New B&W serie 800 !!!

[emig5m]

I demoed the Signature Diamonds in the same room and using the same Classe equipment that I demoed most of the 800 series in. I can second that the mids were "sweeter" and perhaps a bit more detailed. However, the lack of substantial bass, particularly with the kind of music I listen to, turned me off them. I think they would be great for classical and vocals, but for rock and jazz, I don't think they are the ideal speaker.

Maybe the illusion of better and more detailed mids was the lack of bass muddying up the top end? I swear playing around with my system you can keep adding bass but it seems to lose mid detail at the same time as more bass is added. Less bass = seems like more mid detail. But if they truly do have better mids and only lack bass, why not just crossover to a good sub or two and have the best of both worlds?

And for the 804, well not sure how it will stack up against competitors at that price without changes to its bass.

That's why I thought the new 804 should of got an additional bass driver like the 803D has (three instead of two)... Heck I might of considered selling my 804S for the new ones if they did that. They do look sharper though, but I buy speakers for sound first and not so much looks....hehe. My main question about the diamond tweeter is: is it as noticeable of a difference going from the midrange clarity of a 684/685 standard mid driver to a 683 FST mid where the difference is easily noticeable or is it a more subtle difference over the aluminum dome tweeter? When I carefully demoed my own 685 to the 683, it was easily noticeable that the FST mid had much more open and detailed mids.....would I get that same effect from going to the diamond tweeter from the aluminum? Or would it be about the same detail and openness but maybe taking the edge off a metal dome's coloration?

[jamesdaman]

Where in the uk are they selling tht cheap??

[KyaDawn]

Maybe the illusion of better and more detailed mids was the lack of bass muddying up the top end?

No, not an illusion, the Signature Diamond is well known for "better and more detailed mids". Actually, the term used was "sweeter", and it's subjective whether that means "better". :W But compare it to the 805S, which is also a 2-way speaker without a woofer, and the difference is obvious. 8)

I swear playing around with my system you can keep adding bass but it seems to lose mid detail at the same time as more bass is added.

Then you're doing something wrong! :B

Less bass = seems like more mid detail. But if they truly do have better mids and only lack bass, why not just crossover to a good sub or two and have the best of both worlds?

Who says you can't?

[emig5m]

Who says you can't?

So why didn't you? :

[KyaDawn]

But if they truly do have better mids and only lack bass, why not just crossover to a good sub or two and have the best of both worlds?

Who says you can't?

Now if you're asking ME specifically why I didn't choose that route, there are several reasons why:

1. I'm not currently even using a subwoofer for the main reason I don't have space for it in my listening room where it would be aesthetically acceptable, and I find my 802Ds provide more than enough bass for my tastes.

2. The Signature Diamonds cost about $18K. :B

3. I use my set-up not only for stereo listening, but also for multi-channel sources, whether they're SACDs, DVD-As, DVDs, HD-DVDs or Blu-ray. As the Signature Diamonds are not timbre-matched with any other speakers in the B&W lines, I would need at least another pair of the $18K beauties for multi-channel listening (for just 4.0), and probably another three plus a sub for 5.1, which I'm not prepared to spend for.

However, aside from my personal situation, one can, of course, add a sub or two to the Signature Diamonds and have an amazing stereo set-up. Just not feasible for my situation.

That is not to say, however, that I would prefer such a set-up to my current one...I don't. :rofl:

[Gump]

I am working on those details but they were not available at the time of the show. Hopefully soon we'll know.

Nice to see you posting again James! The 805D's must be quite intriguing to inspire you out of your HT Guide "reclusion". I would love to have a pair of those for surrounds.... 8)

Every year I kick myself for not going to Vegas/CES with you guys....maybe next year !

[RebelMan]

Actually I'm ambivalent about the "new" 800 series.

Dislikes: These are not a "new" series or design (for this year adding new chrome wheels, new paint job and an improved engine control module doesn't make it a new Mustang) but instead a small update that looks to be done more for the sake of having a "new" speaker line (and more importantly to get fresh reviews and publicity) that making any fundamental changes. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that a DB test with 802D's and 802 Diamonds (or others sans 804 & 805) would be inconclusive and they would be an exact timbre match. Just moving one an inch or two would likely change the sound more that the design has done.

True but adding a CAI, hot rod cams, long tube headers plus a new tune would make it a better breathing Mustang and that's what B&W has done with the new series. The new "decorations" are not meant to serve any purpose other than to visually distinguish between series.

