Which Surrounds DS7 or SCMS?

[RebelMan]

Hello All,

I am a new member of this forum but I have been visiting it for sometime learning tips and other useful information. Now I need your help. I am planning an upgrade to my existing 5.1 channel system and I have narrowed my choices down to the 804S for the L and R, and the HTM3S for the C. I am, however, struggling with my choice of surrounds, namely the DS7 or the SCMS (unfortunately, my room cannot accommodate the DS8 nor a set of speakers that cannot be mounted on the wall). Below are my room specs, speaker setup and listening preferences.


Room Specs

1. 12'W x 18'L
2. Cathedral (Vaulted) Ceiling, 8' (front) - 12' (back).
3. Wall on one side only, opposite side is open to another room. (I know it is not the best environment to be entertained in, but it is what I have to deal with, none the less.)


Speaker Setup

1. The C would be placed on the FS-HTM stand between the L and R.
2. L and R would be positioned about 8'-8.5' apart and about 12' from the listener.
3. LR and RR would be mounted about 8'-8.5' apart, 8'-8.5' high and 3' behind the listening position which measures about 8' from the listener's ear.


Listening Preferences

60% HT, 40% Stereo, 0% Multi-Channel Audio (However, this could supplant 10-20% of stereo once I have the gear.)


DS7 Pros

1. Costs ~50% less than the SCMS.
2. Supports both MONOPOLE and DIPOLE modes.
3. A little more compact.


SCMS Pros

1. Better timbre matching?
2. Adjustable angle brackets.
3. Nicer finish.


My dilemma...

I have an opportunity to listen to the DS7s but not the SCMS's (dealer does not have them in stock). I have never heard DIPOLE speakers, yet, but I am aware of their strengths and weaknesses. Given my set of circumstances, which speaker would you choose? Would you change your mind if the price didn't matter? Please keep in mind the possibility of moving this system into a more desirable room and support for a 7.1 channel setup in the future.

Thanks for your help!

RebelMan

[ti33er]

In my opinion if you can't afford rear speakers with matching tweeters, rather go with cheaper diPoles - the high end cut off is lower and you don't get such a mismatch in 10kHz+ frequency.

However in saying that I would prefer not to go with diPoles next time and rather get good monopoles with matching tweeters (from the same series) all round. One loses so much 'detail' with diPolar speakers ...if you set up your monopole rears properly i.e. good rear stereo positioning, you should be able to acheive a great rear-3D-sound-stage? ...some may disagree but this is my finding after owning 2 sets of diPoles for 2 years?

I really noticed the missing detail in the rear when I switched the rears to monopole mode - the tweeters really didnt match up because they were 603 series 3 diPoles mixed with Nautilus 805s, but I realised how bland the rears had been all along ...I think that diPoles should only really be used as rear centres in a 7.1 speaker setup, here they are merely gap fillers?

[sikoniko]

thats funny. I just read an article today that says the even thx ultra 2 specs say to use only direct firing speakers and stay away from dipoles because of phase issues.

I have a similar setup in the nautilus and I LOVE my SCM1's. I think they are great addition for surround. I would say go w/ the SCMS's without hesitation.

[perato]

I listened to 805S and it sounded close to the 705/HTM7/DS7 that I have. So I think the timbre matching between 804S and DS7 would be close. SCMS might be closer but at least you're not trying to match a diamond tweeter to DS7 or SCMS. If you really don't want or can't buy DS8, it basically boils down to if you like the dipole/monopole switchable feature. Personally, I like the feature, that is why I bought DS7; others hate dipole. Von Schweikert makes a monopole/dipole speaker (the TS 150). I do not know well it timbre matches to 804S/HTM3S, but you might want to check it out. If you are looking long-term into the future, you can (1) forego DS7/SCMS now, (2) buy the cheapest speakers you can find to substitute DS7/SCMS, and (3) wait until you can afford DS8. By "afford" I mean whenever you are able to resolve the factor(s) preventing you from buying DS8 now.

[ti33er]

hmmm what I meant was in a 5.1 setup, with cash constraint I would go for cheaper diPole speakers. However I would probably avoid diPoles altogether next time round - would opt for a 7.1 (or 7.2 hehe) with matching monopoles...and they be free standing speakers (not wall-mounted) ideally, if I have the space and can afford them all...I pray daily!

