Aragon Soundstage vs Lexicon MC1/RogueMagnum66

[Ricky]

I listened to the Aragon Soundstage with Smart Devices Junior 6.1 expanding yesterday for a few hours yesterday. Sound is crystal clear like others said. Subwoofer bass is very good and powerful, but so was the MC1's. DPL1 is kinda of weak, but the Hall mode is good for DSS, and sends stereo signals to the rears to activate the Smart Junior (and therefore the mono rear centers).

2 channel music is good, but quite different from the rogue tube preamp.

More later as I still need to calibrate, tweak, listen some more.

btw, this Soundstage is still 5.1, without the full digital upgrade. Click on my profile to see the rest of my system.

[Kevin_McC]

Ricky,

I'm eager to hear your shootout results. Especially between the Lex and Aragon. In your initial post you say the sound is clear as others have mentioned, but can you detect anything being clearer on the soundstage than the Lex? I think alot of people don't give the Lexicon very much credit when it comes to music, at least from some of the posts I've seen anyway.

I tried a comparison between the Tap-9000es and the Lex albeit I was using analog out of the cd to the Tap and digital out of the cd to the Lex. Once I had both level matched and the Lex tweaked in, I flipped back and forth between the two and the difference was undetectable to me. I'm curious if you find the same results between the Aragon and the Lex.

[Ricky]

Kevin,

I think the Aragon is a little clearer than the MC1. But that is because the Aragon's digital path doesn't go "through" all that heavy duty processing that the Lexicon does to...well, be a Lexicon.

Have you tried the Expansion Port Dacs, which bypasses all dsp boards and bass mgmt, in your MC1? Do it and you'll know what I mean: compare on the fly 2 channel music with the normal Stereo mode (set your mains to large and turn down the sub all the way) vs the 2.0 (no sub) expansion dac. Hook up your RP91 optical into a regular input, and coaxial into the Expansion port.

Watching more movie tracks, the Aragon in circle surround matrixed 6.1 does not have the cohesive, expansive soundfield of 5.1 Logic7. No surprise here, what does?

[JohnT]

Keep listening to different materials and I think the differences will be more and more obvious. It will be a matter of preference as to which you will choose( cant have your cake and eat it to), but imo the lexions logic 7 is a fuller sound in the rear soundfield but at the same time gives up quite a bit in terms of resolution/clearity and dynamics in ht. Your right about the processing of the lexicon being a double edged sword, so to speak

We expect a full report asap..

[Ricky]

ARAGON DAC VS PARASOUND 1600HD DAC
Parasound CD changer is hooked up to both via digital out. Parasound dac is hooked up analog into Aragon. This dac has four Burr-Brown premium 63K dacs. Both sound great and awefully close; I don't think I can tell in a difference in any time of blind test. The guy who sold me the Soundstage also only noticed the most subtle improvement when he bought the highly regarded, 192/24, upsampling Music Fidelity A24 Dac.

ARAGON (Aurum Preamp Inside) VS ROGUE MAGNUM 66
Now, I put the analog outs from the parasound dac into the Rogue (which sits between the prepro and front power amps). Both have big, defined soundstages, with the Aragon probably a little wider and the Rogue a little deeper. Instruments and vocals are equally detailed and joyfully flying all around. The Rogue is lusher, has more bass, and more musical. Is this solely solid state vs tubes? So if I were to run a tube dac into the Aragon would I get the same lush sound? Or is this more a case of Aurum vs Rogue? Or both: tubes and Rogue?

Anyway, the Aragon Soundstage is astonishingly a great preamp/dac, easily the best 2 channel performance I've had in my system from anything with a digital input. If someone doesn't want tubes, I can wholeheartedly recommend the Aragon. I truly believe you are getting the $2k Aurum preamp "inside."

All 2 channel listening is done with RS meter handy, with the beginning of most songs pegged at ~ 72dB.

