In quest of budget reclocking

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  • PewterTA
    Moderator
    • Nov 2004
    • 2901

    In quest of budget reclocking

    Jon brought up a good point that since we sort of side tracked the other thread, we'll bring this whole discussion into it's own thread.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jon,

    Bill and I were discussing this all this weekend, that we may need to re-clock our audio. Then it got me thinking if I'm thinking about this right... it helps for me to put into a visual placement of things in my system to make sure I'm on the right track.

    So for both of our setups, we currently have things set up this way, Server feeding the audio files to a HTPC (well in my case as Bill uses his server for playback), then outputted via USB to a Musical Fidelity V-Link 192 then coaxial out to our DACs. I just recently added an iFi USB power to the V-Link...but that's not a real difference.

    So in our systems, we would build the rubidium clock for 10MHz. Then plug that into Mutec MC-3+, setting it to use the external rubidium clock then place the MC-3+ in-between the V-Link and our DACs. This way the Mutec would re-clock the audio signal with the rubidium clock and feed the DAC with that new signal. At least in my mind that's what we'd be doing. Now if we upgrade to something like the NAD M51, we'd change out the coaxial for AES and eventually remove the V-Link192 as that's another weak point.

    Am I thinking correctly about this?

    I think as long as you say positive things about this... Bill and I are definitely thinking this is a worth while upgrade path (as well as trying to find a NAD shipping truck and trailing it until something falls off)... ha ha.
    Last edited by PewterTA; 03 October 2013, 19:35 Thursday. Reason: Keeping the place clean and tiddy.
    Digital Audio makes me Happy.
    -Dan
  • PewterTA
    Moderator
    • Nov 2004
    • 2901

    #2
    On a side note, I think Bill and I want to come out and hear your system... I think we can only imagine how good it must sound!!!
    Digital Audio makes me Happy.
    -Dan

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15261

      #3
      Originally posted by PewterTA
      Jon,



      So in our systems, we would build the rubidium clock for 10MHz. Then plug that into Mutec MC-3+, setting it to use the external rubidium clock then place the MC-3+ in-between the V-Link and our DACs. This way the Mutec would re-clock the audio signal with the rubidium clock and feed the DAC with that new signal. At least in my mind that's what we'd be doing. Now if we upgrade to something like the NAD M51, we'd change out the coaxial for AES and eventually remove the V-Link192 as that's another weak point.

      Am I thinking correctly about this?

      I think as long as you say positive things about this... Bill and I are definitely thinking this is a worth while upgrade path (as well as trying to find a NAD shipping truck and trailing it until something falls off)... ha ha.
      Yeah, you've got the basic idea down. :T

      Keep in mind, to date we have tested this concept with just the Brainstorm DCD8 and two rubidium clocks- one the used Swiss model from eBay, and the other a Stanford research PRS10.


      DAC's this has been tested with include the Antelope Zodiac Gold (first time the configuration has been tested and fully implemented) and with TotalDAC-D1 Dual (both with the PRS10 and the LPFRS).

      My colleague in Munich had some positive results this weekend, and some issues, with the Mutec MC-3 Plus, but then he's trying to integrate it into his system in addition to the Brainstorm DCD8, which is not very practical (IMO) unless you run them off the same 10 MHz clock, or use two clocks which are both locked to GPS. Technically doable, but I'd really rather not go there. It's starting to look WAY too much like my Mr Fusion research project at that stage, and not something you want to put in your living room!

      What I will be doing in the near term once the Mutec is here, is testing it with the LPFRS with my TotalDAC-D1 Dual, with my Berkeley Alpha DAC, and with my NAD M51. I also plan to buy an SRS PRS10 by around Xmas time if things don't go completely sideways at work, but that's a big if at the moment, so we'll see. I have a presentation put together comparing the two clock systems for another friend, and will create images from that and post here this weekend if I can find the time.

      What I can't really predict is how much delta-sigma type DACs may improve using this clocking technology, as some feel that they have some specific issues which present an upper limit on HF performance. Interestingly, I've been in contact with quite a mix of guys who have "upgraded" to M51's, even when the M51 didn't cost more than the DAC they were leaving behind. The top of the line Wyred4Sound DAC comes to mind...

      What remains to be seen is how much the M51 benefits from reclocking. I will say this is program material and source dependent- if you listen to recordings with a bona fide original acoustic on them, like the Sheffield Harry James, or minimal mic classical, or Jazz at the Paownshop, etc, I find there is more of an impact. On the other hand, the overall definition, especially with complex program material always benefits to a degree. So yeah, I like the Hooters's "Nervous Nights" with it, too, and no one would call that an audiophile recording- but it ameliorates a lot of the issues with the frequency response and hardness from real high level HF stuff.

      OTOH, the TotalDAC-D1 has it's own reclocker/digital time lens built in, and we've found that the DCD8 and even a second TotalDAC reclocker improve things with the right program material. Some days when I think about that, it's enough to make my head explode.

      One guy in France is using a TotalDAC-D1 with an S-10 Aurender, and two TotalDAC re-clockers chained in series before the D1. But he doesn't have a 10MHz capable clock system like the DCD8.

      Sooooo, we just have to see, and in all cases, I say, trust your ears, not anyone's technical rationalization.

      Stay tuned for developments.
      the AudioWorx
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      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15261

        #4
        An overview presentation I put together on two 10MHz clocks for reclocking....


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        Last edited by theSven; 24 March 2023, 16:53 Friday. Reason: Update image location
        the AudioWorx
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        Comment

        • impala454
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Oct 2007
          • 3814

          #5
          I feel like I'm looking at a presentation at work (NASA) for some part we're going to fly on orbit. Very impressive :T
          -Chuck

          Comment

          • wkhanna
            Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
            • Jan 2006
            • 5673

            #6
            A most complete & informative dissertation, Maestro.

