Newbie with 804S

[Tuddy]

Bear with me folks as this is my first dive in to high end audio.

Set up my 804S' and HTM4 Center and I am looking for some basic set up help.

When I go in to the Yamaha OSD the ohms is set at "0", should I set it to 4 or 8 ohms, or does it not matter?

Speaks are connected to Rotel RMB 1095 via MIT interconnects, Blue Jeans speaker cables and they are 2 feet from the back wall.

Polarity is fine, but not much of a "wow" factor. Perhaps after they break in I will be impressed. I do not expect to reproduce what I experienced in the dealer demo room, but the AMP is 200W per channel, and the room is not really being filled up, if that makes sense.

Also, is it normal that I need to push the volume level up 30-40% more to reach the level of sound I did with my entry level Polk towers (R50's)?

I was surprised and thought it would be the opposite, less volume needed, especially connected to the Rotel?

Source & room acoustics aside I am expecting to be blown away.

Perhaps after they break in they will sound as good as they look.

Appreciate any feedback.

Tuddy

[emig5m]

Also, is it normal that I need to push the volume level up 30-40% more to reach the level of sound I did with my entry level Polk towers (R50's)?

I was surprised and thought it would be the opposite, less volume needed, especially connected to the Rotel?

Weird, they're both rated 90dB spl efficiency so one would think they would get to about the same volume level at the same volume setting. And as far as them not filling your room, my 683s which are similar in size and specs can play at volumes with a 95 watt Yamaha receiver where you're hard pressed to hear your own voice (but this is in a small, but highly dampened, room.)

[Tuddy]

Thanks for the reply, emig5m.

I agree with your comment.

Should I have the DB level in my Yamaha set up menu at a certain level for the L/C/R?

By the way my room is large, 25x18 with cathedral ceilings and a wide open
floor plan to the kitchen and living room.

I probably should have went with the 803's or larger set of speaks due to room size, but at minimum I should expect 5X the performance from the 804S
over the prior 8 year old Polk R 50's.

Dealer claims manufacturers calibrate their own volume levels and said even though I need to push the level 30% more to reach prior level with the Polks, the speakers are fine if there is no distortion, and there is none.

But something is off.

[piperpilot]

Hi,
I'm not sure I have a solution for you, but I also have a RMB1095 and 804S, HTM3S center, so very similar setup. My room is about like yours as well -- similiar size, cathedral ceilings and backs to the open kitchen area. I am, however, using a RSP-1069 preamp, and I don't have any trouble filling the room with sound.

With the large room, I did end up getting a Velodyne subwoofer, DD-18, to fill in the low end to add that impact for movies and music. It just pressurizes the room much better with bass. The 804S were a little weak in the bass department in the large room by themselves, and my dealer suggested trying a subwoofer first, had a great deal on one in stock, and allowed me to try it first, which I'm glad I did. I'd love to have the 803s, but if I ever upgrade again, it will probably be to the 802s... I LOVE my 804S and subwoofer, so a great deal would have to come along to get me to change anything.

Anyway... As emig5m said, if the speakers are truly the same sensitivity and impedance, then they should both play at the same volume given the same volume setting on your Yamaha.... Although the sensitivity of each speakers spec is rated at 90db spl, there could be a slight variation in the way they were measured. As far as connections go, are you sure the polarity is correct on the amp and the 804S on the connections and do you have the terminal bridging wires installed on the binding posts on the 804S?

Cheers,
John

[Kevin D]

Were the Polk's runnning off the 1095 as well, or did you just add that as well? If they were running off the Yamaha before, the volume levels will be different. You're going from the internal amps of the Yamaha to the pre-outputs (which could have a different gain) to the Rotel amp (which most likely has a different gain).

Your dealer is correct in that as long as it gets too loud before max volume and nothing is distorting, it's probably working fine.

Kevin D.

[piperpilot]

Kevin, good point.
If he just now added the 1095 and the 804S, the preamp outs on the Yamaha could possibly have a lower Preamp Output Level/Impedance level than what it has when driving the internal amps on the Yamaha. If so, the volume control would have to be higher to drive the volume to the same level through the 1095... Would you agree?

[Kevin D]

Correct!

[Tuddy]

Kevin & Piperpilot, thanks for the replies.

John, I have the terminal bridging wires installed and the polarity is OK.

I am also running a sub, old Polk, and I plan on getting a new sub and pre-amp in December.

The 804S are sounding much better, I still expect them to really blow me away as they get broken in (just set up yesterday).

Kevin-thanks for the insight, I did not even consider the fact that I am now
running speakers through a power AMP, the Polks were running off the Yammie.

The midrange, clarity and detail are there, the 804s are bringing the music to the center so they are imaging very well.

I'll post some pics soon.

Thanks again,

Dave

[specialized]

Kevin & Piperpilot, thanks for the replies.

John, I have the terminal bridging wires installed and the polarity is OK.

