New separates from Denon

[Nolan B]

You keep referring to Denon in a general sense. Are you talking about the brand as a whole or the AVP-A1HDCI? I'm just looking for clarification on that point because that has an impact on what is being discussed.

Eric

Unfortunately for Denon they can not be sperate. In a general sence Denon is a mid maket brand. Specifially they are trying to penatrate a high end market. The high end market is "used to" cretain brands. That high end market is aware of Denon as being lower end then what they are used to. Heck look at me....I am not even in the high end with my Rotel set-up and still I think of Denon of lesser quality because of my own experience. As I progress and build my "dream system" I can safely say that I wouldnt even consider Denon, not now, and unless they put out some solid products (with better form) for a few years straight.

Again I go back to my KIA/Porsche analogy...it doesnt matter who has been making cars longer, or who has more cars sold. It matters to me that Porsche has proven to develop world class high performance cars and has won 100s of important races based on thier technology. There is value in that.

[dmccombs]

Nice to have you with us here on this thread.

Well, a few Denon AVP owners had to jump in. Its amazing the amount of crap that is being posted, by people whom have never heard the unit.

If someone demos the AVP in a decent setup with decent supportinggear, that's fine. Post your findings be it positive, negative, or mixed.

But Dougie, Vancouver, and some of the others are bashing the unit because it is a Denon? :rofl: I especially loved the comment that said Rotel was better than Denon (in this AVP thread). Come on...

It's hard to take comments like this seriously if you have heard the AVP, but I didn't want people considering this unit to be swayed by the numerous uninformed comments. Some owners have to chime in, with thier informed opinions.

I've owned other nice prepros so I think I have a decent basis for comparison. Some of the other AVP owners came from other high end Prepros, and these opinions should be seriosly considered.

I am in no way a Denon fanboy, or even a AVP fanboy. I do plan to give the Classe SSP-800 a listen if the HDMI implementation is solid. The Denon is in the same sound quality league though as the other Proceed, Krell, and Halcro units I owned, and everything works.

Many High End companies have had problems implementing 96/24 via HDMI. Getting this right takes a lot of R&D, which many high end companies don't have. I would not assume that Krell and Classe will nail this on the first round. It is not a gimme. Other good mid to high end companies have had problems with this on their first attempt.

Darrell

[GregLett]

Well, a few Denon AVP owners had to jump in. Its amazing the amount of crap that is being posted, by people whom have never heard the unit.

If someone demos the AVP in a decent setup with decent supportinggear, that's fine. Post your findings be it positive, negative, or mixed.

But Dougie and some of the others are bashing the unit because it is a Denon? :rofl: I especially loved the comment that said Rotel was better than Denon (in this AVP thread). Come on...

It's hard to take comments like this seriously if you have heard the AVP, but I didn't want people considering this unit to be swayed by the numerous uninformed comments. Some owners have to chime in.

I've owned other nice prepros so I think I have a decent basis for comparison.

I am in no way a Denon fanboy, or even a AVP fanboy. I do plan to give the Classe SSP-800 a listen if the HDMI implementation is solid. The Denon is in the same sound quality league though as the other Proceed, Krell, and Halcro units I owned, and everything works.

Many High End companies have had problems implementing 96/24 via HDMI. Getting this right takes a lot of R&D, which many high end companies don't have. I would not assume that Krell and Classe will nail this on the first round. It is not a gimme. Other good mid to high end companies have had problems with this on their first attempt.

Darrell

Yea. This is one of the saddest threads I've followed. I can't believe how folks are behaving. We are supposed to be audiophiles. We want the best gear we can afford. We like to listen to different products. Wen a new product arrives on the market, I expect to tune in here and read the opinions of my fellow hobbyist (who have heard it) about X product. How the features work, SQ.etc.

[wettou]

Unfortunately for Denon they can not be separate. In a general since Denon is a mid market brand. Specifically they are trying to penetrate a high end market. The high end market is "used to" certain brands. That high end market is aware of Denon as being lower end then what they are used to. Heck look at me....I am not even in the high end with my Rotel set-up and still I think of Denon of lesser quality because of my own experience. As I progress and build my "dream system" I can safely say that I wouldn't even consider Denon, not now, and unless they put out some solid products (with better form) for a few years straight.

Again I go back to my KIA/Porsche analogy...it doesn't matter who has been making cars longer, or who has more cars sold. It matters to me that Porsche has proven to develop world class high performance cars and has won 100s of important races based on their technology. There is value in that.

I think the car analogy is not a good one in the sense that with cars you have races to show how well they compare.

With electronics it is very subjective, yes you can compare list of features and specs produced by computers and oscilloscope. But at the end of the day it is a question of which pre/pro, speaker, amp that sound better to you. Unless manufacturer are willing to go through quantitative market research, ie with more than a (1000 listeners) that would compare their products in a blinded fashion as to which piece of electronic product sound better than the other then it becomes an N of one your opinion vs mine, and is very highly subjective.