Likes: It means B&W engineers couldn't find a design improvement (or design fault with the current D's) that would fundamentally change the 800's within the same costs so I can easily resist (well not easily but...) upgrade fever. Also my HTM1D is likely to depreciate far less since B&W will no longer make a timbre matching detected center for the 802 and 801's.

They claim they did but again it becomes less significant this side of the series. The other side see's much greater gains much like a supercharged 4.0L would compared to a bolt on 4.6L .

[Orb]

Where in the uk are they selling tht cheap??

Here you go, they are also legit dealer up to and including 800 models:

http://www.badaweb.co.uk/show.php?site=infidelity2

Cheers
Orb

[RebelMan]

Great to see you James. :T Hope that 2010 will be a good year for you & the family.

This is jumping the gun but I'm curious to know if there might be any advantage to modding the "now previous" 802D's with updated crossovers (including better capacitors) - without changing the drivers. Of course the new range have new crossovers AND new drivers.

My initial thought on this is "probably not". Reason being is that the new range has been voiced with new crossovers + new drivers. If a mod is to be successful then it would have to include the new "bigger magnet" drivers.

Just a thought.

U2 Lucien thanks!
There would be an advantage but not fully realized without replacing some of the drivers too. The enclosures are identical so manual intervention is surely possible but when B&W was approached on topic they declined making it an option. Without a direct AB it's still to early to say how much improvement there is beween models but I have no urge to move out. FWIW I prefer the look of the 800D over the new 800 Di anyway.

[JargonGR]

On a second thought regarding modifying an "old" 800 to the Diamond one I do not think it is worth it price wise.

For example my 800Ds are one year old and in pristine condition without a single scratch on them! I think selling them and getting the new ones would not be more expensive than buying all the stuff (drivers + crossovers) and having someone to do the work for you.

[William]

On a second thought regarding modifying an "old" 800 to the Diamond one I do not think it is worth it price wise.

For example my 800Ds are one year old and in pristine condition without a single scratch on them! I think selling them and getting the new ones would not be more expensive than buying all the stuff (drivers + crossovers) and having someone to do the work for you.

Take a couple of aspirins (I've been diagnosed with early adopter fever myself) have a glass of wine and listen to your current setup. Then ask yourself: will the Diamonds sound significantly (or even marginally) better/different than your current setup? If they do (which I highly doubt*) how would they integrate with your HTM1? If they don't timbre match your HTM1 then what do you do? Downgrade to a HTM2 Diamond (which won't timbre match them either or can you use a 800 Diamond as a center? (can't remember if you have a projection screen or not)).

* I bet if you had a way to do DB test in your home with both you would not hear a difference and if you did you would likely not identify the Diamond's as having a "better" sound quality. Sure people are hyped and the Kool-Aid will naturally influence their opinions. Hell if I saw and heard them I'd probably be just as guilty since it's human nature.

Let's see if Kal gets a pair of 802 Diamonds to test and see if he can do a DB test with his 802D's.

[wettou]

They were quite enjoyable. Too bad that the 805 Diamonds were not listenable (the 802 Diamonds physically dominated the room and received the most attention) but they are the most improved of the line.

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2010 with Health and Prosperity good to read from you again.

The new series looks interesting I am not sure that for HT the shiny silver works!! I wonder how much better they sound?

[Kal Rubinson]

Originally Posted by RebelMan
They were quite enjoyable. Too bad that the 805 Diamonds were not listenable (the 802 Diamonds physically dominated the room and received the most attention) but they are the most improved of the line.

I got to hear the 805Ds and was quite impressed with the overall balance and power, given the unfamiliar system and room.

[wildmda]

Kal

how did the 802s sound?

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal

how did the 802s sound?

Fine but the brief demo didn't permit any judgements other than that they can play LOUD.

[Hammie]

I showed my wife btf1980's pictures of the Rosenut 804 Diamond's and she did not like them. She picked right up on the silver accents without me even mentioning them.

She said she likes the ones we have much better.

[1oldguy]

I showed my wife btf1980's pictures of the Rosenut 804 Diamond's and she did not like them. She picked right up on the silver accents without me even mentioning them.

She said she likes the ones we have much better.

