Need an advice for 805s amp selection

[utkinpol]

Hi,

Please do not bite me too hard. I am not a hard core audiophile but I like to listen to nice quality music so I need a bit of advice.

I have got 805S I always wanted. It is also complimented by JBL L8400P.
As a source I have Sony DVP-S7700 and also 3 other digital feeds over 1 SPDIF and 2 optical laser inputs.

As an amp I currently use my old Yamaha RX-V795a I got back in 2000. Back then I was more interested in hi-fi, so I spent some time walking around and listening to amps and pre-amps and back then this receiver seemed to be quite a good compromise on a limited budget. So now my budget is in better condition and I am wondering if it worth spending time and money considering having around up to $2K to spend - does it make sense to replace v795a? I liked Yamaha amps and receivers - they were quite clean (to my ears) for cheap integrated amps.

I looked at this link:

http://www.hccawards.com/page/hccawards?entry=best_receiver_over_1k

and again see same players - Arcam, Marantz, Yahama, just like 10-15 years ago. nothing really changed.

So I just wonder - considering if I listen to music only and need LFE feed to subwoofer, I either need a good digital pre-amp and power amp with bi-wiring to my 805S (not sure if it is doable within $2K budget) or I should get one of those new receivers from that link above.

But does it make any practical sense to trade old V795a for any of those new receivers considering I do not need or care about any new digital gizmos they got and only want to improve sound quality?

I am not a supremacist, and frankly I can probably live with current sound as it is, only thing I could say - 805S does not give me much bass now but L8400P with crossover set to 70Hz and power on 50% compensates this quite well (I know people may bite me for that, but I like to listen to organ music and really hear organ sound in 20-50 Hz area and you simply cannot get it without a sub).

Can anyone with experience in Yamaha products advice on any practical alternatives to what I have now? I am open to any ideas, considering it will keep my list on inputs.

[mstang1988]

I would suggest seperates. Long run it's much cheaper to only replacing the processing instead of all the nice clean power you want.

I currently use a Yamaha 5760 as a Pre/Pro and use rotel RB-1091 mono seperates for the L/R channels. Although not ideal it still sounds great. My suggestion would be to demo some amps from dealers and see which you would like. Start at Rotel because of cost and look at the used market. Specifically I would say look into the RMB-1077, 1076, 1085 if you need multichannel and don't mind D-Class sounds. The 1077 is supposed to sound outstanding! You can also look at the remainder of their power amps but I might urge you to spend just a little more and think about going to something more like a parasound A51 and later add a A21. Get what sounds good to your ear and plan on spending more then you budgeted and don't listen to what you can't afford, you'll get upgraditus and not be satisfied. Reading your post again it looks like you just want 2Ch... How about a used A21 or looking through http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/index.htm?cat=30 to see if anything sparks your interest.

Are you using your DVP-S7700 analog outs and using it's DAC or your receiver DAC? I'm not sure your about your yamaha but mine has a stereo pass through mode that isn't supposed to color the sound so for 2 Ch you might be able to use your V795a as a pre and be totally happy. I recently saw a used Parasound C2 (8/10) for 1300 on audiogon, it should be an excellent processor for the money! Usually they are around 1650 but sometimes you can get a awesome deal! The C1/C2's have been out since 2003 I think and a new processor is on the way that supports HDMI 1.3 so the value is dropping to where it has become affordable. Also look at the rotel units, they are great bang for the buck. I really enjoy the looks of them too.

If you want just stereo you can also use something like http://cgi.ebay.com/Parasound-P3-Pre...=1218729603332.

Good luck on your quest!

P.S. Right before you posted this I posted a question about the power handling of the 805S and a few others. Looks like it can really handle more then 120Watts. The more power you give it access to the better it can control the sound. More watts doesn't always = better sound though.

[utkinpol]

I would suggest seperates. Long run it's much cheaper to only replacing the processing instead of all the nice clean power you want.

I currently use a Yamaha 5760 as a Pre/Pro and use rotel RB-1091 mono seperates for the L/R channels. Although not ideal it still sounds great. My suggestion would be to demo some amps from dealers and see which you would like. Start at Rotel because of cost and look at the used market. Specifically I would say look into the RMB-1077, 1076, 1085 if you need multichannel and don't mind D-Class sounds. The 1077 is supposed to sound outstanding! You can also look at the remainder of their power amps but I might urge you to spend just a little more and think about going to something more like a parasound A51 and later add a A21. Get what sounds good to your ear and plan on spending more then you budgeted and don't listen to what you can't afford, you'll get upgraditus and not be satisfied. Reading your post again it looks like you just want 2Ch... How about a used A21 or looking through http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/index.htm?cat=30 to see if anything sparks your interest.

