B&W 802D Boomy Bass - Not Happy!

[RebelMan]

Rebelman: the size of the room does matter because it affects how and where one can place speakers.

True, all else being equal. However, given an ideal room, like one that conforms to the "Golden Ratio" such as 14'W x 19'L x 10'H, consisting nothing more than wallboard, hardwood floors and a scattering of large windows, would sound awful compared to a square room (12'W x 12'W x 8'H) that was measured for acoustical anomolies and treated accordingly.

I need'nt tell you that most listening rooms are not ideal. In fact many Europeans have successfully contended with small room issues and unusal layouts. It might surprise you to know that the Japanese have also been very creative in their attempts to maximize speaker performance in the smallest of rooms.

I have had the luxury of attending large venues such as church cathedrals that had some of the worst acoustics I have ever heard. On the other hand, I have also been invited to hear state-of-the-art sound systems (using large floor standers) in rooms no larger than 11'W x 16'L x 8'H that sounded incredible.

How a room responds is far more important than its size.

[DavidB]

I take delivery of my 802D's next month. Room is 23' x 15' with 11' ceilings sounds fairly close to the "Golden Ratio"!

[rolski]

Model frequencie I have no idea where to stat, I downloaded the free one suggested by ROLSKI thank, but I'm a bit ignorant when it come to things like this is this the simplest way?

bass007,
Firstly, use the "rechenservice" link & tap in your room dimensions, seating position, speaker position etc - this will then show peaks & therefore tell you roughly where not to place the speakers - or where not to have your listening position. You can "drag & drop" the speakers & see how it affects the room modes - a really simple & effective tool.

Then, after that, if you decide you want to buy a room-correction gizmo such as a Behringer, you can use the Wizard - it's a pretty comprehensive tool & can give you very detailed feedback on the full-range frequency response of your room. All depends how deeply you want to get into this !

Good luck - but don't give up - my speakers sound good in my room without correction or treatment - but superb with....

[hillen]

There is ONE way to solve your roomproblem. Please read this ( from Tact audio ).
Roomcorrection is the way to go:

The Importance of Full Spectrum Correction in the Time Domain

With current technology it is possible to design speaker systems to perform almost flawlessly under anechoic conditions. However, when you place a perfect speaker in an ordinary living room, the sound changes very dramatically. This is primarily due to standing waves, cancellations, and reflections. All of the room/speaker interface problems are time related. The direct (first) arrival of sound from the speaker is largely undisturbed by the room, but after the first arrival the sound propagates in the room in a very complex pattern. The greatest amount of energy is present at the lowest frequencies where most speakers radiate sound in a circular pattern - hence only a tiny fraction of the low frequency energy produced will arrive directly at the listening position. The room will usually change the frequency response from near perfect to something that is almost completely random - particularly at the lower frequencies. Deviation of more than +/- 10 dB is the norm rather that the exception. This response error is usually 100 - 1000 times greater than the combination of all other frequency response errors in the reproduction chain.

As if this is not bad enough, time behavior is even more compromised. Every room resonance occurs as a build-up of energy over time. In general, lower frequency resonances take longer to build up and longer to decay, generating a delay that can average close to one second compared to the higher frequencies. This explains why big speaker systems capable of low frequency reproduction often have a reputation for being slow. In reality, they are just more likely to excite lower frequency room resonances resulting in greater average delay of the resonances. The total energy of the resonances in a normal room can be significantly higher than the sound produced directly by the speakers. And in most cases, the resonances are much more powerful than the direct sound if you measure them just after a transient. The effects of the room problems are aggravated by the spectral complexity of musical instruments and voices: Almost every musical instrument is very broadband, meaning that even when a single note is played, the instrument is producing a wide range of upper and lower harmonics. An example: The cymbal - most would think of it as producing high frequencies only, but this is far from true. In fact, the frequency response extends from below 16 Hz and all the way up to ultrasonic frequencies. The low frequency output comes from the fundamental resonance of the suspension. This low frequency information is usually inaudible, because it is masked by the room problems which introduce not only frequency response errors but also a delay to the lower frequencies due to the resonances of the room. With the RCS, the information is accurately reproduced making the sound much more real and believable. (Unfortunately, many studios remove the low frequencies when recording cymbals because they are ignorant of their importance for the fidelity).

