of buying more and more expensive gear just to get the right sound.

I like this advice! Since it doesn't involve throwing tons of money at it. :T

Every time I think of the system being too bright, I just need to go in the other room and listen to my 15-year-old Onkyo and Bose 501s. That really puts things in perspective! I've also been put back in line by hooking up my old Adcom GFA-545(100w/c) amp. It makes it sound like the 803s are somewhere else in the house!

I'm so unlucky, I can't get my 803s/Rotel tuned to perfection! <said with a ton of sarcasm>

Special thanks to everyone for all the help and advice! I will keep you posted with updates and findings.

[stuofsci02]

I had some fun with cables today. After finding out that one of them was backwards, I did notice the brightness come down a notch or two. But there is still something missing or not right.

After playing with cables, I'm sold on the cable game. I used to think it was a scam! How could cables cost $5-$40,000? I thought, I wasn't going to be able to hear the difference between a $5 cable and a $100 cable. But I was completely wrong! My older IC cables were copper and cost about $30-$40. The MIT EXp1 (considered an entry level IC) makes the old cables sounds like two tin-cans and a tight string! With the cheap cables the bass disappears and what is there gets sloppy. The mids seem to be okay with cheap cables but the upper mids and highs just fade and lose accuracy. Also I noticed the noise introduced by the cheap cables! I'm now a believer!

I think I'm going to return my MIT EXp3 speaker cables and move to the MIT AVt1. I might do the same with my ICs, move from EXp1 to AVt1. I'm thinking, buying cheap cables is like putting low-grade fuel in a sports car!

I will keep everyone posted from what I find out this weekend. Trying out a bunch of stuff!

Before falling head first into the cable game, let your system break in as others have said. Also, I would be careful comparing your 15 year old copper cables to a newer quality cable and making quick judgements about the value of expensive cables.

It is more then likely that your old copper has simply oxidized and as such you aren't making a quality connection. Before running out and spending mucho Dinero on cables, I suggest you try a new less expensive cable with appropriate gauge (14 minimum) and then make the comparison. It won't cost you much ($20) to try and could save you a lot of money.

I am using the Chord Carnival Silver Screen at roughly $4 to $5 per foot. Again, I replaced some $1/ft 12 gauge cables with no noticeable change. Both cables are 8 ft long. The main reason for my replacement (and I say replacement an not upgrade as I did not find it to be one) was to have a better looking cable and I like to way the Silver Screen lays nice and flat without twisting etc.

[mb225]

Hi all,

I'm sorry, I don't have much time to write (my life got really busy the past few days). I have some really interesting findings to report. The short of it; I think my interconnects (MIT EXp1) are bringing out the problem and making everything sound bright!

I have some interesting findings from this weekend. I got to compare Rotel RB-1582 vs RB-1552. DacMagic vs. Rotel RCD-1520. And my dealer let me borrow MIT AVT1 IC and speaker cables. I will give you my review/opinion when I have some time later.

[WelshOne]

Hi all,

I'm sorry, I don't have much time to write (my life got really busy the past few days). I have some really interesting findings to report. The short of it; I think my interconnects (MIT EXp1) are bringing out the problem and making everything sound bright!

I have some interesting findings from this weekend. I got to compare Rotel RB-1582 vs RB-1552. DacMagic vs. Rotel RCD-1520. And my dealer let me borrow MIT AVT1 IC and speaker cables. I will give you my review/opinion when I have some time later.

Good news! Look forward to hearing your comparisons!!!

[mb225]

My dealer let me borrow a few items this weekend to address my bright sound. He let me take home:
1 - MIT AVT1 IC
1 - MIT AVT3 IC
2 - MIT AVT1 Speaker cables
1 - Rotel RB-1552 (120w/c amp)
1 - Rotel CD Player (RCD-1520)

As a recap, here is my current setup:
1 - Rotel RC-1550 (2 channel preamp)
1 - Rotel RB-1582 (200w/c amp)
1 - Cambridge Audio DacMagic
1 - Sony DVP-NS75H (DVD Player)
2 - B&W 803s
2 - MIT EXP1 IC
2 - MIT EXP3 Speaker Connects

Background. My wife and I are both scientists and we both played musical instruments for 15+ years (we have pretty good ears!) and we are into controlled tests! Meaning we only changed 1 thing at a time.

