Working on the new setup with NAD M50

[JonMarsh]

OK, this is going to be a thread about the new setup, or rather, a new build of an old setup we've had working at a colleague's in Germany for several years. However, some details are different, as there won't be a Sonore SOtM (well, not yet... maybe soon, maybe something else like an NAD M50) music server.

Core component for clock and digital path re-clocking is a Brainstorm DCD-8.








This little beastie is found in a lot of studios and video sound stages and post production studios, because of it's clock distribution and sample rate synchronization capabilities, including with HD video sources. On top of that, a key differentiating feature is the ability to use an external 10MHz rubidium atomic clock as it's internal clocking/reference source for digital re-clocking. Rubidium clocks are very accurate, have very low phase noise and jitter (they're widely used in the telecom industry for these reasons, and that's how I got a used one on eBay- taken out of gear. The LPFRS module was originally made in Switzerland, and requires up to 4 A at 24V during startup, tapering off to about 3/4A during normal operation as the oscillator is up to temperature and stabilized.

This morning I finished making power cabled for the input power and and DC power connection from the OMRON SMPS I also bought used on eBay- this is a 24V 4A supply made in Japan, with good quality on the output and some nice control features- a little overkill, I suppose, but what the heck. My friend powers his off of batteries- most of his system runs off Lithium batteries with Paul Hynes regulators. See, I'm really just a pretty normal guy in comparison. :B




I've yet to mount the LPFRS on the heatsink I bought for it; gotta get the thermal interface material first. With an average power dissipation of about 18W, the heatsink is quite necessary. Eventually I'll probably replace this with a new Stanford Research PRS-10, which is what my colleague was using until he fried it (power supply misconnection) and had to send it back for repairs; then he got a used one on eBay! I think he has the SRS one back. By the specs, it has lower phase noise and better longer term performance. Will it make a difference? Don't know...

But this one is pretty good...






For the inquiring minds, here's the output of the oscillator terminated into 50 ohms.




Yeah, make fun of my antique HP scope, but it was cheap, and it is 2GSa/s sampling rate (2 Giga samples per second). And yeah, that's a CRT, but it's a digital display, not a conventional scope tube. No data export, which limits the usefulness, but it's OK for troubleshooting around the house, you know, when your toaster goes on the fritz!

Next step is mounting the heatsink, then it will be programming the DCD8 and testing with an iMac for now.

The DCD8 will be working in dual domain mode, with one domain coming from the server (what ever it is), and the other from the disk playback transport. The DCD8 also includes a high performance Firewire input, and I'll be using that for interfacing to Mac's for testing with my MBP 17, and interface with the late model 21" iMac.

more to come...

[JonMarsh]

What else is going to be in this chain? I've been agonizing a bit over the Music server aspect- if budget weren't a consideration, then Aurender would be it! But alas, I live in the real world, or rather, my own little impecunious portion of my unreal world, so....


My colleague in Munich has a Sonore server. It's hard to argue with the results.




It uses an internal drive; supplied with 2TB hard disk, my friend has swapped that out for a 500GB SSD. iPhone & iPod app is available; connects via WiFi through the local LAN. And it does sound good. Very good.

Oh, and it's not unreasonable, $2900 for the version with AES/EBU outputs (USB only is less... and in this case, less isn't more...) (we've compared both). But it needs 19V at 2A power, and their power supply will set you back another cool grand. My friend uses an Li battery stack with chargers and Paul Hynes regulators.


Being fond of NAD's recent digital products, I've also been intrigued by the M50 music server (shown here with the M51 DAC).




It has an attractive feature set:

• plays digital music stored anywhere on your home network or attached USB drivers
• compatible with FLAC, WAV, AIFF, ALAC, MP3, WMA, OGG Vorbis,
• Supports sampling rates from 32-192 kHz, 16 or 24 bit
• Built in disk ripping to FLAC and/or MP3 with internal drive; stick it in, everything else is automatic
• Music management/control app available fro iPad, iPhone/iPod Touch
• Re-index command to rebuild data base automatically when new storage is attached or external drives are updated
• Ethernet port for wired connection
• Built in WiFi for wireless connections
• Front and rear panel USB A ports for USB mass storage devices, Linux EXT and FAT32 supported
• Audio Outputs: HDMI 1.4 (stereo only), AES/EBU, Toslink, and coaxial S/PDIF
• Includes a remote control for local operation without wireless app
• Software updatable via USB B port on back panel and ethernet connectivity to internet

It automatically uses the highest resolution source for any program available on the network. This appeals to me for the ease of use and getting GF comfortable with the system AND for adding her own music to the system.

