Same Old Schiit

[wkhanna]

I am hesitant to make any comments seeing as I have only had the Gungnir for about two hours, & I know how sometimes off-the–cuff statements get micro-analyzed & over-vetted…….but I just wanted to share a few immediate impressions:

The first thing I did was play some tracks from some albums I was listening to just last night on the Bifrost.

BlueTrain - Blue note re-issue LP rip @ 96k:
BASS
More air around the sax, notably better image detail on all the instruments, more of an ‘in the studio’ feel. Sort of like being at the mixing console.

Ry Cooder , Election Special - Perro Verde / Nonesuch Records LP rip @ 96k:
BASS
Voices not clear or defined via the Bf are present and clear as a bell.
Maybe a tad bright in HF right now, not quite sure. Maybe a tad, but I bet it mellows out some with time if it is anything like the Bf.

Oh, and BASS
Lots of clean, balanced, musical BASS
Did I mention the BASS? The clean smooth natural & musical BASS?

Everything seems more immediate, too. Like noise that had been cluttering up the signal has been removed. Sort of like a bottle neck being removed allowing the music to flow at a more even & quicker pace. Maybe something to do with Jason's reference to the Gungnir being his Ferrari?

[wkhanna]

Maybe a tad bright in HF right now, not quite sure. Maybe a tad...........

After a few more hours with the unit, what I initially perceived as a bit of brightness has revealed itself to be realistic detail in the extended treble. Amazingly, it is so smooth as to not lend itself edginess or fatigue. Most impressive for any DAC. Both ends of the frequency range are extremely detailed, musical, transparent & engaging via the SPDF input. I ordered my unit without the USB input option so I can make no comparison between the two.

[PewterTA]

From what I've read on other places, it sounds like the USB is definitely inferior to th e SPDIF connections. So I don't think you'll really care about not having the USB connection.

We'll have to see if we can improve the SPDIF, I'll have to bring over my V-Link and see if that makes a difference over the output on the soundcard.

I'm also thinking to grab the 192 and just use that as my main output since I don't have an optical/spdif out.

Great to hear that you're noticing things already and they are all good... that means it can only get better with break-in!!!

[wkhanna]

I see the MF v-link 192 has 176.4Hz output. The Gungnir does not handle that IIRC.
I don't know if that matters a hole lot in the end, though.

The one thing I still like about the schiit philosophy is no Up-sampling.
I still say Up-sampling is boguss bolloks (redundant, I know). Up-sampling adds 1 & 0's NOT pressent on the original file. It adds 'tone' or signature not ment to be in the music. Like when AVR's first came out with all that DSP crap that allow them to make it sound like a concert hall, or live club, or in a cave, or on the moon, or ad infintium.....
Total bull schiit, IMHO.

edit added: Some say their files sound better when up-sampled.
I say, that is cuz the DAC lacks the ability to process the lower resolution file to its actual capabilities. I also say that is why some redbook files compare favorably to HiRes, along with the fact that the redbook version was engineered and mastered well to begin with.

[Hdale85]

Can't say I completely agree as there are some drawbacks to NOS DAC's as well, partially that you actually end up losing information from the original recording.

[wkhanna]

I agree that in theory, NOS can leave some information behind.
But over-sampling & up-sampling are two different things.
Schiit DAC's are not NOS to the best of my knowledge.

LINK

[wkhanna]

Someone else’s opinion the Gungnir: link

[PewterTA]

I'll be able to tell you how good it is.... I think I *might* be able to tell any differences between the Gungnir and the 840c. ha ha.

I'm still thinking of getting the MF V-Link 192... but I'd like to do some tests first. I'm going to see what I think of the V-Link over the Sound Blaster optical out to the unit... if it goes like I think... the V-Link will sound better than the Sound Blaster... and if that's the case... then the V-Link 192 will be worth the upgrade until the DAC/Pre upgrade at some point. lol

[wkhanna]

I think you are going to schiit your pants tomorrow when you come over & hear this thing for the 1st time. :B

[PewterTA]

I'll be over!!!!! I'm bringing the Vlink because I'd like to see what that sounds like compared to the SB...so that way took I'll have a baseline of how it works with yours and when I do my VLink vs. SB comparison on your DAC.

I'll be over towards 6pm(little after) if that works for you.

[wkhanna]

Any time after 6:00. :T
Let yourself in.
I do not move from the 'sweet spot' now. :

[wkhanna]

Dan just left.
Actually, Dan just left with my schiit.
I will be gone all weekend, so burn-in will continue, but in Dan's system.
Not mine.

I will leave it to him to keep you updated on how the process is proceeding.

[PewterTA]

Here's what I posted up over at Head-fi.og....

