B&W dealer charging for delivery

[nkb]

I purchased 2x802D's, 1xHTM2D, 1xASW825 from my closest B&W authorized dealer (45 min drive).

These have now arrived at the dealer along with a raft of other high-end A/V stuff. Total bill ~$50K.

Granted that I bargained hard and got a good discount but dealer says come pick up the stuff or it can be delivered for $175/hr.

These are heavy items as most of you know. I figure the dealer will charge me a minimum of 4 hours time ($700 or more) for delivery. Remember, no installation, just bring it to my house (45 min drive).

My question is, am I naive, for expecting that this would be delivered as part of my original purchase and not have to pay extra(at $175/hr)? Apparently, I should have negotiated this as part of the deal. Obviously the dealer feels nothing is included except the equipment itself. Anything else is T&M at $175/hour.

Is this the normal experience? Or, is this payback for my hard bargain? I also declined the installation service($175/hr) and expensive cables, preferring to handle this part myself.

This is a "high-end" dealer that not only handles B&W but many of the major high end A/V brands. Not Best Buy or Costco. I think they are just accustomed to customers with unlimited budgets and money to burn.

[Nolan B]

I purchased 2x802D's, 1xHTM2D, 1xASW825 from my closest B&W authorized dealer (45 min drive).

These have now arrived at the dealer along with a raft of other high-end A/V stuff. Total bill ~$50K.

Granted that I bargained hard and got a good discount but dealer says come pick up the stuff or it can be delivered for $175/hr.

These are heavy items as most of you know. I figure the dealer will charge me a minimum of 4 hours time ($700 or more) for delivery. Remember, no installation, just bring it to my house (45 min drive).

My question is, am I naive, for expecting that this would be delivered as part of my original purchase and not have to pay extra(at $175/hr)? Apparently, I should have negotiated this as part of the deal. Obviously the dealer feels nothing is included except the equipment itself. Anything else is T&M at $175/hour.

Is this the normal experience? Or, is this payback for my hard bargain? I also declined the installation service($175/hr) and expensive cables, preferring to handle this part myself.

This is a "high-end" dealer that not only handles B&W but many of the major high end A/V brands. Not Best Buy or Costco. I think they are just accustomed to customers with unlimited budgets and money to burn.

They should charge you delivery by all rights, but in my personal opinion $175 is stiff. Most insured movers are about $100/hour.

Either way I wouldnt attempt to move them myself, becuase the move is the only time something will go wrong with your speakers.

[RNKC]

IMHO, a 45 min drive is nothing. For $50K that dealer should be falling over himself to deliver and setup as part of the deal.

My Dad bought his setup from a dealer who was just over 1h away from where he lives. The dealer did say he couldn't come during the week, but would come on a Saturday which was fair enough. True to his word, he was there on that Saturday more or less exactly at the time he said he would be. He carried everything downstairs, set it up and made sure Dad was happy.

In a similar vein, Dad bought his car from a dealer who is 1.25h away. When it comes time for servicing, they send a guy up to Dad who drives the car down, then drives it back when the servicing is done. So it is no unique for B&W dealer to deliver - even the car guy does it.

If it were me, I would cancel the order and get it from someone else. Just think - what's going to happen if you have any troubles with your setup? This dealer has already demonstrated that he's not going to be there for you.

[Race Car Driver]

In my opinion, they should deliver it at no charge if you spent that much, IF it was worked in the orignal deal.

I dunno, $175 an hr seems steep to me, but with a 50k investement is another $700 really that big of a deal to not have to worry about it?

If it really bothers you tell them you changed your mind on the equipment and you decided to go else where and see what they say.

I know for 50k, if I were a biz owner, i would GLADLY take 4-6 hrs out of my day to make sure I have a customer for life.

And as a note, home audio usually has 50% margin, so even if they gave you a decent discount, they still should have made quite a bit off the sale. Although cables/accys is where the HUGE markeup is...

[photoman]

nkb,

I didn't spend as much as that, but close. Anyway, my dealer also wanted to charge me for delivery (no setup only delivery) something like 200.00 for all the speakers, 50" plasma and electronics. Now $200 wasn't bad, but hey that buy me more music and a dinner and a (you get the point). $700, I'd rent a uHaul before I pay that.