Are you using your DVP-S7700 analog outs and using it's DAC or your receiver DAC? I'm not sure your about your yamaha but mine has a stereo pass through mode that isn't supposed to color the sound so for 2 Ch you might be able to use your V795a as a pre and be totally happy. I recently saw a used Parasound C2 (8/10) for 1300 on audiogon, it should be an excellent processor for the money! Usually they are around 1650 but sometimes you can get a awesome deal! The C1/C2's have been out since 2003 I think and a new processor is on the way that supports HDMI 1.3 so the value is dropping to where it has become affordable. Also look at the rotel units, they are great bang for the buck. I really enjoy the looks of them too.

If you want just stereo you can also use something like http://cgi.ebay.com/Parasound-P3-Pre...=1218729603332.

Good luck on your quest!

P.S. Right before you posted this I posted a question about the power handling of the 805S and a few others. Looks like it can really handle more then 120Watts. The more power you give it access to the better it can control the sound. More watts doesn't always = better sound though.

So, you vote for Rotel? I was more thinking about Arcam power amps, but, it is an interestinc topic. I`ll look on what is on Ebay, it may be interesting.

I have to say, I am a bit sceptical about how much actual difference it will do to keep V795a as a pre-amp and put Rotel D-Class as power amp. Yamaha has quite OK power section I think and it is currently bi-wired to speakers, 4x115W output. I used to have earlier series 80W or so Yamaha integrated amp and once compared it to my friend`s 5xx series reciever and it was almost no difference in sound, and when I got my current 795a I compared it to $3K Denon receiver on Martin Logan speakers and it was quite close. That is why I was so interested in somebody`s personal experience about Yamaha products in particular, really.

But, well, one who does not try new things never gets fun stuff. Probably it is my time to support UPS a bit more again.

As for pre-amp I also need SPDIF coax input and 2 optical inputs (guilty to listen a lot of music streaming from PC - mp3,flac,etc.).

[utkinpol]

I would suggest seperates. Long run it's much cheaper to only replacing the processing instead of all the nice clean power you want.

I currently use a Yamaha 5760 as a Pre/Pro and use rotel RB-1091 mono seperates for the L/R channels. Although not ideal it still sounds great. My suggestion would be to demo some amps from dealers and see which you would like. Start at Rotel because of cost and look at the used market. Specifically I would say look into the RMB-1077, 1076, 1085 if you need multichannel and don't mind D-Class sounds. The 1077 is supposed to sound

BTW,
what about this listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pair-of-Rotel-Mo...QQcmdZViewItem
?

[Orb]

Seems a fair few love the Nad M3 integrated amp.
I know this is above your budget but may be worth considering ex-demo or purchasing maybe from audiogon if you are comfortable with that.
I see there is one advertised there for $1,800.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1223695298

Still, before purchasing have a listen at a dealer if you can.

Cheers
Orb

[Foxrow]

utkinpol,

If you really want to hear your 805s sing ... choose this one... ASR Emitter I.
I have paired my babes with this monster...and now I really know what they can do... :twisted:

Cheers...

[mstang1988]

It's all relative on what you want to spend. I would say listen before buying, I can give no better advice. Even with my 1091's vs my 5760 I noticed little difference in sound. If you can't hear the difference don't spend the money. The person that owned my 1091's before me upgraded to classe and said he was suprised at how little they differed on his 802D's.

Also my opinions are just of the equipment I have heard. I won't recommend anything that I haven't heard and those things seemed to be in your pricepoint. I'm sure somewhere out there in the world there are better things for the price then rotel.


My impression of the D-Class Rotel -

The 1092(1's) extract more detail then the 1095/1075's but didn't seem as warm. In the end I decided that the detail was more important to me. I also think the power handling of 500RMS on my speakers had something to do with it...

Seperates for me were the way to go. I can keep the power, clarity and they hold value! Integrateds seemed to dive in price 1 year after buying when the next latest and greatest model comes out. Again, take the time to demo. Usually they are pretty forgiving and if you are considering buying new you can somtimes get at home demo's. I also found http://www.htguide.com/forum/archive/index.php4/t-15133 during my search which gifted me for the desire of parasound. Looks like you can demo in home via the manufacture.