[JohnT]

Ricky,

Interesting stuff, Its great that you have all the equipment there to do a true a/b, I find these kind of tests most imformative. Anyway getting to your point of the tube dac (I would also like to hear some opinions about this). I did a little test myself putting the homemade bottlehead tube pre ((thanks for buildng it Kevin) in between the art di/o dac and the aragon (using rp-82 as a transport) and was able to switch on the fly between this setup and straight rp-82 digital in of aragon (using aragon dacs). The bottlehead made the vocals more defined/pronounced and guitars etc were more upfront, The straight aragon seems a little more cohesive across the board and surprisingly enough a tad more smooth ( this may be that the aragon dac is a bit smoother then the art dac to begin with)..but the point is the bottlehead definately tubed up the sound. Maybe a good tube dac in between ( or tubed cd player jolida jd-100 etc) with the aragon would be a great match ..

[Kevin_McC]

Ricky and John,

Setting aside accuracy, detail, etc. Which sound do you prefer that of Solid State or Vacuum tubes?

It would seem to me both of you keep pointing back to the benefit of having some sort of tube component in the system to tame it down a bit at least on cd's right?

I know every time I listen to my cheap ol' tube gear it just seems to do something magical to music. It seems to add a deepness to the sound, almost like you can reach into it. Call it distortion, rolling off the highs or lows, whatever it is I find it very appealing.

Ricky,
I'm glad your enjoying the Aragon. Keep up your review I'm curious to see what you think after a few weeks.

John,
Are you going to keep the foreplay in line, maybe a no-gain tube linestage would be better for you? I remember seeing DIY plans some where for one of those.

[Ricky]

More 2 channel comparisons. The Rogue's soundstage is definitely taller and deeper. Seems like vocals are coming from above my center speaker, which is placed on top of my RPTV and not even on. The soundstage appears to extend all the way behind my head. If I had to describe the sound in one word, it'd be SWEET! Then I connected my DSS to the dac and listened to that through the Rogue, so sweet too...with enough spaciousness that I might even prefer the sonics over 2.0 Logic 7 and DPL2?!

Kevin,

If multichannel sacd/dvd-a is not a big deal for you, you should consider a used Rogue 66 magnum with remote control for ~ $777 used and send it to Rogue for the $150 unity gain option. Selling your Sony TAP and some dynaco stuff can pay for this.

[JohnT]

Kevin,

Which do I prefer for music, tubes or ss ?. I would have to say both, I wouldnt want too much of either. It seems like a combination thereof is what Ive been looking for. I like ss amps, The lexicon amps with thier accuracy and slam combined with the aragons transparacy via its analog bypass, make my analog turntable sound fabulous (dont need any tubes here). Now for the inferior digital format cds, ..with their inherent digital harshness I feel like a tube somewhere down the line would be a good thing to smooth it over and make it more musical, be it a tube dac or tubed cd player ( or tube pre )

Right now I can keep the bottlehead in line as I have 2 dacs and 2 digital outs of the rp-82, so I can go back and forth without unhooking anything. I do slightly prefer the straight digital connection more then the bottlehead connection (but this may be because the aragon dac is a little better then the art dac to begin with)...

[Ricky]

My buddy who has heard just about every processor in my system (which is over 10 if you click on my profile) finally came over tonight and listened to the Aragon. He helped me calibrate the Smart Jr (you really need two people to do this)....I had the rear centers way too low before calibration.

He thinks my system has never, ever sounded so good than with the Aragon in matrixed 6.1 and 2 channel. The detail, dynamics, bass, channel separation were awesome, and he used the word "sweet" alot. He says it's better than the MC1 for movies, and just a touch behind my Rogue tube preamp for music.

[Ricky]

For those of you with 5.1 setups and/or using the Sony TAP for your analog inputs, you should strongly consider a Soundstage. IMO, the Aragon will be superior to both the TAP and just about every 5.1 only capable prepro. And you don't need to upgrade it. If you have a 6.1/7.1 setup, you can get a 6.1 expander, or upgrade the Soundstage.

The Nov 2002 Sound & Vision mag did a comparison between the Anthem AVM20, the Aragon Stage One, and the Sunfire Theater Grand III. Here are some Lab results.