I pulled out my F350 and trailer and picked it up my self. If your in NJ send me a PM and I'll see if I can help you out. I've got a big truck and a trailer to a haul it in.

[Glen B]

Although you spent $50K, you don't know what the dealer's overhead is like, especially with current gas prices (worst in the Northeast). The dealer has to pay for a 90-minute round trip plus the time it takes to load/unload your goods. You're looking at roughly two hours of time for a minimum of two men who are on the clock. I don't think it is unreasonable to have to pay something for delivery although $175/hr is steep. That said, If I were the dealer, as a show of good will I would have eaten the delivery charge on a $50K sale. Just my $.02.

[RobP]

I could see a small delivery fee that was reasonable for both parties, but if it is going to cost you $700 in the end for delivery, I would go back to the bargaining table and make your case. I don't think they would want to lose a $50k sale over $700.

[zorg]

tell him you will cancel the order and go somewhere else if he doesn't include free delivery, it's ridiculous with the amount of money you are spending... imho.

[Lex]

for close to 50K, not only should delivery be free, he should PERSONALLY come out and oversee the operation, at least setup, and bring you a nice bottle of wine for your first evening of listening. That's customer service-

[kurtholz]

are you gonna hook it all up yourself, i spent more than that, i bet i am easy $3000 into set-up programming etc, they spent 4 hours tuning my plasma at $85 an hour,best money i ever spent

lugging 175 lb speakers up my stairs wasnt gonna happen, you should buy them a bottle of wine and sacrifice a few cubano's at the same time, plus tip

i would most assuradly pony up for basic setup, but again, that's me,

at least you would know it works, set back, watch the fun, then enjoy the music,next week, go make more money

good luck

great system, it will rock

Kurt

[george_k]

My buddy purchased a pair of 604's and an LCR600 from a dealer that is roughly 20 minutes away from his house, they delivered free of charge. Considering what you bought costs more than 10x what he did and you just a bit further I think you should be getting better service.

Like Lex and everybody else said, at $50,000 he should be kissing your feet

[Andrew M Ward]

for close to 50K, not only should delivery be free, he should PERSONALLY come out and oversee the operation, at least setup, and bring you a nice bottle of wine for your first evening of listening. That's customer service-

Fascinating observation... Wine and Cheese for a brow beater?

The customer admits to beating the dealer up over sales price and getting the deal he wanted yet balks at delivery cost... I think we're missing the whole story (as usual) there are always two sides..

I love this business :lol:

[Gump]

Buying a system of that stature should be a fun and exciting experience, it's too bad the delivery charge is throwing a sour note in the situation for you.
If it's bothering you enough to post this thread then it's probably going to eat at you unless you address it with your salesman.

Just be direct and tell him you were surprised that the delivery wasn't written off due to the amount of the sale. Maybe he'll at least knock a few dollars off it, and if not he'll probably give you an explanation why he won't.

Then you can put it behind you and concentrate on what's most important....enjoying your new system!

[RebelMan]

I am not aware of any business that throws delivery in for free unless it is part of a promotion or the destination is within a small radius of travel. However, I do think the the amount that the dealer wants to charge you is a little steep. If it were me I would try and renegotiate the delivery fee or make arrangements to pick the equipment up myself.

If the topic didn't come up at the bargining table to begin with then it stands to reason that the dealer would expect the customer to pick up their purchase. I doubt the dealer is trying to take advantage of the situation. I think some assumptions were made by both parties.

[dknightd]

If you didn't pay for the install, I wouldn't expect the dealer to deliver.

[dyazdani]

It would have been a nice gesture to deliver it for free, especially considering the amount you spent.

A fair alternative would probably be a fuel surcharge, say $0.50/mile and offer to cover the delivery people's wages. They are certainly not making $175/hr, but you could cover their cost - I don't know where you live, but say $25/hr to be kind.

That should come to about $50 for the fuel and $150 or so for the time. Not a bad compromise.

[george_k]

The customer admits to beating the dealer up over sales price and geting the deal he wanted yet balks at delivery cost... I think we're missing the whole story (as usual) there are always two sides..

But the margins on the speakers are ridiculous added to the fact that there are only a select number of B&W dealers in any given are, I still think the dealer made a hefty profit.

Most dealers here in montreal will knock off 15% of the price with very little fuss if any. My dealer knocked 20% off a pair of 603's completely on his own, I just asked for his best price and he gave me a 20% discount, I would have been happy with 15%. I'd imagine his till did well on the sale.

