All else being equal, what makes the most difference, electronics or speakers

[tboooe]

Hi, I recently heard the 802D paired with Ayre preamp and amp. The results were amazing! So of course this got me thinking about upgrading from my Parasound + 804S setup which got me thinking about if I should upgrade the electronics or speakers first. Then I started to think if I really needed to upgrade both the speakers and electronics. Which leads me to my question. All else being equal, do the electronics or speaker make the most difference? Can I get 90% of the sound reproduction I heard with the 802D + Ayre setup without having to replace my entire setup? Obviously for the sake of my wallet and marriage, I would much rather only upgrade one or the other (speaker or electronics). Thanks in advance.

[grit]

I'm no expert, but I'm gonna say "synergy" is what makes the biggest difference. At a certain point though, you max out the capabilities of your equipment and it's time to upgrade. The obvious test at this point is to take your parasound amp and test it on 802Ds (or similar) and test the Ayre on 804's. Also, dont forget to take into account the listening environment, which I've found can make a big difference.

[PavelL]

I believe EVERYTHING matters. But speakers always come first. Then the speakers of your choice must be driven properly. And here comes the electronics part. Speaking of 800 series that have a very wide dispersion /originally designed for larger rooms/ first reflections must be adressed. That is if you are after pin-point imaging and do not have a ballroom to place 802Ds in. So room treatment comes to play. And so on. If you buy otherwise good speakers with narrow dispersion you may get better imaging in smaller rooms, but you will only get it in a "sweet spot"....

This will be slightly off topic, yet may serve as an illustration. I read some reports from CES'06. I found that Mr. Wilson was using underpowered B&W800Ds in a SMALL room to show "superiority" of his !!!10000$!!! bookshelves. Easily gullible typos fell for it. I'm affraid I went too far in this post, but anyway... just felt like posting :lol:

[misterdoggy]

I think from Parasound and 804s' up to Ayre and 802D's there will be a difference. You already have "excellent" material, so upgrades make small differences. I think you would hear more of a difference in the speaker than the Amp. The Amp will be different, but the difference between 804S and 802D is much more. I have both these speakers right now and can verify it. I would change the speaker first. Then when you can the Amp. You A21 should do the Job. The 802D's don't need a lot of power, but the more power you give them the more they like it and they can take a lot of power. I've got 400 "A" watts on each speaker and they like it fine.

[Karma]

HI,
I have to agree with Grit. Synergy though, may come at a high price for the right amp. I think most folks, in an attempt to balance costs, don't spend nearly enough on amplifiers or electronics in general. With your speakers, you could easily justify the finest amplification available if you can afford it. I think doggy is doing it the right way.

Sparky

[worldys]

i hear a bigger difference when i upgrade speakers than when i upgrade electronics, the only exception to that was going from a solid state pre-amp to a tube pre-amp

s

[tboooe]

thanks everyone for the replies. Right now I am indifferent between electronics and speakers since they should roughly cost me the same. I am concerned about my room size and the 802D though. Right now i am in rather large family room with vaulted ceilings. However, this situation will change when I get my study in a few years which is much smaller (12' x 12'). Is this room too small for the 802D? Given my small room I wonder if the 804S is a better fit.

[grit]

For a 12x12 room? Yes, I'd think the 804's would be a great fit. By the time you try to place the 802's, I don't really think you'd want them there anyway. Remember, sound travels BECAUSE of air (no sound in a vacuum). Not enough air in a room is gonna leave them sounding constricted (I would presume, can't claim to have tested this).

[tboooe]

so given my small room, it make more sense to keep my 804S and change the electronics so maximize their potential?

[Karma]

HI tboooe,
Yes, I think so. So much depends on your budget and tastes. Your speakers will do justice to high end amplification.

Sparky

[Joey_V]

I would say that the 802D would be fine in that room. Go with the speakers and not the electronics.

