A balanced system - 803s therapy from those who've moved up B&W's line

[zilla]

I've gone from the 600 to the 800 series and have a hodge podge of speakers now. I've made the best of it but have hit a wall. This is going to be lengthy but I'll keep it as brief as I can (not one of my gifts) and appreciate the assistance of any who run the gauntlet.

The primary dilemma is that I've bought speakers that I don't think I'll ever be able to afford proper front end equipment for in the 803s. On a reps recommendation and my eagerness when I purchased my 803s, I went with the Rotel 1095 thinking I'd be doing the same thing (delivering 400 watts) using 2 amp channels per main from the 200wpc 1095 as I would if I bought the 1090 at 380wpc. I got fairly pricey ic cables made to split the pre-out signal to the 2 amp inputs, 2 full runs of speaker cables all of which put me into about $1500 in cables, Almost $2k into the amp and everybody here knows what the speakers cost. Lotta money for me.

I had an LCR60 and planned to replace it with an HTM3s but that hasn't materialized due to funds. The LCR couldn't keep up with the mains so I spoke to my dealer and he said I could use a set of Biwire cables (2 full runs joined at the amp end) that I had lying around from my last system and run the pair fof 602s from a single channel on the amp without overstressing either.

Yes I'm prepared to be flamed for running this through a Yamaha RXV 1400 but I have been waiting for the playing field to level w/the lastest codecs before making another premature or poor decision on a receiver/pre/pro. It looks like that may have happened with either the Marantz 8002, 8003, or the New Onkyo Pro PR-SC885P or Integra 9.9. I really like the "adjustable per channel x/over on the Onkyo & Integra which I think may help me but it's not available on the Marantz & my dealers stock went waaay down with me when he told me "I don't even think that exists". More like, "I don't carry one with that feature" would have been more appropriate. Obviously, no matter what, I need a new receiver or pre/pro regardless of everything else.

What I'm missing: Mid & upper bass. I've got gobs of low bass for movies etc. Yamaha room eq cleans it up a lot, and does a reasonably good job of timbre matching the menagerie of speakers but it feels like I'm missing a lot. The system performs adequately enough for movies but I'm talking about Geddy Lee's basslines & Neal Pearts tom toms. The weight in the lower harmonics of Dave Matthews guitar. Everything is too stringent on top and even in the mids. Bass guitar is not just a sound but a sensation if that makes sense. Taylor guitars sound has "weight" to it. I'm missing that as well as the fullness of the lower octaves of the other instruments & voices. I can always turn up the subs but that only results in too much on the bottom, it doesn't "fill in" what I'm missing.

FYI: It sounds better at louder volumes but I can't listen to everything at 0 -10db just to help balance out the sound. Kind of defeats the purpose of a volume knob and spooks the housepets.

The room is 20 x 30 x 8. Tile floors w/area rugs covering as much as I can. Pleanty of soft furniture, Bookshelves etc.

Biggest question: I can't sensibly afford Classe, Mac or Krell for the forseeable future due to an illness in the family. The Onkyo or Integra I could swing. The Marantz is a real stretch. Even if one of these is determined a good match for my mains...........

The clincher: I've read a lot that my amp simply will not do the 803s justice. The minimum I've seen recommended is the 1090 that I opted not to get at the onset. I can get one locally now for $1k which is a steal, but I can't swing that and the prepro. I'm tempted to get it regardless but the question that plagues me is "will I hear a difference" or just have a $1k lighter wallet?

What I'm looking for is advice from previous/current B&W owners that have worked their way up the line of products on where to put limited resources to do the most good. I'm trying to balance my overall system in a sensible fashion so no pieces are being "wasted" or over/underperforming. I'm disappointed to have spent so much, and not achieved better results, while I remain in a wait & "throw money at it" mode for the forseeable future. I know that's the natuer of this beast, I just jumped in over my head, or more precisely my wallet.

Should I step back down to my 600 series setup (604s, 602s, & LCR60) and sink money into better from end electronics than the Onkyo like the Marantz or look at Krell, Classse, MF? Or am I then overdoing what my speakers can achieve? Maybe even the new Pioneers with the Ice amps and get rid of the 1095. I know, I can't believe the words are coming from my fingertips-sounds like heresy, but I want opinions.

I've even thought of selling off the 803s and my various 600s to buy an all new system in a lower price range like the new SVS packages, or maybe listening to something in the Paradigm lines.

Any guidance is appreciated. I love this stuff but it's to the point it's not fun anymore. Help me make some moves so I can just settle down & enjoy some movies & music. ;x(

[wkhanna]

Pardon me if I missed it in your post, but what is the source component you are using for your music. I am guessing you are playing redbook CD's?

Your problem may not be your amps or speakers. Your source and/or pre-amp may be limiting the rest of your system. Just a guess, but can you give us more info on your complete system and type of format your music is on?

[sikoniko]

I've read good things about the new b&k pre over on AVS. I don't know how much it would cost though...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1065162

[zilla]

The source is part of the problem I'm sure. That is a given. I have several but only one is a dedicated cd player and it is inferior to say yhe least. When I bought the speakers, I had planned to move to a Rotel pre/pro and matching cd player but the 1068 and 1069 both came up short on features and bugs so I never upgraded the soucre.