[LikeCoiledSteel]

Hi NKB,
At this point I would just cancel the order altogether. It is not about the money but the Principle. Like RNKC said, where will this dealer be if you have a problem? They will charge you for every little thing. For 50k, they shouls throw in delivery, setup and free pickup for any warranty issues. My B&W towers have had to be taken back twice to my dealer. Mine are small and managable. You will need assistance with your if you have a problem.

Cancel the order. The dealer may then retract and deliver for free, but that is not the point. He has already shown his true worth. Worthless.
There are plenty of dealers out there wanting your business. Office Depot delivers anything we want to our office for a $50 order. Where is the customer service?
Steel

[Andrew M Ward]

Buying a system of that stature should be a fun and exciting experience, it's too bad the delivery charge is throwing a sour note in the situation for you.
If it's bothering you enough to post this thread then it's probably going to eat at you unless you address it with your salesman.

Just be direct and tell him you were surprised that the delivery wasn't written off due to the amount of the sale. Maybe he'll at least knock a few dollars off it, and if not he'll probably give you an explanation why he won't.

Then you can put it behind you and concentrate on what's most important....enjoying your new system!

Well said Gump
I agree, this whole thing should be fun... and letting things fester (if you will forgive the term) is troublesom

[Andrew M Ward]

Hi NKB,
At this point I would just cancel the order altogether. It is not about the money but the Principle. Like RNKC said, where will this dealer be if you have a problem? They will charge you for every little thing. For 50k, they shouls throw in delivery, setup and free pickup for any warranty issues. My B&W towers have had to be taken back twice to my dealer. Mine are small and managable. You will need assistance with your if you have a problem.

Cancel the order. The dealer may then retract and deliver for free, but that is not the point. He has already shown his true worth. Worthless.
There are plenty of dealers out there wanting your business. Office Depot delivers anything we want to our office for a $50 order. Where is the customer service?
Steel

You, my freind are an angry & silly silly man...
Maybe he should hire Office Depot to deliver the speakers! (sorry :W )

I would guess that the dealer is not "worthless"
I would guess that the sales price of the speakers was below retail
I would guess that the other items were also reduced

(these are just a few presumptions)

The dealer will have two service guys delivering the product, probably not highschool kids (like office depot) but actual technicians who have some skills and will set up the surround system as well....

it costs money to run a business and have qualified employees...

I would check the dealers service policy (for sure) but my goodness let's not over-react here - it's my job to over-react and say stupid stuff, and I'm not surrendering my crown without a fight!!

[UCLAman]

I can't believe those people who suggest that some fee (even gas) for delivery be paid for. For the amount spent, delivery and setup SHOULD be included. The dealer you are working with is completely out of his mind. As many have already said - this dealer is not working towards your future purchases - he is looking for a quick sale and buck! A dealer that wants your present and future business will go out of his way for the consumer!

Perhaps because I live in Los Angeles there is a lot of competition and this is one of the reasons so many dealers would deliver for free. Sure I have talk to some dealers not willing to accomidate my needs. I just hang up and call another dealer. Fortunately I have a high end dealer that always works with me.

[Boone38]

I would have to agree with those that state the new equipment should be set up and delivered for free. My take is that these costs should have been built into his prices. I worked in retail and the audio industry for some time and a 50k system is not the everyday sale.

I am sure the dealer had to discount the items, but there has to be a profit built into the sale. Another reason to complete this, is that a person buying a system this large will have friends over that can usually buy the same, or a larger set up. The customer service would and should be very high. Most high end dealers relay very heavy on word of mouth.

However, I must think that we are not getting all the info on this.

[kurtholz]

Is Andrew the only one who read the first post, well, and me,

you brag about beating him up on the price, big deal if you paid $50k for $60k(guessing) worth of hi-fi, and why would you not pay an expert to hook it up

you gonna negotiate with the ambulance driver as he is giving you CPR after you fall over from the frustration of not setting it up right and tweaking it perfect?

