803S + HTM3S + SCMS - Need amp!

[scanido]

So that time of year is around again when i finally get to indulge in an upgrade after a long year of saving! I am looking at getting an all-in-one multi-channel amp to power my 803S + HTM3S + future SCMS speaker setup and finally do them justice and free them from the Rotel RSX-1057 that is powering them now.

The RSX-1057 was fine in my bedroom and actually sounded very good, but now I am moving on up to a new house and they will be located in larger 18' X 15' room open to above and I feel my receiver would be to puny to power my speakers well.

My number one objective for this amp is to play music and movies LOUD and CLEAN. Sound Quality is the utmost importance.

Having said that here is my short list of amps that i am considering within my price range. I would be still using my RSX-1057 as a pre-amp until next year.

1. Two Rotel RB-1092 and RB-1091 (500w X 5). $7100 MSRP

2. McIntosh MC205 (200w X 5). $6000 MSRP

3. Classe CA-5200 (200w X 5) $9000 MSRP

I haven't heard any of these amps and hopefully I get some insight from this board on what they think of these amps. The Rotel is looking to have a great dollar per watt cost than the others and the 500w a channel is enticing.

I did some reading on the MAC and it really outputs close to 300w x 5!!

Which option would you go with and WHY????

[Race Car Driver]

Id take the Mac because I dont know how you can compare rotel to mcintosh or classe.

Now why the mac over the classe, never hearing either, the only justifcation I can give is that 200 watts from a Mac should be be enough power for 803s, htm3s and scms, why spend 1.5 x that on the classe? Thats all i got. Maybe someone will tell me im thinking all wrong.

[joetama]

WOW... Is that the new price for that mac?

If so, that isn't too bad at all really...

[RebelMan]

1. Definitely NOT. This combination is a musical dog compared to either the McIntosh or Classe'.

2. Only if price is your primary concern over the more expensive 3rd option.

3. I would recommend the CA-5200 (but you probably guessed I would say that) . I have two reasons. A) It has more horsepower than your 2nd option and will meet all of your requirements. B) It will mate better with the SSP-800 which is something to think about for your plans next year.

[Mig17]

How about 6b sst at around below 4000 USD

[style]

ampli

@scanido,

I too the same speakers (803s front, htm3s and 805s rear).
Electronic:
Rotel
Rsp 1068
front rotel RB1092
center RB1091
rear RB1092.
I utilise my system 95% only for movie and the Rotel are good. nothing to say.
I want too change my ampli (pre-out and power)
In my head the Classè ca5200 is the best.
MC205 --> in HomeCinema is not the best Sorry if do you have 5xMc501 with perampli (like mx136 -> overpriced for what give) is another planet but in Switzerland the Mc207-205 is not a good solution (for movie) --> to much problem.
Personaly I think to buy a CA3200 for front and center, one Rotel RB1092 (in my posses) for the rear and for pre at first time a denon4308 or so like that
for Hd format--> Anthem D2 will be the better solution but the version with microphon inside for auto setup is available for £10500.-!!! in europa (Switzerland)
the new Classè SSP800 have a hdmi (ssp600 don't have..) but the priced is
not available.
My room is 10 meters x 6 meters, but only half approx. Is my ht system.
However, the sound is extended to all 10 metres of room ....
In place from the MC205 see the Bryston or Krell but if the you can go with the Classè.
Hey the Rotel I like a lot but when I think of combo (preampli and power) Classè connected with XLR cables (although only 2 meters long) is a "plan" above. (XLR more dynamic in sound vs. RCA interconnetcs cables)
(I do not know if you use your system for music or movie)

What do you think?
greetings from Switzerland.
Omar

[Minardi2]

I have much the same setup except I'm using DS7s in a 6.1 configuration (couldn't justify DS8s or SCMs for the price difference when purchasing the speaker suite).

My six channel Krell Showcase drives them all with ease. They've since replaced it with the S-1500 which I haven't heard. I did audition a Classe CA-3200 and quite honestly was surprised at how close the Krell was, and in fact was a bit disappointed that the Classe didn't distinguish itself more (I'm sure I'll get flamed for that statement). In blind testing I coud always pick out which amp I was listening to (Classe was a smidge less bright) but not enough to justify the cost to upgrade.

I have no experience with Mac stuff, but if you have and you like it and its appearance, then the 205 would seem to be your best bet. However I echo Rebelman's statement that if an SSP-800 is in your future, there would likely be some synergies in running an all Classe setup.

Good luck.

[Mig17]

I think Classe is not good as Rotel in HT

[RobP]

I think Classe is not good as Rotel in HT

Actually quite the opposite

[scanido]

Great responses folks!

To answer a few of your questions:

I tried a bryston 4BST about 2 years ago on my 804S and found the sound not to be lively and sounded cold. It played fairly loud but from what i remember there was not much emotion. It could be the Arcam AVP700 I was running as a pre-amp, but i plan not to pursue this one anymore.

