B&W 800's Better with Ayre or Classe'?

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  • Greg Gale
    Member
    • Nov 2006
    • 49

    #46
    I evaluated the Ayre K5xe versus the Classe CP500 and Ayre won hands down

    I spent over a week evaluating the Ayre K5xe against my existing Classe CP47.5 and the new Delta series CP500. The Ayre with the help of several other audiophiles in the room was felt to be smoother sounding, more three dimensional with a deeper sound stage. Furthermore the music sounded "more realistic" and took the edge off the leading transients of the music which in my opinion could cause listening fatigue over time.

    I really wanted to like the new Classe as this would match up to my Classe CA201 Power Amp, and had more inputs and a balanced phono stage option.

    At the end of the day however what was most important to me was the musicality of the system.

    My other components are:

    Marantz SA14 SACD player
    Rega P25 with Dynavector XH20
    N802 Speakers
    Greg Gale

    Main System:
    802 D2
    Classe CA2300
    Ayre K5XEMP
    Graham Slee Reflex M
    Esoteric X-05 SACD
    VPI Classic 3
    Dynavector X20x2
    Oppo BDP 95

    Comment

    • tboooe
      Senior Member
      • Jun 2005
      • 657

      #47
      Originally posted by Greg Gale
      I spent over a week evaluating the Ayre K5xe against my existing Classe CP47.5 and the new Delta series CP500. The Ayre with the help of several other audiophiles in the room was felt to be smoother sounding, more three dimensional with a deeper sound stage. Furthermore the music sounded "more realistic" and took the edge off the leading transients of the music which in my opinion could cause listening fatigue over time.

      I really wanted to like the new Classe as this would match up to my Classe CA201 Power Amp, and had more inputs and a balanced phono stage option.

      At the end of the day however what was most important to me was the musicality of the system.

      My other components are:

      Marantz SA14 SACD player
      Rega P25 with Dynavector XH20
      N802 Speakers

      I wonder how the Ayre would compare to the CP-700 preamp. Do you have an opportunity to do this comparison?

      Comment

      • Eliav
        Senior Member
        • Jul 2005
        • 484

        #48
        Originally posted by tboooe
        I wonder how the Ayre would compare to the CP-700 preamp. Do you have an opportunity to do this comparison?
        tboooe
        I think Rebelman has gone through a very meticulous comparison between Ayre and Classe gear ( was is a pre or a cd player ?) and found them both similarly pleasing with the Classe being slightly more reveilng. His most important observation wan IMO that with Ayre there was definite FATIGUE after a while.
        I don't think that at these levels any brand can win 'hands down".
        BTW, as for the Ayre vs Classe comparison mentioned above, it is extremely important to mention the other gear used ( the cd source and the amplifiers) as these play a major role on getting the best of the item in test.
        Eliav
        :T Socrat

        Comment

        • sikoniko
          Super Senior Member
          • Aug 2003
          • 2299

          #49
          I did an a/b test between the classe cdp-100 and ayre cx7e. Even the dealer felt the classe was a better choice, and he only sold ayre (i brought my cdp in to compare based on this thread and to make sure I made the right choice).
          I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

          Comment

          • chinets
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2005
            • 855

            #50
            Well written Review!! Bravo!!

            RebelMan,

            Well written, and detailed Information galore!! Good Job! Impressed! :T

            You should be a reviewer my friend!!! ;x(

            Hope you will enjoy your Classe to the max!! Congratulations!!

            Chinets

            Comment

            • Greg Gale
              Member
              • Nov 2006
              • 49

              #51
              Originally posted by tboooe
              I wonder how the Ayre would compare to the CP-700 preamp. Do you have an opportunity to do this comparison?
              I have not compared the Ayre to the Classe CP700 as this was out of my price range. The Classe CP500 was in a similar price range to the Ayre.
              Greg Gale

              Main System:
              802 D2
              Classe CA2300
              Ayre K5XEMP
              Graham Slee Reflex M
              Esoteric X-05 SACD
              VPI Classic 3
              Dynavector X20x2
              Oppo BDP 95

              Comment

              • Greg Gale
                Member
                • Nov 2006
                • 49

                #52
                Originally posted by Eliav
                tboooe
                I think Rebelman has gone through a very meticulous comparison between Ayre and Classe gear ( was is a pre or a cd player ?) and found them both similarly pleasing with the Classe being slightly more reveilng. His most important observation wan IMO that with Ayre there was definite FATIGUE after a while.
                I don't think that at these levels any brand can win 'hands down".
                BTW, as for the Ayre vs Classe comparison mentioned above, it is extremely important to mention the other gear used ( the cd source and the amplifiers) as these play a major role on getting the best of the item in test.
                Eliav
                The comparison made by Rebelman was with the Ax7e Ayre Integrated Amp versus the CP700 and the CA400 Mono blocks which is hardley a fair comparison.

