Most bang for your upgrade buck?

[sparky0173]

First off, let me declare that I'm a complete NOOB when it comes to high end sound equipment. I was hoping to get some sound advice from the more seasoned veterans on the best upgrade path.

I've been listening to 2 channel music from my B&W DM601 S3's powered by my humble Denon AVR-1802 and sourced from a Toshiba SD-6200 DVD player for some time. Now that I have just a bit more disposable income, I'm interested in hearing music closer to its intended sound. I know that any equipment upgrade would likely produce better music, but for $1000, where should my money be spent? Would higher quality speakers make more of difference than higher quality electronics? The way I see it, I could replace my speakers and use the same receiver or keep the speakers and invest in new a new amp or CD player or even a combination of the two.

I don't like upgrading for the sake of having the newest system around. What I ultimately want is tangible quality at a reasonable value. To that end, I don't mind used equipment as long as it was well taken care of. What are your thoughts? Any feedback would be GREATLY appreciated!

[Bob]

The key here, IMHO, is the $1000. You need to upgrade your entire system in order to get a 2 channel system that will satisfy you for years. You simply can't do that for $1000. A satisfying 2 channel system has always been expensive, at least in my lifetime of 60 years.

So, where do you start? I would suggest one of two things that would be a immediate improvement. However, only one of them would be future proof.

The first is, buy a I-pod and the best docking station/DAC you can afford. Nobody needs a cd player anymore. Not only will it outperform you player it can go everywhere with you. Hooks up to your car, earplugs, most hotel radios, etc. But, like all sources, you will always be upgrading it.

The other choice would be the best speakers you can buy used for $1000. While there are many out there, I can only think of one that audiophiles keep for years and years. Something from the Vandersteen 2 series. With proper placement they are pretty darn good.

Then, the next time you have the money, you need the best pre amp or integrated amp you can afford. After that a TT and you are finished for a lifetime.

[looneybomber]

My best upgrade was a bigger, more powerful receiver. (less distortion)
My next best upgrade was a big 2chan amp. (even more output with less distortion).
Now I'm at the limits of my speakers (they're distorting), so I'm working on upgrading those.

...one weak link at a time. And by no means is my system awesome, or even expensive, so keep that in mind.

The first is, buy a I-pod and the best docking station/DAC you can afford.

The other choice would be the best speakers you can buy used for $1000.

Then, the next time you have the money, you need the best pre amp or integrated amp you can afford.

Wait, so you want to use crappy MP3's and an iPod as the source, yet buy "the best" preamp/amp you can afford? Is that so you can cleanly amplify a distorted signal?

[gianni]

Wait, so you want to use crappy MP3's and an iPod as the source, yet buy "the best" preamp/amp you can afford? Is that so you can cleanly amplify a distorted signal?

Too many assumptions in this statement. Nobody mentioned MP3. What about FLAC or the term lossless? Are you aware of the ways in which folks are using ipods and other devices as players/servers in high end systems these days?

And yes, I still believe in a good dedicated cd player.

[htsteve]

sparky0173,

If your Denon has preout's, I would get a very nice outboard amp to drive your speakers. I had the original 601's. They sounded very nice. Once I got them on outboard or high quality amplification, they sound much better. I'm thinking you can find a very nice new or used two channel amp from Rotel in your budget. The next thing I would consider is a subwoofer (I didn't see one mentioned). 601's are very good performers, but a good sub will definitly fill in the bottom end.

If you are only into two channel, I would consider something like a Rotel integrated amp. Very clean two channel sound with excellent amplification. I believe they are around $700 or $800 new.


Hope this helps.

[exojam]

I agree with htsteve on the outboard amp. I bought a used Rotel RMP-1075 for my Denon 3803 and it was very good difference. I would also strongly suggest looking into making or purchasing acoustical treatments.

[sparky0173]

Thanks everyone for your input! It certainly helps to have some direction in this matter.

I know that $1000 is a very modest budget in the audio world. I do have realistic expectations on what I could get for $1000. I know a mind blowing nirvanic experience isn't one of them. However, I would like a bit more clarity and openess to the sound.

Many of you mentioned good quality amplification. My Denon does have preouts which I could hook up a better power amp to. I'm wondering if investing in say a used Rotel amp would give me better results than say a pair of higher quality used speakers. Can I squeeze a little more out of my speakers with better electronics?