[JonMarsh]

Why a Brainstorm, and why an atomic clock?

The Brainstorm DCD8 is one of a small number of digital clock distributors and re-clocking devices that can work with a 10MHz Rubidium atomic clock. Does that really make any difference? Our listening tests almost 4 years ago convinced my friend in Munich and his skeptical wife that it was the way to go. This was when the DCD-8 was paired with Antelope Zodiac Gold, which does include a word clock input. We still find that to be the case, even used with the TotalDAC -D1 which does not have a word clock input, but the DCD8 still provides re-clocking of the data stream prior to the DAC.


This forum post from a Japanese participant I found recently on CA suggests others have experienced much the same thing- the critical point is combining the DCD8 with a rubidium clock:

I'm using DCD-8 as a firewire audio interface and reclocker for more than 1 year.
Recently I replaced CHORD DAC 64Mk2 with Alpha DAC.Now I have similar setup to yours.
At first I compared clock accuracy of DCD-8 internal with Lynx L-22's internal.
Then I could notice almost no difference between them. As long as using DCD-8 with internal clock,it doesn't work more than a firewire audio interface or a DD converter.
8 month ago,I eventually got Thunderbolt GPS Satellite Master Atomic Clock Receiver from eBay.I connected to put 10MHz clock signal from Thunderbolt to DCD-8.
Then I was really amazed at huge improvement in sound stage,and transient.
When I change the clock reference on DCD-8 between internal and 10MHz,I can notice the difference clearly.
So in my case, my conclusion is DCD-8 proves its merit with 10MHz external clock.
Undoubtedly,Alpha DAC has excellent internal clock.But I believe the cleanness(accuracy) of digital signals in the upper stream must have an effect in total sound quality.

From another overseas poster who followed the lead of the first, adding a Trimble clock to his DCD8 based system:

I finally got my Trimble Thunderbolt installed and... wow, what a difference. I am really grateful to you for this suggestion. It is just amazing; no time smear or bleeding of instruments into one another. Just very clean and detailed sound. All intruments are very clearly discernable. I guess this is what you also alluded to when you described your experience from reproducing your counsin's concert at home. I am just listening to Kate Bush and I never before heard so much details.
The new Minimax DAC II is also in my system now, but the biggest improvement remains the Trimble Thunderbolt clocking of the DCD-8. Considering the price, this is nothing short of astonishing.

The only "drag" about using the DCD8 with some systems is that it employs double wire AES above 96 kHz, which some DACs (including dCS, for example) support, and many don't. However, I've located a format converter which accepts word clock inputs and could be a work around other than Downsampling my high res files in Triumph to 88 or 96 kHz. That will be a somewhat expensive test to run, as the ADI-192 is $1599!

RME ADI-192



This is getting a little crazy even for me, but then I do have good experience with my RME Fireface that I use for SACD ripping.

[wkhanna]

Jon, your schiit is just TOO COOL for SCHOOL!!!!

Back in July I heard the Bricasti DAC in a Tidal system consisting of their $157k Sunray speakers along with their high-end electronics. While your system may not achieve the sense of scale (which in my humble opinion was too large for much of the music I heard on it) that this one did, I can easily imagine it exceeding it in all other areas.

[John Holmes]

Jon, you're the man!

[Chris D]

I think I'd rather have awesome NAD's to complement my dongle, than try and talk Schiit.

[aud19]

[JonMarsh]

Jon, your schiit is just TOO COOL for SCHOOL!!!!

Back in July I heard the Bricasti DAC in a Tidal system consisting of their $157k Sunray speakers along with their high-end electronics. While your system may not achieve the sense of scale (which in my humble opinion was too large for much of the music I heard on it) that this one did, I can easily imagine it exceeding it in all other areas.

