New separates from Denon

[impala454]

anyone seen these suckers yet? really really pricey but wow, seems like a heck of a leap in Denon's "flagship" offerings:

AVP-A1HDCI Pre-pro:

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3922.asp

12 channel A/V Pre-amplifier
THX® Ultra2 certified
New DDSC-HD circuitry
Dolby® TrueHD, DD+ and dts-HD™ Master Audio decoding
HDMI v1.3a compatible
Analog Devices SHARC processors
Burr-Brown 24-Bit/192kHz DACs on all 12 channels
Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g, Windows Vista and DLNA certified
Ethernet and RS-232C ports
RDS, HD Radio and XM Radio ready
2-way remote capability with optional RC-7000CI and RC-7001RCI remote system

POA-A1HDCI amp

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3921.asp

150 watts x 10 channels 8 ohms
300 watts x 10 channels 4 ohms
Full bridging capability
XLR and RCA inputs for all 10 channels
10 channel mono-block design
8 power transformers
3 assignable VU meters
THX® Ultra2 certified
RS-232C control port






Seems like a heck of a setup... if only I had a spare $14,000 :lol:
Interesting to see Denon take such a jump up in "status".

[Hdale85]

Great specs and what not...but personally that is way to much money to drop on Denon if you ask me.

[audioqueso]

I didn't have much respect for Denon until I heard the PMA-S1 integrated amp from the Denon Premier line. Honestly, it was amazingly clean and transparent. I think if they put the same amount of effort in this pre/pro, it can lead somewhere... but that price is too high.

[georgev]

Great specs and what not...but personally that is way to much money to drop on Denon if you ask me.

Why? Just curious.

[hifiguymi]

Just an FYI. Each the preamp and power amp will be going up $500.00US on July 1st. The retails will be $7500.00US each.

Eric

[GregLett]

Great specs and what not...but personally that is way to much money to drop on Denon if you ask me.

I second the question?


"Why? Just curious."

[impala454]

So I saw the Marantz thread too, I wonder if high end separates are something these companies are seeing in a more widespread marketing plan for the future?

[Hdale85]

I don't know me personally I probably will never spend that much on an amp and preamp. Denon has never really been super musical compared to things like Classe, Mcintosh and what not and this is definitely way up there in those price ranges or even above it. The only advantage I see to going with the Denon is the HDMI 1.3 and what not which I don't feel is even really needed that much. These are just my views of course I know a couple people even on these forums already own these But these are aimed at HT and I feel that HT performance has a limit eventually and you could easily spend several thousand less and probably have just as good of HT performance.

[GregLett]

Ok. I think the question was asked because you wrote " That's way too much to spend on Denon" instead of too much to spend on a setup. I would agree it's too much to for me spend on a HT setup, regardless of who makes it. I don't think any of the names you mentioned are that much better than Denon as the price would indicate. But if folks are willing to spend that much why not get into the game

[impala454]

I like the sheer amount of options the Denon pre-pro offers. I for one actually have 5 HDMI sources at the moment and am having to go component just to get everything hooked up. Whether it's worth $7,500 is really just more about budget than some quantifiable value. I'm sure there are some on here who could drop that much once a week, vs some who's car is worth less lol.

by the way, never heard of "DDSC-HD". is this some new audio encoding?

[hifiguymi]

DDSC-HD is the latest Denon surround processing circuit. Denon has used the DDSC (which stands for Dynamic Discrete Surround Circuit) moniker since the AVR-2500 back in early - mid 90's (Pro-Logic only days). It's been updated various times and the HD signifies that it does the new lossless audio codecs.

Eric

[Hdale85]

Well I know you can get Classe gear for less. Me personally I plan on getting a Pre/Pro from Emotiva simply for the value factor. Lots of nice specs at a very affordable price. My 2 channel stuff is all home built though just the way I like it

[wettou]

So let us know how is the denon musically will it compare to Classé SSP-800 same prices!

[Hdale85]

Yeah that was kind of my point. Denon is very HT oriented and it sure is a big leap to try and step into the high price market like this. Granted they have had expensive receivers before.

[GregLett]

OK. So who will be the first to check them out????
I vote for Dougie085

[Hdale85]

HAH! I don't have 14k in my entire setup right now Don't even have that much into furniture and stuff in my house. And I don't own a car. So yeah not going to happen :B

[GregLett]

lol :d :d

[Hdale85]

Someone in the B&W thread has this setup actually with some 800 series I believe.