[exojam]

I think it could be case of catch 22. If you get better speakers are you limited by your Denon? If you get another amp are you limited by your speakers? I think you will have to make that choice. I would not dwell on only having 1K to upgrade right now. I have found out the hard way, once you upgrade one thing, you then want to upgrade the next. It can be a long and fun process and you should not think you have to get everything right now. I really believe you should look at a used amp and room treatments which will make a nice difference.

[impala454]

I can third the recommendation on amp upgrade. I recently bought an Emotiva XPA-5 and sent it pre-outs from my Denon 2307CI and it was an amazing improvement in SQ.

[sparky0173]

exojam,

I think you hit the nail right on the head. There is always room for improvement, but you can't have everything all at once.

Having said that, what amps do you recommend? What kind of room treatments are we looking at and where would they be placed? Thanks!

[exojam]

If it is for only two channel, maybe an EP1500 or EP2500. They have a bit of power and could be moved to sub duty when the time comes. Maybe something from Crown also.

Hopefully some other folks can through some ideas out there in regards to amps (which more knowledge than I).

Since you have the money, do not rush and research what you want. Also check for used items to save some money. Almost all AV forums have a "for sale" section along with Audiogon.

[htsteve]

sparky0173,

You bring up a very good dilemma, upgrade speakers or electronics. Normally, I would say, speakers first, electronics a close second, then sources and finally cables. However in your case, I believe the amp section of the Denon is most likely the weak link in this situation. With an outboard amp, you not only improve your detail, bass, soundstage (which you've stated is what you want), you will have a great foundation for when you purchase a better pair of speakers.

Tough call. A better pair of speakers might work out nicely, but I'm really concerned about a modest receiver running a good pair of speakers (preferably tower speakers). A good amp will run most anything with gusto.


Happy hunting.

[sparky0173]

Just some more information for you...I use a surround receiver because I do watch movies on occasion with my system (~25% of the time). I have DM600 S3's for rears and I just purchased a used CDM Cnt for the center channel. It seems that many of you are suggesting upgrading the amplification. I believe my receiver has preouts, so would hooking up a multichannel Rotel 1075 still provide good quality 2 channel output? Is it possible to get a better 2 channel amp and integrate that into my current setup and have the receiver power the center and surrounds?

What really spurred on the idea of an upgrade was the recent acquisition of the CDM Cnt. I did some one channel A/B speaker comparisons between my current DM601 S3's and the CDM Cnt and notice that the sound from the CDM was much more open, less muffled, more detailed, and louder. Certainly with $1000, I know that compromises have to made. I don't mind upgrading slowly and I like to maximize the performance of what I have before moving on to the next. Up until this time, I've been mostly entertaining the idea of getting better speakers (possibly used CDM 7nts), but a few members have brought up some interesting points about the importance of good amplification and even having the room setup properly. Much to think about....

[htsteve]

Just some more information for you...I use a surround receiver because I do watch movies on occasion with my system (~25% of the time). I have DM600 S3's for rears and I just purchased a used CDM Cnt for the center channel. It seems that many of you are suggesting upgrading the amplification. I believe my receiver has preouts, so would hooking up a multichannel Rotel 1075 still provide good quality 2 channel output? Is it possible to get a better 2 channel amp and integrate that into my current setup and have the receiver power the center and surrounds?

What really spurred on the idea of an upgrade was the recent acquisition of the CDM Cnt. I did some one channel A/B speaker comparisons between my current DM601 S3's and the CDM Cnt and notice that the sound from the CDM was much more open, less muffled, more detailed, and louder. Certainly with $1000, I know that compromises have to made. I don't mind upgrading slowly and I like to maximize the performance of what I have before moving on to the next. Up until this time, I've been mostly entertaining the idea of getting better speakers (possibly used CDM 7nts), but a few members have brought up some interesting points about the importance of good amplification and even having the room setup properly. Much to think about....

Sparky0173,

A Rotel 1075 would be an excellent addition to that setup. It will give you a big upgrade in all channels, 2 or 5. And Rotel is conservative in their power ratings. You can expect actual performance to be 15-20% higher than rated. I have a couple of friends who have a receiver and then added an outboard Rotel to their B&W 600 series system. They are quite happy right now. In terms of system bang for the buck, a 1075 would be excellent.

I'm not surprised at your observations about the CDM. I had an older version of that center channel that I really liked.