Reason for including Rotel in the mix is because in my eyes for around the same price range I get 5 X 500w.

The price of the MC205 is correct. It's great that the CAD is on par with the greenback!

[scanido]

I'll try to keep this short and to the point (hopefully).

OK so last night i went to my local dealer to demo the McIntosh MC205 VS the Rotel, unfortunately they did not carry Classe. When i got there they had the MC207, which is essentially a MC205 minus 2 channels, however they did not have either a Rotel RB-1092 or RB-1091. I asked the sales rep for the reason for this and he said they haven't had many customers requiring about them and they were just not popular so they never had them for demo. They did however have the RB-1072 so we used that for comparison. We setup the MC207 and RB-1072 with an McIntosh MX135 and had a McIntosh MS300 music server providing source. Speakers were B&W 804S. Each setup at the same volume setting. We played various songs (Intro, No One) from Alicia Keys' new album AS I AM, which is fantastically recorded BTW.

First up was the RB-1072.
We set the volume to a comfortable level. I cannot remember the setting off hand. First impression, great punch and fullness from the bass on the song No One. The mid's didn't really stand out and it blended well with the highs. The high's however sounded brittle and scratchy. It was actually slightly bright for my tastes with the 804S. We then upped the volume to levels where I could imagine playing my speakers, definitely close to 100db. At this level the sound didn't sound close to how it sounded at moderate levels. The bass now sounded compressed and the highs were intolerable and not as smooth. If I were to listen at moderate to high levels then this amp would have been fine but when i really wanted to crank it, it did not deliver, which was my one objective. To play LOUD and CLEAN. Although we did not have the powerful RB1092, the sales rep assured me the sonic signature was similar.

Next up the McIntosh MC207
Right off the bat, I have to admit the looks of the MC207 in my opinion bettered the Rotel. Something about those blue watt meters! I tried to keep this out of consideration throughout the session. Anyways, so we put on the same song, the Intro first and then No One. The opening of the Alicia Keys album was FANTASTIC! It sounded much more 3D like then the RB-1072. The piano notes just floated in the air and you could hear the detail surrounding each note. The dynamics of the amp was great when the song went through its paces and added more instruments. I honestly could not believe the difference I heard. I had to make sure it was the MC207 that was on and not the larger MC501's nearby. It sounded so good I told the sales rep to up the volume then to about 100db. One word (Ok maybe three words!) - Control and realism!

After this Intro I had to listen to the next song No One, at the same high volume level which is great to test out bass and is dynamic. When the bass kicked in, it was not stressed at all and sounded CLEAN. Although the sound was really loud, it was bearable. I can attribute this to the smoother sound of the tweeter. THe soundstage also was composed and did not suffer. The 3D like sound persisted. Overall I was SO impressed. I asked the Sales rep to turn it louder to see if we can stress the amp out. We got to a point where the Powergaurd lights started flickering like a Christmas tree. At this volume level, i could not stand it anymore. It was just TOO loud and I could not ever imagine listening at this level let alone for more than 2-3mins, but more importantly the amp sounded good still which I think was unbelievable!!! I loved the amp after that demo!

Overall, the MC207 SMOKED the Rotel!!! :E ;x(

I bought the MC205 on the spot, I was that impressed!!! The amp intgrated very well with the S Tweeter. The sound was balanced and smooth, yet very powerful sounding!

Now about the Classe CA-5200, the price point was just hovering over my comfort level and the looks IMO was not too my taste. To be fair, I should give the amp a demo, but i will leave it there as no one in Toronto had Rotel - MAC and Classe in the same place to warrant a FAIR comparison. I did not want to introduce different environments for auditioning. Later down the line I also did not want to invest in the upcoming SSP-800, although that processor looks very promising. Don't want to commit myself to that expense neither.

Cheers all!

[ninja12]

I'll try to keep this short and to the point (hopefully).

OK so last night i went to my local dealer to demo the McIntosh MC205 VS the Rotel, unfortunately they did not carry Classe. When i got there they had the MC207, which is essentially a MC205 minus 2 channels, however they did not have either a Rotel RB-1092 or RB-1091. I asked the sales rep for the reason for this and he said they haven't had many customers requiring about them and they were just not popular so they never had them for demo. They did however have the RB-1072 so we used that for comparison. We setup the MC207 and RB-1072 with an McIntosh MX135 and had a McIntosh MS300 music server providing source. Speakers were B&W 804S. Each setup at the same volume setting. We played various songs (Intro, No One) from Alicia Keys' new album AS I AM, which is fantastically recorded BTW.

