Help need for a B&W set-up (803S, 804s, sub?, amp?)

[sn7]

I am planning on gradually building a good B&W based system. I have a big room (25' x 15' x 12'). I will be using it for 50% movies and 50% music. I do not ramp up my volume too high. I would like to have a good cinema surround feel and still enjoy the clarity in my music.

I am planning on:
Fronts - Either 803S or 804S
Center - HTM3s
Rear - 804S or SCMS
Subwoofer - optional and not decided
Amp/Pre-amp/Receiver - HAVE NO IDEA! - want it to be convenient for this set up and also have the ability to use something like the onkyo's audessey eq.

I have a few of questions to start with -
1. If I get a sub - something like ACI Maestro - is there still an improvement with 803S over 804S for fronts?
2. Is there any value added by using 804s over SCMS for surrounds?
3. How do I power this whole 5.1 system - I have no clue - so please be patient in explaining. Would a simple Marantz SR8002 work well? I have an onkyo sr606 right now but from what i have read the power is not enough to get the 803s to sound well.
4. Any other suggestions are more than welcome - I really want to take my time to decide before spending so much - and may build it step-wise

Thanks

[htsteve]

sn7,

First of all, welcome to the forum. There is a great amount of good information here.

As to your system, you have decided to go right to a very nice speaker setup. The 800 series is outstanding. It does all things very well. Soundstage, details, dynamics, etc.

Below are your questions, and my opinions.

1. If I get a sub - something like ACI Maestro - is there still an improvement with 803S over 804S for fronts?

A sub will be especially handy for movies. I have 802D's and also a very nice sub. The integration of the sub in my system is quite good. For your long term plan, a sub is definitely recommended. You also have a large room. You'll need plenty of bass to fill it.

2. Is there any value added by using 804s over SCMS for surrounds?

As I have 804S's for rears now, that would be my answer for the long range plan. I definitely recommend tower speakers for rears. With the advent of uncompressed audio tracks on Blu Ray's, having as capable as speaker system to take advantage of that is definitely something to consider.

3. How do I power this whole 5.1 system - I have no clue - so please be patient in explaining. Would a simple Marantz SR8002 work well? I have an onkyo sr606 right now but from what i have read the power is not enough to get the 803s to sound well.

You have read correctly. A reciever will not have the proper power for the 800 series. The Onkyo's amp definitely will not (sorry). A separate outboard amp is pretty much a must for speakers of this level. The 800 series love current and only a dedicated amp will do the job. Ultimately, separates (pre-amp and amp) are the way to go here. I would spend money here before spending money on 804S's for rear speakers.

4. Any other suggestions are more than welcome - I really want to take my time to decide before spending so much - and may build it step-wise

My opinion, but here is the order of spend in your system to get you started building a great system.

Front three speakers (your choices are quite excellent)
Dedicated 5 channel amp. A Rotel 1575 would do be a nice place to start. You can use the Onkyo as a pre-amp for now. Ultimately, a dedicated pre-amp is the preferred choice.
Rear speakers (like the 705's)
Sub


Hope this helps.

[Horacio]

Hi.

I focus on 2-channel and haven't experimented with 5.1, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. However, I do have 804s and a sub and have tried a couple different amps, and have an even larger room (30x16), so I might be able to help some.

First question is how much money do you want to spend?

Either 804s or 803s would be fine for fronts, and both would benefit from a sub. The sub is not a definite need, but neither speaker can get much lower than 30 or 35 Hz and a sub helps. I have a REL Storm III, which has dual inputs for stereo and HT, and runs for about $1000 used on Audiogon.

In my experience choosing the right amp was important. I first used Rotel RB1080, which was good, but then moved on to McIntosh MC275 (tubes) which sounded MUCH better (not so surprising considering the price difference).

If I were to build a system and use it 50% for music and 50% for HT, I would focus my spend on L/C/R speakers and their amps. If budget permits, a sub. Surrounds would be very cheap (in comparison). Processor is tricky for me as I haven't tried any. Then of course that's a 2-channel-person's view!!!

My 2 cents. I hope it helps.

Horacio

[Hammie]

I agree with everything htsteve said except that you cannot use the Onkyo 606 as a pre/pro since it doesn't have any 5.1/7.1 pre outs.

[htsteve]

I agree with everything htsteve said except that you cannot use the Onkyo 606 as a pre/pro since it doesn't have any 5.1/7.1 pre outs.

Obviusly, a very good point. I made an assumption that it had pre-outs. In order to get a good system started, a used Rotel reciver or used pre-amp (like a 1068 or 1069) would be quite good sound wise and have pre-outs for the outboard amp.


Hope this helps.