The TacT room correction system goes straight to the root of the problems. During the calibration process a number of impulses are sent to the speakers. The calibrated microphone picks up the impulses at the listening position. Based on the deformation of the pulse both fthe requency domain and the time domain response can be accurately determined. The actual frequency response is compared to the desired frequency response defined by the user, and the system calculates an extremely complex inverse filter for each speaker which will give the desired frequency response with the best possible time behavior. The filter is itself an impulse (in the time domain) which corrects both the time and frequency domain behavior of the speaker - room combination. As the correction takes place in the time domain, the level is the same before and after the impulse with no sacrifice of dynamic range. All processing is done with 48 bit word-length so that no noise or distortion is generated by the system. The system measures and calibrates the left and right main speakers and one or two subwoofers, so any difference between the left and right channels is also compensated.

[bass007]

hillen, thank you very much for that, I've just made a few enquiries and the distributor in London (UK) no longer deals with TACT, and apparently there isn't a new one for the moment, sounds interesting, depending on cost, has anyone used one of these?

Thanks to everybody else who made some excellent suggestions, I tried a concrete slab, 45mm thick and it didn't make the slightest bit of difference to the bass. I know its the room reacting badly to standing waves. I pulled just one speaker, tried different listening distance, toe-in, but nothing seems to make a difference.

I have come to point where I have now put them up for sale, NO MORE SPEAKERS WITHOUT A HOME DEMO!! from now on.

Not sure what I'll do where I sell them, maybe a 805S and classe mono-clocks and a new Wadia 781.

Anyway if anyones interested in the UK the speakers are for sale, less than a month old, hardly run in, all boxes etc... immaculate condition.

[SRT-10 Viper]

bass007, Before you sell, you might want to try a system like a Meridian G68 or the higer end 861 multi channel preamp. I use the G68 for both 2 Ch and HT. The Meridian does bass management in both 2 CH and HT and has room correction. I was having a problem with boominess with my 800Ds in my room and this system cleaned it up. It even sounded better in 2Ch than my Classe 500 2Ch system so I sold it. Try it.. I'll bet you can fix your problem and have a great sounding 2CH / HT system.

[hillen]

Oh yeah, TACT is still available: look at

http://www.tactaudio.com/

I use the Tact RCS myself with my 802Ds, and they sound awesome in that way. Read HiFi News and RR review or the Stereophile review of the Tact RCS:. Bottom line of the reviews": Once you've heard the roomcorrection, listening without RCS is NO option anymore.

[bass007]

Hi, to be honest I don't really want to speand more $$££, and I don't want to comprimise my stereo system with AV, I have heard good things about the G68, Thank you for your suggestion.

I pumped a load of cash into my Stereo system latley and nothing but disapointment, I kinda lost the enthusiasm if you know what I mean.

Just out curiosity how much is the G68?

[bass007]

hillen, Just spoke to guy at Lyfondorf and he siad they longer to TACT? I am a bit confused.. are you in the UK?

SRT-10 Viper, just found out hoe much the Meridian G68 cost from £4000, that way too much for me to consider at this stage, thanks anyway.

Is £6700 (UK) a fair price to ask for the 802D condering its only less than 4 weeks old?

[Stevebez]

Hi there - yes the dreaded (or in some cases welcome) bass room gain.

In short in my experience you cannot get rid of it unless you employ bass traps. Given your room size this may not be ideal, as traps are often quite bulky. The other suggestions mentioned here will all help, but they will be at the margin. Carpet floor over wood is not going to help at all .. I think granite bass ight help slightly but these 802's are so heavy as it is ... is the speaker spiked onto the wood ? If not try it. Also try moving furniture about - changes room signature - sometimes sigificantly.

Get rid of your carpet!!! Having a carpet will absorb highs making the lows feel heavier. Plasterboard walls are a killer ... they resonate terribly too ... not much you can do there except again try some bass traps.

Get a sub that can do some room eq. Cross the 802D's at lest say 60hz and then equilize the room using the sub software - Velodyne DD series allows this as well as the new B&W I believe. Not Ideal but you will be able to clean things up ... but remember each calibration will need to be for a particualr listening point.

I have similar issue with 803D's but it works out quite well - gives good bass boost - but not boomy.

I still would like a dedicated theatre room with the proper dimensions to avoid this issue. I would have thought a room that represents an amphitheater shape would be best though, whats this about "golden room" dimension ratios !!!??"