First up was the RB-1072.
We set the volume to a comfortable level. I cannot remember the setting off hand. First impression, great punch and fullness from the bass on the song No One. The mid's didn't really stand out and it blended well with the highs. The high's however sounded brittle and scratchy. It was actually slightly bright for my tastes with the 804S. We then upped the volume to levels where I could imagine playing my speakers, definitely close to 100db. At this level the sound didn't sound close to how it sounded at moderate levels. The bass now sounded compressed and the highs were intolerable and not as smooth. If I were to listen at moderate to high levels then this amp would have been fine but when i really wanted to crank it, it did not deliver, which was my one objective. To play LOUD and CLEAN. Although we did not have the powerful RB1092, the sales rep assured me the sonic signature was similar.

Next up the McIntosh MC207
Right off the bat, I have to admit the looks of the MC207 in my opinion bettered the Rotel. Something about those blue watt meters! I tried to keep this out of consideration throughout the session. Anyways, so we put on the same song, the Intro first and then No One. The opening of the Alicia Keys album was FANTASTIC! It sounded much more 3D like then the RB-1072. The piano notes just floated in the air and you could hear the detail surrounding each note. The dynamics of the amp was great when the song went through its paces and added more instruments. I honestly could not believe the difference I heard. I had to make sure it was the MC207 that was on and not the larger MC501's nearby. It sounded so good I told the sales rep to up the volume then to about 100db. One word (Ok maybe three words!) - Control and realism!

After this Intro I had to listen to the next song No One, at the same high volume level which is great to test out bass and is dynamic. When the bass kicked in, it was not stressed at all and sounded CLEAN. Although the sound was really loud, it was bearable. I can attribute this to the smoother sound of the tweeter. THe soundstage also was composed and did not suffer. The 3D like sound persisted. Overall I was SO impressed. I asked the Sales rep to turn it louder to see if we can stress the amp out. We got to a point where the Powergaurd lights started flickering like a Christmas tree. At this volume level, i could not stand it anymore. It was just TOO loud and I could not ever imagine listening at this level let alone for more than 2-3mins, but more importantly the amp sounded good still which I think was unbelievable!!! I loved the amp after that demo!

Overall, the MC207 SMOKED the Rotel!!! :E ;x(

I bought the MC205 on the spot, I was that impressed!!! The amp intgrated very well with the S Tweeter. The sound was balanced and smooth, yet very powerful sounding!

Now about the Classe CA-5200, the price point was just hovering over my comfort level and the looks IMO was not too my taste. To be fair, I should give the amp a demo, but i will leave it there as no one in Toronto had Rotel - MAC and Classe in the same place to warrant a FAIR comparison. I did not want to introduce different environments for auditioning. Later down the line I also did not want to invest in the upcoming SSP-800, although that processor looks very promising. Don't want to commit myself to that expense neither.

Cheers all!

Congrats on your purchase. I have pretty much the exact same set up, as far as speakers, that you have. I have 803S fronts, HTM3S center, SCMS rear, and CCM817. Unfortunately, that was the only way that I could go to 7.1 was to install in-ceiling speakers. Anyway, I am using Rotel amps (1095 and 1080). They really sounded good. But now the sound is just off the chain since I bought the Anthem D2 processor which made a world of a difference.

Anyway, once again, congratulations and enjoy your investment because you have some nice equipment.

[Mig17]

Processors make a huge difference in sound quality

[DL86]

If you want a proper cinema experience you need as much power as you can muster. You don't want your amps clipping on loud transients. And btw those rotel amps are closer to 650W measured output.

[RebelMan]

Nice review scanido. Keep your expectations in check when you get that MC-207 home. The RSX-1057 used as a pre-amplifier is going to be a major bottle neck in your system until you are ready to upgrade it.

[RebelMan]

Processors make a huge difference in sound quality

You got that right!

[Tommy]

Mac amps are rated very conservatively. They put out 20% more power continuously. So the MC205 is basically a 240~250W amp.

[RebelMan]

If you want a proper cinema experience you need as much power as you can muster. You don't want your amps clipping on loud transients. And btw those rotel amps are closer to 650W measured output.

True but the quality of watts should always be chosen over the quantity of watts.

[scanido]

Nice review scanido. Keep your expectations in check when you get that MC-207 home. The RSX-1057 used as a pre-amplifier is going to be a major bottle neck in your system until you are ready to upgrade it.

Thanks Rebelman!

When I finally get that MC205 in and I hook it up to my 803S I will definately not expect it to sound like it did in the demo room......only better!!! j/k

I got a loong way to go to finish this setup, but the wait is definitely worth it. I'm going to wait it out until Mac comes out with a newer processor to support the latest HD sound formats. My RSX-1057 should do a decent job until then.

Next up is getting those SCMS rears.

[scanido]

Mac amps are rated very conservatively. They put out 20% more power continuously. So the MC205 is basically a 240~250W amp.

According to Ron-C over at McIntosh, the MC207/MC205 output closer to 300w if you feed them the juice on a dedicated 20amp circuit.