I am also running a sub, old Polk, and I plan on getting a new sub and pre-amp in December.

The 804S are sounding much better, I still expect them to really blow me away as they get broken in (just set up yesterday).

Kevin-thanks for the insight, I did not even consider the fact that I am now
running speakers through a power AMP, the Polks were running off the Yammie.

The midrange, clarity and detail are there, the 804s are bringing the music to the center so they are imaging very well.

I'll post some pics soon.

Thanks again,

Dave

I consider 804s as well for my room, but i found that 805s sound better at least in my space (smaller room then u'rs). At the end i tried 803S and i was amazed.. So as final order i ordered 803s. At least for me they was much better then 804s.. Are u able to replace u'r 804s with 803s?

Darko

[Briz vegas]

Is your room filling deficit in the 2 channel or the HT department? I would be surprised if that system did not fill a room in HT mode. If you have a large room with high ceilings then it will be more difficult with 804s vs the larger B&Ws - but everyones budget has to run out of steam at some point. It all depends what you are looking for.

Remember that while the speakers are running in so are your ears. I suspect most of us are actually terrible listeners. Flabby bass in a budget system can be interpreted as warm and full, it can take some time to get used to a more accurate loudspeaker in your home system.

That being said, if you have capacity in your budget, and a flexible dealer, it would not hurt to consider the 803s as it will have a bigger sound- its simple physics really. In my smaller room (partly open plan) I found the bigger sound by investments in cabling. Scarey to think but my 804s and speaker cables equals an 803s in price - possibly only worth it if you already have the 804s and you dealer does not does not do trade ins (I would have lost thousands to trade up and my cables are stunning in my system).

[Russ L]

In my smaller room (partly open plan) I found the bigger sound by investments in cabling. Scarey to think but my 804s and speaker cables equals an 803s in price - possibly only worth it if you already have the 804s and you dealer does not does not do trade ins (I would have lost thousands to trade up and my cables are stunning in my system).

Its amazing what a set of $1500+ cables will do for your soundstage. One of the best investments I've ever made. Must demo first because some brands make no difference and at that price...

[Horacio]

Briz,

Which speaker cables are you using, and how long are they? Which ones have you tried and didn't work for you? I also have 804s and will need to upgrade my cables at some point.

Thanks,

[Russ L]

Briz,

Which speaker cables are you using, and how long are they? Which ones have you tried and didn't work for you? I also have 804s and will need to upgrade my cables at some point.

Thanks,

Check his public profile. We won't say in a post (USUALLY!) out of respect for Doug the forum organizer.

[Tuddy]

Darko & Briz,

My dealer would be willing to let me give the 804S back for the 803s, but after my 2nd post in which I mention the speakers are improving, so have my ears.

The dealer actually plugged the 803's in for me when I demo'd, but the additional $2k in price might have ended my marriage !

$2k for the Rotel 1095, the B&W Center speak was $1300 and another $2k on the PS Audio Quintet power conditioner, interconnects, speaker cables and new AV furniture, I could not push the WAF with the 803's so I drew the line at 8K for the total upgrade.

I want to jump over the 803's for the next upgrade anyway.

It was my initial reaction to that first listen when I set the speakers up last week, I was not blown away.

But as the 804s break in, as well as all of the other new gear I become more impressed everyday.

I also need to consider my CD/DVD source, a 6 year old Sony SACD, one of the first ones on the market way back then. This is the next upgrade as well as a new sub (would like to spend no more than 1K on new sub), and I am dumping the Yamaha RXV 1400 for a new Rotel pre amp before year end.

Horacio, see public profile for cables, it appears I am not to mention in posts ?
Weird?

Thanks all.

Dave

[specialized]

I suggest u to invest the most money in high quality speakers.. I found my self that whenever i safe on speakers it cost me more later..

I consider 804s, but when i compare them next to 805s, i think 805s are much better speakers and specialy if for same money of 804s u get 805s + Sub for the deeper bass.
805s have better imaging, and for my ears was much much better speakers..
And becouse u allready have HTM4 which is perfect centar for 805, u'll get amazing HT system

Then it's better to get 805s, u'll save money compared to 804s that u can invest in better electronics.
Later u can move 805S on back and get 803S or D.

803s have much better sound for me then 805s (more clear specialy on complex parts), and also biiig soundstage...

804s for me was bass lacking (u still need a sub ), and i was totaly dissapointed with soundstage. I feel like im on concert and sitting in last raw..
For good and cheap CD Player consider Rotel 1072 (i compare it with Denon and Marantz and i like it a lot).
Im not sure how much u'll get with replacing u'r Yamaha with Rotel Preamp.
Im using Denon 3808 which i use a Pre/Pro, and i consider to replace it with Integra 9.8 Pre/Pro. But still im not sure if i'll get something better here..

Just to mention. I have test 804s vs 805s connected with my Rotel 1080 at my place, and after in dealer place connected to McIntosh (i'm not sure which model). I got the same impression ..