Here are my current sources in ascending order of their performance

CD player: Yamaha from about 10 years ago
Panasonic RP 91k DVD player
HD player: Toshiba A1 (via analog w/4 sharc processors or coax)
Blu: Samsung BD-UP5000 Dual format (took some of the edge that remained in the highs on the A1)

I know, purists are rolling over in their graves. I understand I need a dedicated source but was trying to address an overall problem of lack of mid bass. I probably mis-stated a pint in the original post. When I wrote that the system is adequate with movies, I should have written that I'm not listening critically to movies so it doesn't trouble me as much. The overall character of the sound however remains consistent throughout the sources once you are accustomed to each ones individual sound. You can hear the changes imposed by each source to the music overall, but it still seems lacking in (I'm guessing here) the 80 -200hz range. Perhaps it's not that the mids & highs are too strident, but I'm lacking in this area. I experienced this even on the Dave Matthews/Tim Reynolds at Radio City True HD track on Blu Ray though it was vastly better than Redbook. I'm biased as a Dave fan but I think it's some of the best recorded guitars I've ever heard despite my system's shortcomings.

Back on track now. I read a recommendation last week that you should have your mains at least 2' from the wall or this will create a suckout around 140hz. Moved them out and didn't hear a difference in the range I'm listening for so I moved them back. They are about 14" from the wall behind them with some toe in. They stand 9' apart, about 2' to the left of center on the 20' side of a 20 x 30 room, and 9-10' from the listening position. ICs & speaker cables are all Straightwire Rhapsody IIs w/ Straightwire infolink spdif. Hdmi is used for video only. This is a repaeat but I'm splitting the signal from the preouts on the yamaha into the 1095 w/custom cables & using 2 amp channels & full runs of speaker cables per speaker.

My xover is 80hz, and I've compensated somewhat at times by running the mains as large and sending the signal to both mains & sub. It gains some bass but loses definition.

Let me know if I left out anything else and thanks for jumping in.

[zilla]

I've read good things about the new b&k pre over on AVS. I don't know how much it would cost though...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1065162

Thanks, I'm checking into it.

[Algoods]

Keep your speakers; you can always upgrade amps, sources etc. First, I would get the HTM 3 to uniform your LCR to give you the best HT sound. Then get a subwoofer for the bottom end. That will allow your amps to direct more power to the midrange which should give you what you’re missing. Then look at your sources: Pre Pro, CD player, computer etc. I’ve found that a pre pro sounds better than receivers and 2-channel pre amps sound even better. Also take a look at audiogon.com to sell some of your unused equipment and to upgrade your own.
I have been at it for 10 years starting w/ B&W 603’s a Yamaha receiver w/ Rotel amps to 802D’s and McIntosh 501’s. It takes time and money selling one set of speakers, amps, etc to offset the cost of newer equipment. Good Luck.

[zilla]

I should add that I am certain that the Yamaha 1400 receiveer as a pre/pro is a significant, posibbly huge problem component because I have taken it out of the loop and replaced it with my old but good, Yamaha 2090. It was their last flagship before they integrated Dolby processing (AC3) onboard the receivers.

The result was a fuller, warmer, overall more pleasing sound. This helped me at least minimize if not eliminate the possibility of it being strictly the room. That's how I came to the conclusion that a receiver or pre/pro has to be part of the equation. The question is just which one, at what price point, and for which set of speakers, is going to put me in the right price/performance range.

No doubt the 803s are vastly superior to the 604s but I don't know what the 604s are capable of driven by the right electronics, and I don't know if I can afford the right electroincs to maximize the 803s,

[zilla]

Keep your speakers; you can always upgrade amps, sources etc. First, I would get the HTM 3 to uniform your LCR to give you the best HT sound. Then get a subwoofer for the bottom end. That will allow your amps to direct more power to the midrange which should give you what you’re missing. Then look at your sources: Pre Pro, CD player, computer etc. I’ve found that a pre pro sounds better than receivers and 2-channel pre amps sound even better. Also take a look at audiogon.com to sell some of your unused equipment and to upgrade your own.
I have been at it for 10 years starting w/ B&W 603’s a Yamaha receiver w/ Rotel amps to 802D’s and McIntosh 501’s. It takes time and money selling one set of speakers, amps, etc to offset the cost of newer equipment. Good Luck.

Thanks for the feedback. I have 2 SVS PC+ cylinder subs tuned to 20hz for the bottom end so I'm covered there, at least for now. Had to go with 2, room's 20 x 30 x 8.

I know I need the center if I stay with the 803s but I'm thinking that (since music is the driving force for this) that for now a pre/pro is probably where I need to put my money if not a more formidable amp for my mains.

It sounds like you started almost exactly where I did with B&W, Yamaha & Rotel. Since Macs & Classe are out of reach for me (yes I can sell some stuff but it's still not going to cover the gorund I need to get there) what did you have between the Yamaha/603 and the Mac/802ds? Do you think the Integra 9.9 (since it has the feature set I'm looking for) is a waste of the 803s or is there another middle step you could recommend from the current crop that will give me an improvement assuming I keep the Rotel amp I have. Basically a receiver or pre/pro between the Integra @ $1599 and the Marantz @ $2600? I just get the feeling that I'm not going to get the performace the 803s is capable of unless I spend another $8-12k on amps and a pre pro, and let's not forget another $2600 or so for the HTM3s. If that's the case, I need to bail on them and get realistic with my rung on the socioeconomic ladder.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I appreciate your optimism of me being able to upgrade in the future and your advice but that kind of disposable income in the forseeable future is not looking likey given current events in my household.

[sikoniko]

this board can be very depressing at times. There certainly is every end of the spectrum of a system on the boards. Don't let it get to you. Even MrDoggy stepped his way up to his current system. There are very few people who actually go out and buy exactly what they want from day one. Take your time and enjoy what you have, save your money and as you can upgrade pieces.