                The Ayre K5xe is a seperate pre-amp with better power supplies and circuitry (rated Class A by Stereophile). The Ayre pre-amp in combination with my Classe CA201 amp when played using balanced connections on my Marantz SA14 player through my N802's was superior in terms of resolution, sound stage width and depth and oveall musicality as compared to either my existing Classe CP47.5 preamp or the new Delta Series CP500.

                This comparison was done over a week of extensive listening and my wife and I agree that the Ayre is smoother without any fatigue factor.

                Bottom line is I ordered the Ayre and have traded in my Classe CP47.5.
                Greg Gale

                Main System:
                802 D2
                Classe CA2300
                Ayre K5XEMP
                Graham Slee Reflex M
                Esoteric X-05 SACD
                VPI Classic 3
                Dynavector X20x2
                Oppo BDP 95

                Comment

                • sikoniko
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 2299

                  #53
                  Originally posted by Greg Gale
                  Bottom line is I ordered the Ayre and have traded in my Classe CP47.5.
                  Congrats!
                  I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

                  Comment

                  • Eliav
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2005
                    • 484

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Greg Gale
                    The comparison made by Rebelman was with the Ax7e Ayre Integrated Amp versus the CP700 and the CA400 Mono blocks which is hardley a fair comparison.

                    The Ayre K5xe is a seperate pre-amp with better power supplies and circuitry (rated Class A by Stereophile). The Ayre pre-amp in combination with my Classe CA201 amp when played using balanced connections on my Marantz SA14 player through my N802's was superior in terms of resolution, sound stage width and depth and oveall musicality as compared to either my existing Classe CP47.5 preamp or the new Delta Series CP500.

                    This comparison was done over a week of extensive listening and my wife and I agree that the Ayre is smoother without any fatigue factor.

                    Bottom line is I ordered the Ayre and have traded in my Classe CP47.5.
                    If you're happy - that's what matters, congrats and enjoy !
                    Eliav
                    :T Socrat

                    Comment

                    • RebelMan
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 3139

                      #55
                      About a month after I started this thread, the Ayre dealer I had previously worked with announced that he was finally going to make the K-5xe available exclusively for my evaluation but there was a catch. He would only have it for one particular week before it would have to go back to the manufacturer.

                      I decided to entertain his offer and brought home the C-5xe CD player, K-5xe pre-amplifier and V-5xe power amplifier. I pit the all Ayre system against the same all Classe' system used before which consisted of the CDP-202 CD player, CP-700 pre-amplifier and a pair of CA-M400 monoblocks. A pair of 803S speakers were used during the four day demonstration and both systems were "level matched".

                      This second tour of duty with my original Classe’ system and a more expensive Ayre system not only confirmed my first impressions of Ayre but permanently cemented them. At the time I conducted this rematch I was armed with a slew of comments to make but I quietly refrained simply because I saw no point in beating an already dead horse. However, given that this thread has raised its little head I will add that not only did the K-5xe and supporting ensemble fail to impress I found it inferior to the AX-7e.

                      Too often people are led to believe separates and higher prices translate into a better sounding product. While in general this is true it is not always the case and I discovered this with Ayre. The AX-7e is a genuine sleeper powerhouse that delivers fantastic bang for the buck. Besting the price performance ratio of the K-5xe and V-5xe by a significant margin. Had I not had the opportunity to hear the AX-7e prior to my encounter with the K-5xe and V-5xe I would have had an even lower opinion of Ayre's combination than I did.

                      Given this I still enjoyed the time I spent with both systems and both systems do in fact sound quite good. More importantly I found (as predicted) that the AX-7e can certainly go toe-to-toe with its big brother and it can stand taller too. Consider the price difference between both systems and the choice is very clear.

                      When I returned the equipment back to the dealer I told him that it finally made sense to me why he doesn't stock the K-5xe on his showroom floor. All he did was smile!
                      "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                      Comment

                      • Greg Gale
                        Member
                        • Nov 2006
                        • 49

                        #56
                        Your comparison is against what you currently have in your system which is definitely a step up against the Ayre especially when you consider the price point and the fact you are running your system with mono blocks rated at 400 watts a piece. The CP700 is also in a different price league versus the K-5xe.