[sn7]

Thanks a lot for the input.
Well - I guess my question with reagards to 803S adn 804s is that - Is 803S + sub better than 804S + sub? Looks like the answer is a clear yes - or is it a close call?
From what I have read - rotel are a good value for money while mcintosh tend to do somewhat better with 800 series. Could I take a 5 channel mcintosh amp (like Mc205) and a cheaper pre/pro. Going with 252 or 402 becomes somewhat expensive for a 803s (front) + 804s (rear) system. The other option is to get rotel amp and pre/pro. Considering the same power from rotel and mcintosh makes them 'sing' differently - makes me think that Emotiva may not be a good option. Inially I was trying to use an all in one receiver (which would be convenient and wife friendly) - one of the Denon or Onkyo. Any input on that front?

[Hammie]

I'm using a Denon 3808CI receiver with my 804s's and HTM3s. Does it do a good job? Yes! Can I do better with an external amp? Definitely.

I will probably go with Emotiva since it will give me something at a WAF price point while I work on my wife to get a Rotel. I personally like the sound of the Rotel 1575 and B&W 804's versus a McIntosh & B&W 804 pairing. Just my personal opinion, of course.

[htsteve]

sn7,

Lot's of good questions. First, the receiver vs. separates option. The nice thing about a receiver is that it is the pre-amp, amp and tuner all in one chassis. Separates are just that, pre-amp, amp and tuner in three pieces. From a wife perspective, IMO, the remote for either the receiver or the pre-amp will go along way to making the setup simple to operate. The Rotel remotes are pretty good. I've seen the Harmony remotes in action. I like those very much.

As to 804S+sub vs. 803S+sub, my reply would be that the 803S will be a bit fuller and overall a better speaker. However, the jump isn't really big. I would recommend spending the difference in cost on the electronics.

I've owned Rotel and currently own Mac. The Rotel is one of the best bang for the buck, high performance companies out there. They work very nicely with B&W. You would be very happy going from the Onkyo to Rotel. Mac is definitely a very nice step up, as you would expect for the prices on Mac's (even used). The Mac's do everything extremely well, are built like tanks and, yes, they look very cool.

I have 802D's, HTM2D and 804S's. Theses were powered by an MC205. And powered very well. The results were quite spectacular. I then bought a 252 for the 802D's. A truly wonderful combination. I can tell you that the 802D's are A LOT more power hungry than either the 804S/803S. Any of the Mac amps mentioned will drive your planned speakers beautifully. All 800 series speakers love lots of current. And that's an area that Mac's deliver (not that the Rotels do not deliver lot's of good current, but the Mac's deliver TON's of current).

Your idea of a Mac 205 and a 'cheaper' pre-amp is a very good one. Defintely worth considering if you have the budget.

I also see you mention 804S's as rears. Long term, I love that idea. Short term as you are building your system up, here is something to consider. I had N804's, and HTM1 and 705's as rears, prior to my current set-up. The N804's and HTM1 are the predecessors to the 804S and HTM3S. The 705's (which I believe are about $1500/pair) matched quite nicely sonically. This might be a very nice initial option for you for rear speakers. The difference in cost can be applied to the electronics, especially if you go with something like a Mac 205.

One other consideration would be to find a used pair of 805S's and use them as rears. Again, you would have high performance rear speakers and spend less money in that area, so it can be spent on the electronics.


Hope this helps.

[ninja12]

I am planning on gradually building a good B&W based system. I have a big room (25' x 15' x 12'). I will be using it for 50% movies and 50% music. I do not ramp up my volume too high. I would like to have a good cinema surround feel and still enjoy the clarity in my music.

I am planning on:
Fronts - Either 803S or 804S
Center - HTM3s
Rear - 804S or SCMS
Subwoofer - optional and not decided
Amp/Pre-amp/Receiver - HAVE NO IDEA! - want it to be convenient for this set up and also have the ability to use something like the onkyo's audessey eq.

I have a few of questions to start with -
1. If I get a sub - something like ACI Maestro - is there still an improvement with 803S over 804S for fronts?
2. Is there any value added by using 804s over SCMS for surrounds?
3. How do I power this whole 5.1 system - I have no clue - so please be patient in explaining. Would a simple Marantz SR8002 work well? I have an onkyo sr606 right now but from what i have read the power is not enough to get the 803s to sound well.
4. Any other suggestions are more than welcome - I really want to take my time to decide before spending so much - and may build it step-wise


Thanks

Q1 Answer:
There is very little difference between the 803S and the 804S. The 803S is a little better in the bass area. Since you will have a sub, that will not matter because the sub will be taking care of the low end sound reinforcement for you. So, you can get by with the 804S and a sub. I don't think you will really hear much of a difference between the 804S and the 803S, and you can save some $ in the process.