[Chatterbot]

Hi,

in my humble opinion noone should by such hi-price-amps without comparing them to
an Accuphase-amp.

I did in fact compare a Classé-amp with an Accuphase, and there were more than
little differences, especially bass-wise.

Just my two cents...

Greets,
G.

[RebelMan]

I did in fact compare a Classé-amp with an Accuphase, and there were more than
little differences, especially bass-wise.

Were there differences with the room, front-end and sources too? How many variables were there?

Just my $64K. :W

[beden1]

Were there differences with the room, front-end and sources too? How many variables were there?

Just my $64K. :W

RebelMan

The champion defender of Classe products. Lately it would seem thou protest too much . . . like you are now working directly for them, or Classe is providing you with tasty discounts and/or with products to demo?

Come on now and fess up. And, please email me so I can also get in on the action!

[RebelMan]

RebelMan

The champion defender of Classe products. Lately it would seem thou protest too much . . . like you are now working directly for them, or Classe is providing you with tasty discounts and/or with products to demo?

Come on now and fess up. And, please email me so I can also get in on the action!

LOL :lol:

It may look like that but that's not my intention. I see no problems with a person having a preference for one product or system over another but I do take exception to blanket statements that are missing some credibility. The reality is the differences between high quality amplifiers are usually quite subtle though there are a few, I repeat FEW, exceptions.

When overly generous reports are claimed regarding amplifiers it raises my suspicions very quickly. When conversations turn to other parts of the system involving speakers and/or pre-amplifiers/processors THEN I am more inclined to accept what's stated because these items can vary significantly. A Classe' Delta amplifier is every bit the equal in terms of bass that a Krell amplifier is according to posters that have made FAIR comparisons. When more than one variable is changed the comparison is no longer applicable.

It should go without saying that a description of the test must accompany the results to be meaningful. Who cares if you like Krell or that I like Classe'? It would be, however, helpful and more interesting to know why one is preferred to another and how the conclusions were formed. This is useful feedback, not the other. :W

beden1, if I did represent Classe' in a professional capacity I wouldn't be vocal at all. I just happen to believe and support what they do and why they do it. Stuff is built by audio lovers for audio lovers. It's a great company that became great because they make great products and offer great service. They really care about what they do and that is what matters to me the most and it's also THE REASON why they have EARNED my loyalty.

For the record I am a big fan of other brands too but my preferences lie here and I'll not be shy to voice my reasons as to why. :W

[cug]

The reality is the differences between high quality amplifiers are usually quite subtle though there are a few, I repeat FEW, exceptions.

I'd love to see you in a blind a/b trying to find out which one of two amps is your Classé M400 pair and which is my RA-1062 at moderate volume (so that the RA-1062 doesn't clip).

Not, that I doubt you might hear a difference, I'm interested in how reliable you can hear a difference with, say, 10 songs from various CDs.

I'd love to switch from Rotel to Classé (just for the look of it) but I seriously doubt the audible difference is worth the money. I will do blind tests because I might have the money if I really want to switch, but if I can avoid spending 5000k on an update because I can't reliably tell which one is running, I'd be happy too.

[RebelMan]

I'd love to see you in a blind a/b trying to find out which one of two amps is your Classé M400 pair and which is my RA-1062 at moderate volume (so that the RA-1062 doesn't clip).

Not, that I doubt you might hear a difference, I'm interested in how reliable you can hear a difference with, say, 10 songs from various CDs.

If the RA-1062 performed anything like the RMB-1077 might answer might surprise you. Keep in mind you are talking about an integrated amplifier not a power amplifier, big difference. I suggest you search the results of that review. :W

[cug]

If the RA-1062 performed anything like the RMB-1077 might answer might surprise you. Keep in mind you are talking about an integrated amplifier not a power amplifier, big difference. I suggest you search the results of that review. :W

I have not compared the 1077 with the integrated, only the combo RC-1070 and RB-1072 and there was no real difference for me.

The thing is: what comes out in blind test is often very different from what comes out in non-blind. Most of the times its inconsistant as two systems often can't be reliably distinguished, but often enough, when you really don't know what's playing you're going to choose one system on one day, and the other on another day. Even when you compare a $500 amp to a $5000 amp.

I'm not denying the qualities of the Classé gear, especially stability (which is important with bigger B&W speakers and I think the only reason why Classé and B&W may sound better together compared to less capable gear), clean power, looks and so on.

But I for myself believe only in things I hear when I don't know what's playing. As soon as I know, I'm biased without being aware of that. And nobody can tell me, that he's not. I had psychology long enough in university to know how stupid the human brain is - every humans brain ... :B

[RebelMan]

I have not compared the 1077 with the integrated, only the combo RC-1070 and RB-1072 and there was no real difference for me.

Then this speaks well of the RB-1072. I would expect that outcome but then again I have seen my expectations get let down before.

