Speaker range-room size combinations (802D, 803D, 805s)

[zele]

A couple of days ago I had the following equipment delivered to my house for demo purpose:
Speakers:802D, 803D, 805s
Electronics:Classe CA-2200, CP-500, CDP-102

I demoed them in the following two rooms:
Living room: 8m x 5m (appr. 26 feet x 16 feet)
Study: 5m x 3m (appr. 16 feet x 10 feet)
The speakers were positioned roughly symmetrically along the longer wall in case of booth rooms.

Experience: it was quite interesting. In the living room the 802Ds were terrific of course with very balanced sound, bass sometimes rattling the sofa underneath me, extending so deep with the right tunes. The 803D's somehow did not sound right, the real deep bass notes were missing, yet the upper bass notes seemed overpresented. The 805s sounded also balanced, but of course quite lost in the room, as one might expect.
After this we moved the 803D's and the 805s' to the study. The 803D's sounded extremely boomy, although until now I thought there's no such a thing for me as too much bass. We just had to turn it off after a very short run, it was so bad. Then came the surprise part for the day. The 805s were connected and after like 10 sec there was an involuntary "wow" remark made by both me and my wife. They sang with such musicality, with so much bass yet with so beautiful mids and highs right from the first note that we said we must have them for the study, no matter what we plan for the living room. To have the ultimate bass I might need to add a sub too, but apart from the real deep bass notes and maybe due to special, untreated room acustics the 805s did sound better than the 802D's in the living room.

So I thought I had to share this experience with people, searching for the right speaker for the right room. My feeling is that speaker manufacturers should publish recommended room sizes in their specification sheets with a warning that unless someone is willing to do serious room acustics conditioning they should not select speakers out of the recommended range because the sound will be too thin or too heavy regarding bass. And as far as the high frequencies are concerned, it appears I'm personally not so sensitive about them, but if B&W manufactured the entire 800 line-up with diamond tweeters that would take care of that concern too.

Finally, for those that are still browsing or in the future will be browsing these pages for hints about room sizes and recommended speaker ranges, what is your experience? Please share with us.

[mjb]

I have a pair of 802d in a room about 18x12 and they sound absolutely superb in all respects. I agree with what you're saying regarding speaker size vs. room size, but wall type, flooring, furniture, curtains, etc, etc, will always have a big effect on the percieved response too.

[zele]

I have a pair of 802d in a room about 18x12 and they sound absolutely superb in all respects. I agree with what you're saying regarding speaker size vs. room size, but wall type, flooring, furniture, curtains, etc, etc, will always have a big effect on the percieved response too.

Well, you room is 35% bigger than my study, I guess that counts too, but of course the shape and interior finishing of the room will also have a big effect.

And maybe the 802D would have sounded much better than the 803D in my Study, unfortunately I didn't get the chance to try that due to the weight of the 802D's and the difficult shape of the staircase those speakers should have been dragged through.

[Birdy]

I have a pair of 802d in a room about 18x12 and they sound absolutely superb in all respects. I agree with what you're saying regarding speaker size vs. room size, but wall type, flooring, furniture, curtains, etc, etc, will always have a big effect on the percieved response too.

I might move soon and could have a +/_ dedicated room of 5,5 X 4,75M (18 feet X 15,6), floor in wood, ceiling a bit higher than usual in europe ( old house)

What do you think, too small for a pair of 802d?

Birdy

[wettou]

I might move soon and could have a +/_ dedicated room of 5,5 X 4,75M (18 feet X 15,6), floor in wood, ceiling a bit higher than usual in europe ( old house) What do you think, too small for a pair of 802d? Birdy

My room it 18 by 19 and the 802D sing:T

[beden1]

There are so many variables that affect this kind of demo results, but, my room measurements are approximately 39'L, by 18'W, with 24' ceilings, and I have not found the same results as you regarding the 803Ds. I currently have 803Ds L/R fronts, HTM2D center, and 703 surrounds. I also use a CP-500 for stereo. The 803Ds are not thin nor boomy, but are tight with authority in the bass, as are my 703s and HTM2D. The mid and upper bass ranges and the highs are, IMO, one of the 803Ds greatest stengths.

Judging from the too strong of a bass response you were feeling from the 802Ds, I would have thought the 803Ds would have hit the bullseye. The 805s in your larger room would be lost IMO.

You may want to try and audition the 803S for your larger room, as this may be your ultimate solution, particularly if you really liked the 805S.

One thing I have found with the 803Ds, is that they really shine with ample power. That's why I upgraded my amps to the CAM-350s, and I am very pleased with the results.

[zele]

Judging from the too strong of a bass response you were feeling from the 802Ds, I would have thought the 803Ds would have hit the bullseye. The 805s in your larger room would be lost IMO.

You may want to try and audition the 803S for your larger room, as this may be your ultimate solution, particularly if you really liked the 805S.

