B&W dipole vs. bookshelf as surrounds [DS3 vs 685, DS7 vs 705. DS8 vs 805]

[videophile]

Please help me decide on which surround speakers to get: DS3 or 685? I have B&W 683, HTM61, Velodyne CHT-12R, Rotel RSP-1066 and Rotel RMB-1075. [I'm sure the question can apply to DS7 vs. 705 and DS8 vs. 805]

I know that dipole speakers produce more diffused sound as compared to bookshelf, and is preferred to HT while bookshelf for multichannel music. But in your actual listening experience, which one do you prefer? Why?

I understand DS3, DS7 and DS8 have a switch between monopole and dipole mode. How are their performance in monopole mode compared to their counterpart bookshelf?

Thanks in advance!

[htsteve]

Please help me decide on which surround speakers to get: DS3 or 685? I have B&W 683, HTM61, Velodyne CHT-12R, Rotel RSP-1066 and Rotel RMB-1075. [I'm sure the question can apply to DS7 vs. 705 and DS8 vs. 805]

I know that dipole speakers produce more diffused sound as compared to bookshelf, and is preferred to HT while bookshelf for multichannel music. But in your actual listening experience, which one do you prefer? Why?

I understand DS3, DS7 and DS8 have a switch between monopole and dipole mode. How are their performance in monopole mode compared to their counterpart bookshelf?

Thanks in advance!

videophile,

I've had rooms with both styles, dipole vs. dedicated rears. I had SCM8's (triangular shaped dipoles). These gave off a great sound field. Detail was pretty good. I didn't have a large room, so the SCM*'s were more than adequate.

We then re-arranged our room and I decided to go with bookshelf rear speakers. I got 705's (to go with the N804's and HTM1 I had upfront). I could get the couch barely in front of the 705's, which were toed in. In that room, I definitely preferred the 705's. The 705 was much newer than the SCM8 and it showed. Better high end detail, better bass response (bigger cabinet, better bass). There was also more integration with the front three. Overall, I very much liked the 705 bookshelf as rears. Part of it for me was to get the rear speakers physically behind, even if slightly, to enhance the surround nature of things.

Late last year I got 802D's and an HTM2D up front. I moved the N804's to the rear. A great set-up. It only confirmed for me that getting rear speakers behind me was a good idea. I've since built a dedicated HT room and now I am about 2 feet in front of the N804's. It's now quite awesome.


I realize that space (and WAF) limitations might limit your choices. Any of the choices listed are good. Given that you have 6 series up front, I would stick with that line. Best integration with the fronts.

As for monopole vs. dipole, I've not had direct experience with that. Part of that equation would be how big a space you have to fill (favoring dipole) and where you can mount the wall speakers (if aligned with the listening position, I probably would favor monopole). You can test both ways and see what you like best.


My vote is for the 685's.


Hope this helps.

[Blindamood]

I actually prefer the SCMS, which is kind of in between. It's wall-mount, but bipole instead of dipole. To me it's the best of both worlds, because it can be mounted higher and aimed down and/or toed in, which gives it a great image for the rear channels (especially multi-channel music, which I listen to often). I switched from stand-mount CDM 1NTs to the SCMS, and never feel I lost anything in regard to multi-channel music listening.

However, I'm not sure this helps you any, as the 6-series does not have an equivalent. The DS3 appears to be the best compromise, given that it can be switched to either mode. However, so much depends on your room setup, such as whether or not you can wall-mount, have room for stands, etc. Or maybe you can find a pair of used CDM SNTs (on audiogon or eBay), which are closer to an SCMS for less $$...

[artv4]

roomsetup is a definite factor. i purchased the ds3 & dm601 s3 and preferred the direct sound of the 601. the ds3 did create a good sound space, though, the 601's produced a more convincing surround field. so, i say purchase the 685

[videophile]

Thanks guys for your very informative answers. Unfortunately I can't find SCMS here in my country. So I'm limited to DS3 and 685. I'll definitely stick to 6-series as suggested.