As to room setup, some things to consider:

Carpeting
Curtains over windows
If it is a room with a door, put in a solid door.
Put 60 degree 10" triangles in the upper corners. Easy to do with artist matte and some push pins. Uppers corners in a room act as small horns. They add blare to the overall sound. the good news is that matte comes in a alot of colors, so it has higher WAF. See attached picture.

Also, having the main speakers 'out' as far away from cabinetry or entertainment centers will open them up. For rear speakers, have your seating position in front of the 600's. This enhances the surround feel.

Also, don't be afraid to toe in the speakers a bit. Experiment a bit.


Hope this helps.

[exojam]

Here are some of the treatments I made for my family room area.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849737&highlight=treatments

[Hdale85]

I think there are better bang for buck amps out there over Rotel. Emotiva is an excellent example or Outlaw.

[sparky0173]

I intially thought of Rotel because I see them in almost every audio store that sells B&W and it seems like a very popular mating in the forums.

Dougie085 and impala454, both of you mentioned Emotiva amps. How is the sound produced by their amps? Would they work well with B&W speakers?

I don't listen to music very loudly (I live in a San Francisco apartment with neighbors everywhere). Most of the music I listen to consists of jazz, modern and alternative rock, and classical guitar.

I also had a question about amplifier output. If a pair of speakers is rated at 25-100W at 8ohms, would an amp producing 200w per channel at 8ohms damage the speaker?

[Hdale85]

Wattage is a bit of a mirage. The only way you would damage is if you turn them up to loud. I'm not sure about Emotiva on B&W as I build my speakers and so Does Impala454. I do know that I've heard several Rotel amps and have never been overly impressed I know a lot of people love them but I'm just not one of them. The XPA-2 is supposed to sound quite a bit better then the XPA-5 and XPA-3 that Impala454 and I have and the XPA-5 and XPA-3 sound excellent and have tons and tons of power on reserve. Honestly for 699 its hard to pass up. Also if you don't end up liking it they have a 30 day money back guarantee or in home trial. You really can't lose other then a few bucks on shipping and I don't think you would be disappointed with the purchase at all. Outlaw is some what of the same deal internet only company with a 30 day in home trial money back guarantee sort of thing. I've heard a few people in the Emotiva forums say they like the Emo stuff over the Outlaw stuff but I don't have any personal experience with Outlaw.

[Bob]

Wait, so you want to use crappy MP3's and an iPod as the source, yet buy "the best" preamp/amp you can afford? Is that so you can cleanly amplify a distorted signal?

I-Pod and Dac/Docking station such as Wadia, yes. MP3 no, at least I wouldn't go that way but, through Sparky's present system it wouldn't matter. And, it is only a worthwhile change if he wants to change his source rather than make the more important changes he will need.

If well thought out, you can go through one upgrade cycle and be done for decades. That cycle needs to include speakers, amp, and source. If done with care, each part of the equation could be done for under $1000 per item. You can start with electronics first, or speakers first.

I would argue that you can build a more satisfying system, and save more money, if you start with the speakers. For a couple of reasons. There are a lot of good used speakers available now for under $1000. My suggestion of the Vandersteen 2 series was only because I don't know of any other speaker in that price range that has satisfied as many audiophiles over such a lentgh of time.

In regards to electronics. You could also start there for your first upgrade. Not a seperate amp, however. If you buy a seperate amp you will also have to eventually buy a pre amp to replace your receiver. Adding one more component to buy, and another $1000. Good to excellent integrated amps are relatively new on the audio scene. The deals on them in the used market aren't as good as the market for proven speakers. Even just waiting a year could mean improving what you can buy today. Which is why I would make electronics the second purchase, not the first.

Source should absolutely be the last upgrade. Not because it is the least important but, because digital is changing away from cds and dvds. If you spend much money now on a cd player you will be like the people who bought tape cassette players just before cds came out. Although, like cassettes, you probably will still find cds at truck stops for a while after the change over takes place.

[Hdale85]

He wouldn't absolutely have to replace the receiver. He may want to eventually but just adding a nice amp to the receiver is going to be a huge step up.

[dknightd]

My experience has been that changing speakers almost always makes more difference than changing an amp (unless you were overdriving your previous amp). Yes an amp can make a difference, but, not nearly as big as changing a speaker. Anyway, that has been my experience. I'd choose new speakers first, then later upgrade the amp, if needed, to match the new speakers.