I bet that's an interesting sounding system- but then anything going for over $200K should be! Still, I'm always open for hearing good setups- reminds me of whats possible and is thought provoking. Unfortunately, I've heard some real high priced clunkers at some shows like RMAF, too. Big dollars is no guarantee of great sound...

[PewterTA]

What's funny is through the whole show, Bill, our friend James, and myself all agreed that all of our systems are not far off from about 92% of the systems there at FRACTIONS of the price. So it definitely goes to show that when people come together and find what betters their system, it doesn't always mean that you have to spend large amounts.

The Bricasti M1 DAC is somewhat along those lines, competing at DACs in the $25K to $50K, but only at $8500.... So why spend the extra and not get any extra performance??

I can't wait to see what you end up with on all this Jon... I'm going to say it's not going to sound bad AT ALL.

[bigburner]

I think I'd rather have awesome NAD's to complement my dongle, than try and talk Schiit.

Not bad!

[bigburner]

our systems are not far off from about 92% of the systems there at FRACTIONS of the price.

I have friends who love their music and they're happy with 91%. The law of diminishing returns is a key feature of our hobby.

On the other hand I've wanted an M51 ever since Jon posted about it.

Nigel.

[wkhanna]

On the other hand I've wanted an M51 ever since Jon posted about it.

Nigel.

ha!
Me too!
When Jon says a piece is performing well above its price point, you know you are getting good value.
Wish my budget could absorb one.
I would be thrilled just to have one of his old screwdrivers!
Maybe it would work like one of those magic stones just cuz it was touched by the Maestro?

[JonMarsh]

ha!
Me too!
When Jon says a piece is performing well above its price point, you know you are getting good value.
Wish my budget could absorb one.
I would be thrilled just to have one of his old screwdrivers!
Maybe it would work like one of those magic stones just cuz it was touched by the Maestro?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::r ofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rof l:


Boy, would that ever be a racket!

Now, when you mention Bricasti DAC, I'm guessing/presuming you're talking about the M1 D/A converter? Like this one?

http://www.stereophile.com/content/bricasti-design-m1-da-converter

I've heard of their reverb systems before, for pro sound; my favorite pro sound dealer Sweetwater carries them.

Now, I would not be the guy to say that measurements tell the whole story, but I do think they're instructive and useful, especially with DACs. Power amps, should be clear- speakers are more ambiguous, perhaps... :W (one of the best sounding amps I've heard is a set of JL-1 Signatures with the special hand wound transformers- it's a 100W mono block using KT88's in triode mode, with double the number of tubes you'd see for a normal beam power pentode mode- my friend in Munich acquired a set, and they do sound mighty fine... but I'm curious how they'll stack up against my nCore 400 build once that's done- and vice versa!)

But, back on topic.

Just for fun, a few comparisons, similar to some I've sent out to a friend regarding the Rega DAC.


Bricasti M1 with -90 dB data, swept spectrum response, 16 bit and 24 bit. Almost 20 bits of effective resolution




NAD M51 with -90 dB data, 16 bit and 24 bit; approximately 10 dB lower noise floor- greater than 21 bits of resolution





Bricasti M1 reproduction of -90 dBFS 24 bit sine wave, undithered




NAD M51 reproduction of -90 dBFS 24 bit sine wave, undithered;






Bricasti M1, high-resolution jitter spectrum of analog output signal, 11.025kHz at –6dBFS, sampled at 44.1kHz with LSB toggled at 229Hz: 16-bit data via TosLink from AP SYS2722 (left channel cyan, right magenta), 24-bit data (left blue, right red). Center frequency of trace, 11.025kHz; frequency range, ±3.5kHz.






NAD M51, high-resolution jitter spectrum of analog output signal, 11.025kHz at –6dBFS, sampled at 44.1kHz with LSB toggled at 229Hz: 16-bit data via TosLink from AP SYS2722 (left channel blue, right magenta), 24-bit data (left cyan, right red). Center frequency of trace, 11.025kHz; frequency range, ±3.5kHz.



Here, the Bricasti has a tighter baseband on jitter with 24 bit data, though not apparently with 16 bit data; there, the M51 is better. I'm curious what the internal architecture looks like. It would also be interesting to see how each would perform on this test with something like the Brainstorm DCD8 with atomic clock in the front end to clean up the incoming jitter, and see what the DAC by itself is capable of.

