BIAMP 804S or upgrade to 803S or 803D

[uncle_dito]

Hello everybody,
I have 804S with MF A5 CR Power/pre/CD for about 9 months. Lovely and excellent sound. But I miss a weightier bass. Has anybody biamped 804S and would be kind to report back improvements heard? In that case, I would consider purchasing another MF A5 Power (about 1800€). Another option would be to try to trade in my B&W804S for 803S or 803D. What do you think? what trade in value would I get for my B&W804S. 803D list price is 8000€, twice B&W804S. So it is a more expensive and spacey option than buying another AMP and biamping. regards. :roll:

[miner]

For the dollar/value/bass factor I would suggest biwire your 804S and add an ASW825. I was contemplating the same situation as you but my mains are N804. I first biwired and liked what I got in bass return. I then added an ASW800 sub and have not looked back since (plus I got a heck of a deal on the discontinued ASW800 - $1350).

[sikoniko]

If 2 channel is your desire, I'd recommend the 803s or 803d.

[tboooe]

You will get your biggest improvement by changing your speakers. Go for the 803s...

[bigburner]

You will get your biggest improvement by changing your speakers.

I agree.

How are you Tommy? Got rid of that hiss yet?

Nigel.

[Jesse111]

Biamping will give you very little if any benefit unless you also incorporate an active crossover. It's debatable if biwiring does anything at all. If bass is what you are after then a sub or different speakers are the next step for sure. The 803 is fairly good at bass but is more about accuracy than weighty bass. B&W doesn't really offer abundant bass untill the 802 level.

Going to the 803D from an 804S would be a nice improvement in every aspect of the sound. Expect better musical bass. But not in abundance. As a two channel music only guy, I'd go for the 803D first then perhaps a sub later. But HT guys may prefer heavy bass over musical accuracy and go with a sub first.

[Briz vegas]

I use a Rel Strata 5 with my 804s.

My 804 system does not provide huge bass, however bass improved out of sight on the weekend when I had a loan Naim5x cd player with outboard power supply. Lots of nice tight bass weight that had me pretty darn happy - but I am not a bass freak. I was just after a good solid and musical sound. I'm kind of missing it alot while I save up a few more sheckles so I can bring the Naim home for good (providing I don't get distracted by something else shiny).

[miner]

It all comes down to what you are willing to spend. I still say adding a sub will be the most cost-efficient way of improvong bass. The 803D will not match an 804S + sub for bass response.

[uncle_dito]

Many thanks for your feedback. I guess you would recommend B&W sub for matching with B&W804S.

[johan]

Go for 803D, much better speaker than 804 and 803S. And experiment some with speaker placement, there can be big differences in especially bass response.

Good luck!

[miner]

Many thanks for your feedback. I guess you would recommend B&W sub for matching with B&W804S.

Adding an ASW825 sub will cost approx. $2200. Can you get a pair of 803D for that? Plus if you ever decide to go the HT route you will just need to add a pair of rears and center channel speaker to the mix. In the end, it is totally your choice and by all means let your ears be your judge. :T

[tboooe]

I agree.

How are you Tommy? Got rid of that hiss yet?

Nigel.

Nigel! GREAT to hear from you!!! Yes, I got rid of my hiss by doing what any true audhiophile would...i swapped out my entire front end (pre, cdp, amps, and cables). That did the trick!!!! :wink:

How are things in New Zealand? Are you still rockin out????

[Angioguy]

Until recently, I was driving the 803S with a 400 wpc Mac, and even with that amount of clean power, I was lacking the bass I wanted, so I got a sub. Since I upgraded to the 802D's, the Velodyne DD-12 has continued to be an integral part of my system.

IMHO, I think you will be disappointed if you biamp. What you need is a good subwoofer. Adding this to your 804S would be a terrific way to go-- the price difference you'll pay going from the 804S to the 803S ($5500) or to the 803D ($9000) can be substantially less if you go with any of a variety of good subs instead. Personal recommendations--> Velodyne DD-10, Revel B-12, Rel... even the B&W's!

Good luck!

[bigburner]

Nigel! GREAT to hear from you!!! Yes, I got rid of my hiss by doing what any true audhiophile would...i swapped out my entire front end (pre, cdp, amps, and cables). That did the trick!!!! :wink:

How are things in New Zealand? Are you still rockin out????

Tommy, this has been a fantastic year for new music. I've listened to more CDs and watched more music DVDs than any other year in my life. I have a modest system compared to many others on this forum but I am really enjoying it.

[bigburner]

uncle_dito, I agree with the members who have recommended a sub as a cost effective way of obtaining the improved bass that you want. I purchased an ASW750 because my CDM9NT 3-way floorstanders weren't giving me enough bass. The improvement has been enormous.