I put 6 full-length curtains around the room to block doorways and take the brightness out of the room.

MIT EXP1 vs MIT AVT1 + AVT3:
The first thing I tried was I took off my MIT EXP1 IC and put in 1 MIT AVT1 (between the preamp and amp) and the MIT AVT1 (between the DacMagic and the preamp). My dealer didn't have a matching set of AVT1 IC.

The overly bright sound was immediately warmed up. The mids and bass came through more and the harsh sound was pretty much fixed! Hmm.... Very interesting.

MIT EXP3 SC vs MIT AVT1 SC:
Next I replace my EXp3 Speaker connects with the AVT1 speaker connects. This warmed the sound up even more! It didn't make it sound like a tube amp, but it felt much warmer than a typical solid-state! Unfortunately, it also made the kit sound a bit harsh again! What is really interesting is the amount of detail this cables brought out. Now instead of hearing an instrument, I could hear the flicker of the reed and the tone of the instrument! It was really cool! But it was also a little bright. So still didn't solve my issue 100%.

My wife and I had different opinions here. She said the cables made the system sound amazing! I thought it sounded great but still a bit bright. I popped in Dave Matthews - Shake me like a Monkey and she agreed and said some recordings sounded a touch bright. BTW, Pink Floyd sounded insanely good in this configuration! Also, Radiohead was amazing.

Since these cables seemed to bring out an amazing amount of detail we decided to leave them hooked up to test the CD Player.

Cambridge DacMagic vs Rotel RCD-1520:
Next I tried the Rotel RCD-1520. Since I didn't have all the same cables, I decided to start with the RCD hooked up to the AVt3 IC and the DacMagic on the EXp1s; the DacMagic is hooked up to my Sony DVD player. I burned 2 CDs (exactly the same with a good selection of test music). Popped them both in and hit play at the exact same time so I could flip back and forth.

The DacMagic sounded a tiny bit brighter than the RCD. But everything else sounded so similar that it was very hard to tell the difference between the two. I would expect the DacMagic to sound brighter since it was using the brighter ICs.

So I switched the IC. Now the RCD was using the Exp1s and the DacMagic was using the AVT3s. In this configuration, I could not tell any difference between the Rotel and the DacMagic. None!!! My wife and I did blind tests and could not hear any difference!

This tells me that the DacMagic is a hair brighter but otherwise, they are exactly the same!!! I mean 99.9% the same. Digital media fans can rejoice! You don't need to buy a dead technology (CD Players)! I'm sure I will get a few comments on this one.. :unsure:

But I was really happy since I don't want a CD player. I want a music server. It means I'm free to use any device that can produce a good 16/24-bit digital signal! yeah!! :clap: :righton:

I will write up the amp review tomorrow.

More to come...

[jamesdaman]

Just to let you know cables have a burn in time so that bright harshness your getting now may very well go after a few hours of listening and you will be left with all the detail and a lovely warm sound

[mb225]

Rotel RB-1552 vs Rotel RB-1582

Next up, I got to compare the Rotel RB-1552 (A/B 120w/c) to the Rotel RB-1582 (A/B 200w/c). To do this I used the exact same cables and source (DacMagic). I listened to a few songs with my RB-1582(200w/c) and switched out the amp for the RB-1552(120w/c) and listened to the exact same songs.

There are some key differences here. The RB-1552(120w) is definitely a little softer on the top-end and it's not as bright. However, it is also not as good with bass. The low-end gets weak and, to be honest, a little sloppy compared to the RB-1582(200w). In fact one song (Alexi Murdoch - All of my days) really showed the differences. One section of the song has a very deep note that is felt and heard by the 1582(200w) but wit the RB-1552(120w) that part of the song is inaudible! I mean it's completely missing! Weird, I really didn't think comparing a Rotel to a Rotel would reveal a clear difference.

