Pre-pro shopping list, 8K or under

[Lex]

Yeah, 8K is a lot to spend. But how about 13K for the Theta CBII!?! Wow, Theta really is proud of that thing, huh?

Of course the MC12 may be close, what, 10 with XLRs? I know at least one of our new members is shopping pre-pros, and just can't seem to find what he wants for less than the 13K CBII. Ideas?

Let's analize what is out there, the pros and cons, and see if we can help out here.

I own the MC-1, a great pre-pro, but of course, aging relative to today's uploadable software options, it is a digital processor, so the benefits for DVD Audio and SACD just aren't there for the most part, cause everything gets converted to digital anyway.

But if you want just a good HT controller, well, the MC-1 is tough to beat, especially at used prices. I traded up for mine from a DC-1. But just couldn't justify the trade up to the MC12, so I didn't even consider it.

Lex

[Bob]

There is a used CBll at audiogon for $7500. I didn't look to see how it was configured. There are always good deals on used equipment somewhere which often makes the unaffordable affordable.

[Lex]

Hmm, good point Bob, I have gotten several good used buys myself. Not that all were unatainable new, but hey, a good deal used can be well, just a good deal.

My used list or demo:

Classe CP-35
Rega Jupiter
Sonus faber Concertos

Not bad, ey?

Lex

[Markj]

Lex, a new CBII can cost a lot less if you choose different options. When I got my CB it was less than $5000, and then as budget allowed I added to it. It is now a CBII. 8)

[SiliGoose]

If I had $8k to spend I'd get an MC12 in a heartbeat. (though I'm not sure what that would leave for the divorce attorney h: )

I'm sure even the balanced version can be had for $8 at street prices. If not, a slightly used one ought to be less than that.




-Sili

[Ricky]

If I was spending 8k on my prepro, I'd get an unbalanced MC12 for 6k used, and spend 2k on a nice tube preamp with balanced connections.

[Chip]

Deleted..




Chip Engle


"Concrete ain't a spectator sport"


<a href="http://www.htguide.com/bilder/index.cfm?fuseaction=arkivbilder&userid=0&selected userid=336" target="_blank">My HT

[KS]

While Lex started this thread I think it has to do with me as I mentioned my dilemma elsewhere. I have no desire to spend money for the sake of spending but I don't like being forced to buy twice. I mentioned that I had a Casablanca II for audition that I really liked. It had all "extreme dacs" and most of the options available were installed. To my ears and in my system this is the holy grail. The sound was better than anything I've heard to date. To go along with the extreme dacs was the extreme price, very hard to justify.

Then the other half of the dilemma presents itself. Even if I did dig deep for the Theta I believe that there is some very significant change just around the corner. Unless I'm wrong I think video switching will involve DVI which none of the current pro/pros allow. I do like SACD/DVD-A and I don't believe it will succeed without digital connections, which of course will involve copyright issues. From what other owners have said Theta isn't all that great on updates or timely service. That brings me to my current dilemma:

1. Buy an Outlaw and consider it disposable so I can jump when the time is right.

2. Buy an Anthem or similar unit which I would feel compelled to keep for a couple of years before upgrading.

3. Say to heck with what is coming and buy what I want now and not worry about it.

4. I have tried to purchase wisely and have no regrets on the gear I currently have. When I first got into this hobby I went out and purchased what I thought was the best, Bose AM10. I won't forget that sinking feeling when, with great expectations I hooked it up and turned it on. I don't want to spend thousands and have that feeling again.

I don't mind spending money but I'm not rich and hate being made obsolete in a few months. I know I sound like a whinny child but that is my dilemma. Like I said in another post, since this is the most perplexing issue I have my life is good

I'll watch the thread for more comments. I think I just have to make a decision and then live with it.

Ken

[LarryB]

Sili:

If I had $8k to spend I'd get an MC12 in a heartbeat.

Is that based on your having heard it, reviews, or features?

Larry

[LarryB]

KS:

Is your main interest music or HT? If HT, I suspect the Outlaw or Rotel will suffice; as you astutely pointed out, if they become outdated in a fe years, you can replace them without any major regrets (due to their modest admission price).

On the other hand, if your main interest is music, you should be aware that the sonic properties of most prepros (even the expensive ones) can be easily surpassed by dedicated stereo preamps.

Food for thought...?

Larry

[Lex]

Good point Larry. Even if music is a large consideration, consider a CBII with extreme main dacs, but standard DACs for the other channels. Ok, maybe extreme for the front 3 channels. What would that run, 10?

I am not much one for settling, it seems every time I do, I am disappointed in the end and wind up changing it anyway. Consequently, there hasn't been a lot of settling going on in my HT. I did compromise on a pre-amp, for a mere 600 bucks, and a great value. Beauty of that move is, even when I do upgrade pre-amps, it will still bring 400, or be used elsewhere.

Ken, yeah, I started this for you, just trying to surprise ya.

