Me 'N Pioneer - Analog HD Inputs vs. Digital HD Signals

[David Meek]

You've probably seen one or more of my comments about my year-old Pioneer Elite Pro 610 HD-ready RPTV. Yeah, I know. What can I say - I love this set. The only drawback this unit has is that the high-def signal inputs accept only an analog signal. With the studios and manufacturers working hard to have only digital signals carrying the full-resolution HD programming and offer an analog signal that is a lower resolution , that would leave me with no way to display a full-resolution picture. I spent way too much money on this top-of-the-heap TV to settle for a down-res'd picture.

Anyway, I've been trying to get Pioneer to let me know what their plans are for those of us that are in this situation. A couple of e-mails went unanswered so I tried again. Here's the e-mail I sent on Monday.

To whom it may concern,

For a little over a year, I have been the proud and extremely satisfied owner of one of your Elite Pro 610 RPTV's. As a result, I have been following the issue of HDTV signal formats with great interest. Can you please inform me of Pioneer's plans to assist your current HTDV owners with reception of FULL RESOLUTION digital HDTV signals? As you are aware, your x10 series of Pro Elite RPTV's does not have an input for digital HD signals. My purchase of a Pro Elite RPTV was done in an effort to acquire the best quality unit available at the time. Now, to consider displaying an image that is down-res'd to something less than full HD resolution via the analog inputs is un-acceptable. I purchased this unit with the expectation that it would provide me with the utmost in HDTV viewing, and at its price point it should, whether the signal is analog or digital in nature.

I eagerly await your response, including Pioneer's plans to upgrade, or failing that, a GENEROUS trade-in arrangement for the x10 and x20 series televisions already purchased by loyal Pioneer enthusiasts.

Sincerely,

Now, here's their initial response.

Thank you for contacting Pioneer Customer Service with your inquiry.

In order to assist you, we will need to speak with you directly. Please call Pioneer Customer Service at (800) 421-1404, Monday through Friday, between the hours of 6:00 AM and 4:30 PM Pacific time.

Sincerely
PIONEER CUSTOMER SERVICE

I'll call them this morning and post my notes of the conversation. Here we go. . . . :uhoh:




David - HTGuide flunky
Our "Theater"
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[JonMarsh]

Very interesting, David.

Please keep us posted, there's lots of owners out there with HD capable sets with only analog inputs, and no defined upgrade path- and by definition, making a digital to analog conversion box as a seperate item is a no-no, because it would bypass the "security".

This whole thing just annoys the heck out of me, :evil: , because NO ONE would probably have bought a lot of this equipment last year or the year before or the year before that if they thought the content providers and the manufacturers were going to collude to make our current equipment potentially obsolete or non-functional.

It's like the limitations on DVD output which vide card manufacturer's now put if they offer a component dongle in addition to RGB- now they'll only do 480P DVD output from a vide board that can easily handle 1280X720- but the studio's don't want users to have upscaled DVD, because they think you'll go out and figure out a way to get a pro component recorder and record the DVD?!? Jeez, folks, the horse is out of the barn- all you have to do is get a Key Digital or Exetron transcoder and convert the RGB to DVD ANYWAY! Still, what home user is going to be able to record that? The pirates will do what they do, and this mickey mouse BS won't deterr them for a microsecond- all this does is limit the options and quality for the people who are paying the bills- the folks like you and me who buy this stuff! :x

Well, at least I can chuckle a little that I have one of the few over the air HD recievers which outputs both RGB and Component at any d*mn resolution you want, and doesn't respond to the down convert bit. Of course, they'll proabably be out of production pretty soon, and by the DMCA act, they're probably "technically" illegal, because of that "design flaw".

It's like the whole Microsoft DRM OS business, adn Palladian- at some point, I suspect I'll stop building new PC's and OS's, because with the total lack of backwards compatibility that Microsoft is admitting for the Longhorn/Palladian release, I've gotten to the point were I'm willing to tell them to take a very long walk off a short pier in deep water.