[Hdale85]

Here you go 802D's



I believe its the same preamp/amp? Just in silver.

[impala454]

yeah looks like it, dang the pre-pro + amp is bigger than the kid! :lol:

and I love the minimalist rack :P

[Hdale85]

What rack? :B

I could see my self MAYBE very large maybe purchasing the pre/pro some day. But there are amps that are equally as good I feel for much less money. Either something I build or maybe something like ATI or what not. I'm not a Rotel fan though so thats definitely not an option

[impala454]

What rack? :B

Exactly!

[Z Man]

anyone seen these suckers yet? really really pricey but wow, seems like a heck of a leap in Denon's "flagship" offerings:

Seems like a heck of a setup... if only I had a spare $14,000 :lol:
Interesting to see Denon take such a jump up in "status".

While I don't own the matching amp, I do have the AVP preamp. I had been looking for the "ultimate" solution for all my AV needs, and this new preamp from Denon delivers all the goodies I wanted and then some. And on top of that it sounds excellent with both HT and 2 channel. I am very happy with my choice.

Some seem to think that $7k is way too much for a pre/pro offering from Denon. But if you look at it from a high end perspective, for everything it has, and it being a fully balanced design with quad DAC's in dual differential mode on all 12 channels. Then $7k is a downright bargain. There is no pre/pro currently available that has everything that the Denon AVP-A1HDCI has.

The Denon AVP is selling even better than Denon predicted, and as such they are having a tough time keeping up with demand. Right now I believe that the next batch of AVP's isn't due to hit the U.S. until June sometime. And many who owned Krell, Theta, Lexicon, Halcro, Anthem, etc. have replaced them with the Denon AVP and are very happy. And you know that people who owned those other high end brands weren't going to just settle for anything. It would have to at the very minimum, match the sound quality of what they were using. Well in some instances the sound quality of the AVP has not only matched, but even surpassed the sonics. Now that says a lot.

Denon has a winner with their AVP and POA.


Seth

[Chris D]

Cool. I really like how they have a whopping 6 HDMI inputs. Good to see that manufacturers are finally getting smart and realizing that they need more than 2 or 3.

[impala454]

Yeah that is very nice to have so many options for inputs. Seth how does the wireless connection work? Can you just share music files on a PC and the Denon sees them?

[Hdale85]

Well Sony has a receiver that has 6. The new top of the line Emotiva pre/pro is going to have like 8 I believe. The UMC1 has 4 and the middle one will have 6. I think this is right I just woke up though.

[Z Man]

Yeah that is very nice to have so many options for inputs. Seth how does the wireless connection work? Can you just share music files on a PC and the Denon sees them?

The wireless connection works great! Right now I have mine connected via Ethernet using a CAT 6a cable, but the wireless connection works just as good. Yes you can stream music from a PC or a NAS (Network Attached Server).

The Denon AVP will support AAC, MP3, flac, WAV, WMA, and WMA Lossless via streaming. I personally use WAV, flac, and WMA Lossless. What is really cool is that any CD with HDCD encoding that has been ripped to WAV, flac, or WMA Lossless, retains that HDCD endode when streamed. So once it is received by the Denon AVP, it's automatically decoded. So the benefits of HDCD encoded CD's can be enjoyed while streaming.

Another cool thing is that if using WMA, WMA Lossless, or WAV through Windows Media Player 11, all album info and cover art is automatically tagged. So when you have your TV on, not only can you see all album info like album, artist, song, and track time, but cover art is also displayed. All info (except cover art) is also shown on the AVP's display window as well.

The sound quality of flac, WMA Lossless, and WAV is superb!


Seth

[Hdale85]

Uhhh I believe they support FLAC as well. At least their lower end Receivers do so I don't know why the top end AVP wouldn't.

[Alloroc]

That's quite a beast.

I've a real interest in this as I'm planning a purchase of the pre AVP later this year...perhaps. My local dealer has the full setup arriving in a month or so for demo so looking forward to that. I wonder was their any McIntosh input into this combo?

[John Holmes]

Yeah that was kind of my point. Denon is very HT oriented and it sure is a big leap to try and step into the high price market like this. Granted they have had expensive receivers before.

Denon and Marantz have done the seperates thing before. Good products that were well received by enthusiast in a/v. They just got away from them for awhile. I guess they see a market need to enter again.

Also just to put it out there, both Denon and Marantz were very well regarded for their 2 ch sound and equipment for decades now. Much of the 70's, 80's and 90's units ( CD players, turntables, amps) are still being collected and used today.