You might notice a small improvement by upgrading your amp, but IMO not nearly as obvious as changing your 601 to something in the cdm series that matches your new/used center.

Before you do anything, you might want to try some free things. Moving a speaker in the room can make a big difference. Have you played with your speaker positioning at all? Sometimes just a few inches can make a big difference in how they sound (sometimes not - but it all it takes is time and interest to try)

Let me ask you this - if you clap your hands in your listening room can you hear it echo? If so some absorbers place at the first reflection points in your room might help clear things up ALOT.

[dyazdani]

A CD player has no error correction or ways of fixing errors on a disk.

This is not exactly a true statement...

[dyazdani]

I have two basic comments:

1) I would do what you can for no/low cost; items of interest are speaker placement and room treatments (DIY)

2) I would not make a drawn out series of marginal upgrades over many years. I would think about where you want to end up and save for major upgrades.

and one more (so I lied) - I tend to see bigger differences with speaker upgrades vs. other components.

[Hdale85]

Nevermind.

[Rbrockman]

You mentioned 2-channel music so I am assuming this is the intent of the upgrade and not HT.

I recently have begun putting together a seperate 2-channel setup. Like others have said this is more a journey than a destination, but I believe if you carefully plan ahead it can be done in increments.

I choose to eliminate all sources except for a Slim Devices Duet which can play all of the music formats (including lossless) I have on a media server. It outputs both analog and digital signals. I have no reservations about recommending this transport. I'll be purchasing additional Duet receivers and placing them in other rooms.

After a lengthly search for a amplifier within my budget and based upon the opinions of a wide variety of forums, I choose the Parasound Halo A23. I can also highly recommend this.

Concerning speakers. You can buy new, used, or build your own. This forum has an active DIY section in which you can see many proven designs. I choose to begin with the Modula MT monitors and integrate a sub. These speakers have surpassed my expectations for a very low cost.

I'm very pleased with the sound and simplicity of this setup. The journey is far from over, but it hasn't been a huge investment so far. Next up for me is a seperate DAC and full range DIY speakers.

Enjoy your journey!

[dknightd]

I might be wrong, but I thought all CD players had at least some kind of error correction.

Doesn't matter to me, once you get used to the point and click interface it is hard to go back to spinning a disk.
But I am interested in learning more. perhaps it would make a good seperate thread.

[GregLett]

Just some more information for you...I use a surround receiver because I do watch movies on occasion with my system (~25% of the time). I have DM600 S3's for rears and I just purchased a used CDM Cnt for the center channel. It seems that many of you are suggesting upgrading the amplification. I believe my receiver has preouts, so would hooking up a multichannel Rotel 1075 still provide good quality 2 channel output? Is it possible to get a better 2 channel amp and integrate that into my current setup and have the receiver power the center and surrounds?

What really spurred on the idea of an upgrade was the recent acquisition of the CDM Cnt. I did some one channel A/B speaker comparisons between my current DM601 S3's and the CDM Cnt and notice that the sound from the CDM was much more open, less muffled, more detailed, and louder. Certainly with $1000, I know that compromises have to made. I don't mind upgrading slowly and I like to maximize the performance of what I have before moving on to the next. Up until this time, I've been mostly entertaining the idea of getting better speakers (possibly used CDM 7nts), but a few members have brought up some interesting points about the importance of good amplification and even having the room setup properly. Much to think about....

sparky0173,

This says it all. If you liked what you heard with the new center, I would go for used CDM's before I start changing other equipment.

[dyazdani]

Can you show me a CDP that uses error correction? There are no stand alone CDP's that use this that I know of. You could go through a PC but even software that just plays CD's I don't think implement any sort of error correction. It's just the way playing a CD works. A program that rips from the disk is reading the data vs just playing the music.

I'm not sure how a CDp can just "play the music" as it is binary data. Some of the data on the disc are error correction codes.

Most if not all modern CD players employ error correction. Look it up yourself if you don't believe...

[Hdale85]

Nevermind

[dtb300]

If I am not mistaken, the data and format on the CD is specified in the Redbook specifications paper. Data on the disc is: music, sector headers, CRC values, etc similar to regular hard disk data. Then as Dougie states the software uses this data to determine if there was an error or not.

So both the data on the disc and the software are responsible for error-correction.