Also, Foxrow what does that cost? I'm trying to stay in his price point...

With the 805s a sub is absolutely a must! Without it I prefer my RTi12's over the 805s's just because I can get full frequency response. What good is listening that piano if you can't feel half the keys? For everything but base though the 805's are far better.

Btw, I too am guilty of digital audio via pc etc. I stream mine via the ps3 or xbox 360 from my media center PC and let my 5760 do the DAC. I also use the digital cable music selection pretty often. I'm Looking at getting a better DAC soon which is most likely that 1300 dollar parasound C2 I told you about :-)

P.S. I haven't had the chance to listen to the older rotel models yet. I've sampled the 1095, 1075, 1092, 1091's, and 1070. I also had the chance to listen to a handful of combo proc/amp's by rotel but I don't know the model. I also listened to the Parasound A23, A52 , C2 but the listening room they were in was Horrible! It was some installer that really didn't know a thing about the product he sold.

[mstang1988]

I personally like this unit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rotel-RB-1080-Hi...=1218741128039

I haven't heard it though. It's buy it now so try and save some $$$ READ CAREFULLY

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=892970

http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=rotel&form=QBLH

That said audiogon usually has those going for around 500+ shipping so you might just wait a short while. I prefer shopping on audiogon vs ebay but that's just me.

[utkinpol]

I personally like this unit.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rotel-RB-1080-Hi...=1218741128039

I haven't heard it though. It's buy it now so try and save some $$$ READ CAREFULLY

http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=892970

http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=rotel&form=QBLH

That said audiogon usually has those going for around 500+ shipping so you might just wait a short while. I prefer shopping on audiogon vs ebay but that's just me.

I went to a local audio shop this afternoon, listened to several amps and picked up new RB-1080.

Just plugged it in, with new monster mcx2s speaker cables and audioquest sidewinder interconnects (not a top ones but I`m not that picky) and I cannot believe what difference it all made. Speakers are alive now, sound is good and rich in bass. I am quite happy, for a moment at least.

[Foxrow]

mstang1988, you're right, sorry... Emitter is in another league.

utkinpol ,
At times, I had a Rotel RB-1080, is a good amplifier for the price, my suggestion is ... combine it with warm cables if possible. Sometimes Rotel tend to be a little expressive in the highs ... I paired the 1080 with the RC-1090. very nice combination. good luck

[mstang1988]

I went to a local audio shop this afternoon, listened to several amps and picked up new RB-1080.

Just plugged it in, with new monster mcx2s speaker cables and audioquest sidewinder interconnects (not a top ones but I`m not that picky) and I cannot believe what difference it all made. Speakers are alive now, sound is good and rich in bass. I am quite happy, for a moment at least.

Haha, couldn't wait for the cheaper used stuff? I'm glad you got what you were looking for! What else did you demo while you were there? Did you look at pre/pro's at all? I would be interested in knowing what you think of an A/B with the cheap previous speaker cables you had vs your new monsters :-) Did you get the silver/black or solid black 1080?

[utkinpol]

Haha, couldn't wait for the cheaper used stuff? I'm glad you got what you were looking for! What else did you demo while you were there? Did you look at pre/pro's at all? I would be interested in knowing what you think of an A/B with the cheap previous speaker cables you had vs your new monsters :-) Did you get the silver/black or solid black 1080?

got new silver/black with dual hookups for speakers.
also did demo rotel 1092, some high level mcintosh and NAD.

as of pre amps I was told cheap ones will not be in different class from my yamaha, according to sales to really beat it up I wil need to get something in $2K+ area, plus I wanted not a pure pre-amp but a sound processor and he told me one new model should be in his store close to christmas time.

current rotel one has issues with hdmi, so I can wait.
frankly after replacing interconnects and optical cable I can see that sound improved a lot. next step will be upgrading 96/24 DAC into something better.

[utkinpol]

Haha, couldn't wait for the cheaper used stuff? I'm glad you got what you were looking for! What else did you demo while you were there? Did you look at pre/pro's at all? I would be interested in knowing what you think of an A/B with the cheap previous speaker cables you had vs your new monsters :-) Did you get the silver/black or solid black 1080?

to add more about pre-amps - of course they did have very nice units in store, but those pre-amps where 2 channel stereo only. hopefully in the end this year/beginnig next year we should see more new units with new DACs in 192kHz/48bit, or whatever it supposed to be, plus proper implementation of hdmi.

as of speaker cables - I tried old ones too, there were somewhat $1.5 per ft category wires about 30ft long, but new monsters definetely give better bass and mid-range, no question here.

