$3000 Challenge

[Brian Barnes]

Jason,

Great Info!

You have a great point regarding the importance of the speakers.

Fronts: I figured to use the C-3 mains. (wow, here is one speaker nailed down!)

Rears: Would there be any noticable difference between the C-1 vs. the XL 150 or encore? What would be the best compliment to the C-3's?

Center: What does the C-C3 offer that the C-C1 does not? Once again, would there be a noticable difference? If so, please elaborate.

Once Again,

Thanks

Brian

[aud19]

Well the best match in the rear for the front C-3's would be more C-3's but really the C-1's, XL-150 or Encore should be fine for your rears. Whichever fits in your budget. Obviously, the best one you can afford would be, well, best. Basically they just won't offer as deep of bass and won't have quite as lovely of a tweeter (though I own XL-150's and they're no slouch either but the C-series tweeters are pretty sweet :P ) But with good bass management there shouldn't be a problem using smaller or lower lines of speakers. Besides most rear channel info is fairly ambient. The front three channels deserve more money for better clarity, imaging etc.

The difference between the C-C1 and C-C3 is basically size. The C-C3 will be able to handle deeper voices, louder noises etc with out getting "boxy" sounding. Smaller centre speakers tend to have more difficulty reproducing voices, especially deeeper ones, without sounding boxy. As I mentioned before the centre speaker is arguably the most used speaker in most movies as such I feel it's important to not skrimp here.

Jason

[Andrew Pratt]

FYI here's a cheaper Rava Rava For Sale

[Brian Barnes]

Well, Today I took a trip to a local audio store and listened to more speakers to see if the Energy C-series is what I really wanted. I believe this trip has changed my mind! I listened to a paradigm set-up and was really impressed. Even more so than the energy speakers. The set-up was Monitor 3's (fronts) :::Cinema 90 (rear) :::: CC-370 (center) ::: PDR-12 (sub). The sound quality seemed to have a more depth than the energy speakers. Note: this same store was previously a energy dealer (this is how I located them) but they have since dropped the energy speakers from there in-store inventory. What made it interesting was that they carried the Klipsh cinema 10 which is what I orginally compared to the Energy speakers. Note: When I listened to the Klipsh and the energy side by side, there was very little difference between the two. Today, when I compared the Klipsh Cinema 10 to the Paradigm Monitor 3 I could detect a fairly significant difference.

Secondly, It appears that the Paradigm is a little more affordable to boot.

Encore:
Connoisseur series
C-3 Blk Energy C3 Front C1 Rear C-C1 Center shielded 2-way
bookshelf speakers - Black Ash (pair)
:::::::$1053 (less sub)::::::::::
CHT-10 Velodyne Sub $350.00
System Total Cost: $1403.00

-----------------------------------

Paradigm:
Monitor 3 (fronts) $389.00 pr
Cinema 90 (rears) $179.00 pr
CC-370 (center) $315.00 pr
:::::::::$883.00 (less Sub)::::::::::::
PDR-12 (sub) $389.00
System Total Cost: $1272


What do you guys think about the Paradigm vs. the energy. Same ball park? Am I missing something here?

Thanks,

Brian

[aud19]

Paradigms are also very nice, they were also on my short list :T

Let me just say though before you make a snap judgement.. you listened to the Paradigm's in a totally different acoustic environment and likely on totally different gear. Is there any local shops that carry both for a more direct comparison? Not to take away from Paradigms as they're also quite nice :T It might just come down to which store will give you a better discount...

Jason

[Brian Barnes]

There is one more store here in Houston that is a energy dealer. I have not made a trip to their store. They are on the other side of town (Houston, that is a long ways!) I could call them and see if they carry both the Energy and the Paradigm. Although, as I stated earlier, I did compare the Klipsh to the energy and Klipsh to the paradigm. Not much difference between the Klipsh and the energy at store #1. Klipsh vs. Paradigm at store #2 there was a fairly large differnce. The knock that I have on the Klipsh speaker is that the tweater sounds somewhat like a horn (guess it is a horny speaker!)