From JA:

The Bricasti M1's rejection of jitter was one of the best I have measured; any jitter-related spuriae lay below the resolution limit of the Miller Analyzer. The cyan and magenta traces in fig.15 show the spectrum of the M1's analog output while it decoded a 16-bit version of the diagnostic J-Test signal via its TosLink input. The spectral lines visible are the residual odd-order harmonics of the low-frequency squarewave; these are not accentuated in any way, nor are any other sidebands visible other than a single pair at ±180Hz, these lying at almost –140dB. With the 24-bit version of the J-Test (blue and red traces), all the squarewave harmonics have disappeared, and the central spike that represents the 11.025kHz tones has narrower skirts. Jitter rejection was just as impressive via the M1's AES/EBU and S/PDIF inputs.

Obviously, for a 4:1 price difference, I think one would want to listen very closely to the Bricasti before committing the moulah. The Bricasti does have a variety of reconstruction filter configurations to play with, but judging from the review, most are variations of bad, IMO. Only 1 or 2 really usable.

Since the review, many parts of the Bricasti design have been upgraded, and Jon Marks has a follow up report in July this year about the Bricasti (of course, the price has gone up, too! )

http://www.stereophile.com/content/bricasti-design-m1-da-converter-john-marks-july-2013

Where does diminishing returns set in? Truthfully, I can't answer that question well, I think it depends on a lot of things. For a duded up pair of NatalieP's, I do not think the M51 would be "diminishing returns"; in fact, that is pretty much the kind of performance I'd recommend. Mind, I don't have enough experience with Wyred for Sound or other players at that price point to make a recommendation- other than, you really should hear an M51 before committing your money. Especially as it really has a clean built in digital volume control and the resolution and noise floor to make good on it. That can result in a simpler more direct system configuration.

Now, my TotalDAC-D1 Dual is definitely a sonic upgrade on the M51, but then in the base D1 single configuration (unbalanced output, one DAC per channel, as opposed to the dual which is actually a dual DAC balanced output) it's priced in a similar range as the Bricasti, but uses very different technology, an R2/R ladder DAC with Vishay foil resistors, not a delta sigma DAC. That's a whole 'nother topic, of course.

Let's look at just one parameter that's easily compared- the step function response of the reconstruction filter.


M51:


Bricasti:




TotalDAC-D1 Frequency response with and without FIR filter



TotalDAC-D1 without FIR filter (option selectable with remote)



TotalDAC-D1 with FIR filter (option selectable with remote)




Oh, and if you want to get all warm and fuzzy audiophile on it, you can now get a version with a very linear low noise vacuum tube output stage





I've heard it, and it's pretty dang good, though maybe a tiny bit softer in the deep bottom end. Coupling caps, you know...

[wkhanna]

:thud:
Wow, those numbers look V, V similar!
& the M51 looks better in most cases!

...The Bricasti does have a variety of reconstruction filter configurations to play with, but judging from the review, most are variations of bad, IMO. Only 1 or 2 really usable.
...

You are quite correct about the selectable filters on the Bricasti.
Even Brian Zolner, owner & designer of the unit, told us at the Capital Audiofest the multiple filters were superfluous, being incorporated in the newest unit only as a legacy to the original, as customers who were upgrading demanded the old filters be made available.
As a matter of fact, he could be seen all weekend running between the two exhibition rooms where his DAC was in use constantly resetting the filter to the 'minimum' setting, his (and our) preferred adjustment, to ensure attendees were getting a taste of his DAC in its best form.

I really do not get the whole idea of 'selectable' filters, anyway. If the design is executed correctly only the best performing filter should be required. The only advantage I see in adding any other filters is they might end up providing positive correction to deficiencies elsewhere in your system. In which case you should be addressing these deficiencies directly, not spending more $ trying to cover up or compensate for them.

It is almost like putting a "It Could be Worse" button on your system. Just listen to a song or two with some added distortion, then go back to your regular system & all of a sudden your are saying to yourself, "Hey, my system sounds real good like this!". Instant upgrade & look at all the $ you just saved!

IMHO, AFA selections, choices & adjustability goes.........well.....just take look at my signature again.......