[dyazdani]

The error codes are built into the CD as part of the data sectors. The music uses about 3/4 of the bits with the rest being EC information. This error correction is also a standard name called Reed Solomon...

It is true though that there is also software correction that can apply other tricks to analyze and correct errors in addition to the RS process.

[kgveteran]

I know the equipment upgrade is way more fun than rolling your own tube traps or making accoustic panels, but the room is a big part of the sound. I know some of us are a little more over the top than others about this, but we have heard the difference ourselves.

Enjoy your new equipment if you get some and when the time comes to treat the room we'll all chime in !

Kg

[Curt C]

I know that any equipment upgrade would likely produce better music, but for $1000, where should my money be spent?

I stumbled onto this thread late, my apologies. I'm usually over at the Mission Possible DIY forum, but thought I'd share some observations while I was here...

The B&W site, for whatever reason, no longer lists the 601S3, so I assumed the performance would be somewhere between earlier S2 and the newer 686. In either case, with that small, 6.5" 2 way, and its f3 of around 60 Hz, you are missing the lowest octave and a half of the music. NO new amp or source player will change that limitation.

Consequently, I'll reiterate other's suggestions that that your biggest improvement for $1000 will be obtaining speakers that will at least go down to 40 Hz. Since you like jazz: the low E on an upright bass (or electric bass) is 40 Hz. Yes, higher quality amps and sources may improve the sound, but nothing like hearing it without a low frequency restriction...

I won't make any speaker suggestions other than; find a place that will let you take them home for auditioning. Trying to choose in a showroom is difficult at best, and impossible in any cases.

If you have the ability and facilities for construction, you can get several times your 'bang for the buck', by building your own speakers from proven designs such as those available at the Mission Possible fourm. Ask over there for suggestions...

C

[servicetech]

$1,000 would build a sweet set of speakers, that's your best bang for the $$$ if you have somewhere to build them.

[sparky0173]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I ended up getting a pair of used 7nt's in great condition! I was able to audition them at the seller's home. I heard music played from his Esoteric CD player linked to a fancy DAC with a gain control that was hooked up directly into 250w Parasound amps. The speakers definitely performed! Great detail, open soundstage, and tremendous clarity.

After bringing them home, I began to notice the deficiencies in my own setup. Granted they are not properly positioned at the moment, the sound that came out of them were not as lively. Having said that, they still sounded MUCH fuller than the DM601's. I suspect the 80W coming out of my receiver just isn't producing enough power to drive the speakers properly and the better speakers are really beginning to expose this!

The person who sold me the speakers recommended that I move away from the receiver and into seperates as soon as I could afford it. I'm wondering if getting decent quality 2 channel power amp with some power is the way to go. I ended up getting pretty good deal on the speakers, so now I have a bit of head room to buy a used 2 channel amp if I searched carefully. He recommended a used Acurus A150 amp. He said for the money (~$200-$250 used), they can't be beat. What do you think? Do you think getting 2 channel amp at this point is worthwhile or should I save up some more and get something better? Is there anything around $200-$300 dollars that is even worth looking at used? Again 2 channel audio is my main priority and I do have preouts on my receiver.

[dyazdani]

My dad had an Acurus 125x5 a few years back, they are not bad components. Actually, you can also get the older 5.1 pre/pro (Act 3) for next to nothing.

I'd also look at B&K Reference amps and possibly something like an Anthem MCA 20 or Rotel 1080. Both will be in the $4-500 range, give or take.

Another step up, but still under $1k could get you a newer Rotel, Audio Research D130 (I had one and they are very nice), or possibly an older Bryston or Classe (Model 10 or 15 maybe). Take your time and shop around, there are a lot of choices in that range for something older but good quality.

[AirMotion]

Build your own speakers! Start with an Air Motion Heil tweeter, the big chunky 4.5kg one from the old ESS AMT1 A to D built in the mid 70's to the late 80's. For a very small room 8 inch woofers in a sealed box otherwise 10 inch ones , has to be flat to 1000Hz+ and the XO with a Behringer 2496 Ultra drive (AUS $480.00) and a couple of power amps. Whatever you can find 30W +. With this you will hit Music/HiFi bliss for less then 3K! Unbeatable value. Forget cables, forget Vinyl or CD, even a great MP3 track will do trust me it took me years to get to this conclusion and too many systems to mention...Naim...Quad...Usher...