/rant off


Best regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[David Meek]

This is getting off to about the kind of start I expected. I called the 800 number, punched in all the menu choices and sat on hold for about 5 minutes. I spoke with a representative who immediately transferred me to another department. After sitting on hold for about 10 minutes I was automatically transferred by the phone system back to the initial menu and then after sitting on hold again for about 10 minutes got another representative. She had pity on me and transferred me directly to someone in another department. He and I had a short talk. I was never comfortable he understood my concerns or the issue, so I didn't go into things too deeply with him at all. Here's my paraphrased notes:

me: I explained the issue pretty much as stated in my e-mail
Pioneer: he said basically that "I'd bought a TV designed in 1997 and that Pioneer built it based on the info they had at the time."
me: I asked "Are you saying that I'm out of luck?"
Pioneer: No sir, I'm not saying that.
me: I then restated the problem and added the fact that the govt. had specified the parameters for an HD signal, but the industry is pushing a digital HD solution ONLY because of security concerns and Pioneer had marketed this top-of-the-line product with analog only inputs and said "Are you telling me that I bought a 'pig in a poke'?"
Pioneer: No sir, I'm not saying that. - silence -
me: I guess I'll have to pursue this through other channels then?
Pioneer: Thank you for calling Pioneer.

And that's all I could get out of him. :roll: I've sent in another E-mail asking for a contact number or e-mail address of a person that can assist me with this OTHER than a support desk member. I don't have the text of the message here. I'll post it tonight when I get home.




David - HTGuide flunky
Our "Theater"
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[David Meek]

No response other than the automatic "We've received your message" reply. More tomorrow?

[Chip]

David,

I hope you keep on Pioneer. I'm really interested in how this will pan out for anyone in your situation, including me. For me, i don't feel SOL too much because my 16:9 Mitsubishi 46807 wasn't as significant an investment as some. It's still on my mind though. Good luck.




Chip Engle


"Concrete ain't a spectator sport"


<a href="http://www.htguide.com/bilder/index.cfm?fuseaction=arkivbilder&userid=0&selected userid=336" target="_blank">My HT

[George Bellefontaine]

I had a similar experience with Pioneer Canada when I bought a laserdisc several years ago that had a lot of ghosting. They tried to tell me that was normal. But after making enough noise they did something to correct the problem. You really have to keep bugging these people.




My Homepage!

[Clive]

David, you may need to also send a copy of your correspondence by registered mail. Send an email or letter of "Concern" to some of the local HT mags Editors for support and inform Pioneer of that action for a feedback.
However David, be prepared to maybe do some waiting. Amount other things they do have their hands full, but they will soon forget, so yes, like the gentlemen above me are saying keep bugging them, keep "reminding them".

C.




CLIVE




HEY!! Why buy movie tickets when you can own a Theater?

[David Meek]

Clive, it looks like time is the one thing I do have with this issue. No-one wants to deal with it.

No response from Pioneer yet. Ho hum. :Z




David - HTGuide flunky
Our "Theater"
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[David Meek]

Tomorrow will be a week with no response. I'll send another e-mail in after lunch if nothing shows before. :Z :Z




David - HTGuide flunky
Our "Theater"
Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

[Lex]

I empathize with all you guys. But really, we all knew it was up in the air, that nothing was truly etched in stone. Unfortunately.

That's one of the reasons I waited. Plus, my Pro-119 was still to good a set to trash. Plus I didn't have the cash anyway, lol. Plus, I am not in a major market area anyway.

At least this doesn't impact your ability to get progressive scan DVD. Honestly, stop and think about how much true HD material there is on TV, and will be. Are you really going to be missing that much?

I know it's a pisser. But at the same time, you have to ask, is this really Pioneer's fault and are they truly responsible? I am just asking. Not saying yes or no.

Bottom line, this has been a screwed up deal, from the outset. Doesn't look to get better to soon either.

Lex

[David Meek]

[soap box]

Admittedly, there's not much major network HDTV at all that I'm interested in. Maybe a bit more on the "premium" channels like Showtime. There is more coming all the time. For example: IIRC, the HBO series Band Of Brothers was shown in HD and DD 5.1. That is a 10-show series that YES, I would have watched every minute of.