AC3 Noise Level on 16bit Signal (the larger the negative the better):
Anthem - 75.2 dB
Sunfire - 75.4 dB
Aragon - 75.6 dB (best, but all very good numbers)

Multichannel Analog Inputs - Distortion (1 kHz at 200mV)
Anthem 0.05%
Sunfire 0.02%
Aragon 0.003% (one tenth the distortion level!!!!)

Multichannel Analog Inputs Noise Level (A-wtd re 200mV)
Anthem -84.4 dB
Sunfire -87.2 dB
Aragon -88.3 dB (again the best)

The only differences between the upgraded Soundstage and new Stage One are:
- Stage One has Ultra2 processing and the new Pronto Neo remote
- Soundstage has true balanced outs and large 19inch chassis (both are responsible for the 12 lb difference).
Otherwise, Aragon tech verified that both have the exact same analog section (based on the Aurum preamp) and the power supplies.

A new Stage One goes for $2900-3200; I can get a little bit better deal so I think I'm leaning that way. Anyone wanna buy an MC1, Aragon Soundstage, or Smart Devices Jr?

[JohnT]

Ricky,

So whats YOUR opinion about the lex/soundtage shootout in HT after racalibrating the smart adapter ? ..

I take it Rich liked the soundstage alot....Resolution/dynamics of soundstage to my ears is easily evident but I didnt have the lex at the same time as the aragon as you know. Did youll a/b them or does he already know your system and just listened to the aragon this time ? lastly why does it take two people to calibrate smart adapter ?

[Ricky]

I agree with Rich on the Aragon's sonics. Since I have an ideal 7 speaker room layout, if I had to choose between the Soundstage/SmartJr combo and the MC1, it'd be a tough choice. However, the new Stage One with THX Ultra2 processing looks like my ticket at this point.

You need two people because one person needs to manually turn on the pink noise and calibrate on the back of the Smart Jr while the other person sits in the sweetspot with the RS meter.

[Ricky]

Chuck,

Let's continue our discussion here instead of the DT Oldtimers thread.

I don't believe any phantom/dsp mode can substitute/match real rear speakers playing actual sound. The Smart Jr which is actually producing a discrete 6.1 channel (my two rear centers are playing mono) cannot match Logic7's 7.1 rears. How do you know the Sony Theater 5.1 mode mimicks multiple rear speakers when you don't have any or 7.1 processing to compare/assess?

If those cd players running through the TAP sounds no better than the prepro, then your 2 channel has more upside than you think. It's truly scary that the Aragon as a dac is even competing with my Rogue/parasound dac combo (each piece retails over 1500). As for 5.1, the Aragon only mimicks what's on the DVD and to sweet perfection with glorious layers in the soundstage, with no listening fatigue at/after reference levels

I understand waiting for next gen's prepro technology as one, they are not out yet, and two, that would be very expensive and a major investment. But this is bout an even dollar swap (sell sony combo, cambridge cd and buy soundstage).

[Chuck G]

We did kind of hi-jack that thread didn't we. :LOL:

I am pretty sure I would have NO trouble selling the P9000es. Since it has been discontinued it has become an even more sought out item. Problem is I would HAVE to sell both items as a set and get close to $1200. I am not sure that is doable.

I am not really concerned about the digital connections on any prepro (for switching) just yet. I was more concerned about any new HDTV set having those for future compatability.

You are right about not having a 7.1 setup to compare the Virtual Theater with. However, how do you explain the huge difference between VT and regular DD/DTS with my 5.1 setup? It is not even close. Also, have you heard virtual theater b with the newer Sony software on your setup?

I may post on the EZ board to see if anyone may be interested in my combo at $1200. Just to get a feel if this would even be doable.

Tell me some of the key features of the soundstage. What kind of bass management does it have and does it have 1 or more 5.1 analog input bypass's? BM isn't as big an issue for me anymore since getting full ranges speakers all around (except the center which I highpass to the Atlantic Tech 262pbm sub). Does it route LFE to the mains if sub=no (like the E9000es does)? That would be important.