A couple of observations about my sub. Firstly, I wish that it had a remote volume control because I am constantly adjusting it for each new CD or music DVD. Secondly, I have found that the best integration for 2-channel music (my interest) is achieved by placing the sub right in the middle of the floorstanders. It is also readily accessible in that position for changing the volume.

Nigel.

[Mark_C.]

I have supplemented my Nautilus 804s with a Rel Storm III for the past three years and have been very satisfied. This combination sounds better to me than a pair of N803s alone. I made these comparisons in my home about three years ago, when I was going through the same issue as you are now in regards to the 804-803.

[uncle_dito]

Great advice folks (adding a SUB)

From what I understand, I will need to decide for the sub to be connected either to my HiFi Power Amplifier, or to the LFE sub output in the HT AVR for movies. I guess we can´t have all, although I have already been adviced on some tricks to listen to Hifi and take advantage of the SUB connected to HT.

I take the opportunity to wish you a Merry Christmas.

[Mark_C.]

Take a close look at the Rels. They are made to be used either as LFE or sub-bass, in which case the sub is connected directly to the amp's R/L speaker terminals and the sub receives the identical signal going to the main speakers. The listener can then adjust the sub's crossover by blending it with the mains.

[uncle_dito]

Take a close look at the Rels. They are made to be used either as LFE or sub-bass, in which case the sub is connected directly to the amp's R/L speaker terminals and the sub receives the identical signal going to the main speakers. The listener can then adjust the sub's crossover by blending it with the mains.

Hi Mark,
I have been looking at REL´s web. They mention a "unique" capability for simultaneous connection of hi (I guess speaker L/R OR PreOUT) and low (LFE) frequencies, so in theory I could connect my Hifi POWER AMP preout/speakers and also my HT LFE and the SUB would be able to handle both signals simulatenously if required. Is this the case with your REL? I need some clarification, because with other SUBs, all the wording seem to go for Hifi connection OR HT, but not AND, as it would be my need:

For Movies: I would like to connect the AVR Front Preout to my MF A5 HT input and use my mains as front speakers, and use the AVR LFE to the SUB.
Also, I would use the PREOUT of my A5 CR Power amplifier to feed the Hi frequency of the SUB so I get bass improvement from the Front speakes in addition to the LFE effects.

For music, in addition to the 804S mains, I would use the Preout from A5cR power to the SUB, to enhance 2Ch bass mains response.

Do you think I could do this with REL Storm III?

On another note, I have seen a Rel Storm 3 second hand ad for 900€ (from 2002). Would you recommend it still or should I look to other newer REL models? From your previous response, I see you are happy and I guess they blend well with your N804S.

Would you or other HT members know if B&W ASW825 would allow simultaneous connection of low and hi frequencies from Hifi and HT?

Regards and Merry Christmas

[Mark_C.]

Hi Mark,
I have been looking at REL´s web. They mention a "unique" capability for simultaneous connection of hi (I guess speaker L/R OR PreOUT) and low (LFE) frequencies, so in theory I could connect my Hifi POWER AMP preout/speakers and also my HT LFE and the SUB would be able to handle both signals simulatenously if required.

I'm not sure it can perform two duties simultaneously, but yes, you can have separate settings for two-channel and home theater, depending on what you want. I use my Storm III in a two-channel system only, and have never played with the HT setup.

On another note, I have seen a Rel Storm 3 second hand ad for 900€ (from 2002). Would you recommend it still or should I look to other newer REL models? From your previous response, I see you are happy and I guess they blend well with your N804S.

I'm only familiar with US dollars. I purchased mine used about three years ago for about 1,100.00. I'm sure you can find them used (black in color) for $800-900. And yes, I'm very pleased with the blending of the N804s with the Storm III. The 804s are rated down to 38 hz, and the Storm is set to 32 hz. The slopes intersect subtly. (B&W and Rel support were very good about offering me suggestions on how to blend the two).

Would you or other HT members know if B&W ASW825 would allow simultaneous connection of low and hi frequencies from Hifi and HT?

Don't know about B&W subs; maybe someone else can chime in?

Regards and Merry Christmas

Likewise

Peace to all

[alebonau]

I'm not sure it can perform two duties simultaneously, but yes, you can have separate settings for two-channel and home theater, depending on what you want. I use my Storm III in a two-channel system only, and have never played with the HT setup.



I'm only familiar with US dollars. I purchased mine used about three years ago for about 1,100.00. I'm sure you can find them used (black in color) for $800-900. And yes, I'm very pleased with the blending of the N804s with the Storm III. The 804s are rated down to 38 hz, and the Storm is set to 32 hz. The slopes intersect subtly. (B&W and Rel support were very good about offering me suggestions on how to blend the two).



Don't know about B&W subs; maybe someone else can chime in?




Likewise

Peace to all

not sure on the storm 3 but the stadium 3 I demoed most certainly could be hooked upto the 2ch power amp terminals to feed it high level signal for 2ch and could also be hooked upto LFE out of the avr/pre-pro to feed it line level signal for LFE/sub duties for HT.

maybe have a read of some reviews eg these ones give some additional thoughts on their particualr setup..

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0704/relstadiumiii.htm

http://www.avguide.com/products/product-340/?download=%2Ffile-download%3Freview%3D84

[akhter]

Hello everybody,
I have 804S with MF A5 CR Power/pre/CD for about 9 months. Lovely and excellent sound. But I miss a weightier bass. Has anybody biamped 804S and would be kind to report back improvements heard? In that case, I would consider purchasing another MF A5 Power (about 1800€). Another option would be to try to trade in my B&W804S for 803S or 803D. What do you think? what trade in value would I get for my B&W804S. 803D list price is 8000€, twice B&W804S. So it is a more expensive and spacey option than buying another AMP and biamping. regards. :roll:

I added a Velo DD12 to my bi-amped N804 and the bass is fantastic. I doubt anything short of a 802D with thousands in amplification will match my bass (mids and highs are a different matter ).

I auditioned REL subs and they do supposed both Stereo and HT connections simultaneously, but I prefered the Velo DD.

I hookup my sub to the stereo L+R pre-outs of my receiver, and in the speaker settings, set the fronts to LARGE and subwoofer to NONE so I get good bass in pure analog stereo as well as for digital 5.1. This setup works great for me, but will not work for you if you have mulichannel analog inputs (like sacd or dvd-a).

[alebonau]

I added a Velo DD12 to my bi-amped N804 and the bass is fantastic. I doubt anything short of a 802D with thousands in amplification will match my bass (mids and highs are a different matter ).

I auditioned REL subs and they do supposed both Stereo and HT connections simultaneously, but I prefered the Velo DD.

I hookup my sub to the stereo L+R pre-outs of my receiver, and in the speaker settings, set the fronts to LARGE and subwoofer to NONE so I get good bass in pure analog stereo as well as for digital 5.1. This setup works great for me, but will not work for you if you have mulichannel analog inputs (like sacd or dvd-a).

I wasnt convinced with demoing the REL Stadium either on 2ch or hT but that could be quite likely due to the completely incompetant sales guy demoing. I ended up goign the velo DD15 instead. But do think the RELS probably quite capable too and hence if seriously considering, a home demo and spending some serious time with it would be absolutely necessary to getting a good feel for them I reckon.

The DD12 which I demoed or the DD15 that I own I could recommend without question, very easy to setup and integrate. Btu again to uncle probably best you come to yoru own conclusions with some demoing here.

[uncle_dito]

I hookup my sub to the stereo L+R pre-outs of my receiver, and in the speaker settings, set the fronts to LARGE and subwoofer to NONE so I get good bass in pure analog stereo as well as for digital 5.1. This setup works great for me, but will not work for you if you have mulichannel analog inputs (like sacd or dvd-a).

Hi akhter,
In your configuration, when you listen to movies (ie. 5.1), do you think the sub gets the same information as if it were connected only to the LFE from your receiver? Have you done comparisons with your system connecting only to the LFE output for movies (setting SUBWOOFER TO YES in the AVR)?
regards and happy new year

[akhter]

Hi akhter,
In your configuration, when you listen to movies (ie. 5.1), do you think the sub gets the same information as if it were connected only to the LFE from your receiver? Have you done comparisons with your system connecting only to the LFE output for movies (setting SUBWOOFER TO YES in the AVR)?
regards and happy new year

I haven't done actual comparisions but I asked around in the Arcam forum (I have and Arcam AVR300 receiver), people seem to think in that configuration, with the sub set to none, and fronts set to Large, the DSP will route all LFE signals to the Fronts. Since I have been pretty happy with the 5.1 performance, I never felt the need to actually test it otherwise.

[akhter]

Hi akhter,
In your configuration, when you listen to movies (ie. 5.1), do you think the sub gets the same information as if it were connected only to the LFE from your receiver? Have you done comparisons with your system connecting only to the LFE output for movies (setting SUBWOOFER TO YES in the AVR)?
regards and happy new year

What kind of receiver do you have?

[gerardhn]

uncle dito
I know 804, 803s, 803d and 802d!
I assume you want perfect stereo.
I assure you 803d has more and better bass than 803s and 804.
803d is a perfect speaker! With the right amount of bass.
If you find this too little... then improve your electronics or... adjust your tuste.
IMHO combining a speaker like 803D with a sub for stereo, is like ..I dont make a comparasion. But I dont understand that..
So take the 803 D and get used to it...

[uncle_dito]

What kind of receiver do you have?

Hi akhter
Thanks for your earlier comments on your system.

As of today I have Sony STRDB2000 AVR with Sony Pascal multichannel speakers (SAVE835D: 5x egg type, plus 200W subwoofer with only LFE input), very nice, but the AVR has no Front preout, so I am looking to upgrade it to the new Sony STRDA5200ES, the new ES series from Sony, which have great connectivity and sound.

As of today, I have my Hifi separated from my HT, thus my inquiries on some integration. Also the concern on the bass from 804S.

Happy new year.

[uncle_dito]

uncle dito
I know 804, 803s, 803d and 802d!
I assume you want perfect stereo.
I assure you 803d has more and better bass than 803s and 804.
803d is a perfect speaker! With the right amount of bass.
If you find this too little... then improve your electronics or... adjust your tuste.
IMHO combining a speaker like 803D with a sub for stereo, is like ..I dont make a comparasion. But I dont understand that..
So take the 803 D and get used to it...

Hi gerardhn,
Thanks for your comments. Indeed 803D are quite desirable, I am still struggling with wife due to size (!) of speakers.
Happy new year

[gerardhn]

Uncle
803 d is not big.
buy it and after a week you and your wife will be proud of it.
you get used to it very rapidly

[akhter]

Hi akhter
Thanks for your earlier comments on your system.

As of today I have Sony STRDB2000 AVR with Sony Pascal multichannel speakers (SAVE835D: 5x egg type, plus 200W subwoofer with only LFE input), very nice, but the AVR has no Front preout, so I am looking to upgrade it to the new Sony STRDA5200ES, the new ES series from Sony, which have great connectivity and sound.

As of today, I have my Hifi separated from my HT, thus my inquiries on some integration. Also the concern on the bass from 804S.

Happy new year.

Are your HT and stereo setups in the same location or in different rooms?

[RebelMan]

Bi-amping the 804S is not going to fill the bass void you hope to achieve. Upgrading to the 803S will provide minor gain but the 803D will deliver the best return by far. Although I have done it, I am not a proponent of subwoofer integration into a two-channel stereo system especially when only one subwoofer will do.

As others have mentioned, and I agree, a subwoofer will provide the biggest bang for your buck. However, it will not deliver the precision or the speed of attack that the smaller drivers in the 803D can but it will fill the room.

If you are focused on bettering two-channel playback consider the 803D but if cinema is the cards and you fancy special effects then consider two subwoofers to adequately buttress both desires.

[uncle_dito]

Are your HT and stereo setups in the same location or in different rooms?

I have them in the same room fairly close together
regards,

[uncle_dito]

Bi-amping the 804S is not going to fill the bass void you hope to achieve. Upgrading to the 803S will provide minor gain but the 803D will deliver the best return by far. Although I have done it, I am not a proponent of subwoofer integration into a two-channel stereo system especially when only one subwoofer will do.

As others have mentioned, and I agree, a subwoofer will provide the biggest bang for your buck. However, it will not deliver the precision or the speed of attack that the smaller drivers in the 803D can but it will fill the room.

If you are focused on bettering two-channel playback consider the 803D but if cinema is the cards and you fancy special effects then consider two subwoofers to adequately buttress both desires.

Hi Rebelman,
From B&W specs, Frecuency response improves 3Hz in low frecuecies down to 35Hz ±3dB on reference axis on 803D, vs 804S with 38Hz. Subwoofer should cover lower frequencies, so I am now wondering if what I could be missing in bass/texture (more colour and body; feel even more the strings when the cello is playing; deeper resonance of piano) is really subwoofer range, or maybe some upper bass frecuencies. So even if frecuency response is sort of similar between 803D and 804S according to web specs, we don´t know how 803D behaves in the +/- 3dB spec, but I would guess that due to a larger speaker size and 3 subwoofers, 803D will behave with more linearity than 804S, and maybe this is what I am missing. Lately I am getting suggestions to try a parametric equalizer to sort out my taste. Does it make sense?

[RebelMan]

Lately I am getting suggestions to try a parametric equalizer to sort out my taste. Does it make sense?

What are you pursuing, more volumetric bass or more accuracy and weight in the bass you already have? What are you looking to improve, two-channel music or multi-channel cinema?

[uncle_dito]

What are you pursuing, more volumetric bass or more accuracy and weight in the bass you already have? What are you looking to improve, two-channel music or multi-channel cinema?

I am looking to improve stereo listening.

[dami0n]

Go for the 803D then. The quality of the bass you get with them will be much better than any sub. Also better integration. You also get the added bonus of the Diamond tweeter so smoother highs too.