                        To make a fair comparison against Ayre you should be running their K-1xe and thier monoblock amps versus the Classe and then it would be more meaningful.

                        Also it is very important the amp and pre-amp is broken in sufficiently with 100 plus of playing time before you really compare what the component can do.

                        In my system, with comparing (sound level matched) versus a CP500 Classe running into my CA201 Power Amp using my Marantz SA14 player as a source, the combination with the K-5xe was more musical than with the CP500 or my current Classe 47.5 pre-amp through my N802's.

                        The dealer who I have known for 20 years (he is also the owner of the store) has N802D and is currently running a K-5xe along with the Ayre V-1xe and has also compared to the new Classe (CP500 and CA2200) and also finds them more musical.

                        I have no doubt the system you are running sounds wonderful but the price point of your current components is well above what I am willing to pay.

                        I do appreciate Classe gear as I have been living with it for the last 6 years and still plan to keep my ampflier.

                        Good listening.
                        Greg Gale

                        Main System:
                        802 D2
                        Classe CA2300
                        Ayre K5XEMP
                        Graham Slee Reflex M
                        Esoteric X-05 SACD
                        VPI Classic 3
                        Dynavector X20x2
                        Oppo BDP 95

                        Comment

                        • Magnolia
                          Junior Member
                          • Feb 2007
                          • 1

                          #57
                          This testing is exceptionally flawed!

                          Originally posted by RebelMan
                          About a month after I started this thread, the Ayre dealer I had previously worked with announced that he was finally going to make the K-5xe available exclusively for my evaluation but there was a catch. He would only have it for one particular week before it would have to go back to the manufacturer.

                          I decided to entertain his offer and brought home the C-5xe CD player, K-5xe pre-amplifier and V-5xe power amplifier. I pit the all Ayre system against the same all Classe' system used before which consisted of the CDP-202 CD player, CP-700 pre-amplifier and a pair of CA-M400 monoblocks. A pair of 803S speakers were used during the four day demonstration and both systems were "level matched".

                          This second tour of duty with my original Classe’ system and a more expensive Ayre system not only confirmed my first impressions of Ayre but permanently cemented them. At the time I conducted this rematch I was armed with a slew of comments to make but I quietly refrained simply because I saw no point in beating an already dead horse. However, given that this thread has raised its little head I will add that not only did the K-5xe and supporting ensemble fail to impress I found it inferior to the AX-7e.

                          Too often people are led to believe separates and higher prices translate into a better sounding product. While in general this is true it is not always the case and I discovered this with Ayre. The AX-7e is a genuine sleeper powerhouse that delivers fantastic bang for the buck. Besting the price performance ratio of the K-5xe and V-5xe by a significant margin. Had I not had the opportunity to hear the AX-7e prior to my encounter with the K-5xe and V-5xe I would have had an even lower opinion of Ayre's combination than I did.

                          Given this I still enjoyed the time I spent with both systems and both systems do in fact sound quite good. More importantly I found (as predicted) that the AX-7e can certainly go toe-to-toe with its big brother and it can stand taller too. Consider the price difference between both systems and the choice is very clear.

                          When I returned the equipment back to the dealer I told him that it finally made sense to me why he doesn't stock the K-5xe on his showroom floor. All he did was smile!


                          First, let me state that I have found both of these 2-channel lines exceptional. Second, let me state that I am in the process of possibly moving from an Ayre AX7e to a Classe CP-700 preamp + power amp manufacturer who will remain nameless and is not Ayre or Classe (cost of this demo amp is $2000, it's brand is irrelevant for this discussion). Having explored both lines thoroughly, I would remain with Ayre except that I have had a personal dispute with Ayre's USA Sales Manager, Steve. And that's all I will state about that. However, the dispute with Steve has tainted my ability to remain with Ayre, coupled with the fact that I also do not hold their local dealer in high regard, so I have looked at other options for a separates solution. It appears I may make the move to Classe (for a preamp) but I would remain with Ayre if the two issues stated above did not exist. My original plan had included moving to their new mono amps.

                          Keeping in mind that total system synergy is EVERYTHING, here's why the comparison referenced in this thread is flawed and why Ayre has been placed at a disadvantage (even taking into consideration the Ayre separates demo mentioned in the later passages of this thread):

                          1) Ayre and B&W speakers are NOT a complimentary marriage. If a more neutral or revealing loudspeaker had been used (i.e., ProAc, Wilson Benesch, or Wilson Audio Sophias), and matched with appropriate components including cables, the Ayre AX7e and Ayre separates would have won hands down. Their new mono amps would have killed...no contest.