$175 an hour for 2 presumably skilled experts is about right, you spend $50k just for the equipment, and you cry if you spend 5% or less to hook it up right

better run down to Lowes, i hear they have a sale on lamp chords, should make some nice speaker cables for you

( i am being sarcastic of course), trying to compete with Andrew, :-)

get it done right, and hope they don't spend 20 hours putting it together, which is highly likely, my wife and i spent over 2 hours just moving my 802d's around until we got it just right, i would have gladly paid $350 to come home and have it already done

and really, $50k isnt that big of a sale, probably doesnt even cover rent for a month

i aways shake my head, when i hear grumblings about how bad it is for someone to make a profit

i run several business's, i make a lot more than the industry standards in all area's, and i deliver significantly better work to,everyone win's

good luck with setup, but if you don't do it everyday, your $50k is gonna sound like $50

regards

Kurt

[photoman]

good luck with setup, but if you don't do it everyday, your $50k is gonna sound like $50
Kurt

Get real we're talking stereo junk here not designing DSP chips. Please, a couple of hours setup at best. Let me guess your a salesmen right, figures.

[Race Car Driver]

and really, $50k isnt that big of a sale

regards

Kurt

8O



:rofl:


Wow, I guess i must be a reall poor ass for not being able to afford even half that then.

[photoman]

8O



:rofl:


Wow, I guess i must be a reall poor ass for not being able to afford even half that then.

Yeah me too.

[JKalman]

I purchased 2x802D's, 1xHTM2D, 1xASW825 from my closest B&W authorized dealer (45 min drive).

These have now arrived at the dealer along with a raft of other high-end A/V stuff. Total bill ~$50K.

Granted that I bargained hard and got a good discount but dealer says come pick up the stuff or it can be delivered for $175/hr.

These are heavy items as most of you know. I figure the dealer will charge me a minimum of 4 hours time ($700 or more) for delivery. Remember, no installation, just bring it to my house (45 min drive).

My question is, am I naive, for expecting that this would be delivered as part of my original purchase and not have to pay extra(at $175/hr)? Apparently, I should have negotiated this as part of the deal. Obviously the dealer feels nothing is included except the equipment itself. Anything else is T&M at $175/hour.

Is this the normal experience? Or, is this payback for my hard bargain? I also declined the installation service($175/hr) and expensive cables, preferring to handle this part myself.

This is a "high-end" dealer that not only handles B&W but many of the major high end A/V brands. Not Best Buy or Costco. I think they are just accustomed to customers with unlimited budgets and money to burn.

I bought 802Ds and traded in a 7 (703s, 705s, etc) series surround system as part of the deal. I wasn't charged for delivery. They even took them out of the packaging for me before they left. I live only 20-25 minutes away from their warehouse though.

[JKalman]

If it were me, I would cancel the order and get it from someone else. Just think - what's going to happen if you have any troubles with your setup? This dealer has already demonstrated that he's not going to be there for you.

I think this is advice you should be paying attention to... You may be dealing with this dealer a lot in the future.

[JKalman]

I bought 802Ds and traded in a 7 (703s, 705s, etc) series surround system as part of the deal. I wasn't charged for delivery. They even took them out of the packaging for me before they left. I live only 20-25 minutes away from their warehouse though.

Oh, and they picked up my 7 series system for free also, at the same time.

They do say that they charge $100 an hour. I bought only around $25k worth (My Bryston Surround Processor and Amp, and 802Ds) of equipment from them. When I thought I had a problem with my 7 series system, they came over and we listened to some of the albums where I thought I was finding problems (all turning out to be issues with the quality of the recordings!), and despite my insisting they charge me and making them say they would charge me (they said they would send me a bill), they never billed me for their time as they said they would. Now that is service.

They gave me a percentage discount on all my original gear (a nice bit more than tax rate), but didn't give me a discount on the 802Ds as part of the deal for the trade-in since they gave me full return on my initial 7 series purchases towards the 802Ds, which seemed worth it to me since I didn't want to be stuck with the 7 series setup.

I will buy my 800Ds or surround 802Ds from them when I save up enough money and decide which ones I will go with for my HT setup...

[Dmantis]

You could always go get them yourself. But paying for the delivery is smart in my opnion. As said, if something goes wrong, it's on them, not you. Dude they are very heavy speakers and no fun to carry around. I know as I have carried them many times.
They should give you a set price for the delivery. I don't agree with per hour charges for that. If they where coming over to set them up and tune them to your room, thats another story but just to bring them out, they should beable to give a solid price.