But that's not the point of this. My question is whether I'll EVER be able to watch future HD programming at full resolution on the set I purchased for that very reason, along with viewing my DVD collection. HDTV was a set-in-stone fact, put there by the government of the United States for our benefit. NOT for the benefit of the studios, the broadcasters or the media pirates. I could care less if digital becomes the only HDTV format as long as the "industry" recognizes the people that put their money out up front for their TV's and projectors by giving us a digital-to-analog converter that doesn't down-res the HDTV image. That's all it'll take to pacify me. There are hundreds of thousands of us that have purchased HD units and we should not be summarily disregarded.

Nothing they can come up with is, or will be, pirate proof - analog, digital, the force, whatever. It isn't going to happen. Also, the pirates are a microscopic percentage of the people that purchase DVD's and will be a microscopic percentage of the people that purchase HD movies on tape, disc or whatever medium there is. People are basically honest social creatures, that are far removed from the "take advantage of" mindset of the industry moguls and their cousins the media pirates. We want to enjoy our movies and TV shows - not sit around and figure out how to break the latest encryption algorythms. For more evidence, look at the sales rates of DVD players and legitimate DVD's. It's escalating like mad. Against that, I know of exactly two persons in ALL the forums I frequent that have purchased bootleg DVD's. One was chastised harshly by every member of that forum that posted to the thread. The other admitted that he'd done it once, and felt guilty enough to never do it again.

My itty-bitty E-mails may not make a single damn difference, but I'm not going to go quietly into the dark.

[/soap box]

David

[Lex]

Well, when you put it that way. Relax David, I was playing devil's advocate a bit there. I just wanted you to realize it's not really Pioneer's fault. Nor do I really think it's their responsibility to clean up someone else's mess. Who's responsibility is it? I guess it comes back to the government and payoffs from hollywood.

But you cannot change standards after the fact. This all boils down to political lobbying. With enough cash, you can get anything changed. It's total bullshit, the govt made a standard, the industry should have to stick with it. or make everything compatible.

Lex

[David Meek]

I'm relaxed boss, really. I feel very firmly and unambiguously about this though. Seriously, this is an issue that should never have been. I realize that there are larger forces at work here than just my opinion, but every little bit helps, right?

I had a very good phone conversation with a more senior person at Pioneer over the weekend and will post my thoughts on it a little later.

- David -

[David Meek]

I was watching a movie this weekend when the phone rang. It turned out that the call was from Pioneer in regards to my E-mails. The conversation lasted between 10 and 15 minutes and was very cordial and open. He also was much, much more aware of the various aspects of this issue than the other person I had spoken with earlier. This person asked me to not use his name on the internet and I will respect that request. His is a mid-level position in the corporation, and he has given me his contact information along with the opportunity to contact him whenever I would like (you don't get that very often).

I'm paraphrasing the conversation, so don't re-post this as "quotes" please.

Initially, I restated my basic position (see E-mail text above) and asked my question again about Pioneer's position on this issue. His response was to say that Pioneer doesn't have an official position at this time. He went on to point out that the various options being considered and debated have not been put into industry-wide practice yet and for Pioneer to try and plan a response to each and every option being discussed wasn't pratical. He admitted that, yes, Mitsubishi has made a verbal commitment to retrofit their customers' TVs to accept whatever standards are finally settled upon, but felt that they had made a promise that might not be do-able from a realistic standpoint. He said that Pioneer is working on/waiting on a consensus to be reached between the major manufacturers and at that point a decision could be made on what, if any, plan of action to take. I asked what I should do as a next step to keep the awareness of this in play at Pioneer. He suggested initially registering all Pioneer equipment a person owns with them via the "Home Registration" button on their Service & Support webpage. This way, an initial path for communications from Pioneer direct to their customers regarding updates etc., can be built via phone, E-mail or postal service. Then he suggested contacting Pioneer just as I have done to voice your opinions.

He gave me his name, title and contact info along with a request to not give his name or other info out on the Internet as part of Pioneer's policy of "speaking with one voice" and using their website as that official voice. Now, if you want to discuss this with him personally, I'll verify that he's okay with you going direct to him and then give you the contact info.

Still, I'm not any closer to having an answer yet. But I do feel a bit better in that I have a contact at Pioneer that is willing to build a dialog with me. It's a first step, and I'll keep you posted on any new developments as they arise.




David - HTGuide flunky
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