Maybe ill get lucky & find a good deal on a used M51 in a year or two.
For now, I will just have to live vicariously thru your adventures & be content knowing my (your design) speakers are ready & willing for the next round of system upgrades. Besides, no matter what, they always will sound good when playing my vinyl.

[JonMarsh]

One other bit of info I came across today- in Stereophile's recommended components, the NAD M51 is a Class A+ component, their highest rating, and joining the ranks of units like the Bricasti, the dCS Debussy, the MSB Diamond DAC Plus, the Antelope Zodiac Gold bundle (special power supply) and the Weiss DAC202.


On measurements, the M51 holds up very well, being only slightly edged out in noise floor by the Weiss 2002



Whereas the dCS Debussy



and MSB Diamond Signature



are not quite as good...



And on that topic, I think I've said enough! :W

[wkhanna]

And on that topic, I think I've said enough! :W

I promise to purge the word Bricasti from my all my files, computers & severs.
I promise never to use, utter, think or speak the word Bircasti for as long as I shall be able to drop the needle while supported only by my walker.

I really gotta get somewhere where I can listen to the M51.......

...........hey Dan.........road trip?

[Chris D]

Wow, man, you are WAYYYYYYYYY over my head here.

... but my amp goes up to eleven!

[wkhanna]

Where does diminishing returns set in? Truthfully, I can't answer that question well, I think it depends on a lot of things. For a duded up pair of NatalieP's, I do not think the M51 would be "diminishing returns"; in fact, that is pretty much the kind of performance I'd recommend. Mind, I don't have enough experience with Wyred for Sound or other players at that price point to make a recommendation- other than, you really should hear an M51 before committing your money. Especially as it really has a clean built in digital volume control and the resolution and noise floor to make good on it. That can result in a simpler more direct system configuration.

I printed this out & pasted on my bathroom mirror.

[PewterTA]

Speak(er)ing of NatPs...........



Some parts are starting to make the roll in... NatPs will be in the house at some point. Just as soon as Bill and I get the funds in order to continue the build process on mine and upgrade on his!

Looks like both Bill and I will have to keep an eye out for a NAD M51 here..... ha ha!

[bigburner]

I would be thrilled just to have one of his old screwdrivers!

Audio sceptics used to say that a coat hanger would be just as good as the most expensive speaker cables. Well I reckon Jon's screwdriver would be even better!

Nigel.

[JonMarsh]

Speak(er)ing of NatPs...........



Some parts are starting to make the roll in... NatPs will be in the house at some point. Just as soon as Bill and I get the funds in order to continue the build process on mine and upgrade on his!

Looks like both Bill and I will have to keep an eye out for a NAD M51 here..... ha ha!

Woo hoo! :T. Parts is parts!

I got a partial shipment on parts for new midrange crossover build for Isiris yesterday - unfortunately, a bunch was back ordered!

[impala454]

What, no cesium clock? Gah this setup will sound horrible
:rofl:

[wkhanna]

Nah......

we are going with one of these bad boys....

total galvanic isolation......

We don't need no stinking cesium clocks!

(hope you do not mind listening with the lights on)

[JonMarsh]

Hey, we have to cheap out, and go with "ordinary" old Rubidium... you do what you have to do, you know?

Speaking of cheaping out, I found the NAD M50 at demo pricing at Audio Advisor, so "pulled the trigger" this AM, as everyone likes to say on the internet... or at least used to like to say?



Today was supposed to be a comp day, and instead I got sucked into a mad scramble over last minute interviews and efforts regarding a potential new hire mainly for HQ, but would be based in our East Coast office- I'll likely be done with that by 2 PM today, but that's been ongoing since 7 AM- not quite a comp day, eh? :W

Other items on the way for the music server side of things, Oyen Digital dual 2.5" raid enclosures, and a set of HGST 7200RPM drives and a set of Samsung 840 EVO drives (plan is that the HD's will e used for CD quality program, the SSD of high res, with faster load times for big files).

From the M50 data sheet you might think that you can only use the M52 drive vault with the back panel USBA connector, but it's always wise to read the owners manual; it tells the real story, and there should be no issue using both the front and rear USB connectors and having 4 TB of local music.