Guy in the store wanted to sell me $300 worth better cables from audioquest but he only had 15ft packages and I needed 20ft long one for right speaker so I took those monsters. Frankly I think it would not be much diff sound wise between what I got ($120) and those $300 ones - as soon as gauge is suffecient and there is no significant loss of current sound should be quite undamaged.

Old wires were just plain too thin to pump wattage from new amplifier. He adviced to take second package of wires for bi-wiring but I am not sure if it makes sense with those thick wires... But probably will go get it anyway so I would just not have to think much about it.

Adding up more about cables - I tryed my old interconnects ($30 or so) and conpared `em to new ones I got - no diff whatsoever.
Where I did get a difference - I got new audioquest optical cable ($85) - that somehow gave quite a diff - now when I use yamaha`s dac instead of sony analog input I get quite same sound, previously sony`s was better, tried old optical cable and i think i heard some diff.
But, again, it may be all psychological BS - I may just hear what I want to hear, who knows.

[dknightd]

There is a lot to be said for hearing what you want to hear. Being happy is a good thing.

[mstang1988]

to add more about pre-amps - of course they did have very nice units in store, but those pre-amps where 2 channel stereo only. hopefully in the end this year/beginnig next year we should see more new units with new DACs in 192kHz/48bit, or whatever it supposed to be, plus proper implementation of hdmi.

as of speaker cables - I tried old ones too, there were somewhat $1.5 per ft category wires about 30ft long, but new monsters definetely give better bass and mid-range, no question here.

Guy in the store wanted to sell me $300 worth better cables from audioquest but he only had 15ft packages and I needed 20ft long one for right speaker so I took those monsters. Frankly I think it would not be much diff sound wise between what I got ($120) and those $300 ones - as soon as gauge is suffecient and there is no significant loss of current sound should be quite undamaged.

Old wires were just plain too thin to pump wattage from new amplifier. He adviced to take second package of wires for bi-wiring but I am not sure if it makes sense with those thick wires... But probably will go get it anyway so I would just not have to think much about it.

Adding up more about cables - I tryed my old interconnects ($30 or so) and conpared `em to new ones I got - no diff whatsoever.
Where I did get a difference - I got new audioquest optical cable ($85) - that somehow gave quite a diff - now when I use yamaha`s dac instead of sony analog input I get quite same sound, previously sony`s was better, tried old optical cable and i think i heard some diff.
But, again, it may be all psychological BS - I may just hear what I want to hear, who knows.

A good friend of mine (I'm actually just heading out to his home) has 805S's with rotel 10XX (can't remember, 56, 66, 76, something like that!). He could tell no difference when biwiring. Ath the very least it's something to consider! How did you like the 1092? I'm also waiting for HDMI 1.3a... I'm thinking the rumored parasound C3 used is what I'm looking for.

[utkinpol]

A good friend of mine (I'm actually just heading out to his home) has 805S's with rotel 10XX (can't remember, 56, 66, 76, something like that!). He could tell no difference when biwiring. Ath the very least it's something to consider! How did you like the 1092? I'm also waiting for HDMI 1.3a... I'm thinking the rumored parasound C3 used is what I'm looking for.

about 1092 - i used weather report sportin life tracks 2&3 and also tschaikovsky concerto 1 CDs, i think 1092 has less interesting midrange and bass, and just overall feeling was on side with 1080, may be, again, becouse I wanted it to be better.
since i was on $2K budget nitially i just ordered from amazom audioquest type 4 15 ft cables, will see if monster mcx-2s will be any diff / better.
some reviews say mcx-2s show articulated midrange but lack highs, i intend to put audioquest to tweeters first, well, it is not the problem anyway, if I decide to build proper HT system in basement all those cables will come handy. I spend more on wine monthly anyway.
As of no diff with bi-wiring - it always will be a diff in amount of distortions, but probably with big cables and good crossover it may be most likely neglected. still, an interesting thing to try on my own, i never had components good enought to investigate this matter, so I am just curious.

still wonder what to do for digital processor. I want to have as good DAC / pre amp as it gets so I could use sony dvp s7700 as a transport, so I need total of 3 optical feeds, 2 stereo feeds and one SPDIF. i can even discard dolby, it will be stereo 2 channel only setup thing - if sub can be connected to duplicated prime stereo output channel.