Statistics would have the answer, unfortunately I don't see any of these firms doing that kind of blinded test as it would be too risky if you are at the bottom!!

[RebelMan]

Just because Denon's engineers opted to use PCM1796 instead of PCM1792 does not necessarily deem the DAC implementation in the Denon AVP as sonically inferior. Denon could have used dual PCM1792's per channel, but instead opted to use 4 PCM1796's per channel. Now there may be a very good reason for Denon to implement this configuration. How does four PCM1796 DAC's per channel stack up to using two 1792 DAC's per channel? Maybe the Denon engineers saw a sonic benefit by doing it the way they did.

Denon's implementation may be well executed but the choice of its parts are inferior. The PCM1792's are very expensive (over 3x the cost) compared to the PCM1796. I am certain it was a cost driven initiative they used in their selection process. It stands to reason that if Denon was using a dual-differential configuration that they are using 4 mono's or 2 stereo DACs. The use of the PCM1796s makes this an more affordable option than the same topology using PCM1792s. In either case the same number of DAC's would have to be used... 4 mono or 2 stereo.

DAC's are not the only thing that require attention. Isolation, power supply, and output buffer designs and implementation all pay key roles to producing great sound.

[H.T.C]

Doesn't denon have a long and old history (atleast the early 60s) dating back the 1920s when wax phonograph records and players were produced.?

[dmccombs]

You need to be careful about how you qualify yourself. In one post you state audio quality is more important, but the above you imply price is a more important factor and you are willing to compromise for a cost point.

No, I didn't. although I discussed price, I made it clear that I would buy based on SQ. I think I stated that clearly by saying "I would buy the one that sounds best". Sorry if it seemed I meant otherwise.

You also need to compare retail prices, not what your dealer will give you on one product vs. another. You can not guarranty what anyones dealer will offer its' customers on any product.

In the first paragraph, I compared MSRP assuming no discounts. At current prices the Denon is $1000 cheaper. I then went on to say that Denon usually offers a 10% discount.

Discounts could further increase the price difference. I agree, that discounts vary from dealer to dealer.

Darrell

[RebelMan]

Well, a few Denon AVP owners had to jump in. Its amazing the amount of crap that is being posted, by people whom have never heard the unit.

It's hard to take comments like this seriously if you have heard the AVP, but I didn't want people considering this unit to be swayed by the numerous uninformed comments. Some owners have to chime in, with thier informed opinions.

I am in no way a Denon fanboy, or even a AVP fanboy. I do plan to give the Classe SSP-800 a listen if the HDMI implementation is solid.

Darrell, you seem to have an open mind about the topic of this thread but I have to know why you would purchase the AVP-A1HD prior to listening to the price comparable SSP-800 nearing release? Also, if the AVP-A1HD did not come with HDMI connections what would the outcome have been for you? Careful how you answer that. :W

[H.T.C]

[QUOTE=GregLett]Did Denon take someones lunch money??
Man!!![/QUOTE

Lol

[dmccombs]

Please qualify that statement. Just because it has HDMI doesn't mean it is better.

I'll argue that the classe SSP-600 using 7.1 analog bypass has the potential to be as good as or better than the Denon over HDMI. Why? Because its an opinion. HDMI is not required to acheive the new codecs.

You seem to have a bad case of selective reading today. Did you miss what I was responding to? I had the original post in quotes.

The person I replied to was specifically reffering to the Classe SSP-800, which is not out yet.

So yes, The Classe he mentioned doesn't sound as good as the Denon (only because you can't buy one to listen to yet). :B

I wasn't making a general statement that the AVP sounds better than all Classe gear. I was pointing out that the poster (and others) keep referring to the sound quality of a unit that no one has heard yet.

I do own 4 Classe amps. I am not your enemy. ;x(

Darrell

[H.T.C]

Greg,

You are so silly. How are you going to play Monster Trucks with your audio gear, unless you take it out of the rack at least once a month, and bash into the rest of your flimsier made gear? :rofl:

Last month, I pitted a Prepro against my Dish box. I'm going to miss that Dish box...

Last week, I pitted that heavy Prepro against one of my monoblock amps. Lesson Learned: Monoblock Amps RULE!!!

So, next time you are out shopping for gear, bash it against some of the other gear, and see how it holds up. Get your priorities straight man... Screw sound quality and features. :twisted:

Darrell

That is funny, atleast there is humor in this thread and is a break from the drama. :B

[dmccombs]

Darrell, you seem to have an open mind about the topic of this thread but I have to know why you would purchase the AVP-A1HD prior to listening to the price comparable SSP-800 nearing release? Also, if the AVP-A1HD did not come with HDMI connections what would the outcome have been for you? Careful how you answer that. :W

Rebelman,

I will throw caution to the wind and answer your questions as honestly as possible. I have never claimed to make perfect purchases. I buy and sell gear as necessary to improve my system.

