Working on the new setup with NAD M50

[sdl2112]

Very cool :T I was about to ask if anyone has reviewed the M50. I went this week to see one myself at the local hifi shop. I asked what they could do and they offered 20% off the M50 and M52 for their demo units...not the M51 as they are in higher demand. I very much look forward to your review! Here's one review.

[impala454]

This is some neat stuff, will be fun to follow. I wish newegg would send me a few of those Samsung 840 1TB SSDs to "review"

[JonMarsh]

Nah......

we are going with one of these bad boys....

total galvanic isolation......

We don't need no stinking cesium clocks!

(hope you do not mind listening with the lights on)

Yeah, but sitting out in the breeze like that, I can't help but wonder about the jitter...

Good enough for time keeping for vinyl, but digital is a little more demanding.... :W

[JonMarsh]

Hey, we have to cheap out, and go with "ordinary" old Rubidium... you do what you have to do, you know?

Speaking of cheaping out, I found the NAD M50 at demo pricing at Audio Advisor, so "pulled the trigger" this AM, as everyone likes to say on the internet... or at least used to like to say?



Today was supposed to be a comp day, and instead I got sucked into a mad scramble over last minute interviews and efforts regarding a potential new hire mainly for HQ, but would be based in our East Coast office- I'll likely be done with that by 2 PM today, but that's been ongoing since 7 AM- not quite a comp day, eh? :W

Other items on the way for the music server side of things, Oyen Digital dual 2.5" raid enclosures, and a set of HGST 7200RPM drives and a set of Samsung 840 EVO drives (plan is that the HD's will e used for CD quality program, the SSD of high res, with faster load times for big files).

From the M50 data sheet you might think that you can only use the M52 drive vault with the back panel USBA connector, but it's always wise to read the owners manual; it tells the real story, and there should be no issue using both the front and rear USB connectors and having 4 TB of local music.

I've already got the iPad app for the M50 loaded on my iPad 4;










I suspect I'm going to be getting some more of these EVO's to load into my Mac mini... an awesome drive for the price!

[wkhanna]

Nah......

we are going with one of these bad boys....

total galvanic isolation......

We don't need no stinking cesium clocks!

(hope you do not mind listening with the lights on)

[impala454]

What, no cesium clock? Gah this setup will sound horrible
:rofl:

[JonMarsh]

Speak(er)ing of NatPs...........

Image not available

Some parts are starting to make the roll in... NatPs will be in the house at some point. Just as soon as Bill and I get the funds in order to continue the build process on mine and upgrade on his!

Looks like both Bill and I will have to keep an eye out for a NAD M51 here..... ha ha!

Woo hoo! :T. Parts is parts!

I got a partial shipment on parts for new midrange crossover build for Isiris yesterday - unfortunately, a bunch was back ordered!

[bigburner]

I would be thrilled just to have one of his old screwdrivers!

Audio sceptics used to say that a coat hanger would be just as good as the most expensive speaker cables. Well I reckon Jon's screwdriver would be even better!

Nigel.

[PewterTA]

Speak(er)ing of NatPs...........

Image not available

Some parts are starting to make the roll in... NatPs will be in the house at some point. Just as soon as Bill and I get the funds in order to continue the build process on mine and upgrade on his!

Looks like both Bill and I will have to keep an eye out for a NAD M51 here..... ha ha!

[wkhanna]

Where does diminishing returns set in? Truthfully, I can't answer that question well, I think it depends on a lot of things. For a duded up pair of NatalieP's, I do not think the M51 would be "diminishing returns"; in fact, that is pretty much the kind of performance I'd recommend. Mind, I don't have enough experience with Wyred for Sound or other players at that price point to make a recommendation- other than, you really should hear an M51 before committing your money. Especially as it really has a clean built in digital volume control and the resolution and noise floor to make good on it. That can result in a simpler more direct system configuration.

I printed this out & pasted on my bathroom mirror.

[Chris D]

Wow, man, you are WAYYYYYYYYY over my head here.

... but my amp goes up to eleven!

[wkhanna]

And on that topic, I think I've said enough! :W

I promise to purge the word Bricasti from my all my files, computers & severs.
I promise never to use, utter, think or speak the word Bircasti for as long as I shall be able to drop the needle while supported only by my walker.

I really gotta get somewhere where I can listen to the M51.......

...........hey Dan.........road trip?