I've already got the iPad app for the M50 loaded on my iPad 4;










I suspect I'm going to be getting some more of these EVO's to load into my Mac mini... an awesome drive for the price!

[JonMarsh]

Nah......

we are going with one of these bad boys....

total galvanic isolation......

We don't need no stinking cesium clocks!

(hope you do not mind listening with the lights on)

Yeah, but sitting out in the breeze like that, I can't help but wonder about the jitter...

Good enough for time keeping for vinyl, but digital is a little more demanding.... :W

[impala454]

This is some neat stuff, will be fun to follow. I wish newegg would send me a few of those Samsung 840 1TB SSDs to "review"

[sdl2112]

Very cool :T I was about to ask if anyone has reviewed the M50. I went this week to see one myself at the local hifi shop. I asked what they could do and they offered 20% off the M50 and M52 for their demo units...not the M51 as they are in higher demand. I very much look forward to your review! Here's one review.

[JonMarsh]

Very cool :T I was about to ask if anyone has reviewed the M50. I went this week to see one myself at the local hifi shop. I asked what they could do and they offered 20% off the M50 and M52 for their demo units...not the M51 as they are in higher demand. I very much look forward to your review! Here's one review.

Yes, I got notice it shipped today, and I'm really looking forward to it. I have a late model 21" iMac that was bought to work in this system, but thinking about how to make it more plug and play for GF, I turned to researching the M50, which I'd heard about early this year, before it was available in the USA. Thanks for posting the link, I've seen that review too, and it was part of what pushed me into moving forward after doing the rest of my research. Yeah, if money were no object, an Aurender would be the real deal, and one could make arguments for the Sonore SOtM, like my friend has. But this has a better mix of usability features, and with being re-clocked by the Brainstorm, I think the sonic results should be very good. We'll see... I should have it by mid week and be able to start loading music and checking it out here, before taking it over to GF's where the big system resides.

More work on the crossovers for that, including a mild re-design (actually reducing the value of some components) that should improve the low midrange blend. Still a work in progress, but I think it's much closer to done now, pending completing construction after the arrival of the backordered crossover parts!

[PewterTA]

I can't wait to see what you think about the M50 as well. All this talk is making me want the M51.... Ugh decisions decisions.... Though I still want to hear a lot of other Schiit as well to find what works best in my system. ha ha.

Jon, feel free to come to Pittsburgh with all your stuff whenever you want..... WKHanna and I would LOVE to hang out and hear everything!!!! :B

[JonMarsh]

Hmmm, wonder what size freight container that would require? I think it would be beyond the realm of carryon. :W

In other related "news" I found a couple of neat 12V linear power supplies designed for audio applications on eBay, from a vendor in Australia, which I've ordered to power the mini Raid boxes with low EMI power sources. Not batteries, but not a switcher, either.

[Hdale85]

Those look nice! Although he could of been a bit more classy with the name? lol

[wkhanna]

But I can see the spinach in it!

[JonMarsh]

I think the name is perfect! After all, we shouldn't be taking ourselves too seriously with all this stuff- keep the Doc Emmet Brown outlook! Tongue planted at least somewhat firmly in cheek...

Great Scott! Popeye Power from Australia!?!! What will you do next, future boy? Fusion powered music servers? Is spinach the key to cold fusion?!?

[PewterTA]

[JonMarsh]

The mini RAID boxes arrived today, along with the two HGST 7200 RPM drives. It only took a few minutes to assemble the drives in the carriers, slap it all together, configure for RAID 0, and format in FAT32 with my MacBook. Also, the thermal interface material for the rubidium clock heatsink from Bergquist arrived. Fed Ex confirms the NAD M50 should arrive by Wednesday, though it's already hit Oakland today. Could be here tomorrow!

[JonMarsh]

M50 testing under way...

Well, FedEx brought nice things today, and some setup and testing is underway.




A lot of potential, but moral of the story is that even if you read owner's manuals carefully, the full details may not be revealed?

