Working on the new setup with NAD M50

[impala454]

It could be a little easier... :P

[youtube]mmHycIOtYHA[/youtube]

[JonMarsh]

talk about low effort ripping- just stuff the CD in and walk away, come back when it's done and put another one in.





Those stacks of CD's on top of the M50 are about 2 feet tall now, and growing...

[JonMarsh]

Another step of progress- the refurb Ipad3 I'd bought for the trip to Northern England this summer as a media iPad but didn't take because using the WiFi would crash it is now working fine, after wiping it and installing iOS7; perhaps a corrupted earlier OS install? Now it's the dedicated M50 NAD iPad app remote control, and has performed flawlessly this weekend while stuffing the maw of the M50 loading CD's in FLAC on the M52.




I'm getting itchy to hear it in the system, but it's staying over at home for a while to load more music, and sort out the reclocking chain and test stuff before taking it over to GF's. What with losing at least 1 weekend day to work most times, it will be a bit slow before everything is ready (and that's not counting finishing the crossover build updates... slow work takes lotsa time!)

[Hdale85]

Yes, but I had posted in the new thread just never realized the title haha.

[JonMarsh]

Nevermind! I'm blind

Nah, we're just sneaky, setting up a new thread!

The NAD M52 digital vault did arrive, and it's setup and the M50 is being fed CD's to rip to it while I work a design review for our customer today... almost wrapped up, I think.

Images not available

Images from Alpha Audio in NL- I haven't had time to take any pictures!!

[Hdale85]

Nevermind! I'm blind

[wkhanna]

I got well into the 'T's yesterday. Did I mention there are a lot of 'T's? Think of all the album names that start with "The ..."

Ha!!!
I was going to ask if you leave the word 'The' with the Artist/File Name in your metadata......it can get to be a pretty big list if you do......

The weekend seemed far too short, and far too busy- and no time for speaker or musical instrument stuff. Now, back in the 5:30AM to 8PM grind until next Saturday...

We are all V hopeful that a reprieve will soon materialize regarding your current work schedule..... nuff said on that topic.

[JonMarsh]

I got well into the 'T's yesterday. Did I mention there are a lot of 'T's? Think of all the album names that start with "The ..."

The weekend seemed far too short, and far too busy- and no time for speaker or musical instrument stuff. Now, back in the 5:30AM to 8PM grind until next Saturday...

[JonMarsh]

Had only enough time yesterday to just get the iMac 21 brought home from GF's and setup with Max for finishing the artwork loading and conversions in the workroom, and run a couple of albums. I'm in the 'S's now. Should have time for getting more done today.

Also ordered an NAD M52 digital vault, so GF will have an easy way to load her CD's; she was asking about that this weekend and when it would be ready. That's a good sign...

[wkhanna]

Fired one up and checked it with the mini-RAID box loaded with drives, everything looks good.

Progress! Excellent!
Have you finished loading your files on the RAID?

.......ordered an MC-3 Plus after preliminary feedback from my Munich connection.

Wonderful news!
We are keeping our fingers crossed!
If it meets or exceeds minimum performance requirements it really brings this project much closer to an affordable level.

[JonMarsh]

I yam what I yam...

Was able to get to the post office today, thank heavens, and picked up the Popeye supplies from Hong Kong.

Fired one up and checked it with the mini-RAID box loaded with drives, everything looks good.

Image not available

Hopefully will have time to take a few local pictures tomorrow- I'm on a grind trying to get errands done in time for dinner with GF.

Also went ahead and ordered an MC-3 Plus after preliminary feedback from my Munich connection.

BTW, I love the pic! Problem is, my GF KNOWS what my system costs; she's a bit horrified, except that she's heard nothing like it before...

and she loves classical music, especially live classical, and she admits this sounds much more like live than anything else she's ever heard (of course, that bar isn't probably very high.... best I not sprain my arm patting myself on the back!)


She'll get a kick out of this....

[wkhanna]

You guys do not waste any time!

One of the first things I noticed about the Mutec was its German origin.
Something I see as a positive characteristic.