Regarding the price points. I have not drilled the Energy dealer on price. I did tell the Paradigm dealer today that I was serious and that I planned on making a purchase soon. I explained to him that I needed his best price because I would be price shopping and if I found a better deal, I would not give him a second opportunity to beat the price that I found. He got on his little calculator and worked it over for about 5 minutes and gave me the prices that I earlier posted. After coming home I have since done some googling and so far I have not found them cheaper. It appears that there is not an on-line dealer for Paradigm speakers. Apparently, Paradigm is protecting it's local dealers>


Brian

[aud19]

You won't find any authorized Energy dealers online either as far as I know.

I wouldn't be surprised that the Energy/Klipsh didn't sound all that different if they were in the same room and connected with the same electronics. Believe me, the room alone has a LOT to do with how your system sounds. Also the first Energy store might have been using Yamaha, Denon etc gear whereas the Paradigms might have used Rotel, Parasound etc...? Do you know what the sources were? I don't want to come off seeming defensive here but truly the only way to do a fair comparison is side by side with the same sources, amps etc. Your mind will automatically pick what's in front of you as "better" too. The good you're listening to now will almost always sound better than the good you heard two days ago.

EDIT:I'm not try to disuade you from Paradigm, as I've said, they make great gear too but I also don't want you to dismiss Energy without a direct comparison. Sorry if this is coming off pro-Energy or defensive. Honestly I'd recommend the same thing with any speaker companies.

Jason

[Sonnie Parker]

Brian... have you had a chance to listen to any PSB speakers... mainly the Image line or even less expensive is their Alpha line? I think they would fall in your price range and they are highly respected and well reviewed by all the top magazine reviewers.

PSB Speakers

Don't mean to throw another curve in your decision making process but I have sure enjoyed my PSB's. Of course I'd probably be just as happy with Energy or Paradigm.

[Brian Barnes]

Both stores had their speaker arrangement going through Denon's 3805 receiver. The first store that I compared the Energy to the Klipsh was clearly a "sound room". The second room that I listened to the Klipsh and the Paradigm was wide open and actually had poor acoustics (semi echo effect) The second room which was much more representational of my living room. This is where the Klipsh had a horn sound. The Paradigms were very smooth. In both places we watched videos and listened to music. I agree, the ideal scenario would be to have all three together side by side driven by the same receiver. Unless the third store carries all three, I will not be able to run that test.

Sonnie, I have not heard of PSB speakers. What is their background? How do they compare to the Energy and Paradigm speakers?

Brian

[aud19]

PSB are also very nice and tend to be very neutral. They seem to do less volume (sales) than Paradigm or Energy which may mean you won't be able to get as much of a discount but another good suggestion :T

Jason

[Brian Barnes]

With all things being equal, I would prefer to go with the biggest name biggest seller. This should make any after the purchase issues simpler to resolve.

Brian

[Brian Barnes]

$3000 Home Theater System Re-cap:

Here were my original selections:
TV: Sony 30" Wide Screen HDTV model :KV30HS420 $999 (35 3/8" O.D.)
DVD player: Zenith DVB318 or LG equivalant $200
Receiver: Denon AVR 1804 $400
Speakers: Energy Encore $1000
:::::::::::system Total: $2600 (plus cables, connectors, etc...)

And here is where I am now with my choices:
TV: Sony 30" Wide Screen HDTV model :KV30HS420 $899 (35 3/8" O.D.) currently offering $100 rebate.
DVD player: Denon 1910 $250 (due out Later in August)
Receiver: Denon AVR 1804 $400
Speakers: Paradigm: Monitor 3, Cinema 90, CC-330 & PDR-12 $1272
:::::::::::: System Total: $2822 (plus cables, connectors etc...)

So what do you guys think about these selections? Is there any components that you believe are hands down better for the same price points? Thus, the TV & Receiver did not change but the DVD player & Speakers did change.