Dan

[Grasynoll]

The 1st post states that it is a delivery charge, not an installation charge. He should have thrown in delivery. My God, it's not like the dealer is living with a 10% markup.

[RobP]

So NKB, any update on the purchase?

[Audiophiliac]

I would agree that $700 is too much for them to simply drop the stuff off. For a 45 minute drive and 2 guys, we would probably charge between $0 and $250 to deliver.

And yes, it should have been part of the sales process, not sprung on you unexpectedly. That is tacky for the dealer to do. I am sure he just wants to try and recoup some of the margin lost in the discounts.

I think you should just politely ask them to reduce the delivery charge or simply go pick the stuff up yourself. I dont see why that isnt an option.

To me, anyone who can afford to drop $50k or more on a system, should be able to afford a reasonable delivery fee without bitching about it...regardless if they were given a moderate discount or not. But it should definitely be negotiated during the sales process. And $700 is ridiculous.

Hopefully you plan to at least tip the guys.

[nkb]

Dealer comes through

Without me doing any further complaining, the dealer is now delivering everything for a flat $100.

His delivery guys (also apparently technicians), after unloading, will then stay at my request and do whatever I want from them, if anything, at $175/hour.

All in all, very fair, and a positive resolution.

I expect to be doing further business with the dealer (finishing whole house audio/automation) so it is good that we are solid footing again.

[dknightd]

Glad to hear it worked out. Sounds like a reasonable resolution.

[Ade]

Glad to hear it worked out. Sounds like a reasonable resolution.

To be honest I wouldn't be satisfied...

Yesterday I was at my B&W dealer which is coincidentally also 45min drive away. They basically have a monopoly on B&W kit here in Norway or at least as good as. On a purchase that would be 20% of nkb's they'd deliver for free and I didn't even have to haggle it was a, "of course we deliver for free on purchases of this amount" situation.

And this is Norway where gas prices make US prices look silly cheap and that also can be said for staffing costs too.

Seriously, if I were in nkb's situation where there is a lot of dealer competition I would have cancelled and gone elsewhere just out of principle.

Come on, yes, a dealer has the right to charge for delivery but a $700 or even a $100 delivery charge on a 50K sale is just silly in terms of customer service.

[Andrew M Ward]

Aaahhhh... I do love a happy ending, these Romantic Thrillers can get complicated.

[wkhanna]

I’m already looking forward to the sequel. I wonder how this system will sound in the home as compared to the showroom.

[JKalman]

Without me doing any further complaining, the dealer is now delivering everything for a flat $100.

His delivery guys (also apparently technicians), after unloading, will then stay at my request and do whatever I want from them, if anything, at $175/hour.

All in all, very fair, and a positive resolution.

Very fair for him. I'm glad my dealers aren't like that... :P

[Audiophiliac]

Nobody got screwed here. Its perfectly common for someone to want to make a profit in a business. Had the delivery fee been involved in the initial sales discussions, it would have been negotiated like all the other products. The fact that it was seemingly sprung on the customer after the fact is the only real issue here. Had it not been, the post may have never been made.

[Andrew M Ward]

Nobody got screwed here. Its perfectly common for someone to want to make a profit in a business. Had the delivery fee been involved in the initial sales discussions, it would have been negotiated like all the other products. The fact that it was seemingly sprung on the customer after the fact is the only real issue here. Had it not been, the post may have never been made.

Oh sure!
Come waltzing in as the level headed voice of reason (with words of calm and brilliance) after the fact...

Actually I completely agree, I just wish I had said it first …. (Here’s where I call you a bastard and get kicked off the forum)

Gosh I love this medium …

[JKalman]

To be honest I wouldn't be satisfied...

Yesterday I was at my B&W dealer which is coincidentally also 45min drive away. They basically have a monopoly on B&W kit here in Norway or at least as good as. On a purchase that would be 20% of nkb's they'd deliver for free and I didn't even have to haggle it was a, "of course we deliver for free on purchases of this amount" situation.

And this is Norway where gas prices make US prices look silly cheap and that also can be said for staffing costs too.

Seriously, if I were in nkb's situation where there is a lot of dealer competition I would have cancelled and gone elsewhere just out of principle.

Come on, yes, a dealer has the right to charge for delivery but a $700 or even a $100 delivery charge on a 50K sale is just silly in terms of customer service.