            Are there preferences regarding the PS's?

            Can/should the same PS be used for both devices?
            _


            Bill

            Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
            ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

            FinleyAudio

            Comment

            • wkhanna
              Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
              • Jan 2006
              • 5673

              #7
              Originally posted by impala454
              I feel like I'm looking at a presentation at work (NASA) for some part we're going to fly on orbit. Very impressive :T
              At least you can 'feel' like your at work (NASA).
              I heard the Anarchists in DC were giving you the day off!
              _


              Bill

              Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
              ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

              FinleyAudio

              Comment

              • impala454
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Oct 2007
                • 3814

                #8
                I'm a contractor so still able to work, but see the Homebrew thread for that talk as I don't want to sidetrack this one.
                -Chuck

                Comment

                • wkhanna
                  Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                  • Jan 2006
                  • 5673

                  #9
                  Originally posted by impala454
                  I'm a contractor so still able to work, but see the Homebrew thread for that talk as I don't want to sidetrack this one.
                  Agreed...Just glad to hear you avoided the madness.
                  _


                  Bill

                  Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                  ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                  FinleyAudio

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15261

                    #10
                    Originally posted by wkhanna
                    A most complete & informative dissertation, Maestro.

                    Are there preferences regarding the PS's?

                    Can/should the same PS be used for both devices?
                    Actually, both devices have the same power requirements- the way these things are built, most are patterned after another earlier entry into this market.

                    Now, for a slightly mind blowing update- after querying my overseas colleague on this topic a bit, he came back with the results of his listening tests, which he is at a loss to explain why, but after several sessions and consistent results, all I can say is that you can save yourselves some money....


                    So here is what I experienced:
                    I used each one through a different input of the DCD. Both inputs showed clearly that DCD had locked on to the signal. Now I could easily toggle between the two references. The two differences I heard (& consistantly) were :
                    - bass was much better in one than the other & piano was clearly sharper & again, like with the Bass, the decay long (felt endless)
                    - simply more "back ground sounds" in the music than otherwise

                    Both these effects I felt with the "china" one, rather than with the PRS10.

                    so, while I would always suggest making your own judgements, I don't want to make my own enough in this matter to spend the $1750 or so for a complete PRS10 setup. (Note, the PRS10 is quite reasonable compared with say, an Antelope Audio Isochrone 10M).





                    But I will buy another LPFRS or two for a backup and secondary system.
                    the AudioWorx
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                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • wkhanna
                      Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                      • Jan 2006
                      • 5673

                      #11
                      Originally posted by JonMarsh
                      (Note, the PRS10 is quite reasonable compared with say, an Antelope Audio Isochrone 10M).




                      We don't need no stink'n Antelope.......We got Honey Badger.....


                      _


                      Bill

                      Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                      ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                      FinleyAudio

                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 15261

                        #12
                        Is Honey Badger now the new official mascot of the Digital Audio Section?

                        You young moderators are always innovating so much around here, it's hard for an old school guy like me to keep up! :W


                        Well, I got notice yesterday evening that the Mutec MC-3 Plus shipped yesterday, Next Day Air, so it should hit the doorstep this AM, but I won't be there to sign for it, so I probably won't have it in my grubby hands until tomorrow after signing the form for it tonight.

                        By this weekend I should be in shape to start evaluating some things in the system, at least on a preliminary basis- though I still have some setup and configuration things to attend to before then, if there's any time (not likely!). I also got shipping and tracking confirmation on an NAD M52, which should deliver on Friday. Probably will have the same signature problem, though there's a small chance I'll be at home as the guy who's our handler for this customer site assignment is taking Friday off- not clear how that will affect my employer's team there.

                        Oh, and I ordered another LPFRS. Got shipping notice from HK this morning. Get 'em while they're hot, or at least available. Now, there are other oscillator systems on eBay that can work, I know some guys that have used the GPS disciplined Trimble 10MHz with the Brainstorm DCD8, but I have no direct experience.

                        And I haven't made any more progress since Sunday on the 'T's.

                        But still, I think we're making progress... a lot of stuff to sort out still.
                        the AudioWorx
                        Natalie P
                        M8ta
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                        Modula Xtreme
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                        SMJ
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                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                        Comment

                        • wkhanna
                          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 5673

                          #13
                          Originally posted by The Maestro
                          Is Honey Badger now the new official mascot of the Digital Audio Section?
                          I'll leave that up to Dan, he is moderator here.....though I would certainly offer up no protest. :W

                          Originally posted by The Maestro
                          You young moderators .....
                          Such self evident flattery will get you far with me! :lol:



                          Originally posted by The Maestro
                          ...it should hit the doorstep this AM, but I won't be there to sign for it, so I probably won't have it in my grubby hands until tomorrow after signing the form for it tonight.
                          FWIW, I have had success leaving a signed & dated note with the tracking/order# taped to my front door stating it is acceptable to leave the package on my porch. Not saying it will work all the time with every shipper, but it has saved a day or two in many instances.

                          Originally posted by The Maestro
                          .........I ordered another LPFRS.............. Get 'em while they're hot, or at least available. Now, there are other oscillator systems on eBay that can work, I know some guys that have used the GPS disciplined Trimble 10MHz with the Brainstorm DCD8, but I have no direct experience.
                          Hey Dan!!!!!
                          I think we better order two of these right now!!!!!!!!
                          Better safe than sorry.

                          Originally posted by The Maestro
                          But still, I think we're making progress... a lot of stuff to sort out still.
                          As a wise sage is known to say, "Slow Progress Takes Time"!
                          Last edited by wkhanna; 02 October 2013, 16:40 Wednesday.
                          _


                          Bill

                          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                          FinleyAudio

                          Comment

                          • Hdale85
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 16075

                            #14
                            Wow that's a huge price difference and surprising result? Seems the LPFRS is going for like 150 bucks on ebay?