Thanks,

Brian

[aud19]

Looks good to me :T Short of looking at other speakers or seeing who'll give you a better deal on Energy or Paradigm.... I'd say your good to go You getting the Paradigm sub then with the rest of the speakers?

Jason

[Sonnie Parker]

Sounds like it will be a jam up system Brian.

Jim McGuinness of Denon advised me that the new DVD players should be in stores by September but in limited quanity. I was kinda hoping to see them here in early August myself.

I'd get a pre-order in as soon as someone would let you.

Btw... ecost.com has the Denon 1804 for $285 and you can add a 2yr warranty for a total of $329 shipped ground UPS. The good thing about these units is they are tested to spec by Denon... usually there's less chance of something being wrong with them than out of new dealer stock. I just picked up a 2805 with a 3yr warranty for $607.

[Brian Barnes]

Sonnie,

What are the main differences between the 1804 and the 2805. Knowing that I am going with relatively small speakers would the 2805 do anything for me that the 1804 would not?

Thanks,

Brian

[Brian Barnes]

Jason,

Yea I thought the Paradigm sub did a good job so I will probably go with the PDR-12

Brian

[Brian Barnes]

Hey guys,

take a look at the thumbnail attachment of my living room on the first post. I am curious to how the Monitor 3's would work if I had them on top of the bookshelves on either side of the TV vs in the bookshelves themselves. I was wondering if I put them up top and built a wedge that would angle the speaker so that it would aim towards the couch. This would be more out of the way. Please advise.

Brian

[aud19]

Try to avoid putting speakers in anything. Speakers need open air around them to work properly. You should in fact have them a couple feet from walls behind and beside them. Placing them in a cabinet or shelf will likely create a "boxy" sound not dissimilar to cupping your hands around your mouth. Buy or build some nice solid/heavy stands for them to sit on, you'll be much happier

Jason

[Brian Barnes]

So would there not be a problem with putting them on top of the bookshelves and angling them downwards to the listening area? As you can see from the picture, the top of the bookshelf is 6.5' high and the seating area is about 10' from the entertainment center.

Brian

[Sonnie Parker]

Sonnie,

What are the main differences between the 1804 and the 2805. Knowing that I am going with relatively small speakers would the 2805 do anything for me that the 1804 would not?

Thanks,

Brian

The 2805 is a newer model (just recently released) with a tad more power at less distortion and adds these features over the 1804:

* Analog Devices HammerHead SHARC 32 bit floating point DSP processor.

* Dolby Pro Logic IIx: Dolby Pro Logic IIx furthers the matrix decoding of Dolby Pro Logic II to decode audio signals recorded on two channels into up to 7.1 playback channels, including the surround back channel. Dolby Pro Logic IIx also allows 5.1-channel sources to be played in up to 7.1 channels. The mode can be selected according to the source. There are 3 Dolby Pro Logic IIx modes: Music, Cinema and Game. (The Game mode is for 2-channel sources only.)

* Additional Surround Modes:
Dolby Pro Logic IIx
DTS-ES Extended Surround
DTS 96/24
Denon Original Surround Modes (DSP)
Wide Screen
Super Stadium
Classic Concert
7CH Stereo

* Two-channel Music Modes: There are three 2-channel playback modes exclusively for music: Pure Direct: plays back music with an extremely high level of sound quality. All the video-related circuits and the front panel display are turned off so that music signals are reproduced with high quality. When an analog mode is selected, the digital processing circuits are also turned off to achieve the highest purity.
- Direct: audio signals bypass the tone control circuits, and are transmitted directly, resulting in good quality sound.
- Stereo: allows you to adjust the tone to achieve the desired sound while watching video images.
- AL24 Processing: The receiver includes Denon's renowned 24-bit ALPHA processing technology that reproduces digital signals in a waveform with the smoothness of analog signals. This technology thoroughly suppresses annoying quantization distortion and faithfully reproduces the delicate musical details of low-level signals. AL24 processing works in 2-channel Stereo, Direct, Pure Direct modes.