[JonMarsh]

One other bit of info I came across today- in Stereophile's recommended components, the NAD M51 is a Class A+ component, their highest rating, and joining the ranks of units like the Bricasti, the dCS Debussy, the MSB Diamond DAC Plus, the Antelope Zodiac Gold bundle (special power supply) and the Weiss DAC202.


On measurements, the M51 holds up very well, being only slightly edged out in noise floor by the Weiss 2002



Whereas the dCS Debussy



and MSB Diamond Signature



are not quite as good...



And on that topic, I think I've said enough! :W

[wkhanna]

:thud:
Wow, those numbers look V, V similar!
& the M51 looks better in most cases!

...The Bricasti does have a variety of reconstruction filter configurations to play with, but judging from the review, most are variations of bad, IMO. Only 1 or 2 really usable.
...

You are quite correct about the selectable filters on the Bricasti.
Even Brian Zolner, owner & designer of the unit, told us at the Capital Audiofest the multiple filters were superfluous, being incorporated in the newest unit only as a legacy to the original, as customers who were upgrading demanded the old filters be made available.
As a matter of fact, he could be seen all weekend running between the two exhibition rooms where his DAC was in use constantly resetting the filter to the 'minimum' setting, his (and our) preferred adjustment, to ensure attendees were getting a taste of his DAC in its best form.

I really do not get the whole idea of 'selectable' filters, anyway. If the design is executed correctly only the best performing filter should be required. The only advantage I see in adding any other filters is they might end up providing positive correction to deficiencies elsewhere in your system. In which case you should be addressing these deficiencies directly, not spending more $ trying to cover up or compensate for them.

It is almost like putting a "It Could be Worse" button on your system. Just listen to a song or two with some added distortion, then go back to your regular system & all of a sudden your are saying to yourself, "Hey, my system sounds real good like this!". Instant upgrade & look at all the $ you just saved!

IMHO, AFA selections, choices & adjustability goes.........well.....just take look at my signature again.......

Maybe ill get lucky & find a good deal on a used M51 in a year or two.
For now, I will just have to live vicariously thru your adventures & be content knowing my (your design) speakers are ready & willing for the next round of system upgrades. Besides, no matter what, they always will sound good when playing my vinyl.

[JonMarsh]

ha!
Me too!
When Jon says a piece is performing well above its price point, you know you are getting good value.
Wish my budget could absorb one.
I would be thrilled just to have one of his old screwdrivers!
Maybe it would work like one of those magic stones just cuz it was touched by the Maestro?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::r ofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rof l:


Boy, would that ever be a racket!

Now, when you mention Bricasti DAC, I'm guessing/presuming you're talking about the M1 D/A converter? Like this one?

http://www.stereophile.com/content/b...1-da-converter




I've heard of their reverb systems before, for pro sound; my favorite pro sound dealer Sweetwater carries them.

Now, I would not be the guy to say that measurements tell the whole story, but I do think they're instructive and useful, especially with DACs. Power amps, should be clear- speakers are more ambiguous, perhaps... :W (one of the best sounding amps I've heard is a set of JL-1 Signatures with the special hand wound transformers- it's a 100W mono block using KT88's in triode mode, with double the number of tubes you'd see for a normal beam power pentode mode- my friend in Munich acquired a set, and they do sound mighty fine... but I'm curious how they'll stack up against my nCore 400 build once that's done- and vice versa!)

But, back on topic.

Just for fun, a few comparisons, similar to some I've sent out to a friend regarding the Rega DAC.


Bricasti M1 with -90 dB data, swept spectrum response, 16 bit and 24 bit. Almost 20 bits of effective resolution




NAD M51 with -90 dB data, 16 bit and 24 bit; approximately 10 dB lower noise floor- greater than 21 bits of resolution





Bricasti M1 reproduction of -90 dBFS 24 bit sine wave, undithered




NAD M51 reproduction of -90 dBFS 24 bit sine wave, undithered;






Bricasti M1, high-resolution jitter spectrum of analog output signal, 11.025kHz at –6dBFS, sampled at 44.1kHz with LSB toggled at 229Hz: 16-bit data via TosLink from AP SYS2722 (left channel cyan, right magenta), 24-bit data (left blue, right red). Center frequency of trace, 11.025kHz; frequency range, ±3.5kHz.