[dknightd]

this is a tough one. I should probably not respond since I've been drinking. But here goes anyway.

Assuming you bought everything new - don't sell it used - try to work with your dealer till you get something you like.

You did not mention what sub you are using, or how you have it configured. I'd keep the 803. If you can't afford the matching center I'd run it without a center - i.e. phantom center.

I'm not a fan of fancy cables or biamping. Better in my opinion is to use an amp capable of driving your speakers, and interconnects and speaker wires goood enough.

I'm not sure how going from 803 to 604 will do anything for you.

Speaker position, and room treatments can make a big difference. You might
have your speakers in a place that makes them seem like they have no bass.
I would not spend any more money till you have figured out where your "problem"
lies - take it slow and easy.

Sorry, got to go, the pizza man just arrived.

[zilla]

this board can be very depressing at times. There certainly is every end of the spectrum of a system on the boards. Don't let it get to you. Even MrDoggy stepped his way up to his current system. There are very few people who actually go out and buy exactly what they want from day one. Take your time and enjoy what you have, save your money and as you can upgrade pieces.

Yes. Now I know how my "average listener" friends feel when I suggest they spend $700-$100 on an entry level receiver. Everyone has their own economy of scale. Just trying to find mine.

Thanks for the encouragement.

[Algoods]

My speakers have been all B&W: 603’s 7NT, 9NT, 804,083D and 802D.
For Amps I have used: Rotel, 2 channel 991, Bryston 3B and 4B SST, Bel Canto Evo, Classe 5 channel and McIntosh intergrated and 501’s.
For Pre’s I used Yamaha 2070 (which btw after being in the attic for a few years while one amp was being repaired I used on my 802Ds w/ good results). I also used an Anthem AVM 2 w/ great results; you can pick one up used $600.00 maybe. I now use a MAC C46.

For amps I liked the Bel Canto for HT but for music it was good w/ a dry sort of sound. For cost vs. performance Bryston would be a way to go. The make a very solid amp w/ excellent bass; 20 year warranty!

[zilla]

this is a tough one. I should probably not respond since I've been drinking. But here goes anyway.

Assuming you bought everything new - don't sell it used - try to work with your dealer till you get something you like.

You did not mention what sub you are using, or how you have it configured. I'd keep the 803. If you can't afford the matching center I'd run it without a center - i.e. phantom center.

I'm not a fan of fancy cables or biamping. Better in my opinion is to use an amp capable of driving your speakers, and interconnects and speaker wires goood enough.

I'm not sure how going from 803 to 604 will do anything for you.

Speaker position, and room treatments can make a big difference. You might
have your speakers in a place that makes them seem like they have no bass.
I would not spend any more money till you have figured out where your "problem"
lies - take it slow and easy.

Sorry, got to go, the pizza man just arrived.

On the contrary, the good and bad thing about booze is that it makes a good truth serum. I listed the subs in another post but they are SVS PC+. One 25-31 and one 2039. I've used them both tuned at 20hz, and also experimented with the 25-31 at it's native tune run from the mains as a mid bass driver which provided the best overall results but either the upper range of the sub wasn't potent enough to give me all that I was trying to acheive or that part of the signal just wasn't strong enough from the pre. That aside it seems so wrong to do it that way. I shouldn't have to use a sub to boost the mid upper bass on these speakers. The 602s or satellites, sure, but not 803s.

Cabling, I agree now. I was gung ho to "do it right" one step at a time. Started with the speakers, amp & cables. I am a firm believer that you need good cables, but I overdid it in my enthusiasm. I definitely hear a difference between the Rhapsody and the...ok, I'm going to say it.....Monster cables I had after a/b ing them, but I could have gotten sufficient cabling for 1/3 of that price or less if I had been a little less enthusiastic and more educated.

Trade ins are out as the Yamaha is an old piece. I've been making these mistakes for a while. That's why I'm being so cautious now.

As for the thoughts about movingback to the 604s, I can see how that seems like the wrong move and my guess is you're right. On one hand, I already have a matched set of "competent" speakers that play nice together and are in great shape that I couls compliment with some really nice electronics if I don't have to think about an expensive future center channel etc.

This part boils down to what really makes the most difference, speakers, or electronincs? Sensibly a synergy will be reached between the two as opposed to the scenario I'm in now. This is why I posed this question to owners who've moved up the B&W ladder. I see people on this forum running 600 series with some pretty high end electronics and it makes me wonder, did I go overboard on speakers when my money should have gone to a good strong pedigreed heart for the system?

Basically, could I potentiall get similar, better, or good enough performance out of the 604s by getting a really top notch (meaning classe, Krell, Musical Fidelity, Mac, Chord) front end, than I could get out of the 803s with for instance the Rotel amp & the new Integra 9.9 or something in it's performance category? Since I an't have it all, where's the bang for buck.

Hope you enjoyed your pizza. I'm going to order mine now. Cheers.

[Algoods]

I forgot: Never downgrade your speakers; You will regret it!

[zilla]

My speakers have been all B&W: 603’s 7NT, 9NT, 804,083D and 802D.
For Amps I have used: Rotel, 2 channel 991, Bryston 3B and 4B SST, Bel Canto Evo, Classe 5 channel and McIntosh intergrated and 501’s.
For Pre’s I used Yamaha 2070 (which btw after being in the attic for a few years while one amp was being repaired I used on my 802Ds w/ good results). I also used an Anthem AVM 2 w/ great results; you can pick one up used $600.00 maybe. I now use a MAC C46.