Regarding little secrets from The Wife........

[JonMarsh]

My colleague in Munich hasn't been wasting any time since I told him Friday a week ago about the release of the Mutec MC-3 Plus- he's got two in now for testing this weekend.








We're in email discussions right now about how to test it, in what configurations in his system; we'd be on the phone, but I think he's trying to keep this on the down low from his wife, at least temporarily... :W

BTW, I'm expecting good things of this unit; I've read of others using this in home and studio systems with units like the Mytek DAC and gotten significant results without the 10M clock (they didn't know anything about that technique), and it's beaten out units like the Apogee Big Ben.

A reminder, Mutec is a German firm.

[JonMarsh]

Now, with regards to the SMPS, if you're feeling a little flush, you can get the same one I bought used on eBay new at Grainger:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/OMRON-Power-Supply-2REK1?Pid=search

Nice voltage readout, reasonable ripple filtering, and just generally groovy.

[JonMarsh]

Yes, so true & so sad to be loosing such talented artists & creative genius.

Such familiar names that we grew up with like Lord & Dolby.


On a brighter note, I remember your keyboard from the other thread......V nice!
....how are you liking those Audioengine speakers?
Those are the 5+, right?

Yeah, and they're made with bamboo! Death to MDF! :W


Seriously, pretty decent little boxes, decent neutrality, good dynamic range for the size, and peripheral friendly features.

Back to the digital- something else you'll need is a heatsink for the rubidium clock. Refer to my first post- I've got a number of those, can send you one if you decide to go down this path.





The clock I linked to, which I bought, has threads for metric M3 bolts. Get those at your local hardware store, or wherever is convenient.

Just to be clear on my current plans,

• Plan to order a Mutec MC3 plus early in October- it's a special item, don't know if it goes to Markerteck from US distributor or direct from Germany
• Will setup a shoot out between Mutec and Brainstorm, using same type clock (I'm ordering another rubidium LPFRS)
• The Brainstorm DCD8 only supports single wire AES up to 96 kHz- above that, it runs in double wire mode (two AES/EBU connectors per stereo pair), I'm hoping the Mutec works in normal single wire to 192 kHz.
• Sources for test will be NAD M50 (AES output) and iMac running Audirvanna and/or Fidelia into Berkeley Alpha USB, both CD source, HD Tracks high res, and ripped SACD converted to PCM
• The crossover updates, internal damping updates and construction completion, and new internal wiring will be completed on the Isiris and some break in done before doing this shoot out, which makes a likely date around Xmas holidays, as finding time before then isn't going to be easy, and there's a lot of ground work to complete in the mean time.
• The Brainstorm is the reference - we know what it does- the Mutec is the new challenger that may offer comparable performance at half the price, and may support quad rate in single wire mode- that is of considerable interest. But bona fides need to be established....

[wkhanna]

..... for the clock I linked to, you need a +24V supply, that can deliver up to 4A (startup/warm-up current); operating at stable temperature it pulls 800 mA to 1A. Lots of stuff on eBay, but you might try new with a conventional distributor. Would recommend Linear or low noise SMPS.

This would probably work.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Way-Output...item53ee0e8df8.............

A funny thing, this....... Getting your recommendation on a PS is sort of like getting a recipe for fuel for my homemade rocket from Herr von Braun.

[wkhanna]

Yes, so true & so sad to be loosing such talented artists & creative genius.

Such familiar names that we grew up with like Lord & Dolby.


On a brighter note, I remember your keyboard from the other thread......V nice!
....how are you liking those Audioengine speakers?
Those are the 5+, right?

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, too many guys passing on, at what I think is too young- but then, pancreatic cancer is pretty much a death sentence, either fast or slow, depending on the type.

[wkhanna]

Thanks again for more links!

Here is one for everyone else, since I am pretty sure you have already seen this: John Lord

[JonMarsh]

The Leslie wins out by landslide simply by virtue of utilizing vacuum tubes!
That sweet thing has those whirling, rotating drivers that make that famous Hammond B3 type sound, doesn't it?