The thing is: what comes out in blind test is often very different from what comes out in non-blind. Most of the times its inconsistant as two systems often can't be reliably distinguished, but often enough, when you really don't know what's playing you're going to choose one system on one day, and the other on another day. Even when you compare a $500 amp to a $5000 amp.

There's too much debate on this subject to comment one way or the other. I trust my ears on sound and will leave the worth of eyecandy up to the limits of my wallet.

I'm not denying the qualities of the Classé gear, especially stability (which is important with bigger B&W speakers and I think the only reason why Classé and B&W may sound better together compared to less capable gear), clean power, looks and so on.

But I for myself believe only in things I hear when I don't know what's playing. As soon as I know, I'm biased without being aware of that. And nobody can tell me, that he's not. I had psychology long enough in university to know how stupid the human brain is - every humans brain ... :B

They sound well together because they are voiced well together. It would appear that you haven't taken the time to look up my review. Shame on you!

[bigburner]

Generally speaking, all amplifiers having high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response, low distortion, and low noise floor sound exactly the same when operated at matched levels and not clipped, EXCEPT for the amplifier that I own which is warmer, more detailed, more airy, and has a much bigger soundstage than all the others. I know this because I have been blessed with golden ears. :W

Nigel.

[RebelMan]

I know this because I have been blessed with golden ears.

Maybe at one time but not anymore. Need I remind you? :W

[bigburner]

Maybe at one time but not anymore. Need I remind you? :W

Not so, and here's the proof - the award that I received as recently as last year from the Magnificent Order of the Golden Eared Ones.

[cug]

Then this speaks well of the RB-1072. I would expect that outcome but then again I have seen my expectations get let down before.

Not sure whether we think about the same comparison: I compared the RA-1062 with the RC-1070 and RB-1072. And there was no difference at moderate levels.

There's too much debate on this subject to comment one way or the other. I trust my ears on sound and will leave the worth of eyecandy up to the limits of my wallet.

My wallet just seems to be way smaller ... ;-)

They sound well together because they are voiced well together. It would appear that you haven't taken the time to look up my review. Shame on you!

Hmmm, I was pretty confident I had in memory that you were raving about the 1077. Which review was that? The one where you stated: "Therefore, I conclude that the RMB-1077 would make a fine addition to ANY system!"?

[Chatterbot]

Were there differences with the room, front-end and sources too? How many variables were there?

Just my $64K. :W

Hi,

the fist time I´ve listened to 803s´ they were connected to an Accuphase E308.
The overall sound really blew me away.

One week later, listening to 803s connected to a huuuuge Burmester-Power-Amp,
the bass was lacking precision.


That said,
I bought the 803s two years ago knowing, that I have to spend some money in a first-class-amp as well.

So I´ve compared the 803s at my local dealer with
- T&A V10
- Classé CAP2100
- Accuphase E308

The winner: as you might know: Accuphase.
Why? Because it brought the music to my ears the way it should be.
The T&A, like the Classé, did in fact have a rather "warm" sounding, the
low frequencies were lacking details.
Both amps brought a very smooth sounding to my ears, but the Accu did have
more overall precision. The bass was really kicking, there were no resonation
after a kick-drum or such.

T&A and Classé were really not bad at all, I could listen to music over them for hours.
Bad recordings might be better played over them, but with good CD´s/LPs
the Accu wins all the way.

Don´t misanderstand me:
The Classé is a very fine piece of technic. The features, the look/design, I´d really
liked to be an owner.
But sound-wise, I would not wanna change them with my E308.


That was my 3,5cents sorry for my english, I hope ya get me :lol:

Cheers
G

Edit:
I compared above 3 amps 2 months ago. The first time at my local dealer´s store,
the second time at my home over the weekend.

[Chatterbot]

I have to add:

After listening to those amps at my dealers shop, I wanted to listen to a much cheaper amp:
the T&A Power-Plant (because the T&A Music-Player is on my radar, too, it would
fit well, design-wise).

After listening to the Power-Plant for approx. 30 seconds, I skipped the test.
The difference to the high-class-amps was more than subtle. Bah. ops:


@Thread-starter:
Do yourself a favour and compare the amps. There ARE differences, they might
not be huge, but audible. And I´ve got no "golden ear"..
Play some music with kicking bass-drums, and you know what I mean.

Cheers,
G.

[scanido]

I have to add:

After listening to those amps at my dealers shop, I wanted to listen to a much cheaper amp:
the T&A Power-Plant (because the T&A Music-Player is on my radar, too, it would
fit well, design-wise).

After listening to the Power-Plant for approx. 30 seconds, I skipped the test.
The difference to the high-class-amps was more than subtle. Bah. ops:


@Thread-starter:
Do yourself a favour and compare the amps. There ARE differences, they might
not be huge, but audible. And I´ve got no "golden ear"..
Play some music with kicking bass-drums, and you know what I mean.

Cheers,
G.