Your wife is a smart woman. :T No one here in this household digs the new look either.At the price point the people who buy these speakers don't want an eye sore.That's a whole lot of clash for so much stash. :rofl:

[Glenee]

I got a chance to talk to one of the Rep's for a bit about the 805D's. I asked Him about performance enhancements to the 805S. He asked if I had ever heard the signature's. I hadn't. He said in the same ball park.
Take it for what it's Worth.
But I can hardly wait to hear them.
Kal have you ever heard the Signatures ? If you have were the 805D's simular ?

[emig5m]

Your wife is a smart woman. :T No one here in this household digs the new look either.At the price point the people who buy these speakers don't want an eye sore.That's a whole lot of clash for so much stash. :rofl:

I dunno, I kinda like them. I think the piano black ones look real sharp.

[RebelMan]

Out of interest, has the dimensions or port flow size changed on any of the new models?

Thanks
Orb

It appears to be identical in size but is different in form (different dimple configuration).

[RedWolf]

I actually like the rings that seem to be causing such a stir. If they have the sound improvements they claim, I will be purchasing the 804 Diamond to replace my current 805 fronts. I don't want to have to buy a new center but most likely will have to if the voice on the diamond is that different.

[Antus]

the past generation of Matrix 800 series went through 3 generations before introduction of current curved series. In the past Matrix series, the third generation was only a crossover update and a new tweeter. all the "boxes" were remain the same.

b&w do the same for the current generation. the new Diamond is the third generation of current series, with crossover update and improved driver.

another reason for small change because there are changing the factory from Danmark to UK. It is easier to produce the same thing rather than make big changes. to get the yield high.

If you take a demo of the signature diamond, u can get a feel of how the silver/gold/oil will sound. pair that with DB1 and u get pretty close to what the new 800 diamond will sound.

I think for 802D user, you can upgrade the tweeter capacitor to silver/gold/oil. and midrange capacitor to Spreme and silver/gold. I would say you will get 85% of the improvement of the new series.

The updated Diamond series are the perfection of current design. I can't think of anything that can dramatically improve the sound without dramatically change the speaker. the crossover are the best of what's available. drivers are near perfection.

i am starting to think what can improve in the next major update for 800 series. i'd say the mid driver will perhaps the weakest link in the current driver line up. maybe b&w are developing a more rigid meterial to make it more piston like in the next series.

[Race Car Driver]

I actually like the rings that seem to be causing such a stir.

Agreed.

[Kal Rubinson]

I got a chance to talk to one of the Rep's for a bit about the 805D's. I asked Him about performance enhancements to the 805S. He asked if I had ever heard the signature's. I hadn't. He said in the same ball park.
Take it for what it's Worth.
But I can hardly wait to hear them.
Kal have you ever heard the Signatures ? If you have were the 805D's simular ?

I have not heard the Signatures but, even if I had, it would be impossible to compare the two since my exposure to the 805D was brief and under unfamiliar conditions.

[wettou]

After they upgrade the design including the frame then I will upgrade unless Kal tells us the the new 800D blow everything!!

[sc2]

A point of view

In my opinion, the black speakers are cold and stark, sophisticated in appearance which the rings enhance this look, which is OK. On the rosenuts,(not so much the cherrywood) they take away from the warmth or richness of the wood, they appear out of place, take away from the beauty of the speaker. They are an eyesore as your eye focuses in on them.

As far as upgrading 802D's, it would be nice if B&W would offer an upgrade package since the structure is the same, for what $4000 a pair? I think this would allow them to make money on previous model in addition to new sales.

I might even consider it if they have a package that does away with those rings :T

[wettou]

As far as upgrading 802D's, it would be nice if B&W would offer an upgrade package since the structure is the same, for what $4000 a pair? I think this would allow them to make money on previous model in addition to new sales.

$4000 for an upgrade !!! No way may be $1000 if that!

[KyaDawn]

After they upgrade the design including the frame then I will upgrade unless Kal tells us the the new 800D blow everything!!

I agree, I'm not interested in buying a whole new speaker for the purpose of a crossover upgrade and slightly different drivers with magnets and inferior styling. :B I think for people that do not currently own the 800D series, though, these new Diamonds are an attractive buy, and some people like the silver rings. Myself, I'm content on keeping my babies for another 6 years until B&W completely retools and re-styles the 800 series.

[sikoniko]

Sometimes it is better to have facts instead of assumptions. The new diamond is a complete redesign that includes four magnets and a new surround housing to include better control and dynamics. There is also a new dual magnet LF woofer that uses neodidium instead of what they were before. I'll let rebelman explain the crossover upgrades. I would equate the upgrade for 805 and 804 as significant while the others as more of a major tweak to improve performance.