Okay... so my friend WKHANNA (BFF LMAO) just lent me his Gungnir for the next say 5 days or so... and here's my initial impressions with about an hour or two of going back and forth with it and my Cambridge Audio 840c....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
So far… here’s the “facts”…

Gungnir is -3dB over the CA 840c.
Gungnir has about 25 hours on it possibly (Wkhanna isn't really sure)
CA840c is almost 3 years old and has been slightly modified (all wires silver soldered)

Gungnir makes a clicking sound when switching different Sample Rates (small click sound, but loud enough to be heard about 9 feet away at listening position), CA840c does not make any sound.

Gungnir price and specs -- you know.
Cambridge Audio 840c - $1200 or $1400 when I bought it (can't remember), Adaptive Time Filter, Asynchronous upsampling to 24-384kHz, 32-bit Analog Devices "Black Fin" DSP, Dual Differential DACs (2x Analog Devices AD1955 24-bit running at 384kHz), Fully differential output stage, Anti-Aliasing Filter based on linear phase Bessel filters for constant group delay and minimum phase shift, DC Servo with no capacitors in the signal path. http://cambridgeaudio.com/assets/doc...Cspecsheet.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Signal Path:

Data located on a 40TB Raid 6 Win2k8r2 Server with 4GB connection (1GBx4) streamed to Win7 64bit laptop -> Foobar2000 -> ASIO4ALL -> WireWorld UltraViolet USB Cable -> Musical Fidelity V-Link (original one, 192 is on order) ->

Path Splits here:

Lifatec Glass Optical -> Cambridge Audio 840c ->
Silver Cat Interconnect -> Schiit Gungnir ->

Silver Cat Interconnects -> Rotel RSP-1098 (modified) -> Silver Cat Interconnects -> Rotel RB-1090 (modified) -> Cat Cables CatTails bi-wired (2 pair) -> Bowers & Wilkins 802D2.

I tried swaping the Optical and Digital Coax cables and honestly my opinions are completely identical... I couldn't even tell any differences that would've moved with the cable swap...so I left them as I normally have it (and it made it easier to demo both).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Music:

Melody Gardot - My One and only Thrill (CD and 24/96K Vinyl Rip)
Melody Gardot - Worrisome Heart (CD and 24/96k Vinyl Rip)
Dave Brubeck - Time Out (24/96K Vinyl Rip)
Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (200g 24/96K Vinyl Rip) -- is the best sounding thing I have period.

Various other Genres will be played over the next few days.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now... here’s the Opinions…

Gungnir over the CA840c:
-Slightly sharper, maybe clearer and/or slightly more detail. Also seems slightly thinner sounding because of this.
-Highs are slightly more detailed and crisp… almost to the point of being harsh.
-Midrange and vocals seem thinner, a little more detailed (especially brush work on a snare), but thinner almost harsh at points (listening to Melody Gardot especially). At times I noticed almost an echo to the voices that I could not hear on the 840c. Not sure if it's detailing the actual reverb/echo used at points to help make the voice sound better or what. It seemed like it belonged...but it also sounded odd at the same point.
-Bass is more emphasized in the lower range, probably in the 20 – 40hz is more prominent. Slight more detail.
-ound Stage is smaller and not as deep, placed slightly further back only sounding to come right at the plane of the speakers.
-Instruments will jump out with a little more life to them and might have a slight bit more detail and realistic-ness to them (on a very very small scale).

CA840c over the Gungnir:
-Sound stage is bigger and instruments are in a slightly different place (perhaps more focused in a location). Soundstage depth is deeper, still feels like my room has another 10ft beyond the wall.
-Highs are almost identical, with ever so slightly softer possibly every-so-slight less detail, sustain is identical.
-Midrange and vocals seem fuller and warmer (silky still) and slightly lower octive wise (could be the fuller effect though)… and maybe over all slightly ever-so-slightly “over-emphasized" and I did not notice the echoing effect that seemed to happen at points with the Gungnir. Voices are 'forward', more pronounced, louder, or "in your face" more.
-Bass is more emphasized in the upper lower range, probably in the 35 to 60Hz range.
-Soundstage is wider and deeper and is placed right at the speakers and sometimes comes more forward in presentation (slightly in front of the speakers)
-Instruments don’t jump out quite as much and seem to stay more in with the sound stage unless really called upon. It almost reminds me of the statement where when an amp can’t produce a sound properly (doesn’t have the power) the sound will come out sounding over emphasized vs. being more coherent with the whole soundstage. Not saying that’s the reason here AT ALL…just that is what it reminds me of… that type of thing.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion…

They are almost the same identical DAC. LOL. Each one has slightly different things it does slightly better/emphasizes more. Of course the Gungnir is still breaking in with an estimated 25ish hours on it, so I think the midrange should come around a lot and the highs will actually smooth out, but hopefully not lose the detail. I’m also figuring the soundstage should open up and be very similar to the 840c’s width and depth.