Definately agree with this. I too only thought the main difference between amps would be the volume, because of the watt rating and subtle differences in soundstage, detail, etc; but when i heard the Rotel and MAC there was a difference alright, especially at higher SPL's.

[RebelMan]

Hey cug,

This comment...

"I have not compared the 1077 with the integrated, only the combo RC-1070 and RB-1072 and there was no real difference for me."

...reads like you compared the RMB-1077 to the RC-70 and RB-1072.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Hmmm, I was pretty confident I had in memory that you were raving about the 1077. Which review was that? The one where you stated: "Therefore, I conclude that the RMB-1077 would make a fine addition to ANY system!"?

"By George I think he's got it!" :B

[RebelMan]

@Thread-starter:
Do yourself a favour and compare the amps. There ARE differences, they might
not be huge, but audible. And I´ve got no "golden ear"..
Play some music with kicking bass-drums, and you know what I mean.

Cheers,
G.

Thanks Chatterbot for filling in the details.

I think some clarification is required. In your auditions you were comparing integrated amplifiers. Integrated amplifiers and power amplifiers can NOT be compared to determine the strengths and weakness of each. Why? Because an integrated ampifier includes a pre-amplifier, a power amplifier does not. I have said this time and time again the pre-amplifier OWNS the signal! Quality (I repeat QUALITY) source players and power amplifiers come in a distant second.

The differences you are detecting between the various components you reviewed is primarily due to the pre-amplifier stage of the integrated amplifier.

Again, differences between most quality power amplifiers will be subtle.

[RebelMan]

Definately agree with this. I too only thought the main difference between amps would be the volume, because of the watt rating and subtle differences in soundstage, detail, etc; but when i heard the Rotel and MAC there was a difference alright, especially at higher SPL's.

There are significant design differences between the Rotel and MAC that you compared. I have not heard the RB-1072 but I have heard some of its cousins. The RMB-1077 was exceptional, the RB-1091 and RB-1092 were not. Until I hear the RB-1072 I can only speculate. If the RB-1072 is similar in character to the RB-109x then your conclusions between the MC-207 and RB-1072 are not too surprising.

FWIW, To maintain a constant state of affairs I am actively involved in all my critical evaluations. I check connections on both sides, connection types (RCA vs XLR) (gotta be the same) I level out the volume to a comfortable 76dB SPL at the listening spot and I use the same set of discs all in the same room date and time when comparing component pieces. Finally and most importantly I spend hours and hours demoing.

Most dealers are quite accomodating in this respect and generally allow time to myself. I am never rushed and I take my time. Often I will come back several times to repeat the process over again. Why? Because perceptions can change with time. That's why I don't change my equipment like the weather. I've done my homework and don't need to. That's why I am confident in what I say. I think it is unfortunate that this aspect of our hobby receives the least attention and involvement by its participant.

[Chatterbot]

I have said this time and time again the pre-amplifier OWNS the signal! Quality (I repeat QUALITY) source players and power amplifiers come in a distant second.

The differences you are detecting between the various components you reviewed is primarily due to the pre-amplifier stage of the integrated amplifier.

Again, differences between most quality power amplifiers will be subtle.

Hi,

I´m really sorry, but I cannot compare with you on this one.
When I tested the Classé and the Accuphase together in my living-room, they
ran as pure amp with my Denon AVR 2805 being the pre (that was easier for
me to switch the amps).
The differences remained the same.

The Classé lacked the bass-precision. The Accuphase did not.
But it might depend on the individual hearing/liking/taste/whatever, or simply the
music-taste (I prefer electronic music).

I personally think now, that using a good pre-amp is overhyped.

Cheers,
G.

[cug]

This comment...

"I have not compared the 1077 with the integrated, only the combo RC-1070 and RB-1072 and there was no real difference for me."

...reads like you compared the RMB-1077 to the RC-70 and RB-1072.

English is not my native language, so I might not always say things in the way I mean them.

[RebelMan]

Hi,

I´m really sorry, but I cannot compare with you on this one.
When I tested the Classé and the Accuphase together in my living-room, they
ran as pure amp with my Denon AVR 2805 being the pre (that was easier for
me to switch the amps).
The differences remained the same.

The Classé lacked the bass-precision. The Accuphase did not.
But it might depend on the individual hearing/liking/taste/whatever, or simply the
music-taste (I prefer electronic music).

I personally think now, that using a good pre-amp is overhyped.

Cheers,
G.

Stick with me Chatterbot I think were are running on two different courses. Time to get this straight.

Let's limit our talk to Accuphase and Classe' for the time being. You said you compared the Accuphase E308 to the Classe' CAP-2100 and preferred the former. I don't question your preference and I offer my congratulation's.

However, if you'll indulge me I would like to take a closer look at the evaluation methodology you used in the process that led you to your final decision. Again, I have no criticism towards you nor your choices I just want a better understanding of how you arrived there.