For amps I liked the Bel Canto for HT but for music it was good w/ a dry sort of sound. For cost vs. performance Bryston would be a way to go. The make a very solid amp w/ excellent bass; 20 year warranty!

I've been looking Bryston's way based on my reading. Need to find a dealer down here. I take it by your closing statement that it easily outperforms the Rotel. What was your take on the importance of wattage? I know a good 100watt amp is better thatn a mediocre 300watter, but in the case of Bryston and B&W, since yuou have so much experience with them, what range of power do you recommend I look for?

[Algoods]

I used the Bryston 4BST (250 watts) and 5BST 3-channel (110 watts) I think the 4BST would work well w/ the 803’s i.e. more headroom, bass whereas the 5BST has a faster sound. The 5BST is a hybrid of the 3 and 9 ST series. I regret today selling the 5BST. It makes a good amp for the center and rears, or for the fronts for that matter. You could find a 4BST pretty reasonable on Audiogon but the 5BST is hard to find; if you see one grab it quick. BTW the warranty I believe is still transferable even if you buy used ( check out on their website) Also Bryston was on Stereophile’s recommended listing for a long time.

[Algoods]

My experience w/ amps is the better the amp the harder and louder you can push your system. Between the Bryston and Rotel the biggest difference is the bass. Bass is a lot tigher w/ the Bryston.

[zilla]

Thanks Algoods. The 4b has caught my eye as I've lurked here but it's comforting to hear it from someone like yourself who's had hands on exp. w/ such similiar equipment.

As for your other reply, loudness is not an issue. Somewhere in one of the posts I mentioned that it actually sounds better & more balanced across the freq. spectrum at higher volumes. That's why I've been eyeballing pre/pros (I forget which ones now) that feature Audyssey or some other form of dynamic eq to ensure that it not only sounds good loud on those rare ociassions where I have the house to myself, but also under more sedate listening conditions.

Thanks for all the info. I'll do my best to put it to good use.

[wkhanna]

Do NOT! I repeat, Do NOT downgrade your speakers!

IMHO, two V good suggestions have been made so far, along with all the other good advice.

First, is room effects. Keep experimenting with placement. I would recommend setting your pre to two channel full range and start playing that Dave Mathews that you seem to be V familiar with. Keep moving your front main speakers to determine how significant placement effects your sound. I believe the Cardus site may have some info on the basics.

The fact that you say you experience the same issues in HT mode is interesting, and makes me want to come back to the room acoustics issue. Did you have the exact same issues with 6 series?

Treatments may also be a solution. Lots of info on this topic. Just to get you started:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

https://www.realtraps.com

Second, your pre and source may be a large contributing factor.

Could you get some demo equipment from your dealer to conduct a comparison on what the effect of upgrading your source would do?

AFA loudness is concerned, the Hall Mark of a good system that displays compatible synergy is the fact that it WILL play at low volume and still be capable of involving PRaT, along with resolving LF and sparkling HF. Your speakers especially, and your amp for the most part, should be able to attain all of this.

As always, JMHO, YMMV.

[specialized]

Thanks Algoods. The 4b has caught my eye as I've lurked here but it's comforting to hear it from someone like yourself who's had hands on exp. w/ such similiar equipment.

As for your other reply, loudness is not an issue. Somewhere in one of the posts I mentioned that it actually sounds better & more balanced across the freq. spectrum at higher volumes. That's why I've been eyeballing pre/pros (I forget which ones now) that feature Audyssey or some other form of dynamic eq to ensure that it not only sounds good loud on those rare ociassions where I have the house to myself, but also under more sedate listening conditions.

Thanks for all the info. I'll do my best to put it to good use.

After testing a lot of speakers, im waiting for 803S to arrive.. Wonderfull speakers, so much better then all other i have chance to test.. Dont downgrade them. I test them with Denon 3808 receiver as Pre/Pro and rotel1080 Amp and with this combination they were so much better then 703, Cm7, 683, and even 805s.

Upgrade u'r CD Player..
I suggest (i have a chance to try against my Rotel 1072), Pioneer PD-D9-J.

Seem that this SACD would beat a lot of competition in this price range..

Greetings

Darko

p.s. I found that speakers are maybe most important part of the chain. .At least in my experience of testing...

[Algoods]

Also look into installing dedicated electrical outlets. I find they make a noticable differance in your sound.

[audioqueso]

I agree with most. Don't sell your speakers.
You're just gonna lose out, and you already said that it cost you a lot to get these speakers.

The steps I would advice are:
1) Sell the center ($250ish)
2) Save some money
3) Sell the Yamaha (i have no idea how much it's worth)
4) Buy a better pre-pro

You have a good amp. Sure, it may not do the 803 justice, but you are not going to hear a great difference when switching from a Rotel amp, to a more powerful Rotel amp. I think you're weaking source is the Yamaha. Yes, I know a lot of people will prefer to have a dedicated CD player, but that doesn't mean you have to. You can use your existing sources as just a transport, sent it digital to the receiver, and use the receiver's DAC. With that said... look for a receiver that has a good DAC. Look at the Marantz pre-pro. I'm not sure if that is too much for you, but it's been shocking a lot of people. Another idea (though it's your call) is to give Emotiva a try (I'm surprised Dougie hasn't chimed in yet with them. :B ) I've never heard them. People that have used them swear by them. They have a 30 day money-back guarantee. If it doesn't do you any justice, return it.