                          2) And, Kimber Kables? Not a synergistic match for the Ayre AX7e or the Ayre separates. Or the Ayre mono amps. Ayre components are very cable dependent to reflect their best performance, and if an individual does not place a value on cables, they should avoid ANY high-end lines such as Ayre or Classe. The preferable cables should have included either Ayre or Cardas cabling and power cords (if Cardas, Cardas Golden Cross or Golden Reference).

                          Having stated all of this, I still will likely move to the Classe CP-700 which is a fine preamp matched with the power amp I will likely own. Is it better than a match I could have made through the purchase of Ayre gear? No. But I can no longer support Ayre. I will state that I have the utmost respect for their founder, Charles Hansen, and Michael in technical support. But, their US Sales Manager just ruins the entire equation for me.

                          So, if you are considering these two manufacturers, make sure you are comparing apples to apples, and using appropriate synergistic methods. I also think it is interesting that this original thread comparison began with two very different pieces of equipment, and significantly different price points.

                          Keep in mind I am a Classe supporter and will be a new Classe owner soon. And, I also will likely keep the Ayre AX7e for a secondary 2-channel system.

                          Comment

                          • RebelMan
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Mar 2005
                            • 3139

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Magnolia
                            Keeping in mind that total system synergy is EVERYTHING, here's why the comparison referenced in this thread is flawed and why Ayre has been placed at a disadvantage (even taking into consideration the Ayre separates demo mentioned in the later passages of this thread).

                            1) Ayre and B&W speakers are NOT a complimentary marriage. If a more neutral or revealing loudspeaker had been used (i.e., ProAc, Wilson Benesch, or Wilson Audio Sophias), and matched with appropriate components including cables, the Ayre AX7e and Ayre separates would have won hands down. Their new mono amps would have killed...no contest.
                            One cannot dispute that system synergy is everything. The title of this thread (B&W 800's Better with Ayre or Classe'?) and the comments that followed support the foundation of the synergistic principle. Nevertheless, the comparisons made between both Ayre and Classe' brands were methodically executed and the results telling. The statement "Ayre and B&W speakers are NOT a complimentary marriage." posted above would suggest an additional endorsement of these findings.

                            2) And, Kimber Kables? Not a synergistic match for the Ayre AX7e or the Ayre separates. Or the Ayre mono amps. Ayre components are very cable dependent to reflect their best performance, and if an individual does not place a value on cables, they should avoid ANY high-end lines such as Ayre or Classe. The preferable cables should have included either Ayre or Cardas cabling and power cords (if Cardas, Cardas Golden Cross or Golden Reference).
                            Personal bias? It is possible that the type of cables used in an evaluation such as this can make a difference. This is of course assuming a dichotomy of choices were made in the selection process, but this was far from the case here. The balanced HERO's from Kimber Kable were sufficiently competent for their class and appropriate to use with both hardware candidates in this comparison.

                            So, if you are considering these two manufacturers, make sure you are comparing apples to apples, and using appropriate synergistic methods. I also think it is interesting that this original thread comparison began with two very different pieces of equipment, and significantly different price points.
                            If this was an attempt to evaluate two different system synergies I would be inclined to agree. Unfortunately, the point seems lost on the reader. This evaluation wasn't a platform designed to put down the Ayre nor was it an attempt to inflate Classe'. It was simply an attempt to discover what works best with B&W 800 Series loudspeakers which I believe is why most of us are here reading these boards and participating in this forum in particular.

                            I can't honestly say that an all Ayre system including a pair of Wilson WATT Puppy 8's, the D-1xe CD/DVD player, the K-1xe pre-amplifier, the MX-R monoblocks, Ayre interconnects and Myrtle wood blocks would "kill" the B&W and Classe' system that was assembled for my evaluation. Reason is I haven't had the opportunity to fairly compare each system in a side-by-side shoot out and come to the same conclusion. However, I can say that I have heard such an (Ayre) configuration but the experience was for me somewhat forgettable.
                            "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                            Comment

                            • Staxguy
                              Junior Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 1

                              #59
                              B&W 800's

                              Hey RebelMan,

                              The title of your thread is "B&W 800's Better with Ayre or Classe'?" and yet you are using B&W 803S, a totally different beast, in a much lower league.