As near as I can determine, you CAN use either the front panel USB A input or the rear panel USB A input for a drive with data you put on via a computer, the built in ripper only wants to function if there is an M52 digital vault from NAD connected to the rear USB A input- it doesn't seem to recognize a standard drive for that purpose. Also, interestingly, NAD states that the M52 digital vault cannot be read on a Mac or PC. (well, it's probably using a Linux file system, so that's likely only partly true, but you get the gist. In the end, I'd say things could be spelled out more clearly.

Also, with my weird blend of music, it has trouble finding album art in a lot of cases.

OTOH, the playback appears to be just fine, sounds very good on this quick test setup with my big Shure cans, and the NAD app on the iPad works pretty well. Also did one firmware upgrade without issues. Currently running it wired on ethernet, haven't setup the WiFi, as I won't be using that here anyway.

Promising. I just had a big folder of stuff ripped using XLD, and copied that to the baby mini as a test case. Need to add to it, and ponder if I want the local ripping too- that was the idea to make it easy, but $2k is a steep price for the M51- for that I just may ripp off line. Also, it finds outside music on the local network, too. Will have to play with that, though I figure it's likely better off with the local drives.

[Chris D]

You have some big NAD's, man.

[wkhanna]

That is the thing for me about computer audio……unless you are adept & comfortable creating & manipulating all these firmware & software configurations……..well, I will just say if it were not for Dan, I could never get a system configured & performing as well as he has mine working. I really envy the ones who can do this & make it look so easy while doing it.

I am sure as time passes & the technology matures, the equipment will be more user-friendly to those who do not possess the skills required to customize the set-up & get the V good performance these things are capable of.

Totally, off topic…….. I do not think there is anything in the world that makes Chris happier than being able to crack a NAD joke!
Have a banana, Chris!

:dancenana:

[Chris D]

Ah... nothing like a big banana and a nice warm pair of NADs.

[JonMarsh]

Been using some deductive reasoning, as the owners manual ain't that great...

Well, the problem as I see it with a topic as complex as computer audio (this IS computer audio, it's just a non-programmable ARM based computer running Linux or something similar), is that at the current state of development, you really need to know the why's and wherefore's of what to do, not just "Do this".

I say that coming from Computer audio experience dating back to 2005 with a dedicated home built PC, and migrating through various Mac incarnations and players. Oddly, iTunes insulates you from needing to know all that much - but unfortunately, in this day and age's expectation for playback quality, it's not the last word in that area and not suited for a "high end" system.

Any way, a few light bulbs have been popping since early yesterday evening, and I think I can further clarify what the NAD M50 does and doesn't do. I wish some of that had been in the owners manual, as well as a broader overview- that would be a real service to their users, and I fully intend to give NAD some lengthy user feedback. In retrospect, some of these behaviors seem quite logical, but not necessarily expected if you've been using PC or Mac based players.

OK!

Now, where are we? OK, here's the deal. Near as I can figure out, with the latest firmware, the NAD will not even read a standard FAT32 USB drive on the rear panel USB A connector. Works fine on the front panel connector, though.

Exactly how you put the files on your USB drive is never explained or suggested in the manual. I have a file/folder structure that is not dissimilar to what the iTunes Library looks like, but it's been created and managed manually, for the most part using XLD for ripping.

Album Art. Or lack thereof. Surmise: When you use the NAD M50 to rip to flac, it goes out on the internet, getting the file info, AND the album art, and embeds the art in the Flac files. (this is the "proper" way to do this, though iTunes doesn't embed art in files, for example). If you bring in AIFF or FLAC files that don't have album art, well, then, by golly, it doesn't seem that the M50 will display any album art on the iPad App. I did specifically bring in album art for some of my rips, dragging and dropping, but not for most- this is reflected in what is shown on the M50 iPad app, and no amount of hitting the "Refresh Album Art" tab in the configuration menu changes that.

So, where does that leave me? Well, we all know AIFF supports embedded album art, as does FLAC. I've just checked on line, and ALAC does support embedded album art, though I don't think by default that if you rip with iTunes that any is embedded- it's maintained in the iTunes data base, instead. I might be wrong on that; we'll be testing that theory soon.

About 40% of my CD based material is ripped using AIFF; the rest is ALAC (Apple Lossless; think of it as Apple's version of FLAC). I did a lot of ALAC ripping in the late 2000's on my Mac Pro, until I found out many players don't support it. Lucky for me, the NAD M50 does. ALAC has low overhead requirements for decoding, and is moderately space efficient, as is FLAC, compared with AIFF, which isn't compressed.