Considering the service I have gotten for spending a lot less, I agree with you, I wouldn't be satisfied either. Like I said, I'm glad I have better dealers in my area. Dealers already make a large enough profit margin on high-end gear as it is... Perhaps the guy owes the Mob money or something. :lol:

[nkb]

A few comments

1. Those that said being charged $100 for delivery on a $50K sale as being silly are probably right. It probably will internally cost the dealer at least that much in paperwork and bureaucracy to bill me for this. I also run a corporate business(part of a publicly traded company), and I wouldn't have bothered with the $100 token charge for a large customer. But, this is a corporate dealer that does a lot of commercial work - and they charge for everything, and typically at top dollar. For example, they billed me $1000 for a "rebid" when I modified the equipment list for my whole house audio/automation (I didn't pay and they retracted the charge). Note that I had already spent substantial sums with this dealer/installer on whole house structured wiring, controls, and in-wall/in-ceiling speakers (B&W).

2. The $100 delivery charge, while petty, is well worth it to me personally as picking this up myself would be a real pain. We're talking about more equipment than would fit in one trip in my full size pickup truck not to mention how heavy these items are.

3. Some spoke about cancelling my order and going to the competition. Believe it or not, most(if not all) B&W dealers in Northern California will not deal with you if you are not "in their immediate area". They point you back to your closest dealer. This makes it very hard (if not impossible) to do any shopping on price. B&W dealers say that they will lose their franchise if they sell out of their "area". Frankly, this sounded to me like "collusion" and "price fixing". The other dealers, while saying they would not sell to me, also said that they NEVER sell below list price anyway because of the "special" nature of these items. Nevertheless, I was able to finally negotiate a discount on my package deal(including non-B&W items) with my local dealer.

At this point, like I said, I am satisfied that I will receive my package delivered to my house for a nominal charge. After delivery, I am more than happy to take over the process of installation. I am technically inclined and educated and prefer to do this my self. This is a hobby for me and I like to tinker and do things myself as much as I can. In the end, this will probably take me more time than for a dealer install but, important for me, I will exactly understand what I have and be able to fine tune, add, and subtract from the system without having to rely on the dealer. (I also fix my old cars myself).

The rest of my project (whole house audio, automation) is definitely not DIY as it involves Crestron. With Crestron you have no choice but to rely on the dealer/installer. As the end user, you cannot get access to information/programming, regardless of your level of expertise, training, or desire to do things yourself. I am locked into Crestron as much of this is already installed, so will finish this out with the dealer, but I would have preferred at least access to the programming/installation info. I don't want to have to run back to the dealer every time I want something modified.

Finally, I do not begrudge the dealer his profit. Trust me, they have had me as a very good (and substantial) customer and have clearly made an excellent profit a long the way. But, they also have been very competent and professional. Certainly not the cheapest but I could trust that they would do the job right. Except for a few mis-steps (the initial high delivery charge, the $1000 rebid charge. etc.) which I called them on (and they fixed) I have been happy in dealing with them.

[Cactus]

And as a note, home audio usually has 50% margin

Wrong! And if any video was involved, even worse.

[misterdoggy]

Well Just my 2 cents.

I think that at the time you bought the 50K$ worth of goods the dealer should have made you aware of:

1. All costs involved
a. delivery costs
b. setup complications and costs
c. delivery potential problems (like the weight)

Having a surprise in any deal like this is never any fun. Is the dealer making back some negociated $$ with a high delivery installation cost.

Wouldn't any experienced HiFi professional make you aware of all the costs at the time of negotiations ?

I just bought 3 Mark Levinson pieces for $25k and I negotiated hard for almost 40% off, bought when the deal was done the dealer acted like a gentleman and even though it wasn't even discussed, he sent the 3 pieces "shipping on him". !!

$50k is a good customer and I think you should make him aware of that. Number like that help anyone's cash flow and delivery is a critical part of 802D's as they are heavy and there is a technique to taking them out of the boxes and if you damage them because someone was cutting corners, you will feel foolish.

Not to mention you'll get a hernia with how much they weigh.

Try to save your relationship with someone who you've been able to get good pricing, but let him know that he should have made you aware of all the charges beforehand.

Nobody who has 50K$ in Stereo is really expected to show up and collect his speakers. People who spend $50k get delivery. My 2 cents.