804's with ??? amplification

[Loner]

If I were to stumble upon a great set of used 804's (N or S series), would my Denon 3803 drive them well or would I need a separate amp? How about 803's?

Thanks folks.......

[grit]

No, not in a million years. I tried this. Had a dealer tell me my 85 watt per channel Denon could drive the 803's I was buying. When I got them home, I did an A/B with my Boston Acoustics, and quite frankly, the Boston's sounded better. We all know that doesn't make ANY sense. I ended up returning the 803's and buying some nice Rotel gear and the 703's, which sounds TONS better than the Boston's.

So, you'll definitely need a separate amp. I'd look at the Rotel 1080 amp at a minimum.

[jayskumar]

How many watts would be necessary to appropriately power the 804's. The specs say 50-200W. How many would be reasonable?

[JKalman]

Try this site: SPL Calculator :T

[JKalman]

The 3803 is 110 wpc (aprox.). The 804's sensitivity is 90dB (aprox.). It depends on how far back you will sit, but unless it is some crazy number the Denon should be able to drive them or the 803s, it just depends on if you like the two paired together.


grit,

I preferred the sound of the 703s to the 803Ss. Is it possible that you liked the 703's sound better than the 803S's sound?

[nyny]

If you are planning to keep the Denon 3803, then I would suggest getting the 703s because 3803 is not going to bring the best out of the 804S/803S.

Based on my own A/B testing of 804S/803S and 703, I prefer the sound of 804S/803S due to tighter bass and much more open sound. However, I did noticed that the 800 series do need ample and high quality power. I tested the 804S/803S with the following amps/integrated: Rotel RB-1080; Krell 400x; Bryston 4B SST and Jeff Rowland Concerto Integrated.

The Rotel and the Krell sounded decent, but had a bit of trouble controlling the bass. THe Bryston had no trouble controlling the bass and provide the speakers with ample power to create some wonderful sound. I would have been very happy with the Bryston 4B SST have I not demo the Jeff Rowland Integrated. Although it has less power per channel than the Bryston, it still handles the B&W with ease and it just sound that much more musical than the Bryston.

Anyway, above is just my observation. In short, the Denon is not going to cut it for the 804S/803S. When properly driven, I believe you will enjoy the 804S/803S a lot more than the 703s.

[Loner]

Thanks guys. Using the SPL URL, it appears the 3803 would be fine, however, I know what you're saying about the B&W's being power hungry.

I was hoping that at least the 804's would work well with my 3803 - from a power standpoint. There's a couple deals locally re used 804's and 803's that I was looking at. I also would get an 800 series center speaker also.

If I get the 703's, I'd have to get an 800 center since the HTM7 doesn't match well at all. This is how I got started looking at used 803's/804's in the first place.

[grit]

The 3803 is 110 wpc (aprox.). The 804's sensitivity is 90dB (aprox.). It depends on how far back you will sit, but unless it is some crazy number the Denon should be able to drive them or the 803s, it just depends on if you like the two paired together.


grit,

I preferred the sound of the 703s to the 803Ss. Is it possible that you liked the 703's sound better than the 803S's sound?

No, I A/B'ed the 703's and 804's and 803's. Picked the 803's hands down. Liked the 804's and would probaby pick them (I have a smaller room) if I could go and do it again. Just when I got 'em home and got to compare to my old Boston's, it just sounded lifeless. In fact, I only compared them because when I listened to them for the first time, I was so unhappy and thought something was wrong. In all fairness, it could have been the CD source (a Denon CD player) too causing the problem I suppose. But it occurred with every CD i played.

[audioqueso]

You'll be able to HEAR the speakers. It'll play, but no where near to what it should sound like.

[JKalman]

Thanks guys. Using the SPL URL, it appears the 3803 would be fine, however, I know what you're saying about the B&W's being power hungry.

I was hoping that at least the 804's would work well with my 3803 - from a power standpoint. There's a couple deals locally re used 804's and 803's that I was looking at. I also would get an 800 series center speaker also.

If I get the 703's, I'd have to get an 800 center since the HTM7 doesn't match well at all. This is how I got started looking at used 803's/804's in the first place.

I would see if you can bring your amp to the person/place where you plan on purchasing the speakers, and test the 3803 out. Better safe than sorry.

[JKalman]

No, I A/B'ed the 703's and 804's and 803's. Picked the 803's hands down. Liked the 804's and would probaby pick them (I have a smaller room) if I could go and do it again. Just when I got 'em home and got to compare to my old Boston's, it just sounded lifeless. In fact, I only compared them because when I listened to them for the first time, I was so unhappy and thought something was wrong. In all fairness, it could have been the CD source (a Denon CD player) too causing the problem I suppose. But it occurred with every CD i played.

Through a Bryston amp I liked the 703 sound better than the 803S, but I preferred the 803D and up to the 703. I didn't test out the 805S unfortunately. The 703s seemed more lively sounding in comparison to the 803 IMO, the dealer said that a lot of people have made the same statement when comparing the two. It was a nice test setup, they had it set up so I could just push a button and switch back and forth between the speakers while listening to music. It would be a bit harder for me to tell the difference between the 803S, 804S, and 703 if I couldn't push a button to switch back and forth, considering how short auditory memory lasts. With speakers that soared in price level above the 703 (like the 802D and 800D) I could tell the difference immediately without pushing buttons back and forth, which is why I traded in my 7 series surround system (plus a lump of cash) for a pair of 802D speakers.