The 1582(200w) sounds a little tighter and more accurate. But it does go a little bright on me compared to the 1552(120w). So now I need to decide if I want good clean bass or smoother highs...??

So I decided to try to get the best of both worlds! Let's hook them both up and do some bi-amping. 1552(120w) on the top-end and the 1582(200w) on the bottom end. Unfortunately, my cables didn't work out. I used the AVT1 Speaker connects on the top and the EXP3 Speaker connects on the bottom. The AVT1's were 12 feet long and the EXP3's were 8 feet long. This made it sound like the track was playing over itself! Boo!!! So I wasn't able to play with bi-amping before I had to return the demo gear.

If I had to pick between the two amps I think I would go with the RB-1582. But I love lower/bass tones. I'm thinking I will be able to warm up the sound with different IC.

My dealer seems to be trying to stop me from buying different cables. He thinks I should try out some more amps. He offered to let me take home a Mac MA6300(200w/c) and he is looking for a NAD 375 (150w/c). But I'm not sure I want to make the $$$ jump to Mac and I feel like the NAD might be a little underpowered?

[hifiguymi]

I've had a similar experience with the RB-1080 and RB-1070. The RB-1080 is better overall and would recommend the larger amp with almost any speaker. It is a little curious that your dealer isn't keen on you trying a different brand of cable. Is that the only brand he sells?

Eric

[style]

Hi mb225,

I will try the Rotel Rb1520 AND Rb1552 or Rb1562 in bi-ampl.

or the Rb1580 with the Rb1572 or Rb1582...

I prefer the D class vs. the AB power ampli but is a personla taste...

the cd player Rcd1520 is OK, I don't understand we you need the DacDatamagic...
the cd player is a digital source and to have a analog sound from a cd player the 1520 is not the right player: with the Rotel you go have a lot of more satisfaction with the connection with a coax. cable to the Rotel preampli.


for the Oppo in Usa is very attractive with a price from $ 499.-!
I life in Switzerland and I have found a Oppo 83 Nuforce S.E . Ok, great but price is chf. 2490.- = $. 2400 is here around!!! I have the Pioneer LX91/09 and the Denon3800: The Pioneer is the Best bluray pllayer available.


if you will the digital server go with a Macmini . is the more available for price, "gadget" and very good performance. the Olive 4HD is great, sure but a lot more expensive!

The cables is a important point but a system muss be equilibrate: don't make any sense go with cables from $.1000 for the speakers with a powerampli from the same price!
the popolar 10% from the system in cables is a good referent point.
You can buy a more expensive but don't wasted your money in the search from a voodo cables!.

hope this help
greetings Style

[mb225]

It is a little curious that your dealer isn't keen on you trying a different brand of cable. Is that the only brand he sells?

They are an MIT and Monster dealer. The salesman said he doesn't really recommend Monster (that's just what they sell). He also doesn't seem to recommend MIT. He said I should get Kimber Kable or Mable Shade. But no local dealers and I don't really want to get involved with buy-n-try cables!

The MIT cables seem to have a drastic effect on my setup. I have to say, it has me thinking! I called MIT and they said they manipulate the magnetic field around the cable to keep the signal pure. But I feel like they are using the magnetic field to manipulate the signal? I know a lot of people seem to use MIT, but they seem to use there really high-end lines. Stuff that costs $500+/IC and over $1k for Speaker. I'm willing to spend a little more but I'm not sure it's all Voodo! Does anyone have any experience with this?

I actually went to best buy and bought a set of audioquest sidewinder RCA's, they just seem to be good copper cables. The sidewinders changed everything. It brought everything back to "normal". It also made the setup lose warmth, detail and excitement. But it doesn't sound bright anymore.

To be honest, I'm getting a little frustrated with this whole cable thing.

[mb225]

...8o...

[BBibber]

Hi,

I also recently bought a set of 803S (as a replacement for my B&W P6 speakers). I'm using them in a HT setup with a Denon 3802 as a pre-amp and a NAD 216 THX (2x125W RMS but about 15 years old). I'm also going to change my NAD but I can only say that the one I have today is not at all bright and harsh but warm, detailed and dynamic.