What to do? Well, Max to the rescue, I think, in this case.

http://sbooth.org/Max/

Isn't it hilarious seeing OSX screenshots in the old Aqua interface? I don't boot up my quad core Powermac very often, which is the only system I have left still running an old version of OSX like this. BTW, you don't need anywhere this number of windows to edit metadata!

Among the many things Max does (besides format re-coding, say converting from ALAC to AIFF or whatever) is meta data editing, including adding album art embedded into files. It works directly with MusicBrainz to get information, and of course there's drag and drop from Amazon images in a pinch. So, it looks like I can use my existing files with some additional updating work on the Mac. I already have a couple of 2TB music lib disks, so setting one up for this, and making it a "mirror/reference" of sorts for the little RAID drive I built shouldn't be a problem, IT JUST TAKES MORE TIME DOING ESSENTIALLY MINDLESS THINGS WHEN I'D RATHER BE SPENDING MY TIME ON HIGH VALUE WORK LIKE SPEAKER DESIGN AND SPEAKER BUILDING!!!! :evil:

Well.

Now that I've got that out of my system, I suppose I should just get back to work, and decrypt the file from HQ regarding one of my big local customers in the automotive sphere...

Somehow, even though it's my Birthday, I don't think my honey is going to pop for an NAD M52 music vault array, so I'm going to have to ponder the pro's and cons of that myself, and whether having really easy ripping for her is worth $2K.... for keeping the peace and everyone happy, it just may be.

And now, I've learned what I MUST do in all future ripping operations!

[wkhanna]

Ah... nothing like a big banana and a nice warm pair of NADs.

:thud:

Your killing me, Chris........

[PewterTA]

Raid 0... what about failure?!?

[JonMarsh]

My little RAID box is RAID 0, and at all times fully backed up. The NAD M50 is RAID 5, redundant, can suffer one drive failure without problems, and rebuild on that.

[wkhanna]

Well, the problem as I see it with a topic as complex as computer audio (this IS computer audio, it's just a non-programmable ARM based computer running Linux or something similar), is that at the current state of development, you really need to know the why's and wherefore's of what to do, not just "Do this".

I say that coming from Computer audio experience dating back to 2005 with a dedicated home built PC, and migrating through various Mac incarnations and players. Oddly, iTunes insulates you from needing to know all that much - but unfortunately, in this day and age's expectation for playback quality, it's not the last word in that area and not suited for a "high end" system.

Yes, I was referring to OTI (other than iTunes).

Among the many things Max does (besides format re-coding, say converting from ALAC to AIFF or whatever) is meta data editing, including adding album art embedded into files.........

Well, Max to the rescue, I think, in this case.........

http://sbooth.org/Max/

And now, I've learned what I MUST do in all future ripping operations!

Neat app!
I have to agree that managing metadata - especially cover art - is one of the biggest PITA's with CA.

Somehow, even though it's my Birthday.........

Whoa!!!!!!!!!
Hold Everything!!!!!!!
Did you Say ‘Birthday’!

Well dag-nabbitt!!!!!!!

That should automatically be a day off for speaker design, speaker building, guitar & keyboard practice & any other diversion you could desire. Tell the boss I said it is OK for you to stay home today!

Happy B-Day, Maestro!



:dancenana: :dancenana: arty: :dancenana: :dancenana:

[JonMarsh]

Thanks! Actually, I was supposed to have a comp day last Friday, now I'm going to try to take it tomorrow- hopefully that will work out! But today is filled with work activities- including now giving formal feedback on my boss to the US CEO. Nothing delicate or worrisome about that, no, just some straightforward shoot from the hip stuff, yeah? :W

I'm feeling even more cynical that usual on topics like that, due to some feedback from HQ on some capabilities one of the tech app teams is just now adding... but still not quite up to some stuff I've been doing locally already for a US customer. Of course, they'll probably sprain a wrist from patting themselves on the back that at least they can do some new things now...

OK, enough of that!

Either party today, or tomorrow! (actually, we are going out to dinner and a play this evening... so my mood will improve rapidly after 5!)