Depending on who you talked to at the booth, they claim the new 802 diamond is as good or better than the outgoing 800d.

[beden1]

Depending on who you talked to at the booth, they claim the new 802 diamond is as good or better than the outgoing 800d.

Did they quote you a price on the Brooklyn Bridge as well? Just kidding, but, salesman are there to sell.

It will be interesting to read about the impressions from people who frequent this forum over the coming months.

[Orb]

Sometimes it is better to have facts instead of assumptions. The new diamond is a complete redesign that includes four magnets and a new surround housing to include better control and dynamics. There is also a new dual magnet LF woofer that uses neodidium instead of what they were before. I'll let rebelman explain the crossover upgrades. I would equate the upgrade for 805 and 804 as significant while the others as more of a major tweak to improve performance.

Depending on who you talked to at the booth, they claim the new 802 diamond is as good or better than the outgoing 800d.

The multiple use of magnets on a driver is interesting though, as this reminds me of the Focal Utopia range with the Power Flower magnet arrangment on their mid.
Did B&W explain a bit about the multiple magnet structure they use?
From your post seems to me your saying four magnets on the mid driver, and two magnets on woofers.
Just curious what this also means for the 805 and also 804.

Cheers
orb

[SoundEngine355]

Regarding the price increases,

805s to 805D - Sure, a diamond tweeter. Crossover hardly... capacitors are cheap as chips (well the ones B&W use anyway)

All the rest of the range, is just marketing... having opened up a pair of 803D and 800D's I can tell you the crossover is nothing fancy.

I would be very interested to see say the old 803D crossover compared to the new 803D, probally only 1 capacitor value changed or maybe B&W have now decided to change from company X to company Y for crossover components and now its a "Upgraded Crossover" (Same values of course!)

I doubt anyone could pick an old vs new 803D/800D in a blind test.

[SoundEngine355]

Also it will be good to see if B&W have changed from that super cheap VDH CS-14 $5 USD p/m internal wiring...

[aarsoe]

Not sure I understand your comment about cheap capacitors. The capacitors used in the new line is supposedly Mundorf Oil/Gold/Silver versions - and I can tell you first hand that they are really expensive. At least if someone like you or me try to purchase them. Higher values can be above USD 200 pr piece.
Are they then the best? No - that is debatable but they are very good.

[JargonGR]

Take a couple of aspirins (I've been diagnosed with early adopter fever myself) have a glass of wine and listen to your current setup. Then ask yourself: will the Diamonds sound significantly (or even marginally) better/different than your current setup? If they do (which I highly doubt*) how would they integrate with your HTM1? If they don't timbre match your HTM1 then what do you do? Downgrade to a HTM2 Diamond (which won't timbre match them either or can you use a 800 Diamond as a center? (can't remember if you have a projection screen or not)).

* I bet if you had a way to do DB test in your home with both you would not hear a difference and if you did you would likely not identify the Diamond's as having a "better" sound quality. Sure people are hyped and the Kool-Aid will naturally influence their opinions. Hell if I saw and heard them I'd probably be just as guilty since it's human nature.

Let's see if Kal gets a pair of 802 Diamonds to test and see if he can do a DB test with his 802D's.

Oh well you are absolutely right and yet, the fact that they phased out the HTM1D somehow pisses me off (unless it can be upgraded with new cross and woofers which I doubt.)

Nevertheless, timbre matching is a huge issue and I am also using 4 803Ds as surrounds, that while less important, it would be a shame to disturb a system with correct tonal and timbre balance.

[SoundEngine355]

Not sure I understand your comment about cheap capacitors. The capacitors used in the new line is supposedly Mundorf Oil/Gold/Silver versions - and I can tell you first hand that they are really expensive. At least if someone like you or me try to purchase them. Higher values can be above USD 200 pr piece.
Are they then the best? No - that is debatable but they are very good.

Well if they are using the Mundorf SGO that is a good start, but remember it will only be 1 capacitor, just like in the 800D, it uses a silver/oil from memory.

Anyway all I was trying to say was I don't think the price increase on anything but the 805D called for.

Time will tell, hopefully I will get a pair of 805D and new 800D's to pull apart and see what has changed soon!

[WelshOne]

Was there anymore news on the new subwoofer at all please?

Im considering getting one? Im not sure how much better it would be though over say an ASW855 and an EQ system, i.e. Antimode?

An idea on UK pricing would be great.