Thank you for the link to the clock!
That D-B 9 pin connector makes for a straightforward hook-up.

Would one of these make a good match?

No, that's the right power supply for a Trimble GPS disciplined oscillator; for the clock I linked to, you need a +24V supply, that can deliver up to 4A (startup/warm-up current); operating at stable temperature it pulls 800 mA to 1A. Lots of stuff on eBay, but you might try new with a conventional distributor. Would recommend Linear or low noise SMPS.

This would probably work.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Way-Output-24V-4A-Power-Supply-96W-Waterproof-For-Outdoor-Use-/360476216824?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ee0e 8df8



Connecting cable between clock and re-clocker is SMA to BNC. You can find those on eBay too.

This one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10ft-BNC-Male-Plug-to-SMA-Male-RG58C-U-RF-Coaxial-Cable-CablesOnline-RF-BS10-/390513235143?pt=US_Radio_Comm_Coaxial_Cables_Conne ctors&hash=item5aec6714c7

Yup, the Leslie is to go with tone wheel clone organ, the KeyB I have, which is the closest thing functionally in a portable I've ever found to my old B3 Hammond. It's not just very close, it's actually better, as it has all of the same control functionality, plus it uses samples from three different B3's, as well as having many controls the original B3 didn't, like tone, digital reverb, overdrive that does mimic well a setup like Jon Lord's using the Hammond into Marshall amps to drive the tone cabinet.



Getting the Leslie would be a much bigger quality of life boost than having a slightly more stable clock reference... :W

The 3300 is pretty dang cool; vacuum tube pre map, its own overdrive feature if you want it, both type of Leslie input connectors as well as a 1/4" connector input I could feed from one of the outputs of the Line 6 Pod HD Pro (think guitar with Leslie on one channel), and it's 300W, not the typical 40-60 watts of an old tube Leslie. And a much more robust HF driver. Rocks!!

[wkhanna]

The Leslie wins out by landslide simply by virtue of utilizing vacuum tubes!
That sweet thing has those whirling, rotating drivers that make that famous Hammond B3 type sound, doesn't it?

Edit: I love this part listed in the specs: "Vacuum tube pre-amp with EAR-SHATTERING 300-Watt RMS solid-state amplifier"



Thank you for the link to the clock!
That D-B 9 pin connector makes for a straightforward hook-up.

Would one of these make a good match?

[JonMarsh]

No problem........I already found a couple.....

We should get couple of these Antelope units!

Antelope-Audio-Isochrone-10M-Rubidium-Atomic-Clock

Here is a 'real deal' that even comes with instructions - some how, I don't quite think it is up to The Maestro's standard, however.

Or.....just make our own........

It only gets two measly paragraphs in Wikipedia.....how complex could it be?

....See, nothing to it!

The Antelope Isochrone 10M has been around for a while, and it certainly sets a standard...

Note that the Wikipedia article references the Stanford Research PRS10 which I've previously mentioned and discussed- that one is only around $1500 plus some change for necessary accessories (interface board, heatsink for bench top operation).


That makes the one from the vendor I usually use on eBay look very reasonable!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/high-performance-rubidium-LPFRS-10MHz-Oscillator-low-phase-noise-and-spurious-/170926949873?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27cc0a 45f1

OTOH, I do hope to get an SRS PRS10 for myself for Christmas, but if funds are limited and I have to chose between it and a new Leslie 3300 tone cabinet for my organ, I'll go with the latter. The PRS10 would be a theoretical upgrade, but my friend and I have never sat down and down a shoot out versus the used Swiss made one from China. OTOH, the PRS10 has a special rubidium tube with reservoir that is rated for 20 years continuous operation. Longevity is a factor not to be dismissed.

Image not available

[wkhanna]

No problem........I already found a couple.....

We should get couple of these Antelope units!

Antelope-Audio-Isochrone-10M-Rubidium-Atomic-Clock

Here is a 'real deal' that even comes with instructions - some how, I don't quite think it is up to The Maestro's standard, however.