* Auto Setup/Room EQ: The receiver is equipped with an Auto Setup and Room Equalization function, to achieve the most ideal sound field for your room. With the supplied DM-S305 microphone placed at the listening position, the 32-point DSP automatically and accurately analyzes, adjusts and sets the speaker configurations of your system. The receiver also analyzes and adjusts the frequency response of the speakers to the room with an 8-band parametric equalizer. You can also manually adjust the 8-band equalizer from -6dB to +6dB in 0.5dB steps at 63Hz, 125Hz, 250Hz, 500Hz, 1kHz, 2kHz, 4kHz and 8kHz.

* Room EQ Memory: Once the Auto Setup has been performed, the receiver can memorize a maximum of 4 equalizing curves called "normal," "front," "flat," and "manual," allowing you to recall your favorite EQ curve without having to run Auto Setup each time. You can also "assign" an EQ curve for each surround mode, plus select the EQ to be on or off for the Pure Direct/Direct modes.

* More Subwoofer Crossover Frequencies: You can adjust the cutoff frequency of the subwoofer output from 40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz, 150Hz, 200Hz or 250Hz.

* Video Up Conversion: The receiver's video transcoding technology converts composite and S-Video signals to component video signals and output to the monitor. This allows you to enjoy the highest picture quality from all video gear connected to the receiver. In addition, composite video signals are up converted to S-Video and S-Video signals are down converted to composite for connecting convenience.

* HD Video Switching: The unit has three assignable component video inputs and a high-performance relay that is used to switch the signals. The switcher has an extended bandwidth range of up to 100 MHz, making it compatible with progressive DVD (480p) and HDTV formats (720p and 1080i).


A few of the additions I really like is the idea of having a higher bandwidth for HD Video Switching (100mhz vs. 30mhz) along with the Video Up-Conversion.

Probably my favorite feature is the Auto-EQ (however I don't know how well it will work - I've read good and I've read mixed emotions). Analog Devices has some interesting white paper on the Sharc-ART processor that might be worth you reading... it's fairly short:

Sharc-ART White Paper

Overall I think the 2805 would be a ready for you if you decided to upgrade to larger fronts and/or 7.1. Also if you decided to sell your receiver it will have much more of the later technology that Denon has recently employed into their receivers.

Oh yeah... a somewhat of a secret feature is you can bridge the 6th and 7th channel into the left and right front channels for 200wpc while still have 5.1.


...

[Brian Barnes]

Sonnie,

I hear you loud and clear but I have a few questions. If someone walked into my house and listened to music or watched a movie @ performance levels, would they be able to tell the differnce between the 1804 and the 2805? If so, how much of a differnce would the 2805 have over the 1804 with the component set-up that I indicated in earlier posts?

If there is not a clear noticable difference, I don't believe I would perceive the value that the 2805 would offer me. There is a huge difference in price $700 vs. $375. I guess that I will have this system for at least 5 years. Would'nt you think that it would be better to spend less now on the 1804 and in 5 years possible spend up to the newest technology at that time including upgrading speakers etc....?

Thanks,

Brian

[Andrew Pratt]

Brian if you end up with a choice between getting lesser speakers now and the higher priced reciever go for the better speakers..you'll own them far longer then the reciever...at least most of us do

[Sonnie Parker]

You know... it's hard to say... but my guess would be that you would hear and see a difference between the two because of a few factors.

1 - The Auto-EQ... now according to several who own the Denon's and Yamaha's with this feature they can do an A/B (activate and de-activate) the feature and tell quite a difference. If you read the white paper on what Analog Devices is doing with the Sharc-ART processor it's pretty impressive to me. It is equalizing not only the primary listening position but rather a broader area for even listeners not seated in the primary listening position. Now I have questioned how this can be done and will only be able to verify it once I get my 2805. Again... others have claimed it works very nicely for them. If in fact the Auto-EQ works as advertised then definitely "yes" you should hear a difference for the good both on music and movies.