We'll have to do this piecemeal so please bear with me.

1.) Was your purchasing decision made after you demoed the equipment in your home or in the dealer showroom?

2.) The demo that you conducted at home with your Denon AVR 2805, did it involve the Accuphase E308 and the Classe' CAP-2100?

3.) The demo that you conducted at the dealer showroom, to what extent were you involved with the setup and configuration of the equipment? In other words, who was running the show you or the salesperson?

[Chatterbot]

We'll have to do this piecemeal so please bear with me.

I´ll try to do 8)

When I listened the first time to the 803s, 2 1/2 jears ago, they ran on an Accu.
From that time I never heard the 803s being so straight in bass, neither with
Burmester, nor with Rotel or Classé or T&A.

The 803´s in that time ran at my home on a Rotel RMB1075, with the 1075 wired
in bi-amping for both fronts and the 5th channel for my center-speaker.
That was a huge improvement to my former used Denon 2800-power-amp, but still...

1.) Was your purchasing decision made after you demoed the equipment in your home
or in the dealer showroom?

When i purchased the new amp last December, I´d really like to have that
monster T&A V10 (did you ever see this?) or Classé at my home.
I wanted improvement in Bass, that was my first need when I made a date for
a listening-session at my dealer´s shop. I also wanted to know whether a high-end-amp
would be an improvement to the current set-up that I used at this time.

I asked my dealer if he can provide the mentioned 3 amps for a listening-session,
and he could. I brought some of my best recorded CDs, together with my girlfriend
(who is a DJ and familiar with "sounding") to the dealer´s shop and listened for
about 2 hours to the different amps.

The dealer was not in the room, except while plugging another amp to the
Accuphase CDP we used there as source.

2.) The demo that you conducted at home with your Denon AVR 2805, did it involve the
Accuphase E308 and the Classe' CAP-2100?

That´s right. The T&A was way too smooth to be short-listed.

The Classé, you´d be surprised, in the dealer´s acoustic-optimized room was too bass-heavy,
it droned. There was a metal-lamp in the room, which buzzed extremely when the Classé did
his work. That did not happen either with the Accu nor with the T&A.

The dealer told me, that issue would be different at my own 4 walls, so I gave
the Classé another chance.

3.) The demo that you conducted at the dealer showroom, to what extent were you
involved with the setup and configuration of the equipment? In other words,
who was running the show you or the salesperson?

The salesperson did only wire the different amps, then left the room and gave me
the remote-control for track-selection and volume-change. We had the showroom for
ourselfes and could play really loud.

What might be important for you:
I have to add that the salesperson himself owns the Classé, and really wanted me to be
another owner.
Next thing: due to some extra-offer (taking back some older hifi-equipment) the
Classé was 500 Euros cheaper than the Accuphase :blink:

So, as you might understand there really was some advantage for the Classé:
1. Better design (wow)
2. Display with touchscreen and colour-change (wow again)
3. Any input could be configured as "power-amp-direct" (good for adding them
to an existing 5.1-setup, like mine)
4. A price-difference from about 500 Euros

The home-session was ran with some of my friends. One of them another DJ, after
exchanging the Classé with the Accuphase, said: "What did you do? Is that the same song?"
It simply was more brilliant and precise compared to the Classé.

So, as you can imagine, it was not easy to let the old-styled-champagner-coloured
Accuphase at my home and bring back the Classé. But I did. And there was
a reason for it: the clearness in sound and the precision in bass.


I wanna add one more sentence at the "pre-amp"- discussion:
The Accuphase is double-wired in my existing setup:
1. CDP (analog)-> Accuphase
2. CDP (digital)-> Denon AVR2805 -> (analog) -> Accuphase
that lets me switch between CD directly and the Denon being the pre, simply by pressing
one button at the Accu. I can hear no, I´ll repeat: no difference whether the Denon is
active or not.


That was much more text than I intended, I hope you understand my writing, it´s not easy
for me to express myself... ;x(

Cheers,
Guenther

P.S:
To cut a long story short:
Go out, listen to some amps and make your own decision. There really are differences.
The differences are not only between Tubes and Transistors, they too exist between
two transistor-amps.

[RebelMan]

The language barrier is challenge but I think I can manage.

I want to thank you for entertaining my line of questions, there is a method to this madness which I hope becomes clear.

I needed to be sure that the same equipment was under review in both situations which you confirmed. What needs to be made very clear is that you did not compare power amplifiers. You analysis involved integrated amplifiers. An integrated amplifier combines a pre-amplifier stage with an amplification stage, that is, a line-stage with gain. As I stated before the pre-amplifier OWNS the signal NOT the power amplifier. Think of the integrated amplifier as an “amplified pre-amplifier”.

I am afraid to tell you that your conclusions while beneficial to you are not applicable to the context of this thread. Your results were largely dependent on pre-amplification not power amplification.