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15261

                              #15
                              Yeah, surprising to me, too. Not that the PRS10 doesn't work well, just that the LPFRS worked better for my colleague!

                              Any of you planning on the low budget route might want to hold off on an LPFRS purchase until I see how the Mutec system works- unless like me, you figure the Brainstorm DCD8 is OK- I have that, but am checking out the Mutec now on general principles, and also on the possibility that it will do quad sample rates without needing double wire AES.

                              If you're speculative like me or convinced (like me) that this is pretty mandatory, then go ahead with the LPFRS. Otherwise, wait a week or two. From what I can tell from the current version of the listing, he's sold 24+, about 65% of his stock, but should then have 10 or 12 left?

                              Again, other 10MHz clock systems can work in this application, according to others I"ve been in communication with, using units like the Trimble with the DCD8 with a Berkeley Alpha DAC. But this does seem to be the performance leader. Certainly it's a price performance leader, as most of the other 10MHz clocks like the Trimble are over $200.

                              And if you're really feeling frisky, there's a brand new Antelope Isochrone 10M on eBay for only $4999, which is a grand off- actually a pretty good deal. That might be what my friend in Munich needs to sync two reclockers together off of on master atomic clock- even he probably won't pop for that, because he's putting his money into a set of Eggleston Savoy's.


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                              Last edited by theSven; 24 March 2023, 17:31 Friday. Reason: Update image location
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
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                              SMJ
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                              In Development...
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                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15261

                                #16
                                Just to mess with your heads a little more (yeah, that's kind of a dark side sort of thing to do, isn't it?), I'm going to quote part of a review done in studio environment of the Antelope OCX combined with 10M as a upgraded clocking source in the studio....


                                Where the OCX really showed its stripes was on a Digi 002 system, belonging to Brooklyn-based engineer Matthew Agoglia. Matt’s room is a great example of a “real world” mixing and tracking room—Digi 002 running through a Hafler power amp into Yamaha NS-10Ms that were awaiting new woofers. From within Pro Tools LE, we put up Emmylou Harris’s song “Deeper Well” off of the Daniel Lanois–produced album Wrecking Ball, a track filled with endless sonic details and effects tumbling around in the background. The difference between the 002 standalone and the 002 clocked to the OCX was absolutely revelatory! There were elements in the tracks that simply didn’t make it to the speakers without the OCX. We listened to a lot of stuff and found the same thing over and over. It’s hard to imagine a single purchase that would upgrade a system in this realm so significantly and pervasively. Everything one does on this system—tracking, monitoring, mixing, printing, bouncing—is going to be significantly improved.

                                Back in Allen’s studio, we hooked up the 10M to the OCX (a simple BNC patch), threw up one of Allen’s mixes, and the whole world changed. It felt like there were about five extra spaces in the stereo field where one might have placed an element of the mix, and elements we hadn’t heard before stood out plain as day. Things like acoustic guitar finger squeaks, the singer’s moist mouth mutterings, more of a ride cymbal’s over and under–tones, aspects of a kick drum’s raspy attack, reverb tails, tape-echo trails, and even compression artifacts were showing up, seemingly from out of thin air. The soundstage gained a depth that seemed to reduce masking between elements that occupied the same frequency range, as if they instinctively found space in front of and behind each other based on how wet or dry they were. Apparent loudness went up a notch, without changing the volume of anything (perhaps a psychoacoustic phenomenon—we’re not sure), and there was noticeable low-end extension. Beyond the details, the whole of the parts was a total pleasure to listen to and evoked a far more vivid image of all aspects of whatever mix we put up. The10M just made the music far more engaging and emotional (and only made the current MP3 paradigm seem more criminal).

                                In fact, with everything we put up, the 10M was a mind- blower, but on one track, we actually found ourselves more interested in the lyrics. Fascinating. A stripped-down, crawling version of Neil Young’s “Harvest Moon” by the nomadic singer Jess Lee with Allen backing on a simple organ part was rendered in such detail with the 10M that individual harmonic overtones in Jess’s voice (tracked with an SM58) almost seemed like individual sonic elements. The organ (run through a vintage RCA tube PA into a Sennheiser MD 421) fanned from one warm shade of orange into a complex spectrum of warm, burnished tones; and previously subtle oscillations became rhythmic pulses Allen hadn’t heard so clearly since tracking it. Somehow, these details drew both of us far more deeply into the story Mr. Young weaves in his lyrics and into Jess’s lonesome interpretation. The recording took on a vitality and intimacy that was, it seems, hiding somewhere in the digital code.

                                So, can a clock make a difference? Ha! Especially when you’ve got a sensitive mixer/producer and a discriminating mastering engineer geeking out on a really nice system in a well-treated room. But what about the so-called real world? Is the OCX going to help a recording made with the clock wheezing its weary way through the world’s worst D-A converter and a pair of 10-cent laptop speakers? We printed mixes from the four different clocks to find out, and in a blind test, we were able to hear differences on a laptop, for sure. However, the differences were certainly diminished by the limitations of the playback system—if you can even call a laptop a playback system. But we don’t work our butts off to make laptops bring people to tears; we do it so that no matter where a recording ends up, it has the best chance of being rendered in all its intended qualities. And as we look toward brighter days—when MP3s have gone the way of the Edison Cylinder—there is no time like the present to consider tools that will generate zeros and ones that will outlive the current lo-fi trends and shine like diamonds in the high-fidelity renaissance of the future.