The 802D was not too strong, just very deep reaching. It had a very balanced sound range and it shook the sofa without actually being too much in the bass notes. I actually loved it, but then I'm quite bass oriented. Nevertheless I do think about 803s, but mostly for price reason. The living room is a no brainer for me: if I decide the spend a higher sum I will go for the 802D, if not I will get the 803s. For me the bigger headache is the Study room. I loved the 805s, it really delivered what it was designed to deliver in terms of frequencies, but it was just a little thin with the deepest bass frequencies, so the option is to buy the 805s and maybe later add a subwoofer in order to have a more complete sonic picture (but then adding a subwoofer can be a nightmare if seamless sonic performance is the objective), or risk going for the 804s without actually trying them (the dealer did not have them on stock).

[beden1]

I was also thinking that if you are just setting up a two channel stereo system, you will not be able to incorporate a sub woofer using the CP-500. This pre-amp (and most pre-amps) does not enable you to use a sub. You will have to get into a pre-pro or a receiver that enables sub/LFE outputs.

The other thing you need to recognze, is that if you're not used to a high end sound, music can sometimes sound thin in spots due to a lack of distortion. The smoother less colored sound you heard using these components and speakers, is more of a flat response, and is one that takes time to appreciate.

If you were not as sensitive to the high frequency sounds delivered from either of the diamond or S tweeters, then you can really save some money going the 800S series route. A very good home theater setup would include 803S fronts, HTM3S center speaker, and 805S surrounds. You could get a decent pre-pro and like a Classe 5200 five channel amp and call it a day.

[beden1]

The 802D was not too strong, just very deep reaching. It had a very balanced sound range and it shook the sofa without actually being too much in the bass notes. I actually loved it, but then I'm quite bass oriented. Nevertheless I do think about 803s, but mostly for price reason. The living room is a no brainer for me: if I decide the spend a higher sum I will go for the 802D, if not I will get the 803s. For me the bigger headache is the Study room. I loved the 805s, it really delivered what it was designed to deliver in terms of frequencies, but it was just a little thin with the deepest bass frequencies, so the option is to buy the 805s and maybe later add a subwoofer in order to have a more complete sonic picture (but then adding a subwoofer can be a nightmare if seamless sonic performance is the objective), or risk going for the 804s without actually trying them (the dealer did not have them on stock).

Without a doubt, the 802D is a great speaker for a stand alone two channel stereo system. I would actually prefer the 800Ds in this situation. But, there are upstream costs to take into consideration, particularly if you expect to expand into home theater. With these speakers, and getting into home theater, you will have to consider the extra costs for an upgraded center channel speaker in an HTM2D or and HTM1D, more power requirements, and the extra cost of better surrounds that include the diamond tweeter for the unltimate match.

Going the 800S series route, particularly if you expect to finish out a home theater system, really makes a lot of sense from a bang-for-the-buck stand point.

For your study, subs are not all that tough to incorporate. I prefer two subs for balance, but, todays receivers and pre-pros, as well as the subs from like Velodyne that automatically calibrate them in the room and have control adjustments, make it fun to work them into your system. This should be a lesser of concerns, than for you to really map out your needs and costs involved now, instead of down the road.

[zele]

Without a doubt, the 802D is a great speaker for a stand alone two channel stereo system. I would actually prefer the 801Ds in this situation. But, there are upstream costs to take into consideration, particularly if you expect to expand into home theater. With these speakers, and getting into home theater, you will have to consider the extra costs for an upgraded center channel speaker in an HTM2D or and HTM1D, more power requirements, and the extra cost of better surrounds that include the diamond tweeter for the unltimate match.

Going the 800S series route, particularly if you expect to finish out a home theater system, really makes a lot of sense from a bang-for-the-buck stand point.

For your study, subs are not all that tough to incorporate. I prefer two subs for balance, but, todays receivers and pre-pros, as well as the subs from like Velodyne that automatically calibrate them in the room and have control adjustments, make it fun to work them into your system. This should be a lesser of concerns, than for you to really map out your needs and costs involved now, instead of down the road.

It's exactly the financials pushing me towards some compromise ( isn't it the case for 99,9% of us). And it's exactly the reason why the sonic qualities of the 805s came as a revelation to me, being such a pleasant surprise that one can build a decent system from realistic sums of money. Proper combined 2ch/HT systems based on 802D as front speaker could not be really set up below 40TEUR.
Back to the 805s, If I go with them I'm thinking about adding Velodyne DD10, but still quite concerned how they would blend with the 805s. So far I did not hear a decent 2ch system where the sub did not stand out in one way or the other. Or maybe I didn't listen to enough systems, but nevertheless, it is often trial and error. In this aspect the 804s can be a solution, of course not reaching so far as a sub but definetely a more coherent sonic performance.

[beden1]

It's exactly the financials pushing me towards some compromise ( isn't it the case for 99,9% of us). And it's exactly the reason why the sonic qualities of the 805s came as a revelation to me, being such a pleasant surprise that one can build a decent system from realistic sums of money. Proper combined 2ch/HT systems based on 802D as front speaker could not be really set up below 40TEUR.
Back to the 805s, If I go with them I'm thinking about adding Velodyne DD10, but still quite concerned how they would blend with the 805s. So far I did not hear a decent 2ch system where the sub did not stand out in one way or the other. Or maybe I didn't listen to enough systems, but nevertheless, it is often trial and error. In this aspect the 804s can be a solution, of course not reaching so far as a sub but definetely a more coherent sonic performance.