Thanks

[William]

I agree, I'm not interested in buying a whole new speaker for the purpose of a crossover upgrade and slightly different drivers with magnets and inferior styling. :B I think for people that do not currently own the 800D series, though, these new Diamonds are an attractive buy, and some people like the silver rings. Myself, I'm content on keeping my babies for another 6 years until B&W completely retools and re-styles the 800 series.

This was my fear a little over a year ago when I replaced my mains (803Ds moved to rears) with 802Ds and my HTM2D with a HTM1D. I was concerned that B&W was going to replace (as in redesign (maybe a diamond mid or something dramatic) and retool) the 800's with a new line soon. My fears have be annulled because this is just a very minor tweaking of the line. If anything reducing the lineup and going Diamond on the 805 & 804 are the most dramatic changes (unless a 50¢ chrome ring counts ).

B&W needs new press and attention to gain new converts which they will get by declaring a new line (when it's more smoke and mirrors than an actual new line of speakers) but I just don't see anything for current *800D series owners.

*Of course the 805 & 804 are truly a real improvement since they were almost not real 800 series sans the diamond.

[sikoniko]

The multiple use of magnets on a driver is interesting though, as this reminds me of the Focal Utopia range with the Power Flower magnet arrangment on their mid.
Did B&W explain a bit about the multiple magnet structure they use?
From your post seems to me your saying four magnets on the mid driver, and two magnets on woofers.
Just curious what this also means for the 805 and also 804.

Cheers
orb

Fst is unchanged. The other two are.

[KyaDawn]

This was my fear a little over a year ago when I replaced my mains (803Ds moved to rears) with 802Ds and my HTM2D with a HTM1D. I was concerned that B&W was going to replace (as in redesign (maybe a diamond mid or something dramatic) and retool) the 800's with a new line soon. My fears have be annulled because this is just a very minor tweaking of the line. If anything reducing the lineup and going Diamond on the 805 & 804 are the most dramatic changes (unless a 50¢ chrome ring counts ).

B&W needs new press and attention to gain new converts which they will get by declaring a new line (when it's more smoke and mirrors than an actual new line of speakers) but I just don't see anything for current *800D series owners.

*Of course the 805 & 804 are truly a real improvement since they were almost not real 800 series sans the diamond.

Yes, I agree, and I think you made a good choice on the 802Ds and HTM1D! :T

[Orb]

Fst is unchanged. The other two are.

Thanks,
sorry but I am a bit confused now.
Are you saying the FST mid do not use multiple magnets?
And not sure what you mean by the other two are.

Also 805 does not use FST, so does that mean it is using either multiple magnets or dual on its mid-bass?

Thanks
Orb

[sikoniko]

Thanks,
sorry but I am a bit confused now.
Are you saying the FST mid do not use multiple magnets?
And not sure what you mean by the other two are.

Also 805 does not use FST, so does that mean it is using either multiple magnets or dual on its mid-bass?

Thanks
Orb

I know the least about the 805 diamond. I know the phase plug matches the rest of the series. They still like the sealed method they used previously and they feel there is a trade off.

In regards to the fst, it is identical to that which is in the s series. Both the diamond tweeter and the low freq speakers have been reengineered. The bass drivers now incorporate dual magnets and the diamon has four.

[Orb]

Thanks for the clarification Sikoniko I think I needed more coffee today ,
ok so they have not done a similar thing to the Focal Utopia range that uses multiple magnets on the mid-range driver.
With my lack of knowledge I would had thought there would be more benefits on the midrange than tweeter; just going by what Focal has done.

Cheers
Orb

[William]

Just another rambling thought about the "new" line. It's likely that because of the state of the economy a decision was made not to do a complete overhaul (since this would require expensive retooling in a soft retail market) and just do an update. Marketing probably approached engineering and asked what kind tweaks could be made that would allow B&W to plausibly market the 800 as a new line while retaining much of the current hardware and tooling. This line could very well be an interim that will be completely replaced in about 3 years. I'd bet that R&D is working hard to prefect a Diamond midrange to complement the tweeter and replace the getting old and making it's way down the series FST. A good indicator might be if the Nautilus gets an updated with Diamond tweeters and mids by CEDA.

[dan87951]

FYI - The CM line uses Mundorf capacitors in its cross over network..

I think most of this is marketing claims and no real change. I agree I bet many couldn't tell the difference between a blind test but you sure will be feeling the difference in your wallet! I'm skipping this round of so called "upgrades".