Rgds Steve.

[bass007]

Hi Stevebez,

I tried spkiing, moving re-arrange I even put them in the middle of the room just to see what happens!! Its a disaster!! depressing!! EXPENSIVE mistake, word to anyone HOME DEMOS!!

[Recruit]

I used to own the G68 and tbh it would be a perfect match with the 802D's and with the EQ facility it would sort out you're low frequency problems the best option would be the G68J which is £3650 and is an audio only processor so no video switching built in, it is a very good preamp to boot...

[bass007]

hi Recruit,

Still alot a money brings the total on sorting out the speakers to £11500, hopefully selling them for about £6700, I could try the Wilson benesch Curve(home demo first), and up grade my CD player for a Wadia 861/781.

[Stevebez]

I don't think you will solve much by changing your speakers ... those 802D's are fabulous ... I think you will get the same result with others unless you go for a micro speaker set-up (e.g. Boston Micro's) with a good sub ... the sub more manoueverable in terms of getting the EQ right... but this is a very different speaker arrangement which may not be appealing.

What processor u using? Still boomy in stereo bypass mode?

What speaker sdid you have before ? ... have you maybe tried a sub-sonic filter....? This might help some resonance of plaster board and flooring - but you will lose the impact of the sub range in movies.

Rgds Steve.

P.S. does the 802D come with port bungs ... the 803D does ... maybe you can bung up the port this should tighten things up a bit.

[Recruit]

Yep it certainly does total up quite quickly if you are going to look at the Wilson Benesch range then i would certainly include the Discovery's aswell as they sound sublime, the curves are also beautiful speakers too though and would be much more suited to you're room size

[chinets]

Mr. Bass 007,
Can you give me a better price since yours are considered a used product ,and I will take then from the U.K. as I am there always and atleast 4 times a year and have them shipped to the Middle East where I am currently posted.
If you give me a better price than your offer I'M all ears.
Hope to hear from you soon. I am serious about my counter offer here!!
Best Regards,
Chinets

[bass007]

Stevebez, I use the 802D in a pure hifi set up totally separate to my AV, Musical fidleity kw500 AMP, Wadia 302 CD player, not filters, no sub on this system.

There are no plaster boards in the room.

Speakers used before, B&W 805 Signature, CDM1NT.

The 802D are supplied with no Port bungs, and its very very difficult to port them and dangerous, B&W said trying to port them may result that the material whichever I choose to use may get sucked up into the speaker!! So I didn't try just to avoid and potential probs.

Recruit do you think I will have a similar problem with the Curve or the ACT (obsivously I will have to try before buying)

[Recruit]

Recruit do you think I will have a similar problem with the Curve or the ACT (obsivously I will have to try before buying)

I would be certain that the curves or discoverys would be ideal for you're room, i heard the ACT speakers at the Bristol HiFi show and i think the best advice would be to definitly listen to them in you're room before decideing but the room was not that big that they were in so could be ok...

[bass007]

Recruit, Cheers, I just need to find a buyer now, does this form deal mainly with USA or Uk as well?

Recruit, If you know why would WB charge £5500 for the discovery and £4900 for the Curves?

[neil w]

bas
a pair went on e bay ( same finish as yours) for £5400

not really what you want to hear

neil

[Kal Rubinson]

Hi,

I have trised pulling them away from the walls, no difference whats so ever, I tried porting the reflex port but seems almost impossible.

Do you think that putting the speakers on a concrete slab would help?

Just to put things into perspective, my room is 4x4m ( 13Fx13f approx)

Tried different cables Nordost Red dawns but still.

That's a tiny and unfortunate room for these or any other large speakers. Without extensive room treatment and EQ, room modes will be excited by the bass output and you will have little in the way of placement options to ameliorate that. Frankly, in a room like that, acoustic treatment is the first step and smaller speakers with a sub is the next. What they will permit is the correct placement for imaging while allowing you independant sub placement for optimum bass. Add to that a good EQ for the sub and you may achieve what you want.

Kal

[bass007]

neil w, When? and how old was it?