Or.....just make our own........

It only gets two measly paragraphs in Wikipedia.....how complex could it be?

....See, nothing to it!

[JonMarsh]

It's a cake walk... easier than a NatalieP crossover board!

[PewterTA]

Jon... I think we'll need your expertise to build ourselves a rubidium clock for our systems... hee hee. Purely so we can indulge Michael!

[Finleyville]

I am so happy that I live close to you two that I can reap the rewards from the gobs of cash that you throw at your systems!

[wkhanna]

I agree totally, there are many ways to ‘skin’ the proverbial cat.
Your (therefore our) approach seems as appropriate as any other, AFAIC.
We have a V stable, reasonably clean OS & server platform, decent mid-level DAC’s & decent cables. Everything is evenly matched, & IMO sounds quite good.

I believe we are both at the point that addressing (read spending significant $ on) clocking would really have a sonic payoff that would be commensurate to the cash outlay.

I guess that VPI Traveler TT is going to have to wait, but I just do not know if I can live without picking up a Soundsmith cartridge sometime in the near future.:B

[PewterTA]

Bill... We can do whatever you'd like with your system! It really comes down to prioritizing the "toys."

Had I not gotten that deal on the PS Audio P10, I'd probably have gotten Mutec just to see what it would do with how our current systems are set up. Heck that may be a later Christmas type present to myself... ha ha. Or maybe we'll just work towards building two clocks and then.... well still save some money over the price of the Mutec! Just have to see.

From the get go, I've basically been going with the idea of the best clocking possible, that will give the biggest difference in both our systems. Our DACs are really decent enough and would have to jump to something like the NAD for us to really go further on the DAC side of things. That's why I've taken part in more doing things that I can justify as affordable without breaking the bank (minus the PS Audio, that was just too good to pass up). So I've noticed with the updated power supply for my MF V-Link192 and upgraded USB cables... it has made a nice difference in all aspects of the system.... and the next part in the upgrade path is the clocking for me. It's sort of like my version of writing a symphony... getting all the pieces into place. Even though they might not be the best... it's making everything work together in a way where it elevates the system beyond what it should. So far... I think we are accomplishing this...

Now if only there was a money tree planted at your place!

[JonMarsh]

For anyone besides me following this conversation.......




Oh yes!

But honestly, as I begin to understand more & more what you have been explaining, this solution to the clocking is at the heart of any good digital music reproduction. Regardless of the DAC, whether a $100 Schiit Modi or some $2k unit, without solving the timing issue you will never realize the potential of any DAC.

Once I get my NatP's 'duded up', my plan was to work towards a TT upgrade. But now that I have so much music on HD (many, many times more than the 700 LP's I have, it may make more sense to instead look at implementing some type of clocking management. It is the kind of up grade that is like getting a hi-end pre amp. Once you get a really good one, no mater what other up grades you make from then on, they will always sounds their best.

This is at the heart of the matter...

[wkhanna]

For anyone besides me following this conversation.......

a link to someone who did some comparisons on a few USB to AES/EBU converters LINK


Oh yes!
The Berkeley Alpha USB would be nice........

I got to tell you, Jon, I really get a kick out of how anytime I come up with a roadblock, you just throw $1k at it & 'Boom', :blowup: problem solved! :rofl:

But honestly, as I begin to understand more & more what you have been explaining, this solution to the clocking is at the heart of any good digital music reproduction. Regardless of the DAC, whether a $100 Schiit Modi or some $2k unit, without solving the timing issue you will never realize the potential of any DAC.

Once I get my NatP's 'duded up', my plan was to work towards a TT upgrade. But now that I have so much music on HD (many, many times more than the 700 LP's I have, it may make more sense to instead look at implementing some type of clocking management. It is the kind of up grade that is like getting a hi-end pre amp. Once you get a really good one, no mater what other up grades you make from then on, they will always sounds their best.