Greetings

Darko

p.s. Maybe Briz is right.. Maybe i had a bad cables for 804s. But still.. Consider 805s or jump to 803S

Darko & Briz,

My dealer would be willing to let me give the 804S back for the 803s, but after my 2nd post in which I mention the speakers are improving, so have my ears.

The dealer actually plugged the 803's in for me when I demo'd, but the additional $2k in price might have ended my marriage !

$2k for the Rotel 1095, the B&W Center speak was $1300 and another $2k on the PS Audio Quintet power conditioner, interconnects, speaker cables and new AV furniture, I could not push the WAF with the 803's so I drew the line at 8K for the total upgrade.

I want to jump over the 803's for the next upgrade anyway.

It was my initial reaction to that first listen when I set the speakers up last week, I was not blown away.

But as the 804s break in, as well as all of the other new gear I become more impressed everyday.

I also need to consider my CD/DVD source, a 6 year old Sony SACD, one of the first ones on the market way back then. This is the next upgrade as well as a new sub (would like to spend no more than 1K on new sub), and I am dumping the Yamaha RXV 1400 for a new Rotel pre amp before year end.

Horacio, see public profile for cables, it appears I am not to mention in posts ?
Weird?

Thanks all.

Dave

[Horacio]

Russ: thanks for the tip. I didn't realize this was kind of rude to ask here.

Tuddy: I auditioned the 804s driven by McIntosh and decided to buy the 804s. Actually my dealer, who knows me well from prior time, talked me out of buying the 803s as opposed of to the 804s.
Once at home, however, my Rotel stereo with RB-1080 amp, just didn't do the trick. Eventually I upgraded the amp to McIntosh MC275 (tubes). The sound is SO much better! Later I moved to another home and was needing bass reinforcement and got a used REL Storm III (they go used around $1200 on Audiogon, BTW). Another great upgrade.
For me and with my ears the takeaway is Rotel electronics, as good as they are, aren't at the same level as the 800-series, at least for music. I still have to upgrade my Rotel pre and RCD1072 and I'm quite happy with the 804s!

I hope this helps.

Horacio

[Tuddy]

Thanks, Horacio.

And your comments help, I was looking at various REL subs yesterday.

I have heard so many good things about McIntosh amps, but I have been reading that some folks do not like the way tube amps alter music and movies?

I read something yesterday where one person will never buy a tube amp, and sold state amps are more "consistent".

I will try to find the link.

Best I demo a McIntosh.

Tuddy

[beden1]

Thanks, Horacio.

And your comments help, I was looking at various REL subs yesterday.

I have heard so many good things about McIntosh amps, but I have been reading that some folks do not like the way tube amps alter music and movies?

I read something yesterday where one person will never buy a tube amp, and sold state amps are more "consistent".

I will try to find the link.

Best I demo a McIntosh.

Tuddy

McIntosh makes both tube and solid state amps.

[Horacio]

Tuddy,

Personally I find absolutist comments such as "I'll never buy a XXX because they all sound X or Y" a little nonsense. I'd rather trust my ears. One might say a perfect amp is supposedly neutral, so no tube or solid state signature, I guess. But then to some it might be appealing the sound signature of one or the other, or digital, for that matter.

Take a look at the McIntosh forum in Audiokarma. McIntosh makes very good amps both in solid state and tubes, and some like both.
To my ears the tubes in the MC275 are a great match with the aluminum tweeter in the 805S (and 804S and 803S). So was the Mc solid state sound, to me, but I did prefer the tubes. By the way, you are likely to read tubed amps need biasing, which is a hassle for some: this is not the case for McIntosh amps. So far mine has required no maintenance whatsoever. Eventually the tubes fade and need replacement, but that, to me, is a relatively small issue.

Enjoy your system!
Horacio

[Briz vegas]

Yup, the ears have to be the final guide because they are connected to your brain with all its preconceptions.

For example, 805s is a great speaker but it is not better than 804s in my experience. I have said this before, but I came from 2 years of 705 ownership and when I heard 805 I thought it was better but kind of the same at the same time. 804s on the other hand provided the degree of improvement that I was looking for. Yes 803 is most likely better but it was outside my budget at the time.

On the bass issue, I have a Rel Strata 5; it stays OFF for 2 channel audio. I did an A B test the other day - listened to the Brandenburg Orchestra at the QPAC concert hall, came home and played the same music (Handel) at home - bass wise it was pretty much no par (as was the audio quality - same ball park anyway, I would not claim that my system is as good as a live orchestra - I just didn't find myself wishing for something better)

PS I like tube amps even if they do alter the sound. I understand that the use tubes in recording studios with vocals and the like to achieve a similar sound. If you want to try two different sounds try a Naim CD player VS a Musical Fidelity player - talk about two different flavours. Obviously I am a Naim man myself.