Both have impressed me. Gungnir for the price is AMAZING!!!! If I didn't have anything it would definitely be my DAC of choice. CA840c... the old dog STILL impresses!!!! It makes me feel really good that 3 years ago I picked out such a winner and my ears haven't failed me in knowing what sounds good. ha ha. This also brings up two more things... what will the Statement be like... I'm guessing on par with the NAD M51.

I wish Cambridge Audio's DACs were exact mirrors of what they are doing with the 800 series CDp's... well except for this new one which is a pre-amp as well... not sure if I like that, and the only updated the ATF, not changing the 2 Analog Devices DACs... So oh well, don't think that's a good purchase at the price raise of ~$400.

The only way I could quantify things at the moment is with numbers… lol

Gungnir:
High: 90
Mid: 86
Bass: 90
Soundstage: 86
Detail: 88
Total: 88

CA 840c:
High: 88
Mid: 88
Bass: 90
Soundstage: 90
Detail: 85
Total: 88.2

[Face]

Sharper and thinner than the 840C, no thanks!

[PewterTA]

Actually now that it's come into it's own... it's basically identical in every way to the 840c. I'd give a slightly better detail to the Gungnir (ever so slight). The sound stage is coming into it's own and has now matched the placement of the 840c. It has now reached about a 3 to 4 level of depth to the 4 to 5 of the 840c.

There is probably a slightly thinner sound to the voices...but it's actually I think a more realistic representation where the 840c is slightly emphasizing the voicing. It's really more of a personal preference.

Basically these are identical in almost every way one can judge with only the slightest differences. When you consider the half price difference... it's a really good buy.

Definitely my pick for best DAC under the NAD M51 (as I have not heard the NAD M51 I'm just going to assume it's better).

[wkhanna]

I just ordered the Schitt Gen2 USB board to try out in my Gungnir.
I have had it well over a year & have absolutely no regrets.
Actually, I love it.

I have been using the MF V-Link 192 to take USB from the motherboard on my PC.
I will have a report on the comparison shortly.

Also, a gift from Dan (the naD) will allow me to try out a HiFi Tuning fuse in the Gungnir, too.
So......lots of different stuff to talk about real soon.

Hey Dan, maybe see if you can move this thread to the new 'Digital' forum....?

[Hdale85]

Dan's not a mod on this area, but you may be able to move it? Or Doug or someone may have to.

[wkhanna]

Dooh !!!! :E

You are correct, Dougie.
I forgot I was Moderator at the 'Audio Hideout' forum.ops:

[wkhanna]

Well, I just remembered why I was holding out on the gen2 USB upgrade.

My NAS PC is in the adjacent room from my system.
I currently have a 1 foot WireWorld UltraViolet 7 running to the MF V-Link 192. Then a 10 foot BlueJean coax to my Schiit Gungnir.

Now I am faced with finding a decent USB cable to replace the long run required.
I would like to try the MapleShade Clearlink but alas, it is only available in a 3 foot length.
I could end up paying two to three times the Schiit USB price just to get a cable.

[JonMarsh]

do you have AES/EBU as an option on the digital side? You can get pro versions like Canare for a good price, run that long, not USB.

[wkhanna]

I'll have check the board in my NAS PC, but I don't think it has an AES/EBU output.
I would have to upgrade the board.
Probably a worthwhile thing to do, (slightly better quality board) but with all the other projects i have going on (atomic clock/MUTEC MC-3+ Smart Clock & Duded Up NatP's) it is not in the current budget.

[PewterTA]

If you are doing AES, then you aren't doing USB out to the board you just bought.... or is there a way to convert USB to AES?

[wkhanna]

Jon has always been a proponent of AES/UAB over USB, IIRC.
& the Gungnir has the AES/UAB input.
For USB to meet the Maestro's threshold of acceptance would require something like the Audio Design Alpha USB which is a bit beyond my budget.

[JonMarsh]

I thought you were running some kind of intermediate USB to digital interface, then to the DAC. Solution in that case would be a long AES/EBU cable, not USB.

[PewterTA]

He is right now, the MF V-Link192... it has coaxial and AES/EBU, I've tested this and there is no difference between the two connections to the M51 at all. I can switch back and forth all night long and no one can tell a difference between the two. I think it's possibly a limitation of the MF V-Link192... or goes to show how good it's Coaxial output is...

But with Bill getting the USB input for the Gungnir then he's forced to do a longer USB cable from the computer to the DAC.

My Point was that if he had wanted to do AES, then he could've saved the money on the USB input and put it towards a really good sound card that outputted AES...


On another note, I have to say PPA Studios USB 3 Audio grade PCIe card is really a nice improvement for the cost. It definitely smoothed things out and has a very nice. I think it's the ultra low jitter TCXO running at 24 MHz that really makes things less digital.