Karl, thanks for that, Since buying these I will not make my final decision on speaker or any equipment from now on without a home demo, especially with the size of my room. I listened to these at the dealer and the room was ever so slightly bigger than mine, every room has its sonic signature(one lesson I will not forget)

[Kal Rubinson]

hillen, Just spoke to guy at Lyfondorf and he siad they longer to TACT? I am a bit confused.. are you in the UK?

Lyngdorf and TacT have divorced with TacT going to the software designer and Lyngdorf producing and new/similar device under his own name. (All US info.)

Kal

[bass007]

I see, still I'm not prepared to spend more to get it to sound right, I shall explore other avenues, once I get a buyer.

Neil, I checked ebay, I don't think it got sold, and it was purchased April 2005 so its nearly a year old, mine is less than 4 weeks old.

[Recruit]

Recruit, If you know why would WB charge £5500 for the discovery and £4900 for the Curves?

IMO the Discoverys have the WOW factor compared to the Curves in which the design is very unique and i am sure there is no other speaker like it in the world, infact it is described as a micro floorstander and the bass and soundstage it creates is pretty amazeing for it's size so i suppose WB can charge the premium over the Curves for it being so unique...

[Spearmint]

Sorry to read about your dilemma Bass007, I can sympathise with you and your frustrations.

There has been some great suggestions put forth, and I get the feeling you don’t want to invest anymore money into the current project, which is understandable.

I would just like to make a suggestion if I may and that is installing a Behringer CX2310 between your pre and power amp. This will allow you to utilize a subwoofer in your setup and allow the introduction of EQ to the bottom frequencies.

Until you plot your in-room responses the problem freq’s are basically unknown, but at least if you have some method of utilising a sub/s in your setup then EQ those freq’s might be a cheap solution.

[misterdoggy]

how about krell amplification. Its very bright not bassy. I had to buy a pass labs preamp to bring out more mids and bass in my room using a krell amp.

[bass007]

Hi, there has been some suggestions about the amp I am using, Musical fidelity KW500.

Indytown, state that the classe amps don't load bass? what does this mean? I listened to a few amps be purchasing the KW500 I didn't find that the amp place emphasis on the bass frequencies, I found it to be pretty balance and full of energy, it was fun to listen too.

Spearmint, you suggested the Behringer CX2310, thanks but just reading up breifly it seems that it will deliver all the bass to a sub. I am sure it would be an almost cure there is just somthing about bass comming from a sub for music, for me personally I don't like, I have tried, this is why I have my AV system totally seperate to my Hifi, no bypass, no filters...Thank you anyway.

IF I decided to change the amp and go for 2 X Classe C400 Mono blocks and a Pre would this CURE the problem? bearing in mind £11k.

Speaking to a few dealers the put forward bluntly that my Amp was to blame, they said the current delivery is no-where near for the 802D, the KW500 is rated at about 700 watts into 4ohms and I know the 802D drop to 3.5ohms, could this be a problem?

Another thing which I thought maybe worth trying not if it makes any sense, but if I were to get either some Russ Andrews/Kimber INTs with Attenuation -19 would this correct me if I'm wrong allow me to use more of the volume range of the Kw500 would this mean I will be delivering more current to speakers hence more control? or have I just gone way off!?

Also because of the bass problem i find it almost impossible to play anything with bass through the night to run them in beacuse it sounds so heavy in the house and the other half is already breaking my B***S.

Recruit, I have heard the Arcs, and Dicovery at the same demo in the past I found the discovery had better tighter bass, but I didn't find it any deeper than the Arcs? maybe the room was too big which I think it was, I love the ARCS but I want more body, in the sounds with comprmising the midrange, and the openess of the Arcs.

[krellfan]

It's the room. Changing amps won't fix the law of physics.

[misterdoggy]

It's the room. Changing amps won't fix the law of physics.

Krellfan,

True its the room, and true we can't change the law of physic's, but changing amps "does" make changes with the combinations possible to bring out certain sounds which = actually changing physical characteristics.

I will say that within the same room, space, after changing my preamp I got the warm, dynamic, I felt I did not have before. Without changing the position of the speakers or fooling with the room.

I don't know his Amp, but I've heard Classe tend to be warm sounding to begin with so this does not seem the direction to take.

[Kobus]

Changing amps will change the sound, but I doubt whether it will completely solve the problem of boomy bass.

Also a contributing factor is the fact that 007 moved from 805's. Assume that he was happy with the 805, then moving to 802 will at least be a bass revelation that some people that do not like a lot of bass will call a problem.