Going from 803 back to 600 series. Don't do it.
I use to have a full 5.1 set of 600 series 3 speakers. I've had a pair of Nautilus 805's for 3 years now. A few months ago I started debating whether I should downgrade to 704's. That didn't happen. I bought a pair of 600 S3's for my bedroom a few months ago. Just to hear the difference, I did hook up the 600 in lieu of the 805. For both, I set the cut-over at 80Hz to make it fair. My Velodyne took care of the rest. Even with the same gear, there's no going back. The 600's are great for the price, but the 800 series are such a different league of speakers. The music didn't even sound. My wife said she couldn't believe how much of a difference there was. Don't sell your speakers. :T

[zilla]

Also look into installing dedicated electrical outlets. I find they make a noticable differance in your sound.

Good call here. This has been on the long term list for a while. I don't necessarilly think it's contributing to the specific issues I'm concentrating on here but the way my house is designed, the circuit I'm using has lights & cieling fans & wall outlets from other rooms drawing from it in addition to my HT. I use a line conditioner for everything but the am & subs but I'm sure there's a compromise of the sound quality on some level.

For 2 500watt subs, the 5 x 200watt rotel, another roughly 100-200watt ampe for the rears, a 62" DLP, a pre/pro, and a couple of sources, will a single 30 amp circuit suffice? I know, ask an electrician, but I figure there are enough of you her who've done it to have an idea if it's close.

[zilla]

After testing a lot of speakers, im waiting for 803S to arrive.. Wonderfull speakers, so much better then all other i have chance to test.. Dont downgrade them. I test them with Denon 3808 receiver as Pre/Pro and rotel1080 Amp and with this combination they were so much better then 703, Cm7, 683, and even 805s.

Upgrade u'r CD Player..
I suggest (i have a chance to try against my Rotel 1072), Pioneer PD-D9-J.

Seem that this SACD would beat a lot of competition in this price range..

Greetings

Darko

p.s. I found that speakers are maybe most important part of the chain. .At least in my experience of testing...

I also felt that speakers were the most important part. After all, you can only get out what they are capable of. You can have a Ferrari but it's not going to hug the road with retreaded tires. Vice versa, you can put the best tires in the world on a VW, but it's still a VW. 600's will be 600s. Great speakers in their class and I'll probably have my 602s forever. They're a solid speaker I'll always be happy to have playing somewhere in the house.

There are a lot of good replies here but the common denominator matches my initial impressions. Start with a solid pre/pro.

A local dealer proposed the Deneon 3808CI to me but I was apprehensive. He didn't sell B&W so I couldn't demo and I'd have to buy, aking fee if I wasn't satisfied. that and the fac that he said the Denon alone would drive the 803s so I wouldn't need the amp led me to the cinclusion that we were in different worlds. Suprised me. This was not some BB employee but an established boutique-ish shop that's been around here for 20 years.

Thanks again. Please post your impressions once you get your 803s and a/b the Rotel vs Pioneer. I' guessing you are going with the Denon and Rotel amp you demoed the with? If not, let us know what you're using on the front end.

[zilla]

Do NOT! I repeat, Do NOT downgrade your speakers!

IMHO, two V good suggestions have been made so far, along with all the other good advice.

First, is room effects. Keep experimenting with placement. I would recommend setting your pre to two channel full range and start playing that Dave Mathews that you seem to be V familiar with. Keep moving your front main speakers to determine how significant placement effects your sound. I believe the Cardus site may have some info on the basics.

The fact that you say you experience the same issues in HT mode is interesting, and makes me want to come back to the room acoustics issue. Did you have the exact same issues with 6 series?

Treatments may also be a solution. Lots of info on this topic. Just to get you started:

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

https://www.realtraps.com

Second, your pre and source may be a large contributing factor.

Could you get some demo equipment from your dealer to conduct a comparison on what the effect of upgrading your source would do?

AFA loudness is concerned, the Hall Mark of a good system that displays compatible synergy is the fact that it WILL play at low volume and still be capable of involving PRaT, along with resolving LF and sparkling HF. Your speakers especially, and your amp for the most part, should be able to attain all of this.

As always, JMHO, YMMV.

Any Room can be improved and I agee mine is a factor to a degree. That being said, like the dedicated circuit that was suggested, these are on the long term list and I'm not certain how long I'll be in this house. I don't want you to feel like your advice was wasted. I know this is a majot contributor/detractor for sound and a lot of people are prone to disregard it because buying hardware is a lot more fun. Not the case, just not the time for me to make this move so I've done what I can with furnishings except that I will be adding heavy drapes to cover a large window & slider. I will read & print the links you provided for reference when I make this move whether in this house or the next.

I did have the same problem with the 600s, but that is with the same yamaha 1400 pre. The other reason I'm not sold on just the room, is that I inserted my old Yamaha 2090 into the mix and it warmed things up nicely and while not perfect, was closer to the overall sonic balance I'm after on the 803s, and headed in the right direction with the 604s just not as obvious as th bass is a lot less disciplined on the 604s so it got a little muddy. Can't use the 2090 because it's almost old enough to get a driver's license. Doesn't even have AC3 processing on board. That comes via a stand alone unit with only 2 inputs.

The comment on loudness gave me some hope that maybe I don't have to look so hard for a unit with dynamic eq. I'm confident that my regular dealer will let me demo some equip. but he's pushing Rotel hard, and I'm not so sure I want a Rotel pre/pro. Their last couple of models have had, well, if you don't want to call them bugs, call them design flaws or inadequacies. That and the lack of any eq at all makes me wary. I know eq is not the answer to everything but even the 1st generation of the yamaha eq in the 1400 yields benefits in my room and eq bundled into an avr or pre/pro is more affordable and a resonable holdover til room treatment is feasible.

Thanks a ton.