Q2 Answer:
Tough question to answer. It really gets down to placement and your seating. If you have multiple seats and or multiple rows, I would go with the SCMS. You want your surrounds mounted about two feet above all listening positions so that nothing can obstruct the sound. If you can place the 804S in that manner then that would be good. However, you should check to see if your dealer has an upgrade policy. If your dealer does, then you can start with the SCMS and see if they meet your needs. If they don't, then you can upgrade to the 804S; but, make sure you can place them in a way that the sound is not being obstructed i.e. they are not firing into the back of your seating area.

Q3 Answer:
Out of all of the speakers that you listed, the one with the least amount of power are the SCMS. They have 120W. I don't see many AVRs on the market that can produce 120W with all channels driven. That being said, I would tend to lean towards a pre-amp and a amp. You should try to find an amp with 200+ watts. B&W loves power and the more the merrier. Mcintosh MC205 or Rotel RMB-1575 would be good places to start.

Other Suggestions:
The biggest bang for the buck that you will get is investing in some room acoustics. You can spend as much money as you wish; but, if your room, has not been treated, it will be like throwing money out the window. So, if you need to scale back on the electronics in order to get some room treatments, then you should probably do that because it doesn't matter how much you spend on electronics, they are not going to fix your room.

I hope I have provided you with some good starting points.

[sn7]

Thanks, I guess i should save some and start with 804S (L,R), HTM-3S (C), a sub (so that I dont miss 803S) with a cheaper pre/pro like onkyo PR-SC886 and good amp like the rsp-1575. later on, to complete 5.1, I can consider adding another set of 804S or, if I miss 803S - I can add them and move the 804S to the rear. Until then, I will help my existing tiny (and very wife friendly) kef3005Se and Onkyo 606 motivate me to save for the big boys. After auditioning a bunch of speakers I did like the sound from B&W, I do prefer 800 series over the 700 series noticably - could be just a frame of mind - but I absolutely loved them. I was considering 805S earlier but looking at the prices of the stands, I decided to go with the floor standing - so that more money goes into the actual speaker.
Ninja, I will definitely keep your advise in mind - especially now that we will be moving into a new home - it may be easier to work on the room treatment.
Thanks a lot for all your input - and more is always welcome.

[emig5m]

Other Suggestions:
The biggest bang for the buck that you will get is investing in some room acoustics. You can spend as much money as you wish; but, if your room, has not been treated, it will be like throwing money out the window. So, if you need to scale back on the electronics in order to get some room treatments, then you should probably do that because it doesn't matter how much you spend on electronics, they are not going to fix your room.

I can vouch for this. I went to purchase a set of mint one year old B&W 803D's for a phenomenal price of $4800 locally and walked away because they didn't sound as good as my 600 series 683's did....not even close. Speaker/listening positions and room acoustics mean everything. $18,000 in gear in an improperly setup room couldn't beat out $3,500 in equipment with the time to carefully set it up. I bought a little decorative carpet from walmart and threw it up on a bare area of wall behind the listening position and that alone helped one problem I was having...

[sn7]

Thanks for the inout emig5m, I am considering some DIY panels using owens corning 703 and area rugs to address those problems. I am however not very knowledgable in that and hope to gain some pointers from the internet. I am aslo looking into sound anchors - but am wondering if there are cheaper options around available.

[ZX10 Guy]

I have pretty much the exact system you are pondering.

Here are a couple of pics of the system:




I concur with the feelings that you're not going to gain anything substantial with getting a 803S versus an 804S. The only time I can see the 803S to be at an advantage is if you are running a two channel system without a sub.

I also agree with the advice to address any acoustical deficiencies with your room as one of your priorities. I did so in my room and it made a huge difference.

With respect to running a sub or not, I am of the opinion a sub properly integrated will be much better than running these speakers full range. For one thing, the proper position for your speakers isn't always the best location for bass performance. In fact, it's more the rule than the exception. Running all speakers at full range can also lead to phase cancellation issues. Finally, a sub is better suited to drive deeper in the bass frequency range and can pressurize the room better. This in turn will increase sound quality from your speakers as the woofers are not being driven past linear operation along with your amp having to strain less in driving the speakers.

The decision to go with 804S for rear surrounds depends on how much further you want to eek out the performance in your system. If you are hitting the edge of your budget, I would sacrifice the rears. This is coming from me where I am running N804 rears. Also, if you do a lot of multi-channel high res audio listening, then having the 804S for the rears would be beneficial. Overall, you would want to as much as possible have all your speakers identical. This includes the center channel. If I were to do my purchasing over again, I would have bought an N804 for my center instead of the N HTM1.