                                Whether you’re on a prosumer system and can use the OCX to bump up your rig, or you’re a world-class mastering engineer or mixer who can afford the 10M, both of these clocks are capable of making a big enough difference to warrant serious consideration of a purchase. In the case of the discerning, high-level professional, it’s apparent that the margin for sonic improvement is often pretty narrow, yet we assure you that trying the 10M is worth it. As we said, we’ll leave the technological arguments to those with the minds for it, but if you’re like us and want to do all you can to render human musical performances with as much depth, dimension, detail, and love as possible, give the Antelope clocks a listen, and hear for yourself what they can do for your recordings.
                                Last edited by JonMarsh; 02 October 2013, 20:03 Wednesday.
                                the AudioWorx
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                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • PewterTA
                                  Moderator
                                  • Nov 2004
                                  • 2901

                                  #17
                                  Bill.... I'm in if you want to get them... maybe wait until Jon reports back?!!? What do you think!?!?
                                  Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                  -Dan

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15261

                                    #18
                                    I'll make you an offer...


                                    If you each buy an LPFRS now, but for some reason the Mutec doesn't work out, I'll take the LPFRS off of you, at what you paid.

                                    Close as I can come to a money back guarantee at this point. :W


                                    If you don't figure you can do it now but are interested, let me know and I'll just buy two more and flip them to you if the rest works out.

                                    Now, also, regarding my teaser post from a review above, keep in mind that these are small studios that nonetheless have a lot more effort put into speaker positioning and room acoustics control than typically goes on in a home environment- in a sense, small studios are low hanging fruit when it comes to realizing the benefits of an improved clock system in a playback environment. Minimizing early reflections and comb filtering in the playback room goes a long way towards optimizing clarity of the acoustic reproduction.

                                    Now, think of the benefit that they would have gotten if they'd been using the high stability clock ALSO FOR THE A/D ENCODING!
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
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                                    SMJ
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                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • Hdale85
                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                      • Jan 2006
                                      • 16075

                                      #19
                                      There seems to be quite a few on ebay, with how cheap they are though I doubt it'd be hard to get rid of them if you decided to go a different route.

                                      Comment

                                      • wkhanna
                                        Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Jan 2006
                                        • 5673

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by PewterTA
                                        Bill.... I'm in if you want to get them... maybe wait until Jon reports back?!!? What do you think!?!?
                                        Here is my logic for our particular situation:

                                        Your next upgrade is a DAC…..maybe a Schiit Yggdrasil, maybe the Nad M5, but whatever. You are in the $2k range. Clocking may have a little less impact on SQ.

                                        For me, instead of a DAC upgrade, I think I want to try clocking first, & get some more mileage from my Schiit Gungnir. Then maybe find a used Berkley USB and/or M51 down the line.

                                        Either way, for either of us, no matter what DAC we get, we will know we have a decent clocking scheme in place regardless. And upgrading from the LPFRS is a simple matter, should there prove to be a significant advantage with PRS10. Also, the PRS10 seems to be more stable over time. But at the cost of the LPFRS, replacement is a matter only of availability due to its relative cost (assuming it stays as cheap as it is now).

                                        The DCD8 is a bit above my pay scale, so I am banking on the Mutec MC-3 working ‘good enough’ for now. So with the basic power supply, LPFRS, Mutec & sundry accessories I could keep this in the realm of $1k. Far less than a DAC upgrade but possibly with better performance than a new $2k DAC by itself would deliver. And, the clock will potentially work with any future DAC.

                                        From my standpoint, this ‘budget’ scenario may be V close to a realistic ‘endgame’ digital system for me, my old ears & my budget. At least for the next 3 or 4 years.

                                        And honestly, I can not deny my personal vanity & the appeal of saying, “oh, that stuff..... that is just my rubidium atomic master audio clock synchronizing generator…..yeah, I just cobbled that together from some stuff off eBay……”
                                        _


                                        Bill

                                        Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                        ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                        FinleyAudio

                                        Comment

                                        • wkhanna
                                          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Jan 2006
                                          • 5673

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by JonMarsh

                                          Now, think of the benefit that they would have gotten if they'd been using the high stability clock ALSO FOR THE A/D ENCODING!
                                          You mean there may be an application to use this for ripping my vinyl?

                                          Why do I get the feeling I'll be cashing in my 401k by the end of the month? :E
                                          _


                                          Bill

                                          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                          FinleyAudio

                                          Comment

                                          • PewterTA
                                            Moderator
                                            • Nov 2004
                                            • 2901

                                            #22
                                            Jon that's a great offer... and generous as well!!!!

                                            I'm sold... I think Bill is too.... especially since it popped into his head that this can help his ripping of his vinyl.
                                            Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                            -Dan

                                            Comment

                                            • wkhanna
                                              Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Jan 2006
                                              • 5673

                                              #23
                                              It is settled then.
                                              We will be ordering our clocks within a few days.:T
                                              _


                                              Bill

                                              Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                              ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                              FinleyAudio

                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15261

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by wkhanna
                                                It is settled then.
                                                We will be ordering our clocks within a few days.:T
                                                Cool! :T

                                                Money back buy back offer stands; I realize this is something of a leap of faith for you guys. And it is yet to be seen if the Mutec MC-3 Plus can stand and deliver.

                                                Speaking of deliver, the Mutec was waiting for me in my balcony when I got home tonight at almost 9, so we're a step closer on that evaluation path, too.

                                                Slow work takes time, but we're getting there, and for me it feels like a lot of interesting things are coming together!
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                                                Comment

                                                • Chris D
                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Dec 2000
                                                  • 16877

                                                  #25
                                                  Did someone say, "BADGERS?"


                                                  [youtube]hGlyFc79BUE[/youtube]
                                                  CHRIS

                                                  Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                  - Pleasantville

                                                  Comment

                                                  • wkhanna
                                                    Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                    • Jan 2006
                                                    • 5673

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                    Cool! :T

                                                    Money back buy back offer stands; I realize this is something of a leap of faith for you guys. And it is yet to be seen if the Mutec MC-3 Plus can stand and deliver.
                                                    Your offer is quite generous, but not one we plan on taking advantage of.
                                                    Less a leap of faith, & more simply confidence based your proven knowledge, actual experience & knack you have for ferreting....err ... ahh.. I mean Badgering out elegant solutions to some rather complex challenges.