Chuck

[Rich B]

Just wanted to share some thoughts on Ricky's new prepro. I have known Ricky for about five years now and I've heard almost (if not all) of his prepros:

* Denon AC3 decoder (the stand alone piece, basic but it worked)
* Nakamichi AV10 receiver (we both liked its great ergonomics)
* Nakamichi prepro ? (not sure if he ever bought it - but we talked about it ALOT)
* Angstrom combo (One of his best sounding pieces, but operation and ergonomics was very clunky - old school piece)
* HK Signature (nice, Rick got friendly with chief designer / engineer for this piece and got software upgrade - I think)
* Citation 7.0 (I know he had at least one, maybe 2)
* Citation 5.0 (shortlived in Rick's system, deservedly so)
* Lexicon MC1 (now THAT's surround sound)
* Onkyo 989 receiver (sounded great and had wonderful flexibility with settings and ergonomics - my second favorite of the prepros he's owned)
* Lexicon DC1 (nice, but after hearing MC1, it was a step down)
* Lexicon MC1 (he missed the better L7 processing)
* Aragon Soundstage (current one)

Quick system background. Although the rest of Ricky's system was not identical throughout all the above prepros, it was always very similar, to allow for meaningful cmparisons. He's always owned either NHT 2.9's or 3.3's as his mains, and amps have mainly been Parasound or Citation.

The Soundstage was CLEARLY superior to the rest of his prepros to me almost immediately. Things that were very apparent and different than the rest. Detail! And I don't mean bright. Even when we cranked it up, it remained smooth and non fatiguing.

We almost always demo the same damned old boring scenes every time we do the Ricky gear auditions - and I know this is cliche - but I heard the scenes in a way like never before. The movie sound had LAYERS. Every little detail was unique, yet no paricular sound drowned out any of the others. This is my biggest praise of the unit, I hope I make myself clear, it's kinda hard to put into words.

Dynamic. The sound had great slam and presence from highs to mids and to lows. Rick's bass never sounded better, it seemed more well defined.

Rick did not talk up the piece to me at all - we never do that so that we don't influence one another's opinions. I even came in leaning a little towards not being impressed with his new purchase as I've never really read rave reviews on Aragon prepros before - I know they made great amps and that's all.

On music it sounds great as well. Ricky has a nice tube 2 channel prepro + high end Parasound Dac. On solos vocal music I could detect the difference, the Parasound + Rogue were superior (wider & deeper soundtage + slightly smoother sound), but on more busy music I couldn't really tell them apart.

It's not perfect. It's a five channel piece and Ricky's room is set up for 7 channel. He gotta hold of a Smart 6.1 device and ran the rears in matrixed mono. It helped but not enough to my liking, I felt the rear soundstage was very lacking.

Lexicon L7. I personally love DSP's, those who remember me, I am still a big Yammy fan. The MC1 has wonderful surround processing and really good quality sound. By contrast, the Soundstage has SUPERB overall quality sound and no DSP's. I told Ricky to seriously consider the new Aragon Stage One (I think he may get one). Hopefully, it wiill retain the same quality sound (maybe even better - is that possible?) and it will add quality DSP's in the form of DPL2, DTS Neo6 and THX Ultra2, this will give him good 7 speaker sound again.

Why does it sound so great to me? I'd like to think that it's NOT phsycoacoustics, especially since I wasn't even familiar with the piece. One thing that we came up is its design: all bass managment and the volume control is performed in the analog domain. That, and Ricky described that Aragon's famous 2 channel preamp is te heart of this prepro. Thiis is our guess as to why it sounds so great and unlike ANY piece he has onwed or that I have listened to before.

Nice piece. Very very nice.
Special thanks to John Fairchild for his recommendation.

Rich B.

[JohnT]

Rich,

Long time since Ive spoke to you, hope lifes treating you well. Have you got your HT together yet ?..if so whats your final setup ?

Your sentiments are simalar to what Im hearing on the aragon. Crystal clear but yet not bright, Dynamic as hell and great channel seperation/decoding. As far as music goes I think it would be very hard to beat with anything digital that is.