[zilla]

I agree with most. Don't sell your speakers.
You're just gonna lose out, and you already said that it cost you a lot to get these speakers.

Agreed. I knew it when I started this, guess I just needed a support group to come to terms with the fact I have a lot more to spend to get up to par/
The steps I would advice are:
1) Sell the center ($250ish)
Using the pair of 602 s2. Already moved the 604s & LCR60 to the neighbors. They are going to buy when they get a little more cash. At least they're being used by someone who appreciates them instead of making my living room look like a warehouse. Dedicated CD & HTM3 will be the last thing I do before room treatment & a dedicated circuit.
2) Save some money - story of my life
3) Sell the Yamaha (i have no idea how much it's worth) not much. Probably go to the wife's system or sell it to the neighbors. They're using my 2090 with the 604s and I'm going to keep that for 2 channel for the garage/office/something
4) Buy a better pre-pro - Yes, confirmed by the responses here as my top priority

You have a good amp. Sure, it may not do the 803 justice, but you are not going to hear a great difference when switching from a Rotel amp, to a more powerful Rotel amp. I think you're weaking source is the Yamaha. Yes, I know a lot of people will prefer to have a dedicated CD player, but that doesn't mean you have to. You can use your existing sources as just a transport, sent it digital to the receiver, and use the receiver's DAC. With that said... look for a receiver that has a good DAC. Look at the Marantz pre-pro. I'm not sure if that is too much for you, but it's been shocking a lot of people. Another idea (though it's your call) is to give Emotiva a try (I'm surprised Dougie hasn't chimed in yet with them. :B ) I've never heard them. People that have used them swear by them. They have a 30 day money-back guarantee. If it doesn't do you any justice, return it.

The Marantz is at the limit of what I am willing/able to stretch for. Actually well past it at the moment but with this jones we always manage o find a way don't we? My problems is that the 8003 lacks the ability to set the x-over by channel pairs. My 803s should realistically be run as small & xed-over between 40-60hz in an ideal environment as well as the future HTM3. I'll never have full range speakers in the rear though. Shouldn't a variable per channel pair x-over be a staple? Seems to be a significant shortcoming. I also read great things about the sound, but service from Marantz seems to be severely lacking in the owners thread on another forum. I had cosidered even the 7002 or 8002 receiver as a pre/pro but they're not upgradable except by shipping it to Marantz. There seem to be a few required software patches, and long waits. You also apparently can't (or couldn't a weeek or two ago) get a guaranteed newest firmware unit shipped on a new purchase so you might just buy something you have to send right back. Not sure if this is still an issue but these things gave me pause.

I was looking into Emotiva Sunday and will probably give them a call today. I see the name tossed around a lot. If anyone's running similar speakers with Emotiva gear I'd love to hear their inpressions.

Also, no one's chimed in on the Integra (or Onkyo Pro which seems to be the same unit with a different face - back panels looks identical). I know the 9.9. hasn't shipped yet, but the 9.8 was very popular and not that I put too much stock in reviews, but it was just awarded processor of the year over the Marantz in Home theater Mag. The reason I keep trying to get responses to this is it seems to have every feature I need, some I want, and a little gravy on top like the Reon processor.

I don't expect the Integra to be on par with the Marantz but I have to hope that sound wise the 9.9 is at least equivalent to the 9.8. Is anyoneout there using the 9.8 w/comparable speakers that can chime in? Maybe this should be a new thread?

Going from 803 back to 600 series. Don't do it.
I use to have a full 5.1 set of 600 series 3 speakers. I've had a pair of Nautilus 805's for 3 years now. A few months ago I started debating whether I should downgrade to 704's. That didn't happen. I bought a pair of 600 S3's for my bedroom a few months ago. Just to hear the difference, I did hook up the 600 in lieu of the 805. For both, I set the cut-over at 80Hz to make it fair. My Velodyne took care of the rest. Even with the same gear, there's no going back. The 600's are great for the price, but the 800 series are such a different league of speakers. The music didn't even sound. My wife said she couldn't believe how much of a difference there was. Don't sell your speakers. :T

I'm sold - I just lost my mind for a little while. Thanks to all who echoed this point & spared me the regret.

[specialized]

I also felt that speakers were the most important part. After all, you can only get out what they are capable of. You can have a Ferrari but it's not going to hug the road with retreaded tires. Vice versa, you can put the best tires in the world on a VW, but it's still a VW. 600's will be 600s. Great speakers in their class and I'll probably have my 602s forever. They're a solid speaker I'll always be happy to have playing somewhere in the house.

There are a lot of good replies here but the common denominator matches my initial impressions. Start with a solid pre/pro.

A local dealer proposed the Deneon 3808CI to me but I was apprehensive. He didn't sell B&W so I couldn't demo and I'd have to buy, aking fee if I wasn't satisfied. that and the fac that he said the Denon alone would drive the 803s so I wouldn't need the amp led me to the cinclusion that we were in different worlds. Suprised me. This was not some BB employee but an established boutique-ish shop that's been around here for 20 years.

Thanks again. Please post your impressions once you get your 803s and a/b the Rotel vs Pioneer. I' guessing you are going with the Denon and Rotel amp you demoed the with? If not, let us know what you're using on the front end.

