B&W 805s Distorting with Yamaha RX-V1

[RacerChris]

I just bought the Nautilus 805s to upgrade from 602s. First impression is they are an improvement, but not vast. IMO, this does not speak low of the 805s, but high of the 602s or maybe I am running into the limit of the rest of my system which consists of both CD & DVD-A sources, Yamaha RX-V1 which was their top-of-the-line receiver a few years ago & DH LABS SilverSonic Cables.

I was surprised to have found the volume limit of the 805s at -20db; which is loud, but not terrifically so in my 14x20 room. :E With the same system I have NEVER found the limit of the 602s which are rated at the same 120 wpc.

Could this be because the 805s take more power to drive (88 db vs 90db) or is it a limitation of the Receiver? Would getting 804s help? :lol:

[greggz]

The 805's are rated by B&W as 88 db but Stereophile measured them to be closer to 85.5 dB.

I suspect the culprit may be your receiver. I don’t have the article handy, but when Sound and Vision tested that receiver I believe they reported that it became seriously underpowered and clipped easily when all 5 channels were driven hard. Here is a link that makes mention to that finding and the hypothesis that the Yamaha performed poorly due to lack of voltage stabilization.

http://www.audioholics.com/FAQs/yamahaRX-V1receivertest.php

[RacerChris]

Gregg,

Thanks for the link. I did not know about this and although interesting, I am not sure it has alot of bearing on my issue. I was comparing speakers ONLY in two-channel mode.

Thanks though. You bring up a good point. The RX-V1 is a very written about Receiver. I will look online for more detailed info on the level of performance I can expect from this box.

Thanks!

[BlazeMaster]

if it sounds distorted and clips with 805s, wouldn't it be even worst with the 804s?

[Mark_C.]

All connections checked? The Yamaha's settings checked? Are you listening to the 805s in stereo through an analog passthrough, or are you including a sub in the mix?

[sikoniko]

Im not sure the answer you are looking for. It appears to me that you want someone to say that its not the receiver.

I would recommend going back to your dealer and asking to demo an amp just to see if you can tell a difference. You will still have the limitations of the yamaha as a pre, but at least you will see if it is an issue of not getting enough clean power to the speakers.

Re-stating my opinion of 800 series speakers, I believe when moving into these speakers, more HAS to be considered than just the speakers themselves. While it is possible you may have gotten some bad speakers, my first guess would be that it is only reproducing what is given to it.

[RacerChris]

if it sounds distorted and clips with 805s, wouldn't it be even worst with the 804s?

I would tend to agree, except that I NEVER had this or any other sign of overdriving the speakers with the 602s.

I am not sure that "clipping" is the correct term for what I am hearing. There is a boomming combined with a distortion is in the low bass and when it happens I can see the 805's woofer move ALOT.

The Mains are set to FULL and LFE is set to SUB Only. There is a sub, but it turned off.

[RacerChris]

Im not sure the answer you are looking for. It appears to me that you want someone to say that its not the receiver.

I would recommend going back to your dealer and asking to demo an amp just to see if you can tell a difference. You will still have the limitations of the yamaha as a pre, but at least you will see if it is an issue of not getting enough clean power to the speakers.

Re-stating my opinion of 800 series speakers, I believe when moving into these speakers, more HAS to be considered than just the speakers themselves. While it is possible you may have gotten some bad speakers, my first guess would be that it is only reproducing what is given to it.

Thanks for the reply.

I understand that with the B&W 805 or 804 in my system, the bottleneck moves from my old 602s to my Receiver. Which I can live with at least for now. What I can't live with is the fact that I cannot play my music at the level that I want. At this time, it seems the 805s combined with the Receiver can't do that. The question is, can the 804s?

In other words, in your opinion, since the receiver was driven at -20db with the 602s without distortion, -20db with the 805s with distortion, will the 804s distort? Probably not since 804s have some much more bass capabilities.

At any rate, I have bought 804s which will arrive Monday, so I will be able to check first hand...

602s 90db
805 88db
804 89 db

[sikoniko]

My opinion is that the 804's will distort at lower volumes. They are a very inefficient speaker. That was my experience.

Are you running the mains at full for test purposes only?

[RacerChris]

My opinion is that the 804's will distort at lower volumes. They are a very inefficient speaker. That was my experience.

Are you running the mains at full for test purposes only?

No, I have always run my mains are full; doesn't everybody. I thought you set your speakers to SMALL only if they are a satellite, ie, very small speaker. I am no audiophile here, so correct me if wrong... :lol:

[Aussie Geoff]

RacerChris,

I am 99% confident that what you are describing is your Yamaha reciever running out of current and / or struggling to drive the difficult load that the 805s present. Basically they have a wile impedence, inductance and phase angle curve with (for example) the impedence in the mid-bass varying from something close to 3 ohms to over 40 ohms, while simultaneously going through some gymnastastics in phase angle and inductance. The reciever at more than very low volumes is simply not likely to be able to follow the speakers demands, creating strange mid-bass (this is a very common problem with the Nautiluis range fed by less than great amplification).

IMO - you should borrow a qualuty separate amp and try it in your home using the Yamaha as a pre-processor - I think you will be amazed!

Geoff

[RacerChris]

RacerChris,

I am 99% confident that what you are describing is your Yamaha reciever running out of current and / or struggling to drive the difficult load that the 805s present. Basically they have a wile impedence, inductance and phase angle curve with (for example) the impedence in the mid-bass varying from something close to 3 ohms to over 40 ohms, while simultaneously going through some gymnastastics in phase angle and inductance. The reciever at more than very low volumes is simply not likely to be able to follow the speakers demands, creating strange mid-bass (this is a very common problem with the Nautiluis range fed by less than great amplification).