[Gump]

When I upgraded from the 604's to the 803D's the difference in sound was huge---phenominal! I'm talking about sit with a big grin on my face repeating the word "unbelievable" kind of huge. And that was still driving them with my Marantz SR8200 reciever. Since then I've been researching and demo'ing a variety of high-end electronics to compliment the speakers. Now there is no doubt that the speakers open up and sound much better with the good (expensive) equipment, especially with detail and authority of sound. However, that "huge" and "phenominal" immediate impact that happened with the speaker upgrade hasn't occurred with the different electronics. It's been a more subtle improvement.

Maybe the difference between the 804S and 802D speakers won't be quite as significant as my experience was jumping from the 604's all the way up to the 800 series. But I think if you have the green light on a set of 802D's you shouldn't pass on the opportunity. Those are speakers that should last a lifetime. (or pretty darn close). Worry about the room issues later!!

As far as my situation goes, I thought I had pretty much decided to go with the Classe equipment. Contrary to some opinions I've read, I think the Classe has a very warm and almost tube-like sound . Kinda like putting your feet in a warm pair of slippers on a cold winter morning, audibly of course. That was until I've been reading some new threads (including your's tbooe) about lines of electronics I hadn't considered before--- Ayre, B.A.T., maybe even Nuforce. I also hadn't considered the tube route either.

I'm trying not to rush into any decisions because whatever I get, I (and my wife) plan on me living with it for awhile...

[tboooe]

Thanks guys...I am leaning towards getting the speakers too. I think you are right gump, electronics wont give me the most impact in terms of improvement.

As for classe, I am going to give them another listen. If you want to warm up your sound a bit but stay with SS, try Plinius. I am having their m8 preamp shipped to my house for demo next week. I also just heard the BAT preamp and amp...I am not sure if it was the choice of speakers (Audio Physics) but the sound was a bit on the dark side..
dont get me wrong, it sounded very nice, smooth, detailed...

After my round of speaker auditioning, I feel that I prefer the clarity and forward presentation of B&W speakers. Everything else sounds veiled and colored to me. This weekend I am going to try and listen to JM Labs again so I can really evaluate their BE tweeter.

[RebelMan]

The consensus here appears to suggest that upgrading speakers first followed by electronics will deliever the biggest audiable gains/changes that you may be looking for and I agree. In my opinion speakers are more important in the reproduction chain. However, there is a big caveat to this recommendation. It won't be long after you buy your new speakers that you will be looking at ways to "max" them out.

Believe me, I am going through this delima right now. I know that the 800D's that I have in mind would be awesome to own and listen too in my relatively smallish 12x16 room using my Rotel gear. But I also know that it would be an act of injustice having all of their great potiential going to waste because I decided to skimp on "power", and I don't mean in the literal sence of wpc but "ability". When I made a direct comparision of my "lowly" 803S's against the 803D's and the 802D's using the same electronics (Classe') and in the same room (somewhat treated), my 803S's sounded incredible and the differences between the 803D and the 802D were far less significant.

Sure the 802D's still possessed more air and the 803D's more impact than my 803S's but not in a huge or phenominal way. As a result I decided to "max" out my 803S's with the finest eqiupment that I can buy while building a speaker upgrade path into my plans so that I loose nothing in the equipment investment. This approach gives me the best of "both" worlds, now and later. Who knows with the right equipment I may not need to upgrade my speakers at all or at least not for a very long time.

I think speaker and component matching (synergy) and room acoustics are crucial for making great sound. Moral of the story is... "Don't make compromises that you can not afford to live with (at least for a while)."

[tboooe]

Thanks Rebelman, I was initially thinking exactly as you...maximize my 804S. However, considering that there such a difference in performance between the 804S and 802D, I feel that even when maximized the 804S will not be close to the 802D. In your situation, the 803S is not that far away from the 802D so I can understand the idea of maximizing that speaker. I am sure with nice gear, the 803S will sound pretty darn similar to the 802D or even the 800D.

I also understand your point about having the right upstream components. I recognize that once i hit the slippery slope of getting the 802D I will have to upgrade my preamp and amp. I do believe that what I have now will suffice for a year until my wallet catches up with my ears and I am able to upgrade the electronics. In a way it is good that I will be broke after buying the 802D since I will be able to take my time and audition electronics.