I'm using Denon 3808 as Pre/Pro for the front, and AMP for center and rears. For the front i'm using Rotel RB-1080. I tested last week Denon alone, and with 1080 for front, and when u use 1080 at least on 805s (on 803s would be even more difference i think), i can notice that Rotel make tighter sound, more controled and better imaging. So definitly u need something more then receiver to driver 800 series. From other side ,i have a chance to check my Denon (3808) as Pre/Pro vs McIntosh Stereo preamplifier on B&W 804s, and i dont feel difference in sound quality. At lest in dealer room, and i was in hurry so i want to try this again. I tested yesterday Rotel RCD 1072 vs Pioneer PD-D9-J, and i can say that Pioneer sound more controled and better then Rotel.. So consider this CD player if u like to pay low money for high quality. I really like how this CD is made it. Wonderfull...
For the center im using now HTM61, but i'm ordering HTM3S, and i'll use for this center Rotel Power Amp, and i'm still thinking.. 1070, 1080, or to get 1095 and to solve amplification for rears as well..

Anyway, dont donwgrade 803s.. They are speakers that u can have them for years.. Also they would give big reward if u upgrade something else in the system.. If u downgrade them, and upgrade anything else, with bad speakers im not sure that u'll get that much emotions as with 803s.

Greetings

Darko

[Algoods]

I would install two 15 amp circuits. Use one circuit for analog and the other for tv and video. Use power strip on each if needed but, keep analog and digital seperate for best results

[iiaudio]

Spending $500 on good room treatments will always out perform $5000 in electronics.

[PewterTA]

I have the Yamaha RV-1400 still in use today, it's pushing 603s at my friends house since his Onkyo Pre died. It's a great receiver and can push the speakers decently well. I have since given him my RB-1080 and it's made a difference to the sound, smoothed it out a little bit with Rotels rounded off highs (compared to the Yamaha). It also has more solid bass to them as well.

The only issue I had is Yamaha's pre-outs aren't really good. They are really low on the output and I had to up the Yamaha's output per channel almost 3dbs to match the center and surrounds. Now for 2ch it's not a big deal as you just have to turn the volume up to get them to play loud, but the sound is very similar to my RSP-1098/1095/1080 combo...just a little bit more clairity and detail in my system...but you really have to hear source material side by side to notice.

So all in all I'm saying the Yamaha receiver isn't a terrible receiver and can be used as a decent Pre. Definitely an decent amp will help.

[Charlieu]

[QUOTE=zilla]What I'm missing: Mid & upper bass. I've got gobs of low bass for movies etc. (/QUOTE]

This is your problem. Amps, processors, dedicated circuits and cables aren't going to solve it. You have to do it the hard way. You will have to get your room right. You may have to rearrange your room and put in acoustic panels and/or diffusors to treat the trouble spots. Depending on your situation, you may not be able reach a "perfect" solution, but some well placed panels and tweaks to your room layout can make a big difference. Your equipment isn't robbing you of those frequencies, your room is.

Charlie

[wettou]

Spending $500 on good room treatments will always out perform $5000 in electronics.

Yes, yes yes.. the issue is making sure that they are position properly

[zilla]

I have the Yamaha RV-1400 still in use today, it's pushing 603s at my friends house since his Onkyo Pre died. It's a great receiver and can push the speakers decently well. I have since given him my RB-1080 and it's made a difference to the sound, smoothed it out a little bit with Rotels rounded off highs (compared to the Yamaha). It also has more solid bass to them as well.

The only issue I had is Yamaha's pre-outs aren't really good. They are really low on the output and I had to up the Yamaha's output per channel almost 3dbs to match the center and surrounds. Now for 2ch it's not a big deal as you just have to turn the volume up to get them to play loud, but the sound is very similar to my RSP-1098/1095/1080 combo...just a little bit more clairity and detail in my system...but you really have to hear source material side by side to notice.

So all in all I'm saying the Yamaha receiver isn't a terrible receiver and can be used as a decent Pre. Definitely an decent amp will help.

So does this mean that low output on the Yamaha pre-outs are making my external amp work harder?

If so, what specification/s do I look for when I get a pre/pro?

[zilla]

Yes, yes yes.. the issue is making sure that they are position properly

A $500 (or thereabout) option is looking very good right now since my wife rolled our SUV since I started this thread. That's why I havent been here in a while. Will definitely have to wait a bit for a significant electronics upgrade but the building concensus on the room has me sold.

[zilla]

[QUOTE=Charlieu]

What I'm missing: Mid & upper bass. I've got gobs of low bass for movies etc. (/QUOTE]

This is your problem. Amps, processors, dedicated circuits and cables aren't going to solve it. You have to do it the hard way. You will have to get your room right. You may have to rearrange your room and put in acoustic panels and/or diffusors to treat the trouble spots. Depending on your situation, you may not be able reach a "perfect" solution, but some well placed panels and tweaks to your room layout can make a big difference. Your equipment isn't robbing you of those frequencies, your room is.

Charlie

Sounds like you're pretty passionate about your opinion Charlie. I don't know how to link an image here. Is there a way I could send you a jpg diagram of my room so perhaps you could suggest a starting point? I definitely need heavy drapes, and can (and have i the past) experiment with nudging the speakers around but when it comes to absorbers, diffusers, or the means to measure or verify the proper placement and material I'm starting from square one. From what I understand there are panels or materials that are so specific as to only affect specific frequencies etc. I'm going to read everything I can get my hands on today but if you wouldn't mind taking a look at the room and giving me a pointer or 2 it might make me feel a little less over my head. Thanks regardless.

[RobP]

What you should do before anything would be to take a measurement of the room with your speakers to actually see what is happening with the frequency response and decay times to get a plan of attack with your room treatments.

[zilla]

Thanks Robert,
I've read Ethan's page (much of it anyway) and have downloaded various test tones. Havent used them yet because I'm in the process of figuring out how.