Lex

[SiliGoose]

Larry,

Is that based on your having heard it, reviews, or features?

Mainly features. I love big deep menus full of stuff I'll never use.
Actually, I played with one for about an hour recently and enjoyed its performance too. It was very good. I typically don't like to make statements like that as I didn't hear it in my system...so it's not fair to compare. But it was really good.

Ken,

Are Theta upgrades really that poor? I'm quite surprised to hear that. Look for a HTG member named Bob, he had a CBII last I heard. He would be a great person to get info from.

Not to toot my own horn for my new purchase but the Anthem will be upgradable to whatever digital connection method is decided upon for DVD-A and/or SACD. However the unit is still fairly new and Anthem has yet to establish their commitment to upgrades. Just a thought.




-Sili

[KS]

Thanks for the thread Lex

I'm sure I'll come to a conclusion soon enough. Your are very correct about "settling". Every time I have ever purchased less than my first choice it doesn't take long for the regrets to set in.

As to use I started out 90%HT but as my system improved I discovered my old passion for music is still alive. Now I would say that my system is 65% music.

I don't think I would be happy with the 950 but it is tempting as a "disposable". If I only used it six months I wouldn't hesitate to move on regardless of loss. The Anthem I would want to keep awhile. I've tried to buy the Anthem on a short "approval" time frame but haven't found a dealer willing to let me take one home. I find it very hard to know if I'll like something without spending time with it in my system.

Knowing myself fairly well I would say odds are high I'll end up with the Theta eventually. I'd just like to see all the other issues resolved first.

Sili, the one question Anthem didn't answer was about the sub outs. I know there are two of them but can they be assigned to run subs in stereo. I have two Aerial SW12s that I run in stereo. I'd like to do this with the pre/pro but it would require assignable outs, I think. I'd appreciate the information if you know the answer.

Ken

[brucek]

Ken,

Have you considered the Bryston SP1.7 at $4295.

I can't imagine you'd find a processor that would produce better sound, given that its analog bypass switches internally to their flagship BP-25 analog preamp and shuts all the digital down.

It has all the features most people want with 7.1 channels, decoding modes, DPL2, Neo6 etc, etc..
It has 192K dacs that presently run at 96K, but are ready for future format changes.
It has balanced and unbalanced outputs and a 20 year warranty.

The fact that it doesn't have video switching is a feature that removes you from being concerned about future changes to video (not that anyone would ever want to run video through their processor ). You can buy an external video switcher if necessary.

I have had the model SP1 for a few years and I still haven't heard any better sound...

brucek

[Lex]

Whoa, two Aerial SW-12s? ;x(

Hmmm, with that high a 2 channel percentage, here is what I suggest. Forget ultra high end pre-pros, and get yourself a fine 2 channel pre-amp, then split the system to a solid amp, like my Proceed HPA-2. Or a pre-amp with Unity Gain feature so the pre-amp and pre-pro can share the same amp. Then get something like the Bryston to handle HT. Let's face it, HT is what is going to change over the course of time. A great 2 channel pre-amp, will still be a great one 5 years from now. What this doesn't do is handle the sub issue. That could be a major stumbling block for the dual purpose setup. I run my music native of subs, with pure bass only from my mains. In my setup, I simply have to flip 2 switches on my Proceed HPA-2 to go from 2 channel to home theater. It's a setup that's worked very well for me.

I don't have to worry about whether my MC-1 has sterling 2 channel, cause I don't use it- But the MC-1 certainly does home theater right. Even if short of DTS-neo, and the other latest bells and whistle sound formats.

Lex

[SiliGoose]

The Anthem has 192khz DACs right now.

Ken,

Aerial's are beautiful speakers. You certainly don't want to make any compromises with speakers like that.

As far as I can tell the Anthem does not run multiple subs in stereo. I read through the manual and tried every setting in the set-up menus and see no evidence of stereo subs. That said, I do get stereo from my "subs" connected to the Anthem. Confusing?

I use the 15" 500w powered drivers in my DefTech BP2000's as my "subs". It puts out more bass than my small room can really take. I don't use the line level sub outputs.

Another pre/pro to consider in the $4k range is the forthcoming Cinepro DTC-10. I believe it will be out in July. Here's a link: http://www.cinepro.com/dtc10.html




-Sili

[Bob]