[wkhanna]

I thought you were running some kind of intermediate USB to digital interface, then to the DAC. Solution in that case would be a long AES/EBU cable, not USB.

As Dan (the naD) said, that is what i currently have with a MF V-Link 192 USB situated next to my NAS PC, then a 10 foot coax run to my DAC in the ajacent 'music' room.

I am V happy with the MF V-Link 192 performance.
The thing that caused the problem was I just read a review of someone who recently switched from the MF V-Link 192 to the gen2 USB module in their Schiit Gungnir who felt it was a little bit better.

With temps here in negative digits for weeks, I have been going a stir crazy & made an impulse purchase of $100 out of pure boredom.

My 'cabin fever' clouded my judgement, & I totally forgot about the cable-run conundrum.

Oh well, I always wanted to try the Schiit gen2 USB & if it does in fact add a small level of increased performance I'll figure a way to implement a permanent solution to the long cable run.

One solution is to run the cable thru the wall separating the NAS PC & the DAC.
I figure I could get that done while The Wife is out for a few hours & she would never pick up on the 'mod' for a long while.

It is often easier to ask for forgiveness rather than permission. :demon:

[Hdale85]

i think what Jon was saying is that a 10ft AES/EBU run would give a better signal than a 10ft USB or Coax cable as both of those have loss or interference issues over longer distances?

[PewterTA]

There's also the thought of moving the Gungnir in by the PC and then running the unbalanced over to the Carver..... as the unbalanced cables of that length (ie just another digital coax run of which you already have one) would be a lot cheaper than an extra long USB.

[wkhanna]

Great Minds!

I was thinking the same thing as another possible solution to add to the list.

[wkhanna]

i think what Jon was saying is that a 10ft AES/EBU run would give a better signal than a 10ft USB or Coax cable as both of those have loss or interference issues over longer distances?

IIRC, Jon has obtained better results across the board with AES/EUB, regardless of the cable length (as in: it is not USB).........

[mjb]

IIRC, Jon has obtained better results across the board with AES/EUB, regardless of the cable length (as in: it is not USB).........

Balanced is always better (especially with longer lengths), and the cable need not be expensive either (music shop). Theres a reason they use AES/EUB in the studio 8)

[JonMarsh]

IIRC, Jon has obtained better results across the board with AES/EUB, regardless of the cable length (as in: it is not USB).........

And you can get some pretty decently performing but reasonably priced pro AES/EBU cables - not spending over $50-$100 for moderately long ones.

[PewterTA]

His biggest problem is the fact that he only has AES/EBU outputs on the Gungnir to his amp, which doesn't give him volume control... hence the needed pre-amp. He also doesn't have AES/EBU input on the DAC, he does have BNC, but I believe that would be need of a converter (or is there AES/EBU to BNC cables -- haven't looked)...

I think his big options are hole in the wall with USB cable, move the Gungnir closer to the computer and another copper long RCA run, or move the gungnir and use some nice silver rca cables with a hole in the wall.

Now if he had a NAD.... with a nice Digital Volume control............. ha ha.

[wkhanna]

From the Schiit(y) Gungnir specifications:

Inputs: Coaxial RCA SPDIF, BNC SPDIF, Optical SPDIF, USB (optional)

Damn that Nad & Dan the naD!

Grrrrrr :M :W

[PewterTA]

A reclocker inbetween the computer and Gungir might fix that.... though still defeats the USB to the DAC.

[wkhanna]

The gen2 USB card arrived today.
Installation is easy:


There is an adhesive-backed plastic sticker covering the USB bulkhead on units shipped from the factory without the USB card.





Just peel it off.





The new gen2 USB card.





Match up the pins on the USB card to the sockets on the main board.





Once it is in place & fully seated, using the supplied hardware, screw the gen2 USB card on to the stand-offs.





The gen2 USB card installed.





After assembly of the chassis, the USB port is now accessible & ready to use.





The Gungnir back in place & ready for business.

[Finleyville]

Nice pics Billy. I look forward to seeing everything when I come over for the gtg.

[PewterTA]

Can't wait to see and hear it!!! I wonder if it would work (be long enough) for me to bring my USB & iFI USB over so we could hopefully hook it up via usb?!?!?

There should've been DeOxit Gold put on those pins! ha ha

[wkhanna]

There should've been DeOxit Gold put on those pins! ha ha

Good point, every little bit helps.
We can do that when I put the HiFi Tuning Fuse in during the gtg. :W

[PewterTA]

I'm good with doing it then, but doesn't it take a bunch of time to open it up and put it in, then we have to check direction as well... Like I said, I'm all for it, just checking.

I'll bring my deoxit gold as well.

[wkhanna]

I have had it apart a few times, it does not take long at all now.