2- AL24 Processing sounds like it would make a difference for music but I'm not a music man (2 channel man) so maybe someone who is familiar with this technology could tell you whether you'd notice a difference with it. From what I've read on the technology it sounds like it's something special but I just don't know. Possibly.

3 - If you have sources such as satellite, VCR, laserdisc, etc., that are composite or s-video output then the Up-Conversion to component should benefit you here. Again... I've read where others say that it's very nice and in fact improves on these sources... if you have those sources and need the feature. I don't so it doesn't benefit me right now. I'm considering an S-VHS VCR purchase so it come into play for me down the line.

4 - If you use your receiver for component switching then the HD Switching should benefit your picture. I have read that several have noticed improved PQ over previous receivers because of this. One specific thread mentions a fellow with an older model Denon with 30mhz bandwidth component switching noticed (and even his wife noticed it too) better PQ with the newer 100mhz bandwidth switching.

As far as price... you can get a 2805 cheaper than $700 but you might feel obligated to buy from the same dealer you are buying your other equipment. If that's the case then I suppose you'll have to decide it the extra's are worth $325.

Keep in mind too that I have not witnessed or verified any of these features myself so I can not explicitly say that they work. I have only researched them and found reviews and references and other threads concerning them... and of course what Denon claims.

Maybe some others here can say if these features (if indeed any of them will benefit you) might be worth the extra.

Whatever you do don't do it because of what I alone say or report. It's mainly just something for you to contemplate for yourself and a possible option. At least you won't go home with equipment saying that you didn't have an opportunity to hear about an optional piece of equipment.

Does the dealer you are working with have the Denon 2805 to compare to the 1804? Maybe one of the dealers can let you listen to both and fill you in on some of the features a little better than I can.

I also echo Andrew's thoughts... don't trade more receiver for lesser speakers. I think speakers really are one of the first most important pieces of equipment you buy and then build around those.

[aud19]

Yup keep the speakers as your first priority. You can always upgrade processing/amplification later as you stated

Jason

[Brian Barnes]

Sonnie,

What receiver do you currently have and when are you buying the 2805? Also, what is the best price that you have found for the 2805? I have no loyalties to the local dealer. The auto-EQ has me curious

Also, I want to say "damn you for making this drag out longer"! Just kidding. I really appreciate the feedback and it is definately worth trying to see / hear the difference for myself. Now I need to find a dealer that has both the 2805 and the 1804.

Thanks,

Brian

[Sonnie Parker]

lol... well at least you will have considered another option and maybe that will at least give you more comfort in your final decision.

Yeah... the Auto-EQ function is sounding nice. Something I did not mention is it also has Auto-Setup calibration. It measures the distance of your speakers to the tenth of a foot, sets the levels, delays... all with the supplied mic. No more Radio Shack SPL meter and test tones for setting up your receiver and speakers.

You are gonna probably say I'm crazy (and I it's true I am to an extent) but I don't have a receiver right now. I have a Rotel 1066 pre/pro and have never owned a receiver before. Yeah... beginning to really sound crazy huh? Yep... I'm actually going out on a whim and replacing my 1066 with a 2805 (albeit temporarily if I'm not satisfied). Initially I am going to continue to use my Sunfire Cinema Grand as my main amp and bi-amp my mains and power my center with it. I'll use the 2805 to power my surrounds only and as my pre/pro. If I like the 2805 as a pre/pro then I will go a step further and use it without my Sunfire (as a trial initially) as a stand alone receiver powering my entire HT. Or I may go vise-versa and try the 2805 standalone first. If I end up being satisfied and happy I'll sell the Rotel and the Sunfire and be way ahead.