                                                    Originally posted by Chris D
                                                    Did someone say, "BADGERS?"
                                                    What!!!!!

                                                    No wise cracks about badger NADs????!!!???!!!

                                                    I am a little disappointed in you, Chris!
                                                    _


                                                    Bill

                                                    Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                    ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                    FinleyAudio

                                                    Comment

                                                    • jim1961
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Nov 2012
                                                      • 357

                                                      #27
                                                      Pardon a 5th grade question here.....

                                                      But is all this reclock scheming at least partly (or mostly???) to get a myriad of different sources all on the same clock time?

                                                      Would re-clocking (clock syncing) in a situation where one has only one source make any sense?
                                                      Seek out and destroy early high gain room reflections

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 15261

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by jim1961
                                                        Pardon a 5th grade question here.....

                                                        But is all this reclock scheming at least partly (or mostly???) to get a myriad of different sources all on the same clock time?

                                                        Would re-clocking (clock syncing) in a situation where one has only one source make any sense?
                                                        In a studio environment, the desire is to get everything on a common clock, without having to use clock recovery generated from the input signal (which is how consumer gear works with both S/PDIF and AEDS/EBU, because that clock has some jitter introduced by the signal modulation going through the transmission circuits (logic) and even the isolation transformer. So even a "little" box like that Mutec has six clock outputs to drive a number of units; the larger units have more, such as the DCD8 with 8 WC outputs.

                                                        Many clock systems are JUST clock systems- they take one master input for sample rate, reclock it using their local oscillator or an external reference like the 10MHz PRS10 or LPFRS, and then output the word clocks to the rest of the connected equipment. They'll usually have an S/PDIF and AES11 output which is just clock signal, no audio, to drive other gear that may not have a WC input but does have a reference input. Sorry to go through all this detail, but it's the pro world. SOME pieces, like the Brainstorm DCD8, actually have active reclocking based on the reference source; others, like the Isochrone DA, pass through audio signals and buffer them but don't reclock them.

                                                        The ideal prosumer PC/Mac music server situation is something like what my colleague in Munich has, where you can feed your word clock into the wc input on an Lync AES16e, the Lynx output is then reclocked (in his case, first through a TotalDAC-D1 reclocker, then through the DCD8, then into the TotalDAC D1 dual.)

                                                        That is even more complicated than what Vincent recommends on his site as a high performance system.....


                                                        Click image for larger version  Name:	shema-d1-digital_eng.jpg Views:	6 Size:	52.2 KB ID:	930660

                                                        I'll draw something up like this to illustrate the concept- we will probably split a bunch of this off as a separate thread.

                                                        And if you say, what, you're using two re-clockers- how can that possibly be necessary? well, it simply sounds better. Whether it's necessary or not is dependent on how you like your sound... if you like more imaging, transient detail, resolution, etc, then to us, it's necessary. I do have a sense of what is necessary FIRST, and that mirrors what we actually implemented first (in that case, it was the DCD8 with 10M clock, reclocking the Lynx output and providing word clock to the Lynx. The DCD8 can be used without supplying WC to the source, but just tracking the sample rate of the source.

                                                        Mind you, the lowest end DAC we've used in this setup is a a Zodiac Antelope Gold,

                                                        Click image for larger version

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                                                        which goes for about $3500 USD, and my friend uses custom Paul Hynes regulators with battery supplies for most of this gear, too. How truly necessary that is, is still up for debate and investigation.

                                                        Now, to really inflame this discussion, let's point out that we can hear the effect of adding a second TotalDAC D1 reclocker in that chain, and others can, too, even using something like an Aurender S10 as the source. Now, at that point, one is getting into the realm of diminishing returns, but then I think that realm includes the land of $30K or $50K turntables, and this is a LOT less expensive. If you've got big Wilson's or Savoy Signatures or Isis or any Magico, and more money than you can figure out how to burn, then maybe that makes sense. that's not me... OTOH, my friend is using two. It's only money, you know? :W

                                                        So, my goal is to help ferret, er, Badger out a configuration at the most modest possible cost that gets some large percentage of the improvement- that's why I'm investigating the Mutec in addition to our tried and true Brainstorm DCD8. I THINK you could probably use both of those together, in concert with the TotalDAC reclocker, but only if you have a 10M clock like the Isochrone 10M with multiple outputs that can lock each unit together. I'm pretty crazy, alright, but for now, I'd rather put the $5-6K into savings for a Tesla Model S. I mean, I've got no one local to impress, you know? :W

                                                        So, to make this a little more transparent, I'll do some nice block diagrams with potential configurations and for each evaluation post something like that, just so that we're all on the same page.

                                                        BTW, we found by experimentation of many permutations that having the DCD8 last, just before the DAC, worked best- yet we could STILL hear the effect of having the D1 reclockers in or out of the chain before it. Go figure... it doesn't make sense to me, but I know what we all heard (friend, his skeptical wife, and skeptical me). Levels were totally matched, as the playback volume control setting on the D1 was never touched.
                                                        Last edited by theSven; 25 March 2023, 07:32 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
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                                                        • jim1961
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2012
                                                          • 357

                                                          #29
                                                          Hmmm

                                                          Maybe ill get lucky and my brother (Scott) will go nuts on all this stuff (so I can borrow them of course)

                                                          ...and see what differences my ears can realize.

                                                          --- --- --- --- ---

                                                          Here's another great disc (of course, you'll want the CD, not MP3 downloads): Black Coffee, by Ann Savoy & Her Sleepless Knights, with violinist Kevil Wimmer and guitarist Tom Mitchell (CD, Memphis DOT 0225)—inspired, I'm sure, by Joe Venuti and Django Reinhardt. Known for Cajun music, Savoy sings in English and French; try "Cette Chanson est pour Vous." Both DACs did splendidly with this album, which should be far better known. When it comes to popular taste, I must be totally asynchronous, which the Rega DAC isn't.