NAD M51, high-resolution jitter spectrum of analog output signal, 11.025kHz at –6dBFS, sampled at 44.1kHz with LSB toggled at 229Hz: 16-bit data via TosLink from AP SYS2722 (left channel blue, right magenta), 24-bit data (left cyan, right red). Center frequency of trace, 11.025kHz; frequency range, ±3.5kHz.



Here, the Bricasti has a tighter baseband on jitter with 24 bit data, though not apparently with 16 bit data; there, the M51 is better. I'm curious what the internal architecture looks like. It would also be interesting to see how each would perform on this test with something like the Brainstorm DCD8 with atomic clock in the front end to clean up the incoming jitter, and see what the DAC by itself is capable of.

From JA:

The Bricasti M1's rejection of jitter was one of the best I have measured; any jitter-related spuriae lay below the resolution limit of the Miller Analyzer. The cyan and magenta traces in fig.15 show the spectrum of the M1's analog output while it decoded a 16-bit version of the diagnostic J-Test signal via its TosLink input. The spectral lines visible are the residual odd-order harmonics of the low-frequency squarewave; these are not accentuated in any way, nor are any other sidebands visible other than a single pair at ±180Hz, these lying at almost –140dB. With the 24-bit version of the J-Test (blue and red traces), all the squarewave harmonics have disappeared, and the central spike that represents the 11.025kHz tones has narrower skirts. Jitter rejection was just as impressive via the M1's AES/EBU and S/PDIF inputs.

Obviously, for a 4:1 price difference, I think one would want to listen very closely to the Bricasti before committing the moulah. The Bricasti does have a variety of reconstruction filter configurations to play with, but judging from the review, most are variations of bad, IMO. Only 1 or 2 really usable.

Since the review, many parts of the Bricasti design have been upgraded, and Jon Marks has a follow up report in July this year about the Bricasti (of course, the price has gone up, too! )

http://www.stereophile.com/content/b...arks-july-2013


Where does diminishing returns set in? Truthfully, I can't answer that question well, I think it depends on a lot of things. For a duded up pair of NatalieP's, I do not think the M51 would be "diminishing returns"; in fact, that is pretty much the kind of performance I'd recommend. Mind, I don't have enough experience with Wyred for Sound or other players at that price point to make a recommendation- other than, you really should hear an M51 before committing your money. Especially as it really has a clean built in digital volume control and the resolution and noise floor to make good on it. That can result in a simpler more direct system configuration.

Now, my TotalDAC-D1 Dual is definitely a sonic upgrade on the M51, but then in the base D1 single configuration (unbalanced output, one DAC per channel, as opposed to the dual which is actually a dual DAC balanced output) it's priced in a similar range as the Bricasti, but uses very different technology, an R2/R ladder DAC with Vishay foil resistors, not a delta sigma DAC. That's a whole 'nother topic, of course.

Let's look at just one parameter that's easily compared- the step function response of the reconstruction filter.


M51:


Bricasti:




TotalDAC-D1 Frequency response with and without FIR filter



TotalDAC-D1 without FIR filter (option selectable with remote)



TotalDAC-D1 with FIR filter (option selectable with remote)




Oh, and if you want to get all warm and fuzzy audiophile on it, you can now get a version with a very linear low noise vacuum tube output stage





I've heard it, and it's pretty dang good, though maybe a tiny bit softer in the deep bottom end. Coupling caps, you know...

[wkhanna]

On the other hand I've wanted an M51 ever since Jon posted about it.

Nigel.

ha!
Me too!
When Jon says a piece is performing well above its price point, you know you are getting good value.
Wish my budget could absorb one.
I would be thrilled just to have one of his old screwdrivers!
Maybe it would work like one of those magic stones just cuz it was touched by the Maestro?

[bigburner]

our systems are not far off from about 92% of the systems there at FRACTIONS of the price.

I have friends who love their music and they're happy with 91%. The law of diminishing returns is a key feature of our hobby.

On the other hand I've wanted an M51 ever since Jon posted about it.

Nigel.

[bigburner]

I think I'd rather have awesome NAD's to complement my dongle, than try and talk Schiit.

Not bad!

[PewterTA]

What's funny is through the whole show, Bill, our friend James, and myself all agreed that all of our systems are not far off from about 92% of the systems there at FRACTIONS of the price. So it definitely goes to show that when people come together and find what betters their system, it doesn't always mean that you have to spend large amounts.