I'm building a dedicated HT room and I don't have problem wall-mounting my speakers either side or rear or putting them on stands. I just want to have the best sounding surround speakers for my system. It would be nice if I could audition them side by side but I couldn't as there are no B&W dealer in town and I'll just order and have them shipped.

artv4, are you using both DS3 and DM601 S3 as surround speakers? I assume DS3 for side and 601 for rear...

Which is better, wall-mount 685 or place them on stands? Also, where should I put them---in the rear or side?

[artv4]

Thanks guys for your very informative answers. Unfortunately I can't find SCMS here in my country. So I'm limited to DS3 and 685. I'll definitely stick to 6-series as suggested.

I'm building a dedicated HT room and I don't have problem wall-mounting my speakers either side or rear or putting them on stands. I just want to have the best sounding surround speakers for my system. It would be nice if I could audition them side by side but I couldn't as there are no B&W dealer in town and I'll just order and have them shipped.

artv4, are you using both DS3 and DM601 S3 as surround speakers? I assume DS3 for side and 601 for rear...

Which is better, wall-mount 685 or place them on stands? Also, where should I put them---in the rear or side?

i am currently using the dm601 s3 on stands (b&w stav24) on the sides of the room toed in slightly towards the listening position. i am also using a vm6 ( i got a great deal) for my surround back.

[videophile]

Thanks for all your valuable recommendations! After several days of agonizing which surround speakers to get, I decided to get B&W 685 bookshelf speakers. I'd like to share my insights based on my research which might be helpful to those who are deciding which one to get:

1. Dipole surround speakers pre-date Dolby Digital 5.1 and 7.1 processing technology. Dipoles were designed for the early dolby pro-logic processing with diffused mono surround.

2. Dolby Digital labs recommend the use of direct radiating (bookshelf) speakers. http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_e...oomlayout.html
[It's interesting to see pictures of speakers resembling B&W 802D and 805S.] DTS seems to advocate bookshelf speakers too as surround speakers.

3. THX, on the other hand, recommend the use of dipoles/bipoles as side surround and direct radiating speakers at the rear. http://www.thx.com/home/setup/speakers/71.html

4. Cost-wise, dipoles are more expensive than bookshelves. Bookshelves are more flexible because they can be used as mains, put on stands or hanged in walls. I personally doubt it is ideal to use DS3 as main speakers since its frequency response is not full range. So choose DS3 primarily for its dipole function; its monopole function is secondary.

5. Dipoles give you a closer cinematic experience since they mimic the several bookshelf speakers hanged in cinemas and are recommended for large room with more than one row of seats. On the other hand, monopoles are used by sound engineers in Dolby Digital and DTS when they mix surround sounds so using monopoles would give you surround sounds as the sound engineers intended in the first place.

6. Sound engineers and professional mixers use 5 identical bookshelves (not dipoles, nor floorstanders or center speakers in HT) in reproducing sound effects.

7. Dipoles produce diffused sounds that are difficult to localize while monopoles' sounds can be localized. In some movies, sound engineers intentionally mix surround effects that are meant to be localized (e.g. people talking at the right back of the screen, a car running from the right rear passing through the front, etc.) which cannot be properly reproduced in dipole speakers because of non-localization. However in some movies, the sound effects are best heard diffused (dipoles) and would sound annoying in monopoles.

8. Several blind tests show that listeners prefer dipole over monopole in HT setting. For multichannel music application, monopole is preferred.

9. There are only 322 THX certified DVDs as compared to thousands that are not THX certified. Source: http://www.thx.com/home/dvd/search.html

Summing it up, choosing dipole vs. monopole is a matter of preference and taste, and most importantly whether your HT room has a side wall or not. So with these things in mind, budgetary constraints as well as WAF, I choose 685. Should I go 7.1 someday, I might consider dipoles as side surround...or perhaps stick to monopoles. Let tomorrow worry about itself.