Nothing wrong with a high end Denon for CD playing IMO, though lower end stuff probably isn't great. I'm using a Denon DVD-5910, which has two Burr-Brown 1792 chips in dual differential mode for stereo playback and three 1792s for surround playback, the same chips used in the Ayre C-5xe. The only thing you need to keep in mind is to turn all the extra electronics off when playing music, i.e. -- shut off video circuitry, display, etc., then it competes with hardware manufacturers twice its price hands down (likely because they are all using older DACs pretty much). I'm considering getting the unit modded, but right now it isn't an issue, my next important purchase needs to be a 60 inch SXRD Sony (God I wish I could splurge on that Sony Ruby), so I can finally get rid of my 36" XBR CRT. If I don't mod the 5910 I will likely buy the Ayre C-5xe instead for stereo music and just use the Denon for movies and as a surround source.

[gerardhn]

Jk,

I agree with your dealer. 703 against 803S should make a world of difference. Here is something wrong ... You dont need an A/B switch for remembering....

Gerard

[Claude D D]

Thanks guys. Using the SPL URL, it appears the 3803 would be fine, however, I know what you're saying about the B&W's being power hungry.

I was hoping that at least the 804's would work well with my 3803 - from a power standpoint. There's a couple deals locally re used 804's and 803's that I was looking at. I also would get an 800 series center speaker also.

If I get the 703's, I'd have to get an 800 center since the HTM7 doesn't match well at all. This is how I got started looking at used 803's/804's in the first place.

I wouldn't say the 804's are power hungry. They just perform better with higher quality amplification. Running a pair of 804's on a Denon 3803 is kinda like putting Z rated tires on a mini-van. It won't do any harm(well it might tax the amp section a bit) but you won't realized the full performance benefits either. :T

[nyny]

Claude, nice analogy! Couldn't have said it better myself. :T

[chinets]

For 804's and 803's you do need a stronger amp of at least 200 watts to make these speakers sing. I had the 703's and performed well with adequate amp. but with 804's or 803's they need a hungry amp. The Rotel 1090/1095 combo for 5 channel is sensational with 803 or 804. Rotel 1085 amp with 703's is excellent but not the other way round as the 8 series need mor umph!!!!!! This is honest opinion.

[jayskumar]

This question was bugging me a lot. So yesterday I went to my local B&W store and asked the salesman what type of amp would be reasonable for these speakes. He said that the wattage didn't matter as long as the quality of the signal was good. He demonstrated with a Naim 50 watt amplifier. It sounded amazing in their small demo room. After hearing that, I think for an apartment size, it wouldn't be necessary to have a lot of power.

[Mark_C.]

I swear people on this board are obsessed with numbers and love repeating myths. I'll just keep repeating myself: The Nautilus 804 is rated at 89dB, middle of the pack in efficiency. There is no absolute law that says you can't power such a speaker with 100 watts, or less, and get the most out of the speaker. It can play louder with more power, but who's to say that is better except the listener. Quality power is much more important than the amount of power. I ran my 804s for years with a Classe integrated amp rated at 100 watts per channel. Truly a wonderful combination.

[weijst]

I agree with Mark C. Especially the "Quality power is much more important than the amount of power" part. I powered N804's with a RMB1075 and was very sattisfied to say the least!
Could I have gotten more out of them with more powerfull amp? Probably, but than again, they would probably have sounded even better with a 'even more powerfull amp'. So the question rises: when to stop. Especially when you remember the rule of 'diminishing returns'...

[PewterTA]

I tried the 804/803s with the Denon 3803 and with the RMB-1095/1080 and the difference is night and day (at the same SPL -- checked with Radio shack meter)...

The clarity difference and the ability to hear sounds that are just not there when they are hooked up to the Denon directly is amazing.

These speakers, while no, not extremely power hungry, do like power and lots of it (as they say).

I think for the mean time the 804/3s will sound "okay." I would say that they won't be any more impressive than 703s as a good example.

However, once you get a good amp down the road, you'll be able to unleash the 800 series goodness that everyone loves.

So in my opinion, if you can get a good deal on them, go for it and just live with the sub-par quality (which will still be decent) until you can get a good amp and then get into audio bliss.

[Wayne E]

Running a pair of 804's on a Denon 3803 is kinda like putting Z rated tires on a mini-van.

What's wrong with "Z" rated tires on a mini-van? :B :B

[JKalman]

Jk,

I agree with your dealer. 703 against 803S should make a world of difference. Here is something wrong ... You dont need an A/B switch for remembering....

Gerard

Actually the dealer was saying that a lot of people preferred the sound of the 703s to the sound of the 803Ss when comparing them.

There just wasn't a tremendous difference in sound IMO, not like there was with the Diamond speakers...

[Loner]

"So in my opinion, if you can get a good deal on them, go for it and just live with the sub-par quality (which will still be decent) until you can get a good amp and then get into audio bliss."

That's a great idea, especially if they could sound as good as the 703's. Another possiblility is to just get the 703's and an 800 series center to match any future 8XX series mains.

"I swear people on this board are obsessed with numbers and love repeating myths. I'll just keep repeating myself: The Nautilus 804 is rated at 89dB, middle of the pack in efficiency. There is no absolute law that says you can't power such a speaker with 100 watts, or less, and get the most out of the speaker. It can play louder with more power, but who's to say that is better except the listener. Quality power is much more important than the amount of power."

Thanks for all the info!

Is one series 'needier' than another when it comes to clean power? i.e.) N, S or D series? How good are the 800 matrix I, II or III series.

I ask too many dang questions.......! 8)