The Bricasti M1 DAC is somewhat along those lines, competing at DACs in the $25K to $50K, but only at $8500.... So why spend the extra and not get any extra performance??

I can't wait to see what you end up with on all this Jon... I'm going to say it's not going to sound bad AT ALL.

[JonMarsh]

Jon, your schiit is just TOO COOL for SCHOOL!!!!

Back in July I heard the Bricasti DAC in a Tidal system consisting of their $157k Sunray speakers along with their high-end electronics. While your system may not achieve the sense of scale (which in my humble opinion was too large for much of the music I heard on it) that this one did, I can easily imagine it exceeding it in all other areas.

I bet that's an interesting sounding system- but then anything going for over $200K should be! Still, I'm always open for hearing good setups- reminds me of whats possible and is thought provoking. Unfortunately, I've heard some real high priced clunkers at some shows like RMAF, too. Big dollars is no guarantee of great sound...

[aud19]

[Chris D]

I think I'd rather have awesome NAD's to complement my dongle, than try and talk Schiit.

[John Holmes]

Jon, you're the man!

[wkhanna]

Jon, your schiit is just TOO COOL for SCHOOL!!!!

Back in July I heard the Bricasti DAC in a Tidal system consisting of their $157k Sunray speakers along with their high-end electronics. While your system may not achieve the sense of scale (which in my humble opinion was too large for much of the music I heard on it) that this one did, I can easily imagine it exceeding it in all other areas.

[JonMarsh]

Why a Brainstorm, and why an atomic clock?

The Brainstorm DCD8 is one of a small number of digital clock distributors and re-clocking devices that can work with a 10MHz Rubidium atomic clock. Does that really make any difference? Our listening tests almost 4 years ago convinced my friend in Munich and his skeptical wife that it was the way to go. This was when the DCD-8 was paired with Antelope Zodiac Gold, which does include a word clock input. We still find that to be the case, even used with the TotalDAC -D1 which does not have a word clock input, but the DCD8 still provides re-clocking of the data stream prior to the DAC.


This forum post from a Japanese participant I found recently on CA suggests others have experienced much the same thing- the critical point is combining the DCD8 with a rubidium clock:

I'm using DCD-8 as a firewire audio interface and reclocker for more than 1 year.
Recently I replaced CHORD DAC 64Mk2 with Alpha DAC.Now I have similar setup to yours.
At first I compared clock accuracy of DCD-8 internal with Lynx L-22's internal.
Then I could notice almost no difference between them. As long as using DCD-8 with internal clock,it doesn't work more than a firewire audio interface or a DD converter.
8 month ago,I eventually got Thunderbolt GPS Satellite Master Atomic Clock Receiver from eBay.I connected to put 10MHz clock signal from Thunderbolt to DCD-8.
Then I was really amazed at huge improvement in sound stage,and transient.
When I change the clock reference on DCD-8 between internal and 10MHz,I can notice the difference clearly.
So in my case, my conclusion is DCD-8 proves its merit with 10MHz external clock.
Undoubtedly,Alpha DAC has excellent internal clock.But I believe the cleanness(accuracy) of digital signals in the upper stream must have an effect in total sound quality.

From another overseas poster who followed the lead of the first, adding a Trimble clock to his DCD8 based system:

I finally got my Trimble Thunderbolt installed and... wow, what a difference. I am really grateful to you for this suggestion. It is just amazing; no time smear or bleeding of instruments into one another. Just very clean and detailed sound. All intruments are very clearly discernable. I guess this is what you also alluded to when you described your experience from reproducing your counsin's concert at home. I am just listening to Kate Bush and I never before heard so much details.
The new Minimax DAC II is also in my system now, but the biggest improvement remains the Trimble Thunderbolt clocking of the DCD-8. Considering the price, this is nothing short of astonishing.

The only "drag" about using the DCD8 with some systems is that it employs double wire AES above 96 kHz, which some DACs (including dCS, for example) support, and many don't. However, I've located a format converter which accepts word clock inputs and could be a work around other than Downsampling my high res files in Triumph to 88 or 96 kHz. That will be a somewhat expensive test to run, as the ADI-192 is $1599!

RME ADI-192



This is getting a little crazy even for me, but then I do have good experience with my RME Fireface that I use for SACD ripping.

[JonMarsh]

What else is going to be in this chain? I've been agonizing a bit over the Music server aspect- if budget weren't a consideration, then Aurender would be it! But alas, I live in the real world, or rather, my own little impecunious portion of my unreal world, so....