This is my thinkin' (what the heck... I'm a risk taking type person and it might just pay off)... I've read hundreds of threads (maybe even thousands) with people using recievers priced under $1000 in their HT and they are perfectly happy. I'm not just taking their word for it but I am going to give it a shot and find out for myself if I can be happy. My room is small... 11 X 19 X 8 with no windows... it's tight. I think this 2805 will do the trick for me. It will only be handling frequencies above 80hz as I will most definitely keep my HGS-15 sub. Keeping in mind that I'm pretty much totally HT and just don't care about music that much (other than a few concert DVD's all along).

Brian... my ears are just not what they use to be and I don't over do the volume when I'm watching anyway. Yes I have it up loud but not reference levels as some do. I just don't think I need all that I have to make me happy. I could be totally wrong but I won't know until I try it. If it don't work then I'll go back to what I had or search for something else that will satisfy me.

I have the 2805 on order right now... hoping it will ship tomorrow from ecost.com. Price is $530 shipped and I added a 3yr warranty with the total price ending up at $606 or $607... I can't remember exactly and the e-mail confirmation is at the office. I think they have sold out of the black models and are only offering silver right now though. They'll probably have more black in stock pretty soon.

[Brian Barnes]

Definately sounds like I need to check it out. I could see the value in the auto speaker set-up mode. Does it automatically adjust levels based on speaker position? If so, please explain briefly what is taking place within the receiver during the auto calibration mode. I am going to take a look at ecost, if I can get it for $530 I would probably buy up and get it.

Once again, Thanks for the help!

Brian

[Sonnie Parker]

Yes... automatically adjust levels based on speaker position.

You will setup your mic in the prime listening position at ear level (where your head will be when listening) and select Auto Setup/Room EQ in the receiver menu. The receiver will output short test tones from each speaker and calculate the distance, delay, and levels and at the same time it will calculate the the most serious problems with frequency response and make parametric adjustments to help correct these problems. I believe there are 8 or 9 adjustments it can make to each speaker for equalization. You can then choose between several eq settings that the unit has setup.

This is a vague description of what it does.

You can download the manual for a better description of how it all operates.

[Brian Barnes]

I have been looking for the Denon 2805 receiver on ecost.com They currently are not selling it but they are offering the 2803. Can anyone tell me the differences.

Thanks,

Brian

[Shane Martin]

Brian,
I'm sorry I have not responded much to your email but it looks like the guys here are taking good care of you.

There are big differences in the 2803 and 2805.
The 2805 adds alot of things including more component ins, more bandwidth for them, auto setup EQ with mic, PLIIX amongst many other things. If you can pay the extra to buy it locally and negotiate a nice deal then I'd go that route. I'm sure some of our Houston guys here can hook you up.

[David Meek]

Brian, IMO three of the four things Shane mentioned above are deal-breakers. Wait until you can get the 2805:

1) More component inputs - As we get more and more source equipment that has component outputs, the need for a receiver that can be used as a switcher is becoming a basic need in a theater. This will only become more necessary as time goes on. Think "future proof".

2) Wider bandwidth on inputs/outputs - Be absolutely sure that the receiver you go with has the capacity to handle the FULL incoming (and outgoing) video signal(s). Truncation of the signal - depending on its severity - will negate the benefits of having a true hi-definition TV/projector. Why spend the money to get the good stuff and then have your receiver degrade what you are seeing? There's that "future proof" thing again. . . .

3) Automated room E/Q - I cannot imagine someone getting into home theater/music today that would not consider this a major item on their receiver/pre-pro. Having this feature will almost immediately get you closer to a reasonably calibrated audio environment. Admittedly some are better than others, but to be able to start out closer to that mythical "ideal" BEFORE spend hour-upon-hour of testing/modifying/moving is huge.

4) DPLIIx - The importance of this one depends on your musical listening preferences. The more you want a surround environment, the more important it is. Being a two-channel kind of a guy, it would make little or no difference to me. YMMV.

As always, this is just my 2 cents. Best of luck to you whichever way you go. And yes, us Houston-area types can help ya out - we'd love to help you spend your money! It keeps us from spending what's left of ours so quickly. :

[number17]

Ok here's my 2 cents ...