BTW, a friend is running the same speakers with Classe power in a reletively small room with no problem. He likes bass. And he will call the "805 sound" a problem.

Regards

Kobus

[bass007]

Kobus, I love bass!! but when its tights rythmic, musical. I agree with you moving from the 805Sigs to the 802D is a huge leap in bass.

Bass for me difficult, difficult beacuse it was either, slow, lumpy, or I found that the speaker added low frequncy to music.

I never seem to have this problem with my sub!, anyway that a different story...

[SRT-10 Viper]

How about buying the Velodyne SW that does EQ since you already have a sub... Then cross over bass to your sub at 60HZ. This could be a low cost option and should fix your problem.

[bass007]

Hi, but how to I limit the bass fromn my KW500 amp? its not HT

[SRT-10 Viper]

That's hard.. I thought you had HT too.

[Spearmint]

Hi, but how to I limit the bass fromn my KW500 amp? its not HT

The Behringer CX2310.

I am using this active crossover in my 2ch system with great results. BTW I did read your reply to my last post regarding this, if you get some time download the manual and have a read.

[Seeme]

I still believe that troubleshooting 101 should be applied here. As RebelMan stated earlier "It was previously stated, which bears repeating, "IT"S THE ROOM/PLACEMENT, not the speakers."

I feel you first need to find the root of the problem, as you will continue to mask the problem and solve the problem, never truly being happy with your sound. I still feel that you should look at the room first and pull the speakers off the wall and work your way back, then identify room modes in your room. Then try bass traps in those identified areas. You can fine tune your sound with different amps and pre-amps, cables and sources after that.

JMHO.

[Recruit]

Recruit, I have heard the Arcs, and Dicovery at the same demo in the past I found the discovery had better tighter bass, but I didn't find it any deeper than the Arcs? maybe the room was too big which I think it was, I love the ARCS but I want more body, in the sounds with comprmising the midrange, and the openess of the Arcs.

More than likely the room was too large for the Discovery's as the bass in my room is nice and deep but tight aswell infact they have got better over time as they have settled into my system...

[bass007]

Recruit, How big is your room if you don't mind me asking?

Seeme, I have tried pulling the speaker away from the back wall it make no difference, not even a bit. The only place in the room where the bass almosts disapears is near the door. Which is in the middle of the room.

[Recruit]

My room is fairly small at approx 4.5M x 3.5M...

[bass007]

roughly same size as mine, have you ever tried floorstanders in that room? oh and also is hifi or HT?

[Recruit]

roughly same size as mine, have you ever tried floorstanders in that room? oh and also is hifi or HT?

Yes i used to have a pair of ProAc Response D15's but they were easy to run in a small room anyway due to them being 2 way only, my setup is purely 2 channel HiFi as i have a seperate AV setup and prefer to keep the 2 seperate...

Edit - My setups can be found here

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14341&start=0&rid=3944&SQ=1143822720

[bass007]

WOW! low the Arulex looks fab, I also have my system separate, I have the same MK's 3 X 150s and ss150 Surrounds!!

I may really consider the discovey if the curves don't work in my room, I will even try the ACT.

Great Set up where about are you?

[Phil Rose]

To follow the previous Behringer suggestion but, with a slighlty different recommendation. http://www.behringer.com/DEQ2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG

This Behringer digital equalizer includes a RTA function when used with their calibrated microphone that may take care of your issues. I can't tell where you're located but the US prices are (from memory) ~ $395 for the DEQ2496 and ~ $50 for the calibrated mic. There are many places that sell for less and this might be a cost effective solution for your problem. Many folks on Audiogon.com have used this device to great effect.

There are a couple of ways that you could configure the system. First, use the DEQ2496 in the digital stream between a transport and DAC; second, use the DEQ2496 between the analog outs of the CD player and before the analog inputs to the pre-mp; third, in analog mode in the tape in/out loop of a pre-amp. The first way would probably be the most desirable by eliminating the additional A/D-D/A conversions.

[Recruit]

WOW! low the Arulex looks fab, I also have my system separate, I have the same MK's 3 X 150s and ss150 Surrounds!!

I may really consider the discovey if the curves don't work in my room, I will even try the ACT.

Great Set up where about are you?

Cheers, i am in the good old county of kent