I have a little info that might be helpful to you regarding the CBll and its price. First you can save a lot by just getting what you need for now and you can always add to it later. The DAC configuration is the biggie. Are you sure you don't find the standard DACs good enough? Then maybe standards in the rear and Superiors in the front. I wouldn't pop for the Extremes unless 1) music is vital to your sanity and more importantly 2) the rest of your system warrants it. I have extreme DACs in the front only and while they are great I could certainly live with the Superior DACs in front and never feel I'm missing something. Or, standard DACs and for $2300 the tube CD player from Granite Audio. For movies the standards are way good enough. Also, do you really need the video switching? I have Circle Surround and that is another one you can live without, the Theta matrixs are better. You do need DD and DTS, of course.
Is the CBll reliable, you ask? I have had my CB since May of 1996! It was one of the first to be upgraded to the CBll, for a mere $2500 which sounds like alot but, is it really? Just go to the website and look at the huge rebuild they did for all the owners of the original CB. Slow to upgrade? Yeah, once in six years while everybody else came out with a new model every year. Did Theta fall behind or did it take 6 years and a multitude of models before everybody else cought up, only to have Theta do another huge leap frog ahead of them. All I know is that mine is now 8 years old, still state of the art, and I have every reason to think that 8 years from now it will still be state of the art. Theta has kept all it's promises to its customers.
Yes, I read many of the posts from people that had problems with their CB or CBll, or at least they claim to own them, we don't really know, do we? If Theta sold thousands of units that are carefree but a half a dozen people post all over the internet about how they received lemons those 6 people can make it sound like Theta really sucks. Hasn't been my experience. I have driven over to their faciltiy many times for either reconfigurations, free (yes, they gave them to me free) minor upgrades, or mechanical repairs to my older DATA lll and have found everybody curtious and most importantly very concerned about making their product the best it can be.
I am sure the Lexicon M12 is a great product but, no offense but, I think if you started with the first Lexicon and upgraded through every model you would have gone through a lot of models by now and would have spent a lot more money than I have invested in my CBll and, apparently it still isn't to great for music.
Lex, I'm not trying to pick on Lexicon. The store I originally bought my Casablanca from also carries Lexicon and now Meridian. So, the Lexicon is the other AV prepro I am most familiar with in regards to observing upgrades over the last 8 years, I could have used Meridian as an example also. If I would have bought the original Merician (although I think it was about a year behind Theta in getting AC3) and bought each successive new model I probably would have spent as much money as a new house by now.

[KS]

What a great forum! All of these differing opinions and not one insult in seventeen posts, I love it!

Thanks for all the input guys.

Brucek, I did look at the Bryston, it's a very nice unit. I live near Canada and was quoted $3300 US out the door. Video switching is not a major thing to me, just a convenience. The unit only has one sub out and the price puts it in a category where I would go to the Theta.

Lex, interesting thought, but I'm not clear as to how I would implement it. How would I put this into the chain and still keep the HT processor connected. I'm currently using the Aerials to handle the crossover duties, I'd prefer to use the processor but not a big deal.

Silli, I didn't think the Anthem would handle the stereo subs. It's not the volume of the base it's the quality. The Aerials are the first subs I've heard that made me think an 80HZ crossover can be a good thing.

Bob, thanks for your input, as I said earlier I don't think its really a questions of if I'll own the Theta just when. It's always good to hear from someone who loves their gear after a long time. As I mentioned above I don't see myself not running my subs for music or movies. After fighting with the setup the blend is seamless and the SW12s just handle bass so much better, I really like them. I didn't spend alot of time with Circle Surround but I liked it on some sources. I would guess you are correct about the standard DACs for the side & rear channels. That would bring the price a little closer.

So I'll consider a processor for HT and preamp for music if I can figure it out. Something else to think about, yikes! Anyway thanks again and it's really nice to see an open friendly atmosphere.

Ken

[Andrew Pratt]

Friendly is what we are all about

I'd highly second the dual processor approach, that is something along the lines of the Rotel 1066 and a great 2 channel pre amp. The fact is there are very few HT processors that do 2 channel right while most decent HT processors can do an excellent job with movie sound tracks. I'd lean towards the Rotel over the Outlaw since the 1066 is firmware upgradeable which should lenghten its lifespan and its value on the used market should be higher given the Rotel name. For 2 channel pre amps you've got lots to choose from but basically you want something with a bypass mode. All this means is that with one press of a button the music pre amp will either take over the volume control or not so if you want to listen to music simply engage the music pre amp and it will control the sources attached to it and when you want movies simply select by pass and it will essentially become invisible bypassing the signal through it onto your amps.

[jstwong]

For an $8k budget, I would like to add Krell's HTS 7.1 to the list. I took a fairly good look at pre/pros when I was shopping and found it to be a very capable performer [and what I ultimately ended up purchasing]. Other pre/pros to consider [that haven't been mentioned yet] would be Tag McLaren's AV32R and EAD's Theatermaster 8000, which both demo'd well to me too.

[Bob Santos]

I took a brief look at the Proceed AVP2 yesterday.
That looks like a good competitor in the under 8K range.
It seems to be chock full of features.
I listened to the origonal AVP back when I bought my Casanova
in 1999. I liked the sound, but it seemed a bit laid back. Supposedly the new version has a bit more forward of a sound.
With the 6 channel input for DVD-A , and SACD my dealer gave me a price of $5800. I will hopefully be able to give it a good listening soon.