IMHO I don't really think the video capability of a receiver is a deal breaker. I really don't. Yes it'd be nice if you can plug all your component inputs into the receiver and switch using the receiver, but otherwise your TV in all likelihood can take some component inputs too ... between say a 2803 (which has 2 component in) and your TV you should have enough component in's for the moment. You might need more components in's in the future, but for now you're fine.

In fact, in the past Marantz receivers didn't even have component inputs ... their philosophy is you should plug the video source directly into the TV for the least amount of signal loss / degradation ... since the receiver doesn't do anything with the component video signal anyways (but switching) it should go directly into your TV. They have changed that philosophy since then though, cos all competition support video switching / upconverting that they have to keep pace.

As for the auto EQ / Auto calibration feature ... I have hear mixed reviews on it. Some say it's straight forward and accurate, but some would still go back to manual calibration. My 2 cents is - my toshiba RPTV has auto calibration and it works fine, but somehow I still like to manually fine tune it after it does that ... so if you ask me do I think auto EQ helps? I think so. But is it a must? Not really.

And my point is this - if all things are equal, and I have the choice between a 2803 and a 2805 then of course, the 2805 is a no-brainer.

But things are never equal ... 2805 runs you over Cdn$1k while you can find used 2803's for ~ Cdn$600-700. For receivers, you always pay more for the latest and the greatest technology, but technology changes so fast by next year when the 2806 comes out there will be features that you miss ...

My 2 cents is, I'd rather be 1-2 years behind the latest technology, but update the receiver often in the used market ... that way you always have the relatively new technology without having to cough up a lot.

That's just my 2 cents though.

[Brian Barnes]

Great info guys. I will continue to look and see if I can find a discounted 2805. David, do you have any suggestions towards a local vendor here in Houston that I can purchase Paradigm speakers, Denon DVD and Receiver from?

Thanks,

Brian

note: I have gone by Allstar Electronics @ town & country mall.

[David Meek]

The Home Theater Store locations handle Denons. Friends of ours had a pretty good experience with the one at Highway 249 and Highway 6. The only Paradigm dealer I can find is:

SoundWorld
9788 Bellaire Blvd, #C
Houston, TX
77036
713-778-9120

Hope this helps.

[Brian Barnes]

Hey guys, need your help to finalize my speakers.

I am going with the Paradigm Speakers:

Monitor 3's (fronts)
Atoms (rears)
cc370 (center)

Sub:??????????????? Here is where I need the help

I have decided not to skimp so I am looking for suggestions. What can you guys tell me about the differences between the PW-2100 vs. PW-2200. Both are 400 watts but the low frequency extension for the 2200 is 18hz. vs 23hz with the 2100. The PS-1200 is 21hz but only 200 watts. Also, what price should I expect to pay for any of these models. I was quoted $540 for the 1200 but did not get prices for the 2100 & the 2200 yet.



Thanks,

Brian

[purplepeople]

Sorry for not weighing in sooner... but I only just joined recently.

May I suggest Tannoy Proto-J studio monitors. They are easily as good as the 3's and cost about the same as the Atoms (actually less where I live). They are +/-3dB from 60Hz-20kHz and will accept 100W programme. They are very good but don't come is various "woods" so the WAF may be wholly different. On the other hand, the difference may go into some nice earrings so you get the best of all worlds... happy ears on both your and your spouse.

ensen.

[David Meek]

Sub:??????????????? Here is where I need the help

I have decided not to skimp so I am looking for suggestions. What can you guys tell me about the differences between the PW-2100 vs. PW-2200. Both are 400 watts but the low frequency extension for the 2200 is 18hz. vs 23hz with the 2100. The PS-1200 is 21hz but only 200 watts. Also, what price should I expect to pay for any of these models. I was quoted $540 for the 1200 but did not get prices for the 2100 & the 2200 yet.