                                                          But "completely synchronous" is "old-school," Bateman also wrote. That's "where the DAC is completely controlled by the computer." If the computer speeds up, the DAC follows and the reverse happens if it slows. Instead, the Rega DAC re-clocks the incoming datastream "on the fly," in order to avoid data loss and reduce jitter—exactly what Bateman said you would achieve with independent asynchronous DACs.


                                                          If the DAC itself reclocks the incoming feed, then by re-clocking twice more, your re-clocking the signal three times?
                                                          Last edited by theSven; 25 March 2023, 07:37 Saturday. Reason: Update stereophile url
                                                          Seek out and destroy early high gain room reflections

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15261

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by jim1961
                                                            Hmmm

                                                            Maybe ill get lucky and my brother (Scott) will go nuts on all this stuff (so I can borrow them of course)

                                                            ...and see what differences my ears can realize.

                                                            --- --- --- --- ---

                                                            Here's another great disc (of course, you'll want the CD, not MP3 downloads): Black Coffee, by Ann Savoy & Her Sleepless Knights, with violinist Kevil Wimmer and guitarist Tom Mitchell (CD, Memphis DOT 0225)—inspired, I'm sure, by Joe Venuti and Django Reinhardt. Known for Cajun music, Savoy sings in English and French; try "Cette Chanson est pour Vous." Both DACs did splendidly with this album, which should be far better known. When it comes to popular taste, I must be totally asynchronous, which the Rega DAC isn't.


                                                            But "completely synchronous" is "old-school," Bateman also wrote. That's "where the DAC is completely controlled by the computer." If the computer speeds up, the DAC follows and the reverse happens if it slows. Instead, the Rega DAC reclocks the incoming datastream "on the fly," in order to avoid data loss and reduce jitter—exactly what Bateman said you would achieve with independent asynchronous DACs.


                                                            If the DAC itself reclocks the incoming feed, then by reclocking twice more, your reclocking the signal three times?
                                                            The Rega is uses synchronous data retrieval, with a PLL to track the incoming clock, and has pretty good jitter performance for an Adaptive USB DAC, apart from the power supply related side bands in the jitter spectrum and in the analog output. In this price range, most DAC'S use adaptive mode, like the well regarded Music Fidelity M1 ($699), which has similar overall performance, including supply related noise, though a bit better higher frequency noise performance.

                                                            What most people are actually referring to by saying the DAC reclocks the incoming stream is that they use SRC (sample rate conversion, usually in one of the dedicated chips from Cirrus Logic or TI/BB to convert the incoming stream to a fixed sample rate that the local DAC runs at. The Benchmark DAC's do this, the Berkeley Alpha DAC does this, many other do, as it's a way to avoid dealing with incoming clock issues.

                                                            This is NOT the same things as we're discussing above; above, there is no sample rate change, we're just cleaning up the timing, specifically reclocking it so that the data pulses and clock pulses are very precisely controlled via the high resolution master clock. .

                                                            However, using SRC on an incoming signal with jitter is not a panacea, and reducing or removing that jitter BEFORE SRC always helps. OTOH, I'm not a fan of the results of any of the commercial SRC chips. YMMV.

                                                            Also, the synchronous/asynchronous thing is applicable primarily to USB and Firewire implementations. In an asynchronous setup, the DAC local oscillator requests data as it needs it, and clocks it through a local buffer and receiver chip (typically the XMOS one) using the local clock to control timing and set the sample rate. Both USB and Firewire can operate this way. In adaptive synchronous, one is relying on the PC or source oscillator for the most part, and the DAC system must use a PLL (phase locked loop) to track the source oscillator. Actually, many Firewire implementations use this method, with the JET PLL chip being the most popular and highest performance in that mode. A few Firewire units, like Metric Halo and Weiss, use true asynchronous.

                                                            What I would usually recommend is to go find a local dealer with a well reviewed DAC by someone you trust, and give that a listen to establish some kind of aural baseline. You probably won't find anyone with this sort of reclocking approach, but hearing a high end Meitner or MSB or dCS is still a worthwhile experience, to get a gut feeling for where this can go.

                                                            Note that the new Aurender W20 supports word clock inputs and double wire AES mode; it's quite compatible with the Brainstorm DCD8 in a system configuration. A bit pricey to say the least, but it shows how people are figuring this stuff out and it's getting around that adopting best studio practices has some relevance in the high end home environment.

                                                            I've hears some say that you can't possibly transport a clock reference around outside a box with the precision that a local oscillator obtains, but Rubidium oscillators output a sine wave, not a square wave, and the fidelity of transfer is very good- you just have to have good receiving comparators, which is not all that hard to do. Besides, in all cases, I say trust your ears.
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                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 15261

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by jim1961
                                                              Hmmm


                                                              If the DAC itself reclocks the incoming feed, then by reclocking twice more, your reclocking the signal three times?

                                                              Yes, you're re-clocking and also buffering and isolating. I can't say it makes sense to me- I know how well the totalDAC D1 works on a poor digital signal, but it's hard to understand why doing it again would make a difference.


                                                              High Jitter 10 kHz sine wave run through simple AD1955 DAC:

                                                              Click image for larger version

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                                                              Same signal, run through TotalDAC reclocker, into same DAC:

                                                              Click image for larger version

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                                                              Nose floor of AD1951 DAC:

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                                                              Spectrum of AD1951 DAC reproducing 'jittered' 10 kHz waveform shown above:

                                                              (this is your mind/music on bad digital!)