[awtryau89]

Well, I guess I'll have to chime in here. I purchased a Soundstage about the same time Rick and John did. I was immediately underwhelmed but let me explain why. First of all I had used a DC-1 for over a year them switched to a HK-8000. In all my switching of components I had revamped everything. When I got the Soundstage I did not even have a full complement of speakers and amps. I listened to the Soundstage in 2 channel only with subs. While listening I immediately told Rick and John it was definitely as accurate and clean a sound I have ever had in my system. As a 2 channel preamp I was totally satisfied. The most impressive thing was the bass. My subs have never sounded so good and I had to recalibrate them to a much lower level because the impact was so much greater. Well, I finally got all my amps and a center channel and I am blown away. I would echo everything everyone has stated above. The unit is so dynamic and clean. It has such good detail in movies and music. Its steering is so good yet so subtle compared to Logic 7. This is better sometimes but not as good others. I could be competely satisfied with this unit if it had DPLII. My quandry is do I want to spend $800 to have it upgraded for basically DPLII. Time will tell as I have mine up for sale and I am going to let fate decide. Anyway, if I do have it upgraded there is no question in my mind that this would be a world class preamp processor and one of the all-time most underrated pieces I have run across.




Eric Awtry
War Eagle

[awtryau89]

I had to add something to reemphasize how much better the bass is on this unit than anything I have had previously. I am currently without a sub. I sold my 2 earthquakes and I am waiting on a new servo. My mains go down to 42hz, center down to 38hz and side and rears go down to 63hz. I watched "One Hour Photo", "Sweet Home Alabama" and "The Road to Perdition" this weekend I was actually questioning whether or not I needed a sub. The fact that this thought could even enter my mind is almost blasphemy. I thought I might be satisfied and could put the money to better use. I quickly realized that I could not do this but the impact and dynamics are so good that I am "almost" satisfied. This is one heck of a processor. Well, I have talked myself out of selling it now. I think I will raise my price on Audiogon to ward off any potential buyers and just do the upgrade.




Eric Awtry
War Eagle

[JohnT]

Eric,

thats exactly what I was thinking. Im without the svs on the lfe channel untill I get my 312 amp back. I have my 2.9s and vs2.4s(with rear 10 nht subs) set to large...I watched road to perdition, one hour photo and knock around guys..The bass was so good that I thought to myself , "dam this is just about enough bass alone" and I gurantee my friends/kids/wife didnt even know I didnt have the svs hooked up,,,The bass was rockin . Of course I would never part with my svs but it goes to show how good the bass is coming through the aragon..

[Ricky]

I put the MC1 back. Logic7 certainly has the bigger rear and front soundstage. And sounds like glass breaking is more searing. In my ideal 7 speaker layout, I'd probably pick the MC1 over the 5.1 Soundstage. But I think I am going with the new 7.1 Aragon Stage One.

Rich,

That's a good memory about my gear and great writeup. Of course, for the exact Ricky history, you can just click on my profile. Glad to show you a good time. We probably listened to dvds and dts demos for over an hour with many peaks over 100dB...and no listener fatigue.

Chuck,

Still concerned about lack of bass with the subwoofer set to none

[Rich B]

John:

"Long time since Ive spoke to you, hope lifes treating you well. "
Thanks. All is well here, hope things are good for you too - sounds like you're having fun with your current set up.

"Have you got your HT together yet ?"
2 years in our first home and it's STILL not set up. But the basement construction project is FINALLY done - ask Ricky.

"..if so whats your final setup ?"
It's funny, I've had the gear the whole time - how crazy is that? NHT's all around (including subs), Yammy as a prepro, and Citaion amps.

"I have my 2.9s and vs2.4s(with rear 10 nht subs) set to large . . ."
DAMN John!
8O 8O 8O
10 SUBS?!!!

Rich B.

[Kevin_McC]

Rich,
That was a great write-up.

Ricky,
Will you keep the MC-1 and compare it to the new Aragon?

Eric,
What were you going to replace the Aragon with?

John,
You must of really liked the effects of the two 10" subs in the rear to add 8 more?