[JonMarsh]

No problem then, you just use a Berkeley Alpha USB to convert to AES/EBU and go from there! (got one, they're about as sweet as it gets on USB to AES or S/PDIF) Or not... or something a little less spend, like a HiFace EVO. you should be able to find decent S/PDIF cards fairly easily- AES is much harder, unless you're going Pro.

[wkhanna]

Remember, you can use S/PDIF as input.

Duh!!!! :banghead:

Yeah. I guess the idea is as long as your getting all the data in bit-perfect form (I hate to use this term cuz the more I read the more I see it getting abused) you do not have to worry so much about the intrinsic problems with clocking regardless of input type since the DCD8 is correcting it?

~ $250 for a clock does not sound exorbitant in the big picture when compared to $2k & above DACs.

Hey Dan.......if you drop by & read this, let me know if you remember what audio board/motherboard you used on my server.....?

Edit: never mind, a search In my emails found it - ASUS M5A97 LE R2.0 AM3+ AMD 970 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 ATX AMD Motherboard with UEFI BIOS

Looks like USB is my only current option.

[JonMarsh]

Well, you can put together a rubidium clock for around $ 200 - 250, as I did, so you go for the gusto. Remember, you can use S/PDIF as input.

As noted in my post above, others have noted that the DCD8 is a solid product without the rubidium oscillator, but with it is when you take the significant step. On any PC the consensus seems to be that the Lynx is one of the best, but it is expensive.

[wkhanna]

So you are saying one would need the rubidium clock connected to one of these to get the 'ultimate' benefit?

In my PC based system, I am relying on the way Dan has set the OS up to prioritize data feed to my DAC for maintain clocking accuracy.

We found significant improvement by inserting a Music Fidelity V-Link 192 - USB To SPDIF converter between the PC & DAC.

I suppose it must me doing something to improve clocking of the signal, too.

I wonder how much improvement might be accomplished by trying one of these just using its internal clock?

Of course, implementing AES/EBU from the PC to start with since my Gungnir DAC has an AES/EBU input might be a better place to start.

I'll have to check with Dan to see if there are any good audio boards we could use that have an AES/EBU output.

[JonMarsh]

Trying to wrap my head around this……..

So your data comes from your source (CD transport, computer HD, NAS, etc) to this device - then this unit will deliver the data at a precisely controlled rate to your DAC?

Format conversion? As in converting a SP-DIF feed from my server to coax on my DAC?

This unit has its own clock, but allows you to insert a different one? (I am trying to figure out what all the BNC terminals are for).


Sorry for the sophomoric questions……..
………just trying to get a better understanding of how, what & why….…..

Edit: I tried to find the manual to download.....but no luck....

Yup, no downloadable manual that I could find either. I wrote my colleague in Munich about this, and it turns out that he had checked out some earlier products from this company, and after I sent this info to him, fired off an email to them; he'd been I touch with their CEO and based on our experiments with the DCD8 had convinced him of the importance of a Rubidium clock and to try it out. This product was in development back then, and I believe released early this year.

It does not have a FireWire input like the the DCD8, but the basic functionality is very similar. Products like these are used in studios and motion picture sound post processing in order to have multiple digital systems operating in lockstep. They can use an external master clock or internal clock to generate clock distribution to the other pieces of gear, OR even another piece of digital audio gear or incoming signal from a remote feed can be used as the sample rate reference.

The purpose of the 10 MHZ input is to provide a very low noise, low jitter clock reference, which is then used as the master internal digital timing reference for all internal processing and the precise timing of the output word clocks.

In the studio or a broadcast van the main purpose is generating the high stability clock for keeping all the local gear in lockstep. In a playback system, we're doing something very specific; in the case of my friend's system, the DCD8 uses the input from the Sonore music server to set the sample rate, then re clocks it (which imposes the timing stability of the rubidium oscillator) and out puts the digital signal to the DAC. Word clock distribution isn't needed. Now, the DCD8 can be used without a Rubidium or GPS clock, then it uses high grade internal crystal oscillaors like most gear. But then you lose much of the "magic".