IMO - you should borrow a qualuty separate amp and try it in your home using the Yamaha as a pre-processor - I think you will be amazed!

Geoff

Geoff,

Thanks for the reply. What you said makes sense and, based on this, I should expect similar problems with the 804s. I'll test them when I receive them on Monday.

Strange thing is that I bought these from a guy that was driving them with a Yamaha DSP-A1. Am not sure what size room and/or how loud he drive his, but he said they sounded great with his amp. If the problem presists, then I will definitely look into getting a better amp. Any suggestion? Probably only need three channels; to drive the 804s and HTM2. My rear are three CCM65 in-ceiling speakers which I doubt will definitely from better amplication...you think?

Thanks again,

Chris

[sikoniko]

PM me for a contact on a good price of a Cinnenova Grande 3. 300Wx3. I use th 5 w/ my 804's and htm1. Sounds great and will get a great price on it.

[DrBoom]

Speaking of "not loud enough",
kinda reminds of this one time (I used to work at a hifi store) where this guy bought 805's paired with a Marantz PM14 KI Signature amp.
So I went to deliver and install this pretty nice (and expensive) setup, expecting him to be somewhat of an audiophile and have a nice place to put everything.
First thing he asks when I start unpacking the 805's "How loud can they play ?" :roll:
Then he gets out this dusyt old $200 Yamaha CD player, and he wants me to hook it up to the Marantz PM14, and connect his PC soundcard to the amp as well.
Then he asks to put one speaker on the windowshelf (about 30cm off the ground), and the other one on top of a 1.20m high cabinet across the room.
And for the grand finale, when everything was set up like he wanted, he gets out some old scratched up Roy Orbison CD (that was all he could find), puts it in the el-cheapo Yamaha cd player and cranks the volume of the amp to somewhere around 3/4 (3 o'clock position) 8O
I just wanted to pack up everything again and take it back to the store, some people shouldn't be allowed to buy hifi equipment. :sos:

I don't mean anything by this, just a funny anecdote that crossed my mind

That being said, I don't know if the 805 is really a speaker that likes to be played "loud".
And by "loud" I mean the bass part of it, I think they would benefit from being run "small" with a subwoofer.
Then again, I've heard the 705 (though it is more efficient) play very loud full range with a Mark Levinson amp in a rather large auditorium, so it's not because it's a small speaker that it can't play loudly or handle bass.
The woofer was really pushing it, even on the virge of the maximum power handling as well I think, but it didn't distort at all with a very dynamic movie soundtrack (on a soundtrack CD, not a movie).
I even remember they blew up a 704's mid/woofer section just before that, in the same room with the same amp so it was THAT loud
Luckily it was at B&W's own demo auditorium at their factory so they didn't really care about blowing 1 up.

[RacerChris]

Received the Nautilus 804s and hooked them up. One word comes to mind. W-O-W! Seriously. These are sweet speakers! I don't think I'll have to upgrade these speakers EVER!

I bought these bad boys for $2000 on AudioGon from someone that did not seem to understand what he had. Sounds like he hardly ever listen to them. I'm afraid they may have seen so little use that I will have to break them in. They sound a bit bright which I am hopeful will smooth out with more use. Do you guys think so? :roll:

Anyways, I am finding that it was the 805s that was hitting their limit; not the Yamaha RX-V1. I can turn up the volume as high on the 804s without distortion. I suspect that it was related to the track I was playing. It had alot of bass and was probably asking the little bass/mid driver on the 805 to do too much.... :E

Too sum it up; I'm happy now and proud Parent of a pair of Nautilus 804s in Natural Cherrywood! :lol:

Thanks guys for all your help!

[sikoniko]

great! you will surely continue to grow in your enjoyment of the speakers.

[greggz]

I still think the N804's are too hard for your receiver to drive. I think you should return them buy these speakers instead. They can be run off as little as 2 watts. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



They list for $89,000 but you can get a dealer demo pair on audiogon right now for $74,900. Such a deal!

[RacerChris]

I still think the N804's are too hard for your receiver to drive. I think you should return them buy these speakers instead. They can be run off as little as 2 watts. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:



They list for $89,000 but you can get a dealer demo pair on audiogon right now for $74,900. Such a deal!

Already got a pair of those in my bedroom :rofl: :B :E But ever since I installed them, haven't been able to find the bed!!!1 :P 8O :roll: :evil: :twisted: :T :E : : :rofl: :rofl:

[sikoniko]

man... i cant even stop laughing when i look at that pic... i can't believe someone would actually buy them, no matter how good they sound. i guess the purpose of the big horn things is to reproduce actual brass instruments?

[jlee]

Is that a real pic or digitally altered as a joke? To me, that is just too funny. I wonder how the WAF comes into play here...

[Fife]

As Aussie Geoff states,

I am 99% confident that what you are describing is your Yamaha reciever running out of current and / or struggling to drive the difficult load that the 805s present.

I agree completely.

Anyways, these are a B&W owners dream....

...or not.
:T

[greggz]

Is that a real pic or digitally altered as a joke? To me, that is just too funny. I wonder how the WAF comes into play here...

No joke, they are for real.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1102730812

Hey Fife, here's a couple more for you




(FOUL! inappropriate use of Matrix 802s)

[Fife]

HI Gregg,

Yeah I have seen the AC2 site. The japanese have really nice HIGH END stuff.
This one is crazy.
Here's the whole room.
3 pairs of Matrix 800's as front left/right, surrounds AND rears. 1 pair of Matrix 802 as centers again.

Crazy. :drool:

[BlazeMaster]

oh my goodness....imagine how good it sounds though. I'm saving up for one of those setups....I'm 24 now, should be able to have it by the time I turn 50. But then, I might need hearing aid to help me enjoy them.