                                                              Click image for larger version

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                                                              Spectrum of 10 kHz sine shown in second scope plot, after going through TotalDAC buffer reclocker:

                                                              (this is your mind/music on cleaned up digital)

                                                              Click image for larger version

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                                                              BTW, the TotalDAC-D1 has this reclocking buffer built in- the reclocker is just the FPGA controller and memory buffer (not at all unlike a Genesis Digital Time Lens, or the buffer in the GenII PS Audio Perfect DAC). So if it's this good, why does using a second one in series sound better? Beats me, we just know it does.
                                                              Last edited by theSven; 24 March 2023, 17:39 Friday. Reason: Update image location
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                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 15261

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by wkhanna
                                                                Your offer is quite generous, but not one we plan on taking advantage of.
                                                                Less a leap of faith, & more simply confidence based your proven knowledge, actual experience & knack you have for ferreting....err ... ahh.. I mean Badgering out elegant solutions to some rather complex challenges.



                                                                What!!!!!

                                                                No wise cracks about badger NADs????!!!???!!!

                                                                I am a little disappointed in you, Chris!
                                                                I can put together care packages for you guys with the heat sinks, DB9 connector, Bergquist insulating pads, some red/black paired wire for the power hook up, heat shrink, etc. Help jump start your getting this ready and tested. (oh, you do have some fast scopes lying around to test these, right? :W )

                                                                Just need to PM me some addresses...
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                                                                Comment

                                                                • Hdale85
                                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                                  • 16075

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Ah all this sounds like fun.....wish I had the funds haha.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • jim1961
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Nov 2012
                                                                    • 357

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Hdale85
                                                                    Ah all this sounds like fun.....wish I had the funds haha.
                                                                    You and me both :T

                                                                    Jon, you have proved your point. My gut tells me that over time, the reasons for all this will clear up. Things like this that don't make sense have a habit of making sense later. The rest of us are in your debt for your persistant and definitive exercises in pushing the edges. Saving some of us a lot of money and time

                                                                    At the end of the day, I hope to eventually see one DAC that all by itself gets to your final result without the need for a pair of series reclocking devices.
                                                                    Seek out and destroy early high gain room reflections

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 15261

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Antelope audio thinks they make a digital preamp that does that, and it has it's own built in rubidium clock- but then it only has S/SPDIF outputs!?!!?!

                                                                      At the end of the day, I hope to eventually see one DAC that all by itself gets to your final result without the need for a pair of series reclocking devices.
                                                                      Besides, where would that leave all of us lovers of DIY? :W


                                                                      Jon, you have proved your point. My gut tells me that over time, the reasons for all this will clear up. Things like this that don't make sense have a habit of making sense later. The rest of us are in your debt for your persistant and definitive exercises in pushing the edges. Saving some of us a lot of money and time
                                                                      A wise idea to let me stub my toes and blow money on things that don't work until we find things that do... this digital stuff has been a real PITA at times, EXCEPT that since 2010 I really feel like there has been quite a bit of progress in what can be achieved at some vaguely sensible price point... i.e., under $10K. I'm wondering if the M51 will benefit well from reclocking or not- it's digital architecture is quite a bit different. So, if the Mutec works OK, combined with an LPFRS from HK, feeding into an M51, we have a "starter" atomic clock solution for in the range of $3k. THAT might be something of a break through, considering what DAC's like the Berkeley Alpha DAC cost ( have one, you know...)

                                                                      I bet even the Berkeley will benefit from this, as it sounds substantially smoother just with an input buffer like the Isochrone DA, and I know others using the Brainstorm DCD8 without Rubidium clock to good effect with the Berkeley DAC. Maybe combine the Alpha USB with the Mutec for a high grade USB solution? Dunno, only one way to find out if it really works or not. Since I have most of the pieces sitting around now, it's up to me.

                                                                      Another curious data point, from Antelope Audio's site, regarding the Isochrone 10M,

                                                                      Rubidium core is FEI 5660 Compatible Stanford PRS10 Equivalent
                                                                      that makes me wonder if they aren't just basically embedding a PRS10 inside. Engineering a good rubidium clock is not something I expect even a company like Antelope to do. Or may be it's a "compatible" part built by someone else.
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                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • PewterTA
                                                                        Moderator
                                                                        • Nov 2004
                                                                        • 2901

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Now I want a Berkeley Alpha USB.......

                                                                        Ugh.
                                                                        Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                                                        -Dan

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 15261

                                                                          #37
                                                                          I think I have a Hiface EVO around here somewhere I could donate to the cause... Will look for that.
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                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • wkhanna
                                                                            Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                            • Jan 2006
                                                                            • 5673

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Looking the Hiface EVO I saw this:

                                                                            "An external clock input is available for use where extremely precise and stable clock generators are preferred. The interface automatically senses the presence of such an external signal."

                                                                            Have you had opportunity to try this with any of your Rubidium clocks?
                                                                            _


                                                                            Bill

                                                                            Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                            ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                            FinleyAudio

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                                              • 15261

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Nope- I'd even forgotten about that! But that's a good thing....

                                                                              Finding the EVO is on my official Carrot to do list now. But it's behind some other stuff- hopefully will get to it next Sunday!
                                                                              the AudioWorx
                                                                              Natalie P
                                                                              M8ta
                                                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                                                              Modula MT XE
                                                                              Modula Xtreme
                                                                              Isiris
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                                                                              SMJ
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                                                                              In Development...
                                                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                              Obi-Wan
                                                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                              Modula PWB
                                                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                                • 15261

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by wkhanna
                                                                                Looking the Hiface EVO I saw this:

                                                                                "An external clock input is available for use where extremely precise and stable clock generators are preferred. The interface automatically senses the presence of such an external signal."

                                                                                Have you had opportunity to try this with any of your Rubidium clocks?

                                                                                Did some checking. What the EVO has is kind of oddball, understandable perhaps in HiFi DIY terms, but not usable in a professional environment or with the equipment I've been discussing.