"Dan Schulze" rear setup (actually entire setup) is what what I would like - http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachm...achmentid=1852 ...Dan, I envy you

[RebelMan]

Actually, I can "financially" afford the SCMS speakers, however, my aim is to get the best bang for the buck (best sonic return on my investment) seeing as I cannot "physically" afford any floor standing models. I am very aware of the controversy between monopole and dipole speakers but when I ask a dealer about it, they tend to shy away from it. They are reluctant, it seems, to give a straight answer; my experience anyway.

ti33er, I understood what you meant, in both cases, and I appreciate your feedback. And I agree with you, Dan is fortunate.

sikoniko, thanks for the heads up on that article you read, that goes a long way in helping me with my decison.

perato, I am going to audition the DS7's on Sunday. I'm sure they are a fine speaker for surrounds, after all I am considering them. But based on popular opinon from this thread (so far) and what I have seen in the "trade" (about monopole vs dipole) I am leaning toward the SCMS's. I guess at this point the DS7's would have to win me over and make me change my mind, but we shall see.

Any other members care to share their thoughts on the issue?

[ti33er]

...If I actually had the money, SCMS without a doubt...with such a fine 800 series front setup you will always be pondering what it would have been like with the matching rear speakers IMO ...just try not to get upgradeitus anytime too soon...speakers should be keepers!

[kmak]

Aren't the DS7 both mono and dipole? The best of both worlds in one box. I think you could trigger them externally and physically flip a switch to toggle from mode to mode. My $0.02.

Ken

[ti33er]

Yes the DS7's are mono/dipole but they are from the 7 series...the SCMS's will match up a lot closer with the 804S etc.

The difference is like mixing the N80x's with the Signature/Prestige range IMO (the tweeters are a lot more refined in the new 800 series like the Signatures, the newish 700 series is closer to the old Nautilus 800 sound) - it certainly won't be bad mixing DS7's with 804S/HTM3, it will be pretty close...but not perfect.

I would rather have all my speakers matching if I could "afford" to have them matching...heck I mixed N805/NHTM2 with DS6 diPoles and this was ok (in diPolar mode only though)

[Jason R]

Had my dealer around on Monday last week for the same reason, as i was not sure what to go for as surrounds. My room is roughly the same size with open double doorway on the left rear, so i will be going for scms as surrounds because they can be fitted above the doorway and the new tweeter is at the bottom so no problems with the ceiling reflections as before. The are also compact enoug to fit in the 50cm gap i have. The reason why i would suggest going for them is they will not only look superb and match perfectly with the front 3 speakers, but i have never enjoyed the 700 series tweeter and even the dealer did suggest that i not keep the 704's as rear surrounds because they just won't match tonally.

The 800s is leaps and bounds ahead of the 700 in the tweeter department and is so smooth compared to it i would not match any of the 7 series with the 8s series. It is not a cost issue for you so the bang for buck is gonna be the balance you get from the surrounds not the cost saving.

Stick with the SCMs and don't regret the harsh tweeter as i did in the 7 series. The 7 series is great and i don't want to upset anybody, but i have a very bright room so it makes it worse, however the 804's have had none ofthese problems soi can only assume it was due to the speaker. I tried the close match thing and have decided to bite the bullet write out a cheque for 10k and get surrounds that match my fronts. And the SCMS are the way i am going,with either another pair at the back for 7.1 or 805's.i am not sure yet, quite keen on the look of having the 805's at the back.

End of rambling, get the SCMS you won't be sorry,your room is to small to really need dipole anyway.

Hope this helps,

[RebelMan]

Thanks Jason and ti33er, you've both been helpful and right on the money. I listened to the DS7s on Sunday in both monopole and dipolar modes. In monopole mode we played Diana Krall in 5.1 channels and I immediately noticed the tweeter mismatching. The rears failed to "blend" well with the fronts, instead they stood out, and were surprisingly noticeable. Not by a lot mind you but enough to turn me off.

In dipolar mode it was obvious how much the room behind me opened up. Although it seemed a little odd to me. I felt like I was in an echo chamber. I had mixed feelings about it. I liked the openess, but like ti33er mentioned before, there seemed to be too much detail missing. I guess for the right application (mounted on the sides instead of in the back where I need it) and matched with the 700 series speakers they would work fine. However for my needs, I have decided the SCMS's are the way to go.

Thanks again everyone.

[EAmin]

I installed a set of SCMSs two weeks ago --- now a 7-channel system. I have a 700 series HT (703/HTM7/Sig7NT in-walls (mounted in the ceiling)). The addition of the SCMSs really envelops you in the movie --- they sound great (even with the 700s and the in-walls). I did not consider the DS7s, but I didn’t hear that many good things about them.

I’m sure with an all 800 series system, it will sound even better. Good luck with your purchase.