I've also run the room dimesnions throught the mode calculator and some of what is shows correlates to what I'm hearing and have measured in the past. SHows me flat up to 40 hz then it goes haywire, or at least looks like it .
Got an issue around 50-80hz range and then from 110 -300hz it's a mess. I was thinking about REW in the past but that's only good up to 200hz.

Fogive me if I just haven't read enough yet but I'll take whatever you have to offer to help get me ahead. Beyond these tones and an spl meter, what tools do I use to get the right info and translate that into the right treatment. Bear with me if it's all there in Ethan's page and I just can't wrap my brain around it yet.

[george_k]

If your considering Bryston might as well consider McIntosh as well. They mate very well with B&W.

I bought a used MA6900 integrated to power my 703's and honestly and I couldn't be happier. I don't see myself upgrading the amplification anytime soon.

[marky mark]

i have the similiar problem as you, at first the speakers were not bad but sounded alot better at the dealer, the top and the mid were not bad but felt the the bass were lack, at first i thought that it needed time to break in, after 200 plus hours i still felt that the bass were lacking, my speakers were bi-wire with a know good Brand( not sure if i can tell you the name), it had rave reviews for the silver cables, all five stars. in the end i found the the cables were not thick enough (think of water running through a pipe, bigger the pipe, more water) in the end i just reattach the jumper and connected both the pos. wire to the pos. terminal and both neg. wire to the neg. wires. sounded alot better and had better bass

another thing to is to not rely on you yammie calibration, why don't you measure the distance from the speakers and get a spl meter ( you can pick up a cheap one at radio shack) and do your own calibration and setting the speaker level

another thing you can try doing is unplugging your system from the wall for a few days and retest, sometime there's too much interference

also have your try upgrading you power cable, i did a a-b test with various power cable and you be surprise that it really opens up your speakers to a whole new level

by the way. as every one all ready mention, DON'T GET RID OF YOUR SPEAKERS, you have a nice wonderful nice set of speakers, just enjoy for now till you have more funds, ;x(

[Charlieu]

[QUOTE=zilla]

Sounds like you're pretty passionate about your opinion Charlie. I don't know how to link an image here. Is there a way I could send you a jpg diagram of my room so perhaps you could suggest a starting point? I definitely need heavy drapes, and can (and have i the past) experiment with nudging the speakers around but when it comes to absorbers, diffusers, or the means to measure or verify the proper placement and material I'm starting from square one. From what I understand there are panels or materials that are so specific as to only affect specific frequencies etc. I'm going to read everything I can get my hands on today but if you wouldn't mind taking a look at the room and giving me a pointer or 2 it might make me feel a little less over my head. Thanks regardless.

I'm a convert, we're the worst kind. It started with the question "Why don't these speakers sound as good as they did in the store?". I read everything I could find on acoustics, bought a Radio Shack meter and the Rives CD. The last two answered my question. In doing the research, I found a few companies that did acoustic panels and sent them a drawing of my room along with a few pictures. I suggest you do the same. They are the experts, not me. You'll have to decide how far you go with their advice. The recommendations can be pretty extreme. I did enough to take care of my worst problems and the difference in sound was real and measureable.

Once your room is right and you are hearing all the sound, then you can be confident that when you upgrade a piece of equipment, you will actually hear the difference, not just imagine it. BTW I'm like you, I spent my money on the speakers, not the electronics.

Charlie

[zilla]

Thanks everyone. Unfortunately all my time (and money) is going to take care of a totalled SUV & a banged up wife. On the bright side, she'll be ok, and this will give me plenty of time to educate myself before I get back onto this. I'm grateful for all the helpful advice I received from all of you and I' will be back.

[beden1]

Thanks everyone. Unfortunately all my time (and money) is going to take care of a totalled SUV & a banged up wife. On the bright side, she'll be ok, and this will give me plenty of time to educate myself before I get back onto this. I'm grateful for all the helpful advice I received from all of you and I' will be back.

Try this low cost tweak. I've had noticeable improvement for one of my systems in mid/upper bass output by making sure my front speakers are positioned properly for the best imaging, plus, by raising the speakers 6" off the ground. The highs also improved with the raised height, and the lower bass frequencies tightened up.

For a cheap and quick test to see if it helps your situation, go to Home Depot and piece together a couple of their larger diameter concrete patio stones that they sell in the garden center (they have them in squares and round). It may take two each to get to the proper height.

If this helps, which it did for me, then you can look for a more permanent solution like a speaker stand down the road when you get a few extra bucks to spend.

It also greatly helped to tighten the lower bass output of my subs by elevating them 3"-4" of the floor. I did this with granite bases and super spikes.

[beden1]

Try this low cost tweak. I've had noticeable improvement for one of my systems in mid/upper bass output by making sure my front speakers are positioned properly for the best imaging, plus, by raising the speakers 6" off the ground. The highs also improved with the raised height, and the lower bass frequencies tightened up.

For a cheap and quick test to see if it helps your situation, go to Home Depot and piece together a couple of their larger diameter concrete patio stones that they sell in the garden center (they have them in squares and round). It may take two each to get to the proper height.

If this helps, which it did for me, then you can look for a more permanent solution like a speaker stand down the road when you get a few extra bucks to spend.

It also greatly helped to tighten the lower bass output of my subs by elevating them 3"-4" of the floor. I did this with granite bases and super spikes.

I forgot about these as an option as well. I have not used or seen them personally, but they look like they will work and are reasonably priced. You could also use them between the speakers and whatever base you use to raise the speakers.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Auralex-MoPad-Monitor-Isolation-Pads-101676609-i1134516.gc