I see no reason a person should not look at the new units, if they can afford them. I OTOH, don't make that kind of money. :B

[Martyn]

If you're building a million dollar house (which isn't all that much these days) with a dedicated theatre, then I guess $14k is small change, but for the room in the photograph with the hardwood floor...

[Nolan B]

I second the question?


"Why? Just curious."

il give my opinion on this.

I belive in brand integrity. A brand like Classe or Mac has spent time building its brand to represent a certian quality and when you invest in that you are have a history of good products and proven performance from that brand which provides you with a piece of mind. There is value in that. Denon can charge 14k for the above, but just not yet in my opinion. Denon needs to build their brand.

I wouldnt look at Denon over a brand like Classe or Mac, anymore then I would look at KIA if they came out with a super car instead of buying a Porsche.

Nope. Denon needs to earn thier place in that market segment in my opinion.


Also...just personally..in a certain league I want my stuff to look as good as it sounds. IMO those two denon pieces look like ass.

[Mig17]

exellent and very deep understanding :T

il give my opinion on this.

I belive in brand integrity. A brand like Classe or Mac has spent time building its brand to represent a certian quality and when you invest in that you are have a history of good products and proven performance from that brand which provides you with a piece of mind. There is value in that. Denon can charge 14k for the above, but just not yet in my opinion. Denon needs to build their brand.

I wouldnt look at Denon over a brand like Classe or Mac, anymore then I would look at KIA if they came out with a super car instead of buying a Porsche.

Nope. Denon needs to earn thier place in that market segment in my opinion.


Also...just personally..in a certain league I want my stuff to look as good as it sounds. IMO those two denon pieces look like ass.

[GregLett]

il give my opinion on this.

I belive in brand integrity. A brand like Classe or Mac has spent time building its brand to represent a certian quality and when you invest in that you are have a history of good products and proven performance from that brand which provides you with a piece of mind. There is value in that. Denon can charge 14k for the above, but just not yet in my opinion. Denon needs to build their brand.

I wouldnt look at Denon over a brand like Classe or Mac, anymore then I would look at KIA if they came out with a super car instead of buying a Porsche.

Nope. Denon needs to earn their place in that market segment in my opinion.


Also...just personally..in a certain league I want my stuff to look as good as it sounds. IMO those two denon pieces look like ass.

I agree on the building of the brand. I don't thing Denon is a new kid on the block. They have been around for a while and I've heard goods things about them.

Classe has very nice looking piece of gear, but It is not the best for me in sq at all. In the looks department Classe wins for me. Also remember Porsche was once a new kid on the block.

Many times great advertising gets placed above great sound.

[Glen B]

Also...just personally..in a certain league I want my stuff to look as good as it sounds. IMO those two denon pieces look like ass.

Looking at the rear panels of the two pieces I would expect to see better quality connectors and materials for the asking price, not the stamped RCA jacks and thin sheet metal construction you find in typical mid-fi products. They appear no different from Denon's other mass-market offerings.

[Hdale85]

Umm Porsche has almost always built performance cars. Same with Classe they have always been known for high SQ. Denon is known for HT and spending 14k on separates is something you do for 2 channel if you ask me because HT SQ is relatively easy to reproduce with cheaper components. This is what I was getting at before Classe Mac Mark Levinson and so on are brands I'd expect to pay that sort of price for and I would know I'm getting an amazing piece of equipment. Denon I'd be real hesitant. Not saying that this AVP is not awesome I'm sure it is....It's just they kind of made it unattainable to most of the Denon fans if you ask me.

I completely agree with the build quality as well. When you spend 5-12 grand on a Classe Preamp it's a nice heavy aluminum chassis you really feel like your holding an extremely high end piece of gear. With this Denon stuff other then the weight it really doesn't differ from their other stuff. And I just can't agree that there is 7k dollars worth of electronics inside that chassis that there was no budget left over for a real nice high end chassis.

[wettou]

This is interesting come to think of it I had the opportunity to see the Denon AVP1 unfortunately unplugged and I have to say it looked really cheap in real life!! I could not agree more that when you buy a Classé or a Krell or Mark Levinson you get a really high quality chassis and parts.

Classé new Delta serie is a a marvel of design and built like a tank they also use high quality connectors rather than cheap junk. In addition it is built in Canada where quality control is better than China read the latest article in Absolute Sound.

A few years back I got the Integra Research and at least they tried to make it look a lot more solid in addition the product was built in Japan and the US!