I also wanted to go to Rotel RB-1582 (my dealer is also distributing Rotel) but he did not recommend this amp. He advised me to stay with NAD (in stereo or bridged) or to go to ATOLL AM200 (2x120 W RMS or 1 x 360 W RMS). Especially to keep the detailed and warm sound.

Anyhow, this weekend I'm going to audition a few configurations (Rotel, Classé, NAD and ATOLL) and my dealer is going to give me 2 AM200 to try out at home... and he is very confident that I'm going to keep them!

[stuofsci02]

NAD and underpowered should not be used in the same sentence. :W

[mb225]

My dealer said he recommended a NAD M3 Integrated. But of course, they don't have any NAD 2-channel amps to try. :throwat:

[stuofsci02]

My dealer said he recommended a NAD M3 Integrated. But of course, they don't have any NAD 2-channel amps to try. :throwat:

Yeah... Thats basically two Monobocks in an integrated chassis... Nice..

I have a number of NAD amps, and none lack for power.. Even the little 2150 50wpc power amp. My NAD 2200 Power Envelope amps (100 wpc) can actually dim the lights in my house when there is a lot of bass.

With the new power drive system NAD is using, and the typical underating that NAD is known for, I would highly doubt you would be wanting more power. Also NAD has always been very musical and warm (at least IMO) which seems to be the sound you prefer...

Of course, you need to listen to one first..

[Orb]

Yeah... Thats basically two Monobocks in an integrated chassis... Nice..

I have a number of NAD amps, and none lack for power.. Even the little 2150 50wpc power amp. My NAD 2200 Power Envelope amps (100 wpc) can actually dim the lights in my house when there is a lot of bass.

With the new power drive system NAD is using, and the typical underating that NAD is known for, I would highly doubt you would be wanting more power. Also NAD has always been very musical and warm (at least IMO) which seems to be the sound you prefer...

Of course, you need to listen to one first..

Agree with ya Stu
Yeah why I suggested them as well, their dynamic power works very well and many love the NAD amps and rightly so.

mb225, I do think though unless your totally stunned with the amp you listen to at your dealer then you will need to find 1 or 2 more that have B&W speakers but different amps you can listen to.
Otherwise you will very possibly get the upgrade itch.
For the Nad I would look to their upper models, just below and maybe if can afford their M series.
The new Arcam is well liked and usually sold at many B&W dealers, also Naim (recommend you listen to their integrated I mentioned) are at many B&W dealers.
But the Naim may require specific cables, which the dealer can fill you in on if is the case.

And depending how much access you have to dealers you got the list from earlier page.

Cheers
Orb

[altanpsx]

Your are not listening your 803s, you are listening Dac Magic, 3-4 $ cables, Sony cd player. You do not even hear the real potential of the 803s. Buy decent equipments, cables.

As a 803s owner you should aim for a Classe, Ear, ASR, Nagra, Audio Research Ref series, Mcintosh etc. Not for a Nad or an Oppo, even Rotel.

For a speaker cable I suggest you to try Audioquest Volcano, it makes 2 times bigger your speakers. Also Audioquest Sky, Niagara ai are very good cables, and it would be a good match with volcano.

My current setup is;

803s, classe cap-2100, ear acute cd player(with nos tubes), pro-ject 9.1 rpm turntable, Primare R-20 Phono Stage, Audioquest Volcano speaker cable, Sky AI's

[mb225]

Your are not listening your 803s, you are listening Dac Magic, 3-4 $ cables, Sony cd player. You do not even hear the real potential of the 803s. Buy decent equipments, cables.

Hi Altanpsx, I agree with you, I feel like I'm getting the full potential out of the 803s.

I looked up some of the equipment you're recommending. I think I might be getting in over my head! :E

Unfortunately, my budget has a limit. I can afford to do 1 big upgrade or a few little ones. Example, I can probably move up to a Mac and a little better interconnects/speaker cables. Or I can move up to really great cables. The cables you recommended would cost me about $10,000! :sos:

I can't do it all. So would I be better off spending money on 1 big upgrade or spreading it out on everything?

BTW, what to you think of a Bryston Amp/preamp?

Thanks!