Brian, I've seen MSRP's of $750 for the 2100 and $929 for the 2200. If you are set on the Paradigms, I'd recommend the 2200. However, if you are interested, investigate a couple of "bang for the buck" sub companies before you buy any of the Paradigms. Paradigm does make a good speaker, but IMO there are better subs out there in that price range. Look at SVS or Hsu for their comparably priced models.

Now, I like my bass a little less "ported" sounding. More of a controlled and accurate sound I guess, so I went with a Velodyne sealed cabinet, servo-controlled unit. Admittedly that's a bit above the price point you are looking at, but if you can stretch a bit, I'd sure push hard for you to listen to one. That's not a slap at the other subs, just a preference of mine.

[Brian Barnes]

David,

What SVS and HSU model do you recommend?

Note: My room is 20' x 15' (hard wood floors) with many openings to other rooms.

Thanks,

Brian

[David Meek]

Well, let's set a ceiling of $900 or so, okay? With the size room you have (and with several openings) you'll need a good sized sub to pressurize it. For the SVS, I'd recommend the PC+ 20-39. And, if that one doesn't float your boat, in the Hsu line, I'd recommend the powered TN-1220. Both companies get good marks for customer service, at least from the things I've read and heard in conversations.

[David Meek]

Oh, let me clarify - both of those are powered subs. The reason for the comment on the Hsu is because it comes in a passive version too.

[Brian Barnes]

If possible I would like to stay within the $600 price range. What are your thoughts about the SVS PB1-ISD?

[David Meek]

Brian, I couldn't stay up any later. :tired:

I haven't heard the PB1, but like all the SVS units, it specs out nicely and looks good - especially for $599. One thing I like is the down-firing woofer. That's a nice thing if you have small children or cats. Things like the cast aluminum driver basket (instead of a stamped one), L and R line-level connectors (instead of a single one) and detachable power cord all point to a better grade of componentry than you normally find at this price point. I also like the pebbled black finish - it gives it a distinctive look over the standard veneers.

[Sonnie Parker]

Hey Brian...


The PW-2200 is a fine sub... I'd go with it if I were choosing from the Paradigm's only. I don't know if you could get it for $600 though.

You might consider the Adire Audio Dharman as it has 12db more output at 20hz over the 2200 and the Dharman is only $599. I believe the power amp might even be a little bigger.

A good reference for subs is Tom Nousaine's sub test page:

http://members.cox.net/frankcarter/Tom%20Nousaine%20Sub%20Data.htm

The PB1 isn't listed yet but you'll see the PW-2200 and the Dharman up top. Notice the output of the 2200 vs. the Dharman at 20hz (84db vs. 96db). The overall ranking is based on average output between 25hz-62hz and the 2200 is at 108db while the Dharman is at 107.9db... hardly a difference. I'd go for the lesser priced and higher output at the lower frequency if it were me. I'd also check out that PB1 as well.

You can buy the Dharman directly from Adire Audio at http://www.adireaudio.com/ (Click on Home Audio and then click on Dharman listed under Subwoofers).

[Shane Martin]

Subs:
A couple options are the SVS Pb1 ISD. Top notch customer service. It's unlikely anyone will touch them for that reason alone. Email SVS and they will tell you what you should get/expect. They will not oversell you.

Or

Parts Express has a Titanic Kit from the 12" driver. I think it runs $600. A local guy bought one and has been REALLY impressed with it. It's a sealed box as well.

My friend owned a very nice HGS 15 from velodyne. I think It ran around $2k new. He replaced it with a pair of SVS CS+'s. Absolutely no comparison in the level of bass here. The SVS was its equal on music(a myth IMHO on their subs), and the low end impact was outstanding. The tubes just diappear in his room and his kids don't even bother them. Neither does his dog. They have a new sub out too called the PB10ISD. I would email about that one and the Pb1isd.

Speakers: I preferred the monitor 5's myself but alas if they aren't in the budget or too big then ignore me