If Denon want to get back in the high end then why not do like Marantz Reference their sister company and build quality.

[Alaric]

Much of the 70's, 80's and 90's units ( CD players, turntables, amps) are still being collected and used today.

The 80s , and a goodly portion of the 90s , stuff from Marantz was crap. I will never own a piece of electronic gear with a 'Phillips' tag because of that. D & M Holdings put some major effort/$ into fixing that. I noticed Marantz dropped the PM7200 and the SA8260 from their mid-range line right before the rumors of a HK buyout started. Hmmm....(Ok , I own a PM7200 and a SA8260. They are good pieces-until you factor in price. Then , they are great pieces.
Having demonstrated my bias , I have to say , I would never pay that kind of money for Denon. If you want to spend $14K for a processor and 7 channel amp , check Audiogon. For that cash , you'll find stuff that will blow big , smokin' holes in Denon. My $.02

[Z Man]

Looking at the rear panels of the two pieces I would expect to see better quality connectors and materials for the asking price, not the stamped RCA jacks and thin sheet metal construction you find in typical mid-fi products. They appear no different from Denon's other mass-market offerings.

Believe me the connectors are of very high quality, I have plugged and un-plugged quite a few RCA type cables, XLR cables etc. and the connectors are solid. Cheaper connectors move a bit and in some cases come off with extremely tight fitting cables. The XLR connectors used are all Neutrik, I owned a Integra Research RDC-7 and that one was also Neutrik. If the connectors were of cheap quality I would know as I have used and owned quite a bit of high end AV gear over the past 17 years.

And one of the main reasons Denon opted to use the same chassis and face plate as their top end AVR-5308 receiver, is to help keep cost down. I know many of you think that $7k for a Denon product is ridiculous. But in reality what do you think goes into making a product that is a fully balanced design with quad DAC's in dual differential fashion. Has two large toroidal transformers, and 7 separate power supplies. I mean do you actually think that even a large company like Denon could realistically be able to offer this product at an under $4K price point?

I mean C'mon, all the upcoming fully balanced pre/pro's I have seen are no less than $8k (Classe' SSP-800), and they go up in price from there. But one expects a much much lower priced offering from Denon because why, it's a Denon. I'm sorry but I go by build quality, features, and ultimately sound quality as my criteria for judging a product worthy. I hold very high standards for sound quality and build quality for what I want as the centerpiece of my system. And if I didn't honestly feel that the Denon AVP was good enough, it would not have stayed in my AV rack.


Here's a open shot of the AVP.



A guy who bought one actually was bold enough to remove all the covers and took some pix of what's under the hood.












If Denon had opted to have the AVP in a whole different chassis with a completely re-designed sculpted face plate, I can guarantee that it would have retailed for way more than $7k. Think more along the lines of $9k+. So sure the AVP is not as sleek and sexy looking as the Classe' Delta line. But for me I value performance first above the looks of an AV product. The SSP-800 is without a doubt a very well engineered and amazing sounding pre/pro. But can you imagine how much it would have cost if they had offered everything the AVP has in it? It wouldn't surprise me if they would have been asking $25k or more.

As one poster mentioned earlier in this thread, Denon at one time was well known for its high quality high end offerings. A lot of their stuff was considered reference by the audio community. But the company's focus shifted 11 years ago, as home theater was (and still is) very very popular. So in order to reach a much wider audience, Denon decided to drop their 2 channel high end lines and instead go full guns with home theater driven receivers. So now after many many years of Denon making cutting edge receivers, they earned a reputation for being a "receiver" company. And while there is nothing wrong with that, they did however, left their high end roots pretty much forgotten in the past. And now that they decided to jump back into the high end separates game again, I think they're having a tough time shaking off that "Denon receiver" image. Here's some of their cost no object 2 channel separates from the mid 90's.



Actually all this stuff was for sale, but was in the "if you have to ask?" category. The amps were $40,000 pair, CD transport $8000, and DAC $7000.

I know that Denon is having an uphill fight convincing many doubters out there that these two new products are worthy of being considered as "high end". But I wouldn't dismiss them so fast until any of you have actually listened to them. I mean if you go just by pedigree of brand, how many of you have listened to a well known "supposed" high end brand, and left a bit underwhelmed by what you heard? I know I have. So is a "high end name" always indicative of being of the best sound quality? All I'm saying is let's be fair before making judgments.