The DD10 is a great sub for it's size, and that is why I prefer two subs for balance. Remember that you will need a receiver or a pre-pro in order to incorporate a sub into your system. A stereo pre-amplifier in most cases will not enable you to use a sub.

You should also look into the Velodyne SC (Contractor) Series of subs. I have their SC-15's in two of my systems. You can get two of their SC-10s along with the amp, for near the same money as one DD10. Not many people have used these as they are somewhat new, but since I have had them for about a year now, the sales managers in two of the dealers where I shop, have both set them up in their own systems and love them as much as I do. (and, this after both of them initially said I was crazy for swapping them out for my single DD Series subs).

You also may want to consider the 803S for your study over the 804S. IMO, it's just a better all around speaker over the 804S. But again, that's just my opinion.

But, the 805S with subs may prove to be the best of both worlds in that room.

[kmcheng]

Remember that you will need a receiver or a pre-pro in order to incorporate a sub into your system. A stereo pre-amplifier in most cases will not enable you to use a sub.

Actually, you don't necessarily need a receiver to connect a subwoofer. Some subwoofers, such as B&W's own PV1, has speaker-level input. You would just need to hook up the sub to the amplifier the same way you hook up your L/R speakers. It is kind of tricky to bundle the sub's speaker wires with the L/R speaker wires and attach both securely to the binding posts, but it can be done. You can then play with crossover and volume on the sub's dials. You can download the owner's manual of the PV1 from B&W's website just for reference.

You also may want to consider the 803S for your study over the 804S. IMO, it's just a better all around speaker over the 804S. But again, that's just my opinion.

But, the 805S with subs may prove to be the best of both worlds in that room.

I was comparing the 804S vs. 805S + PV1 when I decided to upgrade to the 800 series. I personally like the 805S much better and was not too impressed with the 804S after hearing the 805S (without a sub). The 805S sounded more detailed, open and effortless in my audition. Of course, that is just my taste. The 805S ended up costing me more money because I also had to buy the stands and two subwoofers, but I haven't regretted that decision at all.

By the way, I really love my PV1 subwoofers. However, I also think there are cheaper, and probably better options out there. The 805S alone gave me countless hours of joy by themselves, so I don't think you will miss out much by not purchasing a subwoofer right away.

[beden1]

Actually, you don't necessarily need a receiver to connect a subwoofer. Some subwoofers, such as B&W's own PV1, has speaker-level input. You would just need to hook up the sub to the amplifier the same way you hook up your L/R speakers. It is kind of tricky to bundle the sub's speaker wires with the L/R speaker wires and attach both securely to the binding posts, but it can be done. You can then play with crossover and volume on the sub's dials. You can download the owner's manual of the PV1 from B&W's website just for reference.

I wasn't aware of that. I wonder how that works when the main speakers are still getting the full signal?

Thanks

[Alpha231]

You can also hook a sub up for two channel using the left and right outputs of the integrated or stereo receiver. If you guys are interested in a good sub for two channel consider looking into the REL line of subwoofers...

[kmcheng]

I wasn't aware of that. I wonder how that works when the main speakers are still getting the full signal?

Thanks

In theory the output of main speakers would roll off at lower frequencies (~60Hz in the case of the 805S). If one sets the cross-over in the sub at ~70Hz then the sub will pick up all the lower-frequency output and the user can adjust the volume on the sub to his liking. With a full range speaker, e.g. 804S, one would set the cross-over in the sub at a lower frequency, say at 40 Hz, where the bass output on the 804S starts to roll off.

In reality this is very much a trial and error thing. A lot of it depends on the room dimensions, room treatment, placement of the sub, number of subs (1 vs. 2), furniture, flooring, etc. Incorporating a sub into a two-channel system for critical listening is a major time investment and takes a lot of patience. It took me a few months to adjust things to my liking, and during those months I kept telling myself that the 805S are so good already so why did I put myself through all the hassle. [However, for HT it is an absolute blast to have two subwoofers hooked up.]

Another note on the connection method that Alpha231 suggested: Some subwoofers disable their cross-over and volume controls when they are connected at the line level (i.e. using a "coax" subwoofer cable). One example is the PV1, where the cross-over and volume controls are only active when connected with the speaker wires. The idea might be that if the line level is used then the processor is doing the signal distribution and hence that function is not needed in the subwoofer. I am not familiar with the REL products, so I am not sure if it applies to their subwoofers as well.

[beden1]

Thank you for your explanation. I'm trying to remember now whether my Velodyne DD-12 or DD-15 also had a way to connect your front speakers directly to them (the sub woofer), and the sub is then connected to the front speaker outs of the pre-amp, for example. Then you set the crossover, and the sub crontrols the LFE.

I don't have these subs anymore so I can't check.