Format conversion means it can take in an optical or coax S/PDIF signal and output AES/EBU or vice versa if needed. This gives the possibility of taking in optical digital and really cleaning it up, in principle and output in coax or AES/EBU.

Similarly it can be an input multiplexer, say, taking in AES/EBU from a transport, coax from a music server, and optical from a PC, and output just on AES/EBU to the DAC, all signals re locked.

In our experience the re clocking with the rubidium oscillator has always opened up the soundstage and imaging and improved the transient definition with any DAC we've tried it with. Usually, the better the DAC, the more the improvement.

This company from Germany now has tried it and decided to include it, too. It's less expensive but seems to offer the same playback features that I think are important. Have to try it out to know for sure...

[wkhanna]

Trying to wrap my head around this……..

So your data comes from your source (CD transport, computer HD, NAS, etc) to this device - then this unit will deliver the data at a precisely controlled rate to your DAC?

Format conversion? As in converting a SP-DIF feed from my server to coax on my DAC?

This unit has its own clock, but allows you to insert a different one? (I am trying to figure out what all the BNC terminals are for).


Sorry for the sophomoric questions……..
………just trying to get a better understanding of how, what & why….…..

Edit: I tried to find the manual to download.....but no luck....

[JonMarsh]

A re-clocking alternative to Brainstorm DCD8 at half the price?

Well, those Pro Sound/Broadcast vendor mailing lists that I'm on every now and then turn up something interesting. That was the case this Friday, so though I don't have one of these, I have to say I find it intriguing, especially the possibility that it doesn't require double wire mode above 96 kHz. Possibility only, but still worth checking out.

The key point for me is that it takes a 10MHz reference clock (Rubidium clock or GPS disciplined clock) as the timing reference, and will do format conversion as well as re-clocking or clock distribution.

Unfortunately this will have to wait- I ordered a new iPhone earlier in the day, which emptied my discretionary slush fund for now. Maybe next month. The other key point is that this can be had for around $759 in the US through Markertek on special order.

http://www.mutec-net.com/product_mc-3-plus.php#features

http://www.markertek.com/Studio-Gear/Clocks-Timers-Stopwatches/Mutec/MC-3PLUS.xhtml

[JonMarsh]

You can strip windows down quite a bit as well, but it doesn't really get any more bare bones than linux.

Sure doesn't!

And now, I'm up to the "O"s! Making progress... Of course, that's just on stuff previously ripped- have tons of new stuff and old stuff I'll want on there, but will likely wait for the M52. Soft of like B52, I suppose, but further down the alphabet...

[Hdale85]

You can strip windows down quite a bit as well, but it doesn't really get any more bare bones than linux.

[JonMarsh]

Dang! Auto spellcheck strikes again!!!!

I guess my personal experience has been clouded by the fact that since retiring my CDp, I have upgraded my DAC twice & associate the improvements with CA in general.

One other thing I have experienced due to using better DAC's is finding, like you, my redbook files sound V good, & will often equal or better some of the HiRes files I have.

I wholly agree that there are few systems that are capable of reproducing all the information there is on a CD, given that it was produced with care in the first place.

Fully agree- in fact, part of what made early SACD releases work, IMO, is that the labels went back and did a lot more careful job of mastering the source- this is particularly true of a lot of Sony and Epic material. In fact, the real comparison for how good they were at that point side by side was comparing the few Sony SBM CD's available to the SACD counterparts. Closer than you might think, with the right equipment. And frankly, the reason I've gotten into the high falutin PCM, is because I couldn't a comparable performing SACD player at the same price- and that included the SA-7. So, for me, converting SACD to PCM made more sense- it makes even more sense now with the widening libraries of high bit depth and sample rate PCM from places like HD Tracks. Stuff is showing up on there that I never would have expected in the past...

[jim1961]

Dancing Bananas and Divine conceptions aside ... :W

...ive learned some things here and appreciate the participants input.

While one would like the music to sing for itself, like you Jon, it really motivates me to dig further down in my collection when some global upgrade has been instituted. Whether that be speakers, components, room treatment or DAC's, one feels like its all new again and gets the juices flowing again (read carefully Jon :B ).