My colleague in Munich has a Sonore server. It's hard to argue with the results.




It uses an internal drive; supplied with 2TB hard disk, my friend has swapped that out for a 500GB SSD. iPhone & iPod app is available; connects via WiFi through the local LAN. And it does sound good. Very good.

Oh, and it's not unreasonable, $2900 for the version with AES/EBU outputs (USB only is less... and in this case, less isn't more...) (we've compared both). But it needs 19V at 2A power, and their power supply will set you back another cool grand. My friend uses an Li battery stack with chargers and Paul Hynes regulators.


Being fond of NAD's recent digital products, I've also been intrigued by the M50 music server (shown here with the M51 DAC).




It has an attractive feature set:

• plays digital music stored anywhere on your home network or attached USB drivers
• compatible with FLAC, WAV, AIFF, ALAC, MP3, WMA, OGG Vorbis,
• Supports sampling rates from 32-192 kHz, 16 or 24 bit
• Built in disk ripping to FLAC and/or MP3 with internal drive; stick it in, everything else is automatic
• Music management/control app available fro iPad, iPhone/iPod Touch
• Re-index command to rebuild data base automatically when new storage is attached or external drives are updated
• Ethernet port for wired connection
• Built in WiFi for wireless connections
• Front and rear panel USB A ports for USB mass storage devices, Linux EXT and FAT32 supported
• Audio Outputs: HDMI 1.4 (stereo only), AES/EBU, Toslink, and coaxial S/PDIF
• Includes a remote control for local operation without wireless app
• Software updatable via USB B port on back panel and ethernet connectivity to internet

It automatically uses the highest resolution source for any program available on the network. This appeals to me for the ease of use and getting GF comfortable with the system AND for adding her own music to the system.

[JonMarsh]

OK, this is going to be a thread about the new setup, or rather, a new build of an old setup we've had working at a colleague's in Germany for several years. However, some details are different, as there won't be a Sonore SOtM (well, not yet... maybe soon, maybe something else like an NAD M50) music server.

Core component for clock and digital path re-clocking is a Brainstorm DCD-8.








This little beastie is found in a lot of studios and video sound stages and post production studios, because of it's clock distribution and sample rate synchronization capabilities, including with HD video sources. On top of that, a key differentiating feature is the ability to use an external 10MHz rubidium atomic clock as it's internal clocking/reference source for digital re-clocking. Rubidium clocks are very accurate, have very low phase noise and jitter (they're widely used in the telecom industry for these reasons, and that's how I got a used one on eBay- taken out of gear. The LPFRS module was originally made in Switzerland, and requires up to 4 A at 24V during startup, tapering off to about 3/4A during normal operation as the oscillator is up to temperature and stabilized.

This morning I finished making power cabled for the input power and and DC power connection from the OMRON SMPS I also bought used on eBay- this is a 24V 4A supply made in Japan, with good quality on the output and some nice control features- a little overkill, I suppose, but what the heck. My friend powers his off of batteries- most of his system runs off Lithium batteries with Paul Hynes regulators. See, I'm really just a pretty normal guy in comparison. :B




I've yet to mount the LPFRS on the heatsink I bought for it; gotta get the thermal interface material first. With an average power dissipation of about 18W, the heatsink is quite necessary. Eventually I'll probably replace this with a new Stanford Research PRS-10, which is what my colleague was using until he fried it (power supply misconnection) and had to send it back for repairs; then he got a used one on eBay! I think he has the SRS one back. By the specs, it has lower phase noise and better longer term performance. Will it make a difference? Don't know...

But this one is pretty good...






For the inquiring minds, here's the output of the oscillator terminated into 50 ohms.




Yeah, make fun of my antique HP scope, but it was cheap, and it is 2GSa/s sampling rate (2 Giga samples per second). And yeah, that's a CRT, but it's a digital display, not a conventional scope tube. No data export, which limits the usefulness, but it's OK for troubleshooting around the house, you know, when your toaster goes on the fritz!

Next step is mounting the heatsink, then it will be programming the DCD8 and testing with an iMac for now.

The DCD8 will be working in dual domain mode, with one domain coming from the server (what ever it is), and the other from the disk playback transport. The DCD8 also includes a high performance Firewire input, and I'll be using that for interfacing to Mac's for testing with my MBP 17, and interface with the late model 21" iMac.

more to come...