I had Halcro prepro before. They had huge problems getting the HDMI 96/24 thing right. I went through 3 units and the HDMI stuff wouldn't work on any of them. I spent nearly a year waiting for the 96/24HDMI, and swapping unit. I felt like the unofficial Halcro tester. Halcro does want thier customers to be happy though, and I was able to get out of the Halcro. This was a few months ago.

So, I was prepro-less. I knew the Classe was on the way, but I had seen other vendors say that HDMi was on the way, and some took a year or more to become a reality. I was in no mood to wait for the Classe. Wehn I talked to the Classe dealer here, he said it would be June or July before I had a SSP-800 in my hands. I needed something sooner.

So, out of the HDMI capable prepros, I demoed the Denon. The sound quality was comparable to the Halcro, Krell, and proceed. EVERYTHING worked. So I kept it. I'll keep it until I find something comparable in price that sounds better (and works, HDMI and all).

I will probably demo both the Krell S-1000 Upgraded, and I will demo the Classe SSP-800 when they are ready.


OK, now to answer the trickier part of your question. What would I have done if the Denon didn't have the 96/24 HDMI. Answer: I wouldn't have bought it. I probably would have ended up with a used Lexicon mc-12b hd eq hdmi.

I am having a great time watching Bluray and HD-DVD movies, and the HD audio is terrific. I also like DVD-A and SACD. I think the Denon with a 94/24 track sounds amazing. Reading indicates that the Lex would be amazing as well.

I haven't been able to audition a Classe prepro, but I have heard the Krell. I would take the Denon 96/24 audio over the Krell Dolby, DTS, CD audio.

So, thats how I ended up with the Denon. I'm happy with the choice for now. The sound quality is very good, and I am not a perpetual beta tester any more. Halcro burnt me out on "being first" for a while. :f>

If the Classe comes out with a working HDMI, and sounds as good as we all think it will, I think I can sell the Denon. They are in short supply right now. I think it was a low risk choice.

Darrell

[RebelMan]

I will throw caution to the wind and answer your questions as honestly as possible.

A very honest response, thanks! :T

[hifiguymi]

Doesn't denon have a long and old history (atleast the early 60s) dating back the 1920s when wax phonograph records and players were produced.?

Denon was Japan's first record company and they were formed in 1910 (I'm pretty sure that year is correct. It's been a long time since they have brought that up in a training.). The biggest accomplishment for Denon was when they developed LPCM in the late 60's. They built the first digital recorders in 1972 (again I think that is the correct year). They were the only company that did not have to pay Philips and Sony royalties for putting the CD logo on their players. Philips, and later Sony, licensed PCM from Denon for the CD format.

Eric

[sikoniko]

You seem to have a bad case of selective reading today. Did you miss what I was responding to? I had the original post in quotes.

The person I replied to was specifically reffering to the Classe SSP-800, which is not out yet.

So yes, The Classe he mentioned doesn't sound as good as the Denon (only because you can't buy one to listen to yet). :B

I wasn't making a general statement that the AVP sounds better than all Classe gear. I was pointing out that the poster (and others) keep referring to the sound quality of a unit that no one has heard yet.

I do own 4 Classe amps. I am not your enemy. ;x(

Darrell

are you kidding? this thread has been very entertaining! figured I'd have to harass someone... you ended up being the lucky one.

we shouldn't take ourselves seriously when talking about a pre pro. this is our hobby, right? where we retreat to relax?

I'm sittng in minute maid park watching the astros and I don't even like baseball. just something to do in a city I've never been to.

[Nolan B]

Well, a few Denon AVP owners had to jump in. Its amazing the amount of crap that is being posted, by people whom have never heard the unit.

I dont have to hear the unit to know that I would prefer to invest into a brand which has spent years developing and proving their success in a high end market. Denon did not. Now if I heard the Denon and I thought it sounded as good as a Classe or Halcro would I consider it? still now because as I said before Denon looks cheap.

But Dougie, Vancouver, and some of the others are bashing the unit because it is a Denon? :rofl:

I never once bashed Denon (well maybe about the looks of their stuff) in fact I complimented them about being very successful and arguably the most succesful in th market they go after.

I especially loved the comment that said Rotel was better than Denon (in this AVP thread). Come on...

That comment was from me, and I stan behind it 100%. Why may I ask do you find that so crazy? I have A/B at least 5 Denon models (2 different ones in my own home) against Rotel and every time Rotel sounded better to me. So why would it be crazy for me to post I think Rotel sounds better then Denon?