Are you thinking of going back to the same dealer? Hopefully you are thinking what I am thinking....

[RebelMan]

Are you thinking of going back to the same dealer? Hopefully you are thinking what I am thinking....

Hmmmm, maaaayyybe. :B

[DavidB]

I've listened to 803D's and 802D's on the and of the same system in a relatively small room say 12'x12'. The difference between the two is quite marked in my opinion with the 802D's being a league apart. I would definitely invest in them and upgrade elctronics over time.

[tboooe]

davidb, can you tell me what amp and preamp was used? can you please also describe in more detail the differences you heard?

[Alaric]

You can always buy a better amp...

You can always buy a better amp-but if your speakers aren't up to the task it won't matter (much).

[DavidB]

That particular demo was done using some Naim and Meridian equipment. I see your based in the USA so I have no idea if they are avaiable over there. I listened to the 803 and 802d's through both a Meridian and a Naim system so quite a good test of there relative abilities. If I hadn't listened to the 802D's I would have thought the 803d's would have sounded great and honestly the differences between the two system was relatively difficult to tell, however when it came to listening through the 802D's the true differences became very apparent, it was like the 803D's were almost holding the electronics back. The 802D's to me are much more open and just streets ahead of the 803D's and really show the character of the electronics feeding them. The price difference in the UK between the 802D and 803D is about £2500, I don't think you could spend that money anyway else in your system and get such a huge difference.
I'm actually testing the 802D's this weekend with three different amp's, can't wait.

[JimTW]

davidb, can you tell me what amp and preamp was used? can you please also describe in more detail the differences you heard?

I'm not davidb, but I thought I'd throw in some 2 cents.
I've heard the 802Ds on Class equipment, and the 803Ds
on Krell and McIntosh equipment. The 803Ds definitely
sound nice, the Diamond tweeters are just awesome.
However, when I heard the 802Ds, I was instantly
impressed, which means my ears definitely notice the
effects of the bowlingball mid range. With the 803Ds,
I can still hear where the speakers are located. With
the 802Ds, the speakers just disappear. Also, the 802Ds
have a slightly wider sweet spot, meaning if I leaned
my head couple feet to the left or right, I'm still in the
vicinity of the sweet spot. With the 803s and lower,
that sweet spot is smaller. I attribute this to the wider
dispersion pattern resulting from the marlan heads.
The sound stage of the 802Ds are also wider, deeper,
and definitely more 3 dimensional. So I agree with DavidB,
the 802Ds are "streets ahead" of the 803Ds.

Just my opinion on what I hear using my ears! =D

Ofcourse, the 802Ds are mad expensive!

[tboooe]

davidb and jimtw:

thanks for the response.

the 802Ds are mad expensive but I am crazy enough to buy them!

[JimTW]

davidb and jimtw:

thanks for the response.

the 802Ds are mad expensive but I am crazy enough to buy them!

So you're going to go from 804S to 802D? Nice.. now THAT's pimp!!! :T

[tboooe]

thanks jimtw...dont tell the wifey. right now i am full tactical operations mode trying to determine how i am going to either convince or trick my wife into accepting the fact that i am going to upgrade yet again...the excuse that this is my last upgrade is not going to work since i used it once already. any ideas how to defeat this worthy opponent who consistently stands in the way of sonic bliss would be greatly appreciated.

because it is such a jump i believe upgrading speakers will make the most difference to me. if i was going from 804s to 803s i would probably lean towards changing electronics.

[JimTW]

thanks jimtw...dont tell the wifey. right now i am full tactical operations mode trying to determine how i am going to either convince or trick my wife into accepting the fact that i am going to upgrade yet again...the excuse that this is my last upgrade is not going to work since i used it once already. any ideas how to defeat this worthy opponent who consistently stands in the way of sonic bliss would be greatly appreciated.

because it is such a jump i believe upgrading speakers will make the most difference to me. if i was going from 804s to 803s i would probably lean towards changing electronics.

LOL! Sorry tboooe, I can't help you on this one, I am single so I don't
have a worthy opponent who consistently stands in the way of sonic
bliss. =D Good luck though! May the sonic bliss be with you.