Seth

[Alaric]

I know that Denon is having an uphill fight convincing many doubters out there that these two new products are worthy of being considered as "high end". But I wouldn't dismiss them so fast until any of you have actually listened to them. I mean if you go just by pedigree of brand, how many of you have listened to a well known "supposed" high end brand, and left a bit underwhelmed by what you heard? I know I have. So is a "high end name" always indicative of being of the best sound quality? All I'm saying is let's be fair before making judgments.

Very true. Denon is capable of making very good equipment. I'm not a huge fan of Classe (let the flaming begin!) and I'm not a fan of McIntosh. It's personal preference , though , not a knock on the quality of the sound or gear. My biggest obstacle comes from being poor-if I have to wager $14K on a piece of gear , I'm probably going to aim higher on the 'name-brand' scale than Denon.
ZMan , that Denon gear in your post looks sweeeeet! Too bad that that level of expenditure puts you in Esoteric country!

[Z Man]

Very true. Denon is capable of making very good equipment. I'm not a huge fan of Classe (let the flaming begin!) and I'm not a fan of McIntosh. It's personal preference , though , not a knock on the quality of the sound or gear. My biggest obstacle comes from being poor-if I have to wager $14K on a piece of gear , I'm probably going to aim higher on the 'name-brand' scale than Denon.
ZMan , that Denon gear in your post looks sweeeeet! Too bad that that level of expenditure puts you in Esoteric country!

I totally respect your reply, thanks. Yes that ultra high end gear from Denon was and still is considered by many as some of the best audio gear ever made. Each amp is stable to 1 ohm pumping out 1400 watts of high current output. I do know that each monoblock amp weighs in at a back breaking 175 lbs! All the pieces in the Denon S1 series were Stereophile Class A rated.

Re Marantz back in the early 90's, yes I remember their offerings back then. I also was not too impressed with the products they were making at that time. Of course they have radically changed all that with their very high end line of 2 channel separates. But I think that their new pre/pro and amp is geared more toward competing with the likes of the Integra DTC 9.8. And as such has a much lower price than the Denon AVP/POA separates. Also of note is that the Marantz separates are made in China whereas the Denon separates are made in Japan.

This new Denon AVP pre/pro is a full on design that as you can see from the under the hood shots is a very well built product.

[Alaric]

Yup. It looks like Marantz is once again the sacrificial lamb. It's a shame they only had a few years of really good mid offerings in the last decade or so. The specs on that Denon amp are HUGE!
My stuff isn't "high-end" by any means , but I got great value per dollar spent. My speakers make up for a lot of cash not spent on amps! To be honest , I've gone back to vinyl hard enough to start ignoring CDs again. If I hit the lottery , Denon's TOTL gear from the 90s is on my short list. It would be worth owning just for the looks if money were no object.

[Glen B]

I know that Denon is having an uphill fight convincing many doubters out there that these two new products are worthy of being considered as "high end". But I wouldn't dismiss them so fast until any of you have actually listened to them. I mean if you go just by pedigree of brand, how many of you have listened to a well known "supposed" high end brand, and left a bit underwhelmed by what you heard? I know I have. So is a "high end name" always indicative of being of the best sound quality? All I'm saying is let's be fair before making judgments.
Seth

I am not averse to products from Denon or Marantz as long as they are very well built and deliver on performance. I was only commenting on my observation of the new Denon separates. Maybe I'm just too nitpicky. I cherish my Denon turntable that I've owned for the past 20 years and last year I opted replace my aging Classé legacy CD player with a unit from the Marantz Reference Series instead of sticking with the Classé nameplate.

[John Holmes]

I like many want a well built product. However, build quality does not always equate performance. There are products that have been "over built" that were plagued with issues. Likewise, there are cheap products that wow you because, they have lasted longer than you may have wanted them to, and yet, still perform well. Real world application should be the only real judge of a piece of gear.

IMO, cost is a relative issue. It isn't for me to say what something is worth to another. When spending money on a hobby, it's the enjoyment one gets in return that matters. Sound reproduction is just that. Be it movies or music. I just don't buy into your equipment knowing it's playing a movie vs. audio music, voices, etc, and as such, you get a different response. Now how it is encoded OTOH...

[GregLett]

I like many want a well built product. However, build quality does not always equate performance. There are products that have been "over built" that were plagued with issues. Likewise, there are cheap products that wow you because, they have lasted longer than you may have wanted them to, and yet, still perform well. Real world application should be the only real judge of a piece of gear.
IOTOH...

:agree: I keep reading about how something is "built like a tank" unless I'm going to war with the thing a "tank like' build is not important good build and a good sound is.