[wkhanna]

...... Yet, when everything IS RIGHT, you have gained something.

I take this to 16bit vs 24bit audio as well. If your implementation isn't very good, it may be hard to realize the full difference or any difference at all.

On a bang for your buck scorecard, I am still unconvinced its worth it. But for ultimate performance without consideration for its cost(s), there clearly seems upward potential gain in this direction.

In my meager system, my vinyl rig is still king.
It would take quite a bit more $ than I could afford to do much better with digital.

[wkhanna]

As always, implantation is the critical factor.

Especially when you want to get your wife with child... :W



:banana: :rofl: :banana:

Dang! Auto spellcheck strikes again!!!!

I guess my personal experience has been clouded by the fact that since retiring my CDp, I have upgraded my DAC twice & associate the improvements with CA in general.

One other thing I have experienced due to using better DAC's is finding, like you, my redbook files sound V good, & will often equal or better some of the HiRes files I have.

I wholly agree that there are few systems that are capable of reproducing all the information there is on a CD, given that it was produced with care in the first place.

[JonMarsh]

As always, implantation is the critical factor.

Especially when you want to get your wife with child... :W



:banana: :rofl: :banana:

[JonMarsh]

Barry Diament, former Atlantic mastering engineer, and I had this discussion once and he recommended the direction you are. So this isn't the first time ive heard it nor are you alone in pointing people in this direction. His specific recommendation was running a high end Mac via firewire/AES into a DAC. Our discussion centered on 24bit implementation exclusively though.

Here is how I think of it.

Whenever you have more than one path or means to get somewhere you have to weigh things. I think what Jon is saying is basically that PC based audio must have everything right to be better. A under capable PC, a capable but over burdened (as in running too many other tasks) PC, less than optimal interface to the DAC, even the wrong interface cable, could be enough to use up or completely undermine the advantages your trying to gain sonically. What this points to is that the benefits are small to begin with. Yet, when everything IS RIGHT, you have gained something.

I take this to 16bit vs 24bit audio as well. If your implementation isn't very good, it may be hard to realize the full difference or any difference at all.

On a bang for your buck scorecard, I am still unconvinced its worth it. But for ultimate performance without consideration for its cost(s), there clearly seems upward potential gain in this direction.

I'm familiar with Barry, have bought some of his recordings, and we've exchanged emails. I have a Metric Halo LIO-8 with the full DSP package add on, and I think it's an incredible value for an 8 channel system with the ability to add very high quality mic preamps, too, to upgrade it to a ULN-8. It with a Mac or the DCD8 with a Mac are my two preferred computer based configurations. I wouldn't say it's the last word in DAC quality, but boy, a person could do a lot, lot worse! It and the M51 are quite close on a per channel sound quality basis, though I don't think the MH measures quite as well. It uses an analog output volume control, which is a sensible choice given the rest of the signal chain and the DAC chips used.

I still hope to get my newest Arvo Part configuration up and running with that some time, but now I'm also thinking about simply using it as a record and play back system for music learning. We'll see how that works out- they may not be mutually exclusive, though the Arvo's are too big for the space I'll have available for that!

Last comment, about the whole 16 bit versus 24 bit thing- without a doubt, I think the latter is quite worth while. But the whole ball of wax is a bit like the issue of CD versus SACD, and some of the inexpensive SACD players that came out- SACD's on those players could sound better than the equivalent CD on a similar machine, but that CD on something like an M51 would clean the clock of any of the top of the line megabuck Sony SACD players, regardless of source material type.

I'm really enjoying listening to my TotalDAC, because I've never heard CD sound this good- it's like taking every CD in my collection and turning it into a remaster again, compared to the best I've head it sound previously. When you have a lot of CD's and music you're into, well, that is a big deal. This is something my colleague in Munich has remarked on too, is that recordings he formerly thought of as "b" grade from a sonics viewpoint, are generally much more engaging and it has revitalized his interest in his whole collection.