803s, rotel 1095, REL Stentor combo lacks good midbass

[stewfoo]

Gear
Fronts: 803s
Center: Htm1
Surround: ccm80 or ccm817
PRE:rotel 1068
amp: rotel 1098
sub: REL Stentor III

I have read all of the threads about B&W lacking bass. I would agree with this....kinda. I love the accuracy and crispness of the highs, which make it all worth it. But, I got the 803s' over the 804s' because of the increased frequency response at the low end.
Is it that the rotel gear is too weak for the 803s to deliver bass? I tried bi-amping the 1095 with the 803s..... wow what a difference at High volume...
I am just confused. I spoke to the people who sold me the gear in Arizona.. they said to crossover the sub at 60-80hz. When I spoke to the REL/Sumiko rep he almost choked and said that I should be crossing over closer to 28hz. If I do this, the surrounds, which I currently intend to run as "Small" will leave a huge gap of missing frequency response. Or, is the surround info redirected to the large speakers?


Any help would be appreciated
Stew

[misterdoggy]

They don't have a 1098 Amp. Its' 1095 or 1090 or 1080 or 1070.

[stewfoo]

1095, my bad. Thanks

[stewfoo]

Any help on this one?

[jlee]

Any help on this one?

OMG, you are using a stentor with a 1095? That is a huge mistake. You might as well use a Storm III or Strata III if you have a 1095. I used to have a 1095.. when I got my Stadium III, I realized how much the 1095 was preventing the Stadium from realizing it's potential. Remember, when connecting your Stentor III in hi-level, the signal FIRST passes through the 1095... if you look at past reviews and freq. response charts of the 1095, it rolls off the low freq. pretty fast... so that by the time the signal gets to the Stentor III, the signal is so filtered that the Stentor III cannot be fully put to best use.

What surprises me is that the 1095/1080/1090 all have what I refer to as a midbass hump... so I'm surprised that your setup is lacking midbass. If anything, I thought it would lack LOW bass.

With 803s, set to large in the processor 1068... the sub ITSELF should be crossed at around A4 or around 28Hz... maybe A3 27Hz or A5 30Hz, you will have to play with it depending on your room. Definitely not 60-80Hz. I assume the mains are connected hi-level to the stentor.

Now, the stentor also takes LFE at lo-level... Set setting on the sub to either "2" or "4" which means it uses it's internal crossover for the 803 (hi-level), and uses the processor crossover for the center and surrounds and LFE (lo-level).

Now for the center and surrounds... u set the crossover for those IN THE PROCESSOR... In that case, I would set rear to cross over where the rear speakers start to roll-off (check the -6dB specs). For center, I would set to small and set crossover to 40Hz.

Positioning is probably what is causing the lack of midbass. At louder volumes, the 1095 starts to sound compressed. If you want a really good 5 channel amp, the Classe CAV-180 can be had for about $2500 used on audiogon. It puts out 360W at 4Ohms, which is actually higher than the 330 or so the 1095 puts out at 4Ohms.

[bigburner]

I've read advice before in the HTGuide Forum about setting the crossover at 28Hz. It seemed wrong to me because the owner's manual for B&W subs recommends setting the crossover at about 80Hz (unless you're lucky enough to own high-end mains like 802/801/800). So I tried an experiment which I recommend that you guys try. Set your sub so that it plays only 28Hz and below and put on a nice bassy track. Then turn off your main speakers so that all you are listening to is the sub. Listen to the sounds coming out of the sub for a minute or two and then ask yourself "does it make sense setting my sub at 28Hz"? Then try the experiment again with the crossover set at 80Hz. Setting it at 28Hz seemed totally nonsensical to me, almost no point in having a sub, but I'm not an expert so I'd like to know what you guys think.

[stewfoo]

First of all, thanks alot Jlee for your lengthy response. I understand your response to the stentor with the 1095. But, the line has to be drawn somewhere. I am already $34k into this system(including the custom entertainment system that I had made.) I am truly disappointed with the Rotel gear for the reason you discussed, as well as the fact that it is destroying my video when used as a switcher. My local dealer has a deal where you can turn in your gear within 1 year and receive full value so long as you buy something twice as expensive. They also sell Classe So, I am probably gonna go that route. Is the CAV- 180 in the new classe line? What is the new cost of that? Thanks for your help. Stew

[jlee]

First of all, thanks alot Jlee for your lengthy response. I understand your response to the stentor with the 1095. But, the line has to be drawn somewhere. I am already $34k into this system(including the custom entertainment system that I had made.) I am truly disappointed with the Rotel gear for the reason you discussed, as well as the fact that it is destroying my video when used as a switcher. My local dealer has a deal where you can turn in your gear within 1 year and receive full value so long as you buy something twice as expensive. They also sell Classe So, I am probably gonna go that route. Is the CAV- 180 in the new classe line? What is the new cost of that? Thanks for your help. Stew

Yes, the Rotel, although ok as a switcher for XBOX, Sat. TV, and other minor sources, should not be used as a switcher for your DVD player. I have a direct connection for my DVD player. It does make a difference in the "snow" and "grain" and also the overall color balance when going direct instead of through the Rotel processor.