[awtryau89]

Kevin,
Check out my second post. I think I am going to keep the Aragon. Our local affiliate for ABC HDTV has finally gotten their 5.1 DD up and running correctly and I watched Alias tonight in HD 5.1DD and it was absolutely stunning. I keep getting more and more impressed by the Aragon every time I sit down and listen. I was looking to replace it with a Meridian but they are either way too expensive or just not everything I am looking for right now. I would probably still sell the Aragon but it would have to be the right price. I guess I will just get the upgrade on the Aragon and be satisfied for a couple of years.




Eric Awtry
War Eagle

[JohnT]

I guess I should have stated what Ive been telling my wife all these years, Its 10 "INCH" .................................subs that is :LOL:

[JohnT]

Rich,

Since you like dsps, have you thought about getting an mc-1 ? "the king of dsp"...Logic 7 still hadnt been topped after all these years and you sound like you have the perfect room for it

[Rich B]

Thanks for the compliments guys. I thought about a Lex quite a few times, Ricky has neary twisted off both my arms for not doing so already.

In order for me to drop Yammy receivers (as a prepro) to another brand I have to be really wowed, and it needs to accomodate all my gear as well. The MC1 is great in the rear soundtage, but I actually prefer Yammy's "enhanced" front soundstage via front effects speakers. I know, I know I just lost ALL credibility on this board by saying that. Maybe I'm brainwashed, but I really like Yammy DSP's - and I've heard Ricky's Lex prepros numerous times. Also, I have 9-10 pieces of A/V gear that need to be connected to my prerpo, the Lex falls short.

The first piece to wow me to the point of serious Yammy replacement consideration is the Aragon. The stinkin Stage One has only 7 A/V inputs. There are workarounds, such as doubling up inputs (analog + digital sources per input) but I have to keep my wifey in mind, she will use the system as much as I do, and I am a firm beliver in a streamlined easy-to-use system (to me, it's almost as important as the quality of its performance). But I honestly see an Aragon in my future - maybe not right away, but that's OK.

Rich B.

[Ricky]

Ricky Saga Update.

Sale pending on MC1. Parasound dac is sold.

I should get the new Stage One soon. I am hoping that Klipsch did not alter the analog section and cheapen the parts materially....which they seem to have done with some of the new Aragon amp models. In the S&V measurements I posted earlier, the Stage One did post fantasic numbers via the 7.1 multichannel inputs.

The Soundstage still sounds amazing. The Smart Jr does expand and improve the rear soundfield with 6.1. Gee, do I even need the Stage One or upgraded Soundstage

[David Meek]

I actually prefer Yammy's "enhanced" front soundstage via front effects speakers. I know, I know I just lost ALL credibility on this board by saying that.

Not with me Rich. My RX-V1 and I are very happy together.




David - HTGuide flunky
Our "Theater"
Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

[Ricky]

This is a very informative white paper on the Soundstage:

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/ avhardware/aragon_whitepaper.pdf

This is a review on the Soundstage and 8008x5 amp:

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/aragon_soundstage1.php

[Chuck G]

Ricky, does the Soundstage use 24/48 dacs? I would assume the Stage One uses at least 24/96 maybe even 24/192. How big of a difference would the dacs make?

Also the TAP states Harmonic Distortion less than .003%. h: It states signal to noise ratio as 115db (20khz LPF A) at 1.3 v input level.




Chuck

[Bruce]

Ricky,

Can you email me the PDF file on the Soundstage you provided a link to above?

The link you provided to that PDF file is no longer available on the website. I searched all over that website to no avail.




Bruce
____________________________________________

[Ricky]

Chuck,

I think my Parasound dac1600 with four premium burr-brown 63K dacs ("only" 20bit, but also found in the EAD Signature) is better than the upsampling 192/24 dac in the fantastic Onkyo 989; I think implementation and analog stage matters more than just the specs on the chip/dac. And I cannot tell a difference between the Parasound and the Aragon dac on the fly, level matched. My friends and I are all astonished at the level of detail my system has with the Soundstage. And the bass is ferocious!

Bruce,

I didn't save the PDF file, maybe you can email audioholics and ask them to "reinstate" the file?