                              At one time, B&W made a wonderful loudspeaker: The Matrix 800. Then, you have the much smaller but newer, and "trendier:" Signature 800. Lately, you have the 800 Diamond. All are good 800 loudspeakers, I would say, each deserve great source electronics, with some power and current capability.

                              Now, even with the 803S, why you would choose to use a "run-of-the-mill" Ayre integrated amp, like you have, and then compare it to Classe CP700 and the CA400 Mono blocks, I have no idea...

                              It would have been a much more interesting comparison had you actually used a nice B&W "800", say the most recent Nautilus Diamond, and then coupled it with your Classe plus and top-line Ayre electronics.

                              Now, I guess, having an 803s, you consider it an "800" as it is part of the "800 series", or more accurately an "80x", let's say.

                              Personally, I don't understand the "rasison d'etre" of the 803 and 804 models, aside from price: you already have two "reasonable" models, the 800 diamond and 802 diamond for medium/smaller rooms, and previously, the Nautilus 801 for larger rooms, or mixing/mastering requirements.

                              These (803/804) share very little, aside from the tweeter tube arrangement, with the original Nautilus design, and leave out the critical mid-range arrangement that the 800/801/802 models share. I wonder why you aren't using "lower end" Classe amps with your 803s: there seems to be a price mismatch between what you have invested in amplification in speakers, don't you think?

                              Again quite a few hi-fi stores have the 800 diamonds hooked up to CP700 and CP400 pair that you have used. It's a pity you couldn't have done the same, and then used the KX-R / MX-R on the Ayre side of things, which would have been the most natural and beneficial comparison, sonically... even though the Omega series (Omega Preamplifier MKIII / Omega Mono Amplifier) are Classe's benchmark, and high-end, not many dealerships pair them with the B&W's, perhaps as there are other performance and higher price-point speakers than B&W's that Omega Series customers would also be interested in. Oh well. Likely, the Ayre MX-R / KX-R would hold up to the "Omega's", but I haven't heard them in direct comparison. The market's the market.

                              Best Regards,
                              Staxguy

                              References:

                              We all know it's impossible to reproduce live music. An obvious statement, no doubt, and one that holds every audiophile hostage to the never-ending search. As a musician, I find the situation especially frustrating. The constant reminder of live vs reproduced makes living with an audio system a serious compromise, regardless of price or quality.

                              If, as some would have it, Audiophilia nervosa is like the dark night of reason, then certain audio epiphanies must necessarily stand out from a distance, like a grove of trees 20 miles away thrown into stark relief by prairie lightning. And make no mistake that Audiophilia is a disease---I treasure the memory of the first time my wife and I heard Quad ESLs with tubes far more than the memory of my first kiss (although not more, I hasten to add in case Joan is reading this review, than the memory of our first kiss).

                              I once got a fortune cookie that read, "Ask and ye shall receive. This includes trouble." A few years back, shopping for speakers, I inquired about reviewing the B&W Nautilus 802, but it was too soon after Wes Phillips had reviewed the Nautilus 801 for Stereophile. So, other auditioning and reviewing (and buying) other speakers, I asked again, and again was met with deferral. Recently, out of the blue, B&W offered the Nautilus 802—then, in the next breath, asked if I'd rather have the Signature 800s.

                              Comment

                              • Skyblue
                                Senior Member
                                • Jun 2009
                                • 504

                                #60
                                B&W 800 diamond on ayre kx-r and mx-r could potentially rock
                                B&W 800 Diamond, B&W805S, B&W DB1, Classe SSP 800, DIY Icepower ASX2 600W monos, Ayre QB9, JPlay.

                                Comment

                                • ShadowZA
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2006
                                  • 1098

                                  #61
                                  This is an old thread. RebelMan's equipment as per his profile now reads:

                                  Speakers
                                  Mains: B&W 800D
                                  Center: B&W HTM1D
                                  Surrounds: B&W SCMS
                                  Subwoofer: B&W ASW825

                                  Two Channel Front-End
                                  Source: Sonos PCM
                                  Pre-Amplifier: Classe' SSP-800 Pre
                                  Power Amplifier: Classe' CA-M400 Monoblocks

                                  Multi-Channel Front-End
                                  Source: PS3 PCM/Bitstream
                                  Processor: Classe' SSP-800 Pro
                                  Power Amplifier: Classe' CA-5100 Multi-Channel

                                  Portable Music Player
                                  Apple iPhone and iPod Shuffle

                                  Display
                                  Pioneer PDP-6010FD


                                  Hope that helps.

                                  Comment

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