The CAV-180 is part of the older line. It was one of the best values around for a 5 channel amp that was perfectly capable of 2 channel hifi as well... it's been replaced by an $8000 CAV-5200... which is very nice, but I feel overpriced... other option is to go 5 CAM-200's... or 3 CAM-200's and 1 CA-201 for the rear... lots of those on audiogon available used.

[jlee]

I've read advice before in the HTGuide Forum about setting the crossover at 28Hz. It seemed wrong to me because the owner's manual for B&W subs recommends setting the crossover at about 80Hz (unless you're lucky enough to own high-end mains like 802/801/800). So I tried an experiment which I recommend that you guys try. Set your sub so that it plays only 28Hz and below and put on a nice bassy track. Then turn off your main speakers so that all you are listening to is the sub. Listen to the sounds coming out of the sub for a minute or two and then ask yourself "does it make sense setting my sub at 28Hz"? Then try the experiment again with the crossover set at 80Hz. Setting it at 28Hz seemed totally nonsensical to me, almost no point in having a sub, but I'm not an expert so I'd like to know what you guys think.

Do not set your B&W sub at 28Hz... my recommendation was for the REL only. The way the stentor works is that it has 2 connections... 1 for "hi-level" and 1 for "lo-level."

The hi-level basically takes the same signal from the amp at a high resistance (so it draws very little current), puts it through a crossover such that the sub only plays to the point where the main speaker it's supporting drops off. So, in other words, if the -6dB point of the main speakers is around 30 Hz, then setting the crossover to around 27-28-30 Hz (room dependent) will essentially make the response curve around 30Hz flat and the new roll off point will be 11Hz in the case of the stentor. So it is like "adding a driver" to the main speaker making it a VERY FULL RANGE speaker.

The B&W sub is a completely different beast and you should get the proper advice from your dealer.

[stewfoo]

OK.... I really don't know what's worse... being addicted to drugs orbeing addicted to audio. The Worse thing I've ever done was enter that B&W/Classe/Rotel Dealer in downtown London when I was on vacation...Because, now I know the difference. I think that I will look at the Classe- 5200... But, will the fact that I have a rotel 1068 negate any benefit??

[jlee]

OK.... I really don't know what's worse... being addicted to drugs orbeing addicted to audio. The Worse thing I've ever done was enter that B&W/Classe/Rotel Dealer in downtown London when I was on vacation...Because, now I know the difference. I think that I will look at the Classe- 5200... But, will the fact that I have a rotel 1068 negate any benefit??

Kind of... I've got a 1098 and I know that the 1098 and the N804 are now the weakpoint in my system.

THe 1068 won't negate the benefits (it will still allow you to hear a significant improvement over the 1095), but at the same time, won't let you experience the FULL benefit of the 5200. I've had a 1098 paired with RMB-1095, RB-1080, RB-1090, Classe CAM-200, and Classe CAM-350... the 1098 allowed me to hear the differences in the amps, but now that I'm at the 350's, I can't help but think the 1098 is holding it back a bit. Even on paper, the 1098 is lacking in some departments, most noticeably the weak 1.2V max nominal output. It makes noises when the volume is increased or decreased... basically, it is a typical Rotel product... awesome value for money, awesome "entry level high end" or "top of the line mid end" :B , but lacks the refinement of the big boys.

The preamp is very important, arguably a bit more important than the power amp. Doesn't make sense to spend $8000 on the amp and only $1700 on the preamp. If you're gonna drop 8k, might as well drop 4.5k on the Classe SSP-300. Actually, if you can live without some of the fancy features, the Classe SSP-60 is supposedly more or less the same as the SSP-300... it's essentially an SSP-600 ($6500) without the screen and video transcoding. SSP-60 listed at $5000, but offered balanced inputs and can be found used for a decent price once in a while.

Honestly though, I would just get the SSP-300 if I were you and be done with it. If u can afford 8k for the amp, spend the 4.5 on the pre/pro.

[tboooe]

stwefoo, i know what you mean. I only had my 1080, 805S setup about month before i heard parasound amps and th 803D. This system was supposed to last me at least a year. Instead it lasted 30 days LOL!!! Looks like I am going to change amps, add a new preamp, a musical fidelity cd with tube output of course...its a good thing that i am no where close to being able to afford the 803D or else i would find some way to buy it (there goes the daughter's college fund). Either way, my wife is giong to kill me!

This hobby is very dangerous when you get on the slippery slope of upgrading. The pursuit of musical nirvana is elusive and expensive but soooo much fun!