I wanna add one more sentence at the "pre-amp"- discussion:
The Accuphase is double-wired in my existing setup:
1. CDP (analog)-> Accuphase
2. CDP (digital)-> Denon AVR2805 -> (analog) -> Accuphase
that lets me switch between CD directly and the Denon being the pre, simply by pressing
one button at the Accu. I can hear no, I´ll repeat: no difference whether the Denon is
active or not.

Are you surprised? Well you shouldn’t be. What have I been saying? The answer lies within your own discovery of different pre-amplifier stages.

PROOF (According to you.)

Case 1:

a.) CDP (digital)-> Denon AVR2805 -> Speakers
b.) CDP (digital)-> Denon AVR2805 (analog) -> Accuphase E-308 -> Speakers
Results: Different

Case 2:

a.) CDP (analog)-> Accuphase E-308 - > Speakers
b.) CDP (digital)-> Denon AVR2805 (analog) -> Accuphase E-308 -> Speakers
Results: Indifferent

Case 3:

a.) CDP (digital)-> Denon AVR2805 (analog) -> Accuphase E-308 -> Speakers
b.) CDP (digital)-> Denon AVR2805 (analog) -> Classe’ CAP-2100 -> Speakers
Results: Different

Do you see a pattern here? In cases where the final line-stage was different your results were different and in cases where the final line-stage was the same the results were the same. Coincidence? Definitely not because the pre-amplifier OWNS the signal. Remember you are NOT comparing power amplifiers in this case. You are comparing integrated amplifiers which are line-stages with gain. There is a big difference between the two types and your results are proof of that.

What you should have done was compare similar power amplifiers of similar class. For example a Classe’ CA-2100 against say the Accuphase P-3000 (I am guessing this would be the closest match) using your Denon AVR2805 line-stage for proper analysis of amplifiers.

Therefore, your conclusions that “amplifiers” make a big difference and that "pre-amplifiers" do not is incorrect because the analysis is using flawed data.

I cannot concur with your statements "low frequencies were lacking details " or "lacked the bass-precision" that you used to describe the Classe' CAP-2100 as it leaves some room open for interpretation but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. However, it bears saying that the Accuphase E-308 is equipped with tone controls and loudness compensation which the Classe' CAP-2100 is not. Unless dB level matching was performed and the "frequency features" defeated the interpretation of the presentation will again be skewed. Therefore, when you refer to the CAP-2100 as lacking bass details and precision I interpret that to mean it lacks the capacity to tweak and alter bass to satisfy your tastes.

[style]

@ scanido,

With a test rb1072 and MC207 is not ideal for a choice.
There is too much difference between the two units?
The MC 205/207 is clearly superior!

I personally B&W 803s-htm3s-805s-750sub.
Electronic Rotel Rsp1068 all-rb1092 for front - rb1091 to center - rb1092 to rear.
In Switzerland the Rotel Class D (RB1091/1092 / ..) go very well.
Rotel has removed from the catalog because rb1090 the good results of the new rb1092/91 ... Have been much appreciated by its customers!

Rotel 2 x RB1092 plus 1 x RB1091 = $. 8600.- list
MC205 = $ 9800 list
Classè CA5200 = $ 14000 list

The MC is sure a good choice. No word. "at good volume" is better as Rotel RB109x, but the room, the Processor are too much important!

Buy the Classè ssp800 with the Mc is not "so good", Pre/pro and powerampli from the same company make the different too.
Now the home cimena processor from Mc are not a very good product (overprieced for what offert), the Mx136 vs. SSP800-900!?! and more combo CA5200 plus SSP800-900 will be the best choice!

greeting from Switzerland Omar

[Chatterbot]

@Rebelman:

I compared the integrated-amps at the dealer, where only an Accuphase-CDP was the source.
The more detail of music together with more precision in bass for my taste, if you
want, was with the Accu.

At the home-testing-session the Denon was the pre for both, and my understanding
for an external pre-input at an integrated power-amps back is,
that the internal amp leaves the pre-station alone and works as a pure power amp.
Again: the same results as written above.

Now, that I can switch my setup between the Accuphase being the integrated amp
or my Denon being the pre with the Accu used as power-amp, I can hear no
difference between
- the pre-section used in the Accuphase
and
- the pre-section used in the Denon AVR2805.

That, for my understanding, shows that the pre-section is not the reason for the
different soundings.
And: I´d be not surprised that, if I´d add a DAC-10 digital-audio-card for the Accuphase,
there would indeed be differences.

Speaking of a "pre", then the DA-conversion would be the improvement, not
the pre-amp (imo).


However, take it how you want. I only wanted to tell the thread-starter , that it
could be an improvement if he takes the Accuphase into his short-list.
I´ve made my decision, I think I´ve shown my reasons and I really wanted the
Classé to please me in my living-room ;x(

:tennis: