Help, please critique my system so I can pull the trigger!

[maxy]

Hi!
This is my first post - but I have been lurking around for the last 2 months. I am finally finishing the research and demoing phase and am about to pull the trigger this week. This is my system so far (I can't even begin to tell you how drastically this system changed, went from looking at B&W 600s to 700s to 805 to 804 - now totally switched to wall mountable speakers - WAF and 1 year toddler who likes to knock things down). For now I have decided to stick to building a HT system and when the kid gets bigger in a couple of years then go back and build a dedicated audio system. This is the system so far:

Speakers
B&W FPM 5 (sides)
B&W FPM 6 (center)
SCMS (rear)

Woofer
Still debating between Velodyne DD-10, PV1, ASW700

Receiver
Rotel 1057

DVD
Oppo 971H

TV
Panasonic 8UK (50inch)

So a couple of questions
1. What should I use for the back speakers (FPM2 or SMCS?)
2. Should I get a dedicated CD player (i.e. Rotel 1072) since Oppo isn't great with audio? I'm opting to go with the Oppo instead of the expensive Rotel 1092 because I'm going to upgrade in a couple of years when the Blu-Ray/HD DVD fight is over.
3. Is it worth it to upgrade from the receiver to components (1068 and 1075). My initial thoughts were not to since I didn't end up getting the 804
4. Any suggestions on the subwoofer?
5. Instead of using Rotel for the receiver, should I do the Denon AVR-3806 instead?
6. Finally, what % do dealers usually give if you purchase the whole system (except DVD, TV and potentially woofer) from them (10, 15 or 20%)?

Thanks for any help and input. Hopefully I'm going to pull the trigger this week (unless I get suckered into listening to the 804s again and change my mind!)

[WI Rotel]

If you want a wall mountable system that will do music and HT, I recommend you go with an XT system rather than the FPM series. Of course, they will not be as "hidden" as the FMP but they are wall mountable, look great and are just as good with music as with HT, an elegant simple solution. Simply use XT2's for mains and rears an XTC for center and a PV1 sub. As for the receiver I would skip it altogether and go for an RSP 1068 with an RMB 1075 amp. It will cost you a little more than a receiver but the sound will blow any receiver out of the water. With such a combo I doubt you will be hard pressed to upgrade in a few years. If so inclined, you could use 2 XTC's mounted vertically as mains too but that would cost you more and I'm not certain if it would change the sound significantly. Good luck and happy listening! :T

[miner]

I, too, concur with WI Rotel on the separates issue. I am not familiar with your speaker choices. I have read an have demoed the PV1 - impressive for its size plus it looks great with the XTC speakers.

[stewfoo]

The FPM's are great speakers for their application. And they look great too. The recomendation that I would make is to stay with the same speaker family when setting up your system. For example, if you go with FPM's, do them all around (ideally). You will particularly notice the benefits in panning scenes and multichannel music. You want a seamless transition from front to back. Also, the WAF will be higher if you go with fpm's rather than XT's. You can change out the frame of the fpm from silver to black to match your components.

Regarding subwoofers, you really are comparing apples and oranges. The pv1 is not meant to have the HT impact that the DD-10 is. I am running a DD-18 in my system and when I was playing Polar Express on my new Classe DVD player, my house shook like a train was coming through. The dd series offers a lot more flexibility and tunabilty than the others. You are given an on-screen display and RTA to analyze and equalize the sub to match your mains. With the FPM series this is particularly important. They are beautifully voiced. But, they have no bass. With the relatively high crossover point (80-100hz or so??) you want a very quick, agile, and accurate sub that can blend with the system.

[WI Rotel]

The FPM's are great speakers for their application. And they look great too. The recomendation that I would make is to stay with the same speaker family when setting up your system. For example, if you go with FPM's, do them all around (ideally). You will particularly notice the benefits in panning scenes and multichannel music. You want a seamless transition from front to back. Also, the WAF will be higher if you go with fpm's rather than XT's. You can change out the frame of the fpm from silver to black to match your components.

Regarding subwoofers, you really are comparing apples and oranges. The pv1 is not meant to have the HT impact that the DD-10 is. I am running a DD-18 in my system and when I was playing Polar Express on my new Classe DVD player, my house shook like a train was coming through. The dd series offers a lot more flexibility and tunabilty than the others. You are given an on-screen display and RTA to analyze and equalize the sub to match your mains. With the FPM series this is particularly important. They are beautifully voiced. But, they have no bass. With the relatively high crossover point (80-100hz or so??) you want a very quick, agile, and accurate sub that can blend with the system.

I agree that which ever way you go stay with the same series. I must object to the PV1 for HT though. The PV1 is small in output so for large aplications 2 may be required as in my case. However, they are fantastic for HT. My pair of PV1's shakes my whole house! But it is true that for a large room it is an expensive solution. For music, however they are probably second to none.

[RebelMan]

For now I have decided to stick to building a HT system and when the kid gets bigger in a couple of years then go back and build a dedicated audio system.

So a couple of questions
1. What should I use for the back speakers (FPM2 or SMCS?)
2. Should I get a dedicated CD player (i.e. Rotel 1072) since Oppo isn't great with audio? I'm opting to go with the Oppo instead of the expensive Rotel 1092 because I'm going to upgrade in a couple of years when the Blu-Ray/HD DVD fight is over.
3. Is it worth it to upgrade from the receiver to components (1068 and 1075). My initial thoughts were not to since I didn't end up getting the 804
4. Any suggestions on the subwoofer?
5. Instead of using Rotel for the receiver, should I do the Denon AVR-3806 instead?
6. Finally, what % do dealers usually give if you purchase the whole system (except DVD, TV and potentially woofer) from them (10, 15 or 20%)?

Thanks for any help and input. Hopefully I'm going to pull the trigger this week (unless I get suckered into listening to the 804s again and change my mind!)

A few answers...
1. I concur with stewfoo, stick with the FPM2 surrounds to maintain timbre between the front and rear.
2. Since your emphasis is on building a dedicated HT system choose the Oppo. It excels on video and will suffice on audio plus it will save you some money until you a ready to make a long term investment.
3. The RSX-1057 and the RSP-1068 circuit topologies use the same DACs, ADCs, and DSP's and are audibly indistinguishable. The 1057 is more than adequet for driving the FPM's and again would be a smarter use of your money for the time being. Not until the high-definition format wars have settled and you are ready to invest in a quality two-channel system should you consider separates.
4. I prefer B&W subwoofers because they are well balanced between HT and 2CH. But, for a strictly HT system I would recommend the Velodyne DD-12 or better.
5. Denon makes great HT receivers and Rotel makes great 2CH receivers. I prefer Rotel for their musical abilities but you may prefer Denon for their flexibility.
6. Industry discounts average around 15% for B&W and Rotel equipment.

[Nolan B]

ill give my two cents and pictures since I have a very similar system to the one you are contemplating.

FPMs are great speakers and you wont be sacrificing sound quality for HT or music. They are very underated speakers. If the XT4s are wall mountable that may be a good option as well, but dont expect any sort of major sound improvement over the FPMs. I have a rotel 1067 powering my FPMs and it is a perfect match. There isnt a big different between the 1067 and seperates if you are looking for an all in one solution. I will say that you are much better off going with seperates becuase in the next 18 months you will have to upgrade your processor if you want to switch to the new format. That way you wont have to trade in or sell your whole reciever...just the processor.

Stay with FPM 2s as surounds. I have FPM 4s as my surounds only becuase my room is large and I like listening to muliti channel music and use 5 channel stereo for parties. If i was only concerned with movies I would have got FPM 2s.

PV1 is a great sub, and depending on your room size 1 may be enough. With out a doubt if I live in a house and not a loft I would own 2 of them...without question. Make sure you pic the right sub with your FPMs as I found some worked and some didnt. The Vienna Accustics Subson (i think its called) also went nice.

Here is a pic of my system

the surounds are wall mounted and the reason I went with stands for the front is because I wanted the system angled.

[WI Rotel]

I must put 2cts on the separates again. I switched a 1067 for separates, the difference is night and day, literally. Although the 1067 uses the same DAC's as the 1068, that's pretty much it, all the analog circuitry, power supplies and accesory contruction is different (there is a reason why a pre/pro costs the same as a reciever!). The noise floor on a separates system is orders of magnitude lower. Dynamic power on an RMB 1075 is magnitudes higher than on a 1067 so is distortion vs frequency at rated power. The RM1067 is nice for a reciever but it doesnt even come close sonically to a RSP1068/ RMB1075 combo, even though RMS is only 25 watts difference. BTW the XT4's are not mountable (they weigh 50lbs) but all other XT's are. The FPM's are not bad for music at any measure, but the XT's are much better (specifically for music applications) and don't cost a lot more, most reviewers have compared the XT's to the 7 series sonically, no one has done so for the FPM. The FPM, however are much thinner thus are less visually obstructive when hung. Here is a link to my pics, you can use the side pic of the mounted XTC to get a feel of mounted XT's since the all are of the same depth. The XT2 aer very unobtrusive mains (sub required of course) since the are very small.http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=893

here's a link to the only full system review I have seen.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=1373

Note the sub comments which I agree with for a big room you definitely need 2 (pricey but looks fantastic and sounds better than any single sub regarless of price)

[Nolan B]

Its true the FPMs are not at the level of the 700 series, but they are rated higher then the 600 series (by B&W). Some hear big differences with the 1067 vs 1068 and 1075 while others only here a slight difference. The debate is ongoing over at the Rotel forum.

There are however more things in common with the 1067 and the 1068/1075 combo then just the DACs. For instance both units use a Toroidial transformer which is not found in the 1056 or 1057 and the processing in the 1067 is not inferior to the 1068. Regardless, the seperates do sound better and is a better option if you have the space..no question. Keep in mind if you go seperates you dont have a tuner.

Here is a link to a review form a source trusted by many if you want a more technical view on the 1067

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_1/rotel-rsx-1067-receiver-1-2005.html

[maxy]

First off - thanks EVERYONE for all the input. I really appreciate it! My wife has been reading this thread and wants to thank those of you who are looking out for her interests too (and she likes your pictures).

1. I never heard the XT. We went to the dealer and it got nixed immediately (did not pass the WAF - especially since she fell in love with the rosenut finish on the 805, two seconds later). But after a heated debate over dinner - we are ready to reconsider them. So will head over the dealership tomorrow to demo and see IRL.
2. FPM - should I just do the FPM2s in the rear? Will that be sufficient? I'm not sure WHEN I will be able to buy the 804s after this HT purchase (our house will be the kids domain for at least the next 5-7 years). So I will be using these speakers for music and HT for the time being. The room is not huge, 22' X 15'. If I can get by with just the FPM2s, I would be saving a significant chunk of change that I can put elsewhere.
3. Woofers - my room spec is 22' x 15'. I think one PV1 will be sufficient. The Velo DD12 will break my budget. I can stretch to the Velo 10 though. But seems like everyone here thinks the PV1 will sound great. Vancouver - did you try pairing your system with the SVS subs. I heard they were more "bang of the buck" and the PV1 were overpriced for what they are. I'm also afraid that the PV1 looks too cool - and my kids will gravitate towards it. The SVS sub just looks like a wooden box.
4. Receivers vs. Components. I didn't get a chance to listen to the 1067 because the dealer thought if I was going to pay that money, I might as well have gone to the separates. I'll make sure he demos the 1067 tomorrow. And I'll spend the next hour going thru the Rotel forum.
5. How many times do you demo before you buy? I think this will be my 5th demo - I wonder if they are getting annoyed!

Once again, thanks for everyone's help. I'm trying to buy everything on Saturday (its tax free weekend). So only 3 more days of waffling. Why am I getting nervous all of a sudden?

[Nolan B]

First off - thanks EVERYONE for all the input. I really appreciate it! My wife has been reading this thread and wants to thank those of you who are looking out for her interests too (and she likes your pictures).

1. I never heard the XT. We went to the dealer and it got nixed immediately (did not pass the WAF - especially since she fell in love with the rosenut finish on the 805, two seconds later). But after a heated debate over dinner - we are ready to reconsider them. So will head over the dealership tomorrow to demo and see IRL.
2. FPM - should I just do the FPM2s in the rear? Will that be sufficient? I'm not sure WHEN I will be able to buy the 804s after this HT purchase (our house will be the kids domain for at least the next 5-7 years). So I will be using these speakers for music and HT for the time being. The room is not huge, 22' X 15'. If I can get by with just the FPM2s, I would be saving a significant chunk of change that I can put elsewhere.
3. Woofers - my room spec is 22' x 15'. I think one PV1 will be sufficient. The Velo DD12 will break my budget. I can stretch to the Velo 10 though. But seems like everyone here thinks the PV1 will sound great. Vancouver - did you try pairing your system with the SVS subs. I heard they were more "bang of the buck" and the PV1 were overpriced for what they are. I'm also afraid that the PV1 looks too cool - and my kids will gravitate towards it. The SVS sub just looks like a wooden box.
4. Receivers vs. Components. I didn't get a chance to listen to the 1067 because the dealer thought if I was going to pay that money, I might as well have gone to the separates. I'll make sure he demos the 1067 tomorrow. And I'll spend the next hour going thru the Rotel forum.
5. How many times do you demo before you buy? I think this will be my 5th demo - I wonder if they are getting annoyed!

Once again, thanks for everyone's help. I'm trying to buy everything on Saturday (its tax free weekend). So only 3 more days of waffling. Why am I getting nervous all of a sudden?

Please take our adivce and get the seperates unless you need to save space and want a tuner. The price difference between a 1067 and 1068/1075 combo is only a couple of hunred maybe three and regardless of whether one thinks the sound quality is better, equal or not the ugrading factor is worth it especially with new formats around the corner.

If you are getting FPMs then yes stick with the FPM 2s for the surounds. They are the best choice in that set up. If you want to spend the extra buy FPM 4s.

Taking into account what you are thinking of getting I would personally go with FPM 5s or 4s all the way around and dont bother with the FPM 6 as a centre. Not sure if removing the 6 as a centre and spreading the money around the surounds works out the same but the difference between an FPM 4 5 or 6 is ALMOST non existant.

good luck and post pictures.

By the way are you pairing this with a plasma?

[RebelMan]

maxy, you need to be sure what purpose it is you are trying to fullfill. You stated that you wanted to build a dedicated HT system now and a dedicated 2CH system later. Now it seems you want a dual purpose system and that could have an impact on the equipment you are considering. What type of listening do you intend to do? Are you interested in task oriented background music? Do you have the occasion to listen to music casually or critically? You really need to know and understand what you want from your music to properly design a suitable system. We can be less forgiving of home theater based systems because they are primarily designed for reproducing dialog, and special effects. We are also visually stimulated and if its a good movie we will find ourselves caught up in the story. Thus, we are less concerned about sonic accuracy. If you want to spend your money wisely you need to be certain.

Assuming you are placing an emphasis on home theater entertainment, the FPMs are a good choice and they suit your WAF. In this case you will be better off with the FPM2s for the rear but you are not restricted to them. However, if you have more than a passing interest in music you need to consider something like the XT series or perhaps the 800 Series. The 600 Series are an cost effective option and I recommend them too but they may have a different esthetic appeal for you and your wife. The 700 Series is less accommodating to HT enthusiasts so I would have my reservations recommending them. In any case, the Velodyne DD-10 or B&W PV1 will meet your HT requirement but again I prefer the the later for its musical abilities and it will meet your spatial concerns.

If you decide to stick with the FPMs and want to stay within your budget the RSX-1057 will fit the bill. I strongly urge that you conduct your demos between the RSX-1057, RSX-1067 and RSP-1068 and RMB-1075 combo under a properly controlled environment. This means in the same room with the same speakers and level matched volumes. The separates do have a slightly lower noise floor but you may find yourself hard pressed to distinguish audible differences between them and the receivers. Given your interest is primarily in HT and your projected plans for the HD future it may not be a financially wise decision to invest in separates at this time.

I have spent dozens of hours demoing equipment that I have an interest in, so keep on going until you are satisfied with what you hear! :T

[WI Rotel]

Please take our adivce and get the seperates unless you need to save space and want a tuner. The price difference between a 1067 and 1068/1075 combo is only a couple of hunred maybe three and regardless of whether one thinks the sound quality is better, equal or not the ugrading factor is worth it especially with new formats around the corner.

If you are getting FPMs then yes stick with the FPM 2s for the surounds. They are the best choice in that set up. If you want to spend the extra buy FPM 4s.

Taking into account what you are thinking of getting I would personally go with FPM 5s or 4s all the way around and dont bother with the FPM 6 as a centre. Not sure if removing the 6 as a centre and spreading the money around the surounds works out the same but the difference between an FPM 4 5 or 6 is ALMOST non existant.


good luck and post pictures.

By the way are you pairing this with a plasma?

I'm with Vancouver.
If you Have FPM's already, go with the FPM's. Mixing series is not a good idea since each series tend to have their own particular sonic signature. If you are considering going whole hog replace then consider the XT's since they truly sound better but the whole arrangement will cost quite a penny. BTW a whole XT system costs less than a pair of of 802's (wonderful but outrageously priced)!

[Nolan B]

Assuming you are placing an emphasis on home theater entertainment, the FPMs are a good choice and they suit your WAF. In this case you will be better off with the FPM2s for the rear but you are not restricted to them. However, if you have more than a passing interest in music you need to consider something like the XT series or perhaps the 800 Series. The 600 Series are an cost effective option and I recommend them too but they may have a different esthetic appeal for you and your wife. The 700 Series is less accommodating to HT enthusiasts so I would have my reservations recommending them. In any case, the Velodyne DD-10 or B&W PV1 will meet your HT requirement but again I prefer the the later for its musical abilities and it will meet your spatial concerns.

:T

I will agree and dissagree. The 800 series is or course for the criticle ear. If you lik the 600 series for music then have a piece of mind that i upgraded from the 600 series to FPMs for asthetics and space and also found for quality. Worreid that I would take a step backwards in quality i did some research and found that according to B&W FPMs are considered slightly better then the 600 series.

I will agree its important to know what you want. Also know that we (people who post here and spend a good chunk of change on our systems) represent less then 1% of the total market in terms of numbers. What we consider entry level or "OK" most people feel its amazing.

My system is by no means for the very criticle ear, but my friends, family or anyone that has heard my systems comments on how good it is.

Post what you specifically want from your system and how you will use it and you may get a more unified opinion.

[akhter]

First off - thanks EVERYONE for all the input. I really appreciate it! My wife has been reading this thread and wants to thank those of you who are looking out for her interests too (and she likes your pictures).

1. I never heard the XT. We went to the dealer and it got nixed immediately (did not pass the WAF - especially since she fell in love with the rosenut finish on the 805, two seconds later). But after a heated debate over dinner - we are ready to reconsider them. So will head over the dealership tomorrow to demo and see IRL.
2. FPM - should I just do the FPM2s in the rear? Will that be sufficient? I'm not sure WHEN I will be able to buy the 804s after this HT purchase (our house will be the kids domain for at least the next 5-7 years). So I will be using these speakers for music and HT for the time being. The room is not huge, 22' X 15'. If I can get by with just the FPM2s, I would be saving a significant chunk of change that I can put elsewhere.
3. Woofers - my room spec is 22' x 15'. I think one PV1 will be sufficient. The Velo DD12 will break my budget. I can stretch to the Velo 10 though. But seems like everyone here thinks the PV1 will sound great. Vancouver - did you try pairing your system with the SVS subs. I heard they were more "bang of the buck" and the PV1 were overpriced for what they are. I'm also afraid that the PV1 looks too cool - and my kids will gravitate towards it. The SVS sub just looks like a wooden box.
4. Receivers vs. Components. I didn't get a chance to listen to the 1067 because the dealer thought if I was going to pay that money, I might as well have gone to the separates. I'll make sure he demos the 1067 tomorrow. And I'll spend the next hour going thru the Rotel forum.
5. How many times do you demo before you buy? I think this will be my 5th demo - I wonder if they are getting annoyed!

Once again, thanks for everyone's help. I'm trying to buy everything on Saturday (its tax free weekend). So only 3 more days of waffling. Why am I getting nervous all of a sudden?

Try to get the 805 then for mains

I have the XTC as center (N804 mains), and I listened to the FPM series, and thought the XT series was much cleaner sounding. I think the DD10 is a great sub (went with a DD12 myself). As much as I love B&W, I personally think the DD series is a cut above any B&W sub in features and value.

My 2 cents...

[maxy]

Heh Rebelman, you mean I can't have my cake and eat it too?
For the next couple of years (about 5) I will be needing this system to be both HT and Music. When the kids get older, this system will become only HT and I will build a new 2CH system. We listen to 50% jazz and classical, and 50% all other. We will use the system 60 HT and 40 for music.

Got off work early and demo'd XT2 vs. FPM5 and the 1067, 1057, and 1068/1075 (had some time leftover and for kicks and giggles went into BB to listen to Vienna, Martin Logans, Definitive).

First off, I liked the sound of XT2 slightly better than the FPM5. But it is a pretty damn close call! And when we placed the speakers flushed against the wall there was "significant" muffled/damped quality to the XT2 while the FPMS were not as incremental.

Speakers: XT2x4 + XTC vs. FPM5x3 + FPM2x2

Woofer
Still debating between PV1 and SVS

Receiver/Components
Either Denon or Rotel 1068/1075 OR 1067 or 1057 (its a freakin coin toss)

DVD
Oppo 971H

TV
Panasonic 8UK (50inch)

Questions:
1. I'm looking into the SVS subs. Any thoughts over the VV. Will be talking to customer service manana. The PV1 driver is metal = toddler proof. Though my son thought it was a ball and tried to roll it around - it was definitely not going anywhere and he hit the driver a couple of times, pretty hard...good thing it was metal.
2. XT2 also come in black on black (instead of the silver and black). This is a new development, which helped WAF. Has anyone seen pictures of 4 XT2 setup? Would love to see it. Wonder if these shorter speakers look odd next to a plasma. Would also love to see what these look like in black, but couldn't find a picture. We measured it and it is 4 inches deeper than the FPMs. Also the XT2 system is only $50 less than the FPM system.
3. On the receiver front - I am not sure what I'm going to do. Listened to the differences between the three for over an hour. 1057 are suffiicent to drive the XT but 1067 clearly sounded better. And the 1068/1075 were even better. The question is what is most practical. The dealership just do not have any other brands to demo except Rotel and NAD. So I will have to buy a Denon 4306 somewhere else and try it out at home. I think my problem is there is not a perfect solution with either of the alternatives. Although someone did mention that RSP-1057 is adequate for now and wait to buy separates after the high-definition format wars have settled and when I get the 804's. I think this sounds wise. I am just trying to figure out what is the smarter use of $$.
5. I tried one last ditch effort to pitch the 805 (and the 804s) but my son was able to easily rock both of them (you should have seen the dealers face! Of course this was a controlled experiment, guess I just have let him know first!)
Is it really 2:00am? I need to sleep. Hope I made some sense.
Thanks for everyone's input. I will post pictures when done. I maybe the only person to have a 4 black XT2 setup.

[Nolan B]

First off, I liked the sound of XT2 slightly better than the FPM5. But it is a pretty damn close call! And when we placed the speakers flushed against the wall there was "significant" muffled/damped quality to the XT2 while the FPMS were not as incremental.

The FPM case is specifically designed to sound well when right against a wall which is why you noticed it not get muffled/damped as much. What size of a room did you do the demo in? Is it similar sized to the room you will be putting the speakers in?

Also I am not an expert and maybe somone else can chime in, but just because the PV1 driver is metal doesnt mean damage wont happen when pushing the driver in...but I couol be wrong.

You mentioned you dealer has Viennas. Does he have the Wall mounting speakers in his store? If so check out the sub that goes with that system..the divers are totally protected with the grill and when I did a demo it was against the PV1 and felt that they were very similar.

[WI Rotel]

The FPM case is specifically designed to sound well when right against a wall which is why you noticed it not get muffled/damped as much. What size of a room did you do the demo in? Is it similar sized to the room you will be putting the speakers in?

Also I am not an expert and maybe somone else can chime in, but just because the PV1 driver is metal doesnt mean damage wont happen when pushing the driver in...but I couol be wrong.

You mentioned you dealer has Viennas. Does he have the Wall mounting speakers in his store? If so check out the sub that goes with that system..the divers are totally protected with the grill and when I did a demo it was against the PV1 and felt that they were very similar.

The PV1 cone is mica covered by aluminium, although sturdy it definitely not indestructible. The suspension is plastic, of course. I wouldnt count the materials to be child proof. I've had 3 kids and have never had them damage anything. Even little monster types can be easily trained to stay away from "stuff" by the 2 warning rule, first one is spoken, second leads to a bright red butt :B