                                                                                It seems to have inputs for an external master oscillator running at the typical crystal frequency, in this case in the 20-24MHz region. But, Since introducing the EVO they also introduced an outboard clock unit, which has a master knob for setting sample rate clock frequencies to match with the EVO.

                                                                                Click image for larger version

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                                                                                From the front panel here, it appears that one toggles the prime rate (for 44.1 or 48 kHz based sample rates), and then rotates the knob to get single rate, double rate, or quad rate. Studio gear doesn't work this way, it's a bit too manual and cumbersome. I haven't downloaded the manual for the EVO clock yet, but I'll do so sometime soon. I guess the point is, I have no idea if this box will work with standard WCLK outputs (as the EVO clock seems to provide, based on nomenclature) or not- this would have to be investigated. IF so, something like the Mutec might still be a problem to work with it, because normally units like the Mutec FOLLOW the rate of the input device, whereas here, the clock has to set the rate for the input device. What might work is using an EVO manually with the EVO outboard clock, or maybe just using the automatic clock mode (if there is one, adjusting to program source- that isn't the case for iTunes for example, and in many USB setups you have to set the clock rate at the DAC, and then send at that rate. One more reason I'm not fond of USB.

                                                                                Note, word clock is not the master oscillator frequency OR the bit clock rate; it is a lower frequency clock signal which is clocked on the switch between left and right channel data and back.
                                                                                Last edited by theSven; 25 March 2023, 08:01 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                                Natalie P
                                                                                M8ta
                                                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                Modula MT XE
                                                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                                                Isiris
                                                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                SMJ
                                                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                                                Calliope
                                                                                Ardent D

                                                                                In Development...
                                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                Obi-Wan
                                                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                Modula PWB
                                                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • wkhanna
                                                                                  Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                                                  • 5673

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Wiki link to word clock

                                                                                  Ok, so this won't substitute for the Mutec which is functioning as a 'Master Clock' using the Rubidium oscillator as the reference frequency?
                                                                                  _


                                                                                  Bill

                                                                                  Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                                  ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                                  FinleyAudio

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • PewterTA
                                                                                    Moderator
                                                                                    • Nov 2004
                                                                                    • 2901

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    The guy here seems to really like the Mutec MC-3+ in his setup.
                                                                                    Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                                                                    -Dan

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                                      • 15261

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Remember, there are two functions we're talking about-
                                                                                      • Providing a word clock which synchronizes the timing of all interconnected digital components - this is derived from a device designated as the "master", then distributed by a clock distribution system. This helps lock the overall system timing and may reduce jitter locally, depending on the quality of local oscillators and PLL's. This distribution system may also distribute a super clock, which is 256x WCLOCK, suich as used by Digidesign workstations and others.
                                                                                      • Reclocking the digital signal using a master clock reference of very high stability and low jitter, so that the timing of the output digital signal reflects a very high stability and low jitter master clock to be recovered by the next device in the chain - this is what a Brainstrom DCD8 and reportedly the Mutec MC-3 Plus can do.

                                                                                      Originally posted by wkhanna
                                                                                      Wiki link to word clock

                                                                                      Ok, so this won't substitute for the Mutec which is functioning as a 'Master Clock' using the Rubidium oscillator as the reference frequency?
                                                                                      Many clock systems can accomplish the former, but not the latter. In my experience, the latter is quite useful with the right DACs for getting the digital system to the next level of performance. The former may be critical in establishing a very high quality clock for A/D as well as D/A. Personally, in all cases, I recommend using your ears to determine the efficacy of any system; spec sheets and white papers are only worth so much; you don't listen to them.
                                                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                                                      Natalie P
                                                                                      M8ta
                                                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                                                      Isiris
                                                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                      SMJ
                                                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                                                      Calliope
                                                                                      Ardent D

                                                                                      In Development...
                                                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                      Modula PWB
                                                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                                        • 15261

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by PewterTA
                                                                                        The guy here seems to really like the Mutec MC-3+ in his setup.
                                                                                        As you can see there is a variety of feedback, though none of it using the 10MHz clock input- so I personally doubt they've tapped it's full potential. That's what I want to find out. I wonder how well things worked out with the EVO, and how exactly they had it configured.

                                                                                        What I'm not clear about is whether it's possible to use a USB interface like the EVO with automatic sample rate switching and still back feed it a WCLOCK signal derived from the reclocked sample rate. The DCD8 can do things kind of like that, at least with devices using the Lynx AES interface. I think initially the sending device ignores the WCLOCK, then locks to it after it's established at the right rate. Pure speculation on my part. But that seems to be how my friend's system in Munich works.
                                                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                                                        Natalie P
                                                                                        M8ta
                                                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                                                        Isiris
                                                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                        SMJ
                                                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                                                        Calliope
                                                                                        Ardent D

                                                                                        In Development...
                                                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                        Obi-Wan
                                                                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                        Modula PWB
                                                                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                                          • 15261

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Another place to hook up your Atomic Clock!

                                                                                          Direct in to the DAC:





                                                                                          Click image for larger version

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                                                                                          In the heart of the new Platinum lie the renowned 64-bit Acoustically Focused Clocking and the ultra-low jitter oven-controlled crystal oscillator, which are Antelope’s signature for unprecedented sound quality appreciated by the best recording, mastering and post production studios around the world. In addition, the Platinum is equipped with a 10 MHz input for the legendary Antelope 10M Rubidium atomic clock, providing the most accurate and stable clocking reference and therefore an uncompromised digital to analog conversion.
                                                                                          Last edited by theSven; 24 March 2023, 17:39 Friday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                                          Natalie P
                                                                                          M8ta
                                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                                                          Isiris
                                                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                          SMJ
                                                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                                                          Calliope
                                                                                          Ardent D

                                                                                          In Development...
                                                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                          Modula PWB
                                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                          Comment

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