One other quick question becuase I honestly dont know the answer so dont take this as sarcasm. What problems are you refering to in regards to 96/24 HDMI? I have been listening to 96/24 DVD As all weekend through HDMI and every BD and HD DVD sounds like gold through my 1069.

[dmccombs]

One other quick question becuase I honestly dont know the answer so dont take this as sarcasm. What problems are you refering to in regards to 96/24 HDMI? I have been listening to 96/24 DVD As all weekend through HDMI and every BD and HD DVD sounds like gold through my 1069.

Some vendors have had problems implementing the hi-res audio over HDMI. Some vendors have problems syncing with various HDMI devices. Sometimes they can sync up, but have problems when passing 96/24hz.

Halcro and NAD had problems. Firmware fixes took care of most of the issues, but it took time to work out the kinks.

Other vendors have had issues too. It sounds like Rotel got it right. Denon also had it down pretty good even two years ago with their x806 series.

Darrell

[GregLett]

That comment was from me, and I stan behind it 100%. Why may I ask do you find that so crazy? I have A/B at least 5 Denon models (2 different ones in my own home) against Rotel and every time Rotel sounded better to me. So why would it be crazy for me to post I think Rotel sounds better then Denon?

That is all that matters. You demoed them and you like Rotel better.
I started with Rotel stuff and it's very good. I'm a tube nut now

[impala454]

I appreciate the feedback from those that own this unit. It sounds like this thing is about as good as it gets right now if you're looking for pre-pro that will take a lot of HDMI inputs as well as decode HD audio.

I'm sittng in minute maid park watching the astros and I don't even like baseball. just something to do in a city I've never been to.

You have got to be kidding me. I have season tickets and was at that game tonight too! :rofl:

SMALL WORLD

[dmccombs]

I appreciate the feedback from those that own this unit. It sounds like this thing is about as good as it gets right now if you're looking for pre-pro that will take a lot of HDMI inputs as well as decode HD audio.

The Denon and the Lex are worth auditioning if you don't mind passing HD audio as 96/25bit audio.

The Denon seems the best choice now, if you need the prepro to decode the HD audio.

The Denon is relatively new, but I haven't heard any Denon AVP owner regret the purchase, nor have I seen any used units on ebay or Audiogon. If you are buying today, I think it the best option.

If you get the Denon, it sounds like you should get it this month, as the price is supposedly going up $500.

If you don't mind waiting a month or two, then Classe and Krell should have units out that deal with 96/24bit pcm, and those units should sound nice. I don't know if they will decode HD audio right away though. That info should be easy to look up though.

Darrell

[Z Man]

I appreciate the feedback from those that own this unit. It sounds like this thing is about as good as it gets right now if you're looking for pre-pro that will take a lot of HDMI inputs as well as decode HD audio.

I'm glad that we were able to give some insight as to what real world use with the AVP is like.

The Denon AVP is indeed a great choice if you want a lot of flexibility, many HDMI inputs, TrueHD and DTS-HD MA decoding, and excellent sound quality.

IMO Denon has a winner with these new separates.



Seth

[H.T.C]

are you kidding? this thread has been very entertaining! figured I'd have to harass someone... you ended up being the lucky one.

we shouldn't take ourselves seriously when talking about a pre pro. this is our hobby, right? where we retreat to relax?

I'm sittng in minute maid park watching the astros and I don't even like baseball. just something to do in a city I've never been to.

You,must have been extremely bored sitting in the park to go look up a thread on a laptop.

Baseball has tendency to drag on (3.5) hour games especially on tv with commercials and its very slow entertainment and atleast you did not get agitated enough to go out in the field somewhere or perhaps behind the mound and dig in the dirt to place a tee shirt or program guide which could curse the team as what happend to the yankees.

[sikoniko]

You,must have been extremely bored sitting in the park to go look up a thread on a laptop.

Baseball has tendency to drag on (3.5) hour games especially on tv with commercials and its very slow entertainment and atleast you did not get agitated enough to go out in the field somewhere or perhaps behind the mound and dig in the dirt to place a tee shirt or program guide which could curse the team as what happend to the yankees.

my boss didn't like me reading the threads...

I just can't get into baseball. I did enjoy the bbq spuds.

ill be in town through friday. too bad we didn't link up before the game.

[impala454]

it was a great game... if you're a cubs fan

[David Meek]

it was a great game... if you're a cubs fan

This Administrator is a long-time Astros fan (notice the hat). Be careful, as I may drop an A1HDCI on you from orbit. P.S. We won last night. :B

FWIW, I'd like to complement everyone on the overall civility of this thread.

Now, back on topic....

[impala454]

Oh I'm a long time Astros fan myself, see where I have season tix above . How bout that Pence slam last night!

ok yeah so about that Denon...

[Z Man]

Professional review of the AVP-A1HDCI.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/processors/denon-avp-a1hdci