Any ideas other than already discussed parasound C3?

[mstang1988]

about 1092 - i used weather report sportin life tracks 2&3 and also tschaikovsky concerto 1 CDs, i think 1092 has less interesting midrange and bass, and just overall feeling was on side with 1080, may be, again, becouse I wanted it to be better.
since i was on $2K budget nitially i just ordered from amazom audioquest type 4 15 ft cables, will see if monster mcx-2s will be any diff / better.
some reviews say mcx-2s show articulated midrange but lack highs, i intend to put audioquest to tweeters first, well, it is not the problem anyway, if I decide to build proper HT system in basement all those cables will come handy. I spend more on wine monthly anyway.
As of no diff with bi-wiring - it always will be a diff in amount of distortions, but probably with big cables and good crossover it may be most likely neglected. still, an interesting thing to try on my own, i never had components good enought to investigate this matter, so I am just curious.

still wonder what to do for digital processor. I want to have as good DAC / pre amp as it gets so I could use sony dvp s7700 as a transport, so I need total of 3 optical feeds, 2 stereo feeds and one SPDIF. i can even discard dolby, it will be stereo 2 channel only setup thing - if sub can be connected to duplicated prime stereo output channel.

Any ideas other than already discussed parasound C3?

My impression of the 1092(1's) is much the same as yours. The output it produces is very detailed but almost sterile. Thus why I want my JC1's!

Hmm, what processor would do the job for you, soooooooooo many choices! What are you looking on spending? Do you need HDMI 1.3a?

[utkinpol]

Hmm, what processor would do the job for you, soooooooooo many choices! What are you looking on spending? Do you need HDMI 1.3a?

the most difficult task as usual is to define properly what is it "you need" rather than "you want".

i want a good modern processor i could use later in ht setup, but i need now exactly the thing i described in the previous message - a 2 channel pre-amp with decent DAC and several digital inputs.

it just probably does not make much sense to invest into such unit, i think. i realise that in the further simplicity it may be a rotel rc 1090 plus a separate stand alone DAC, but i am not ok with prices of those good stand alone DACs. i just think that 192kHz 24bit DAC in any new modern sound processor will be same good with price 2-3 times less.

But I am open to ideas. forums are much cheaper to get experience than Ebay.

[mstang1988]

I am actually in much the same predicmant as you actually! I've thought about getting a seperate DAC or a good modern processor and the decission is so tough. In my search for a DAC the Benchmark DAC1 seemed to get really good reviews but another unit with a similar price did better.

http://www.studioreviews.com/dac1-da10.htm

Slightly more expensive and I found http://www.belcantodesign.com/prod_eOneDAC3.html

Of course these can had be fore a more reasonable price used etc.

My real advice though is I would start asking this question in another thread outside of B&W and perhaps on a different site as a home theatre site may not be the best answer for your stereo question. I would give them a price and your goals and hope they have some good suggestions. If you are asking on audiogon forumns be aware vendors are often answering your questions. End the end almost every thread you post will get answered with the "Go listen" but hopefully before it ends there you will get a few suggestions. Send me a link if you decide to post somewhere else so I can follow the suggestions you received!

[utkinpol]

I am actually in much the same predicmant as you actually! I've thought about getting a seperate DAC or a good modern processor and the decission is so tough. In my search for a DAC the Benchmark DAC1 seemed to get really good reviews but another unit with a similar price did better.

http://www.studioreviews.com/dac1-da10.htm

Slightly more expensive and I found http://www.belcantodesign.com/prod_eOneDAC3.html

Of course these can had be fore a more reasonable price used etc.

My real advice though is I would start asking this question in another thread outside of B&W and perhaps on a different site as a home theatre site may not be the best answer for your stereo question. I would give them a price and your goals and hope they have some good suggestions. If you are asking on audiogon forumns be aware vendors are often answering your questions. End the end almost every thread you post will get answered with the "Go listen" but hopefully before it ends there you will get a few suggestions. Send me a link if you decide to post somewhere else so I can follow the suggestions you received!

It could have been a silly move on my behalf but I decided to try this unit from Ebay -
ZERO 24/192 DAC DA CONVERTOR, HEAD AMP(Upgrade Version) (180278760803)

Some folks were praising it on forums, so i decided to risk with my $180 and figure it out myself. In worst case scenario I will simply sell it back. If it will work out I can sell my reciever and get good balanced 2 channel pre-amp.