New separates from Denon

[btf1980]

il give my opinion on this.

I belive in brand integrity. A brand like Classe or Mac has spent time building its brand to represent a certian quality and when you invest in that you are have a history of good products and proven performance from that brand which provides you with a piece of mind. There is value in that. Denon can charge 14k for the above, but just not yet in my opinion. Denon needs to build their brand.

I wouldnt look at Denon over a brand like Classe or Mac, anymore then I would look at KIA if they came out with a super car instead of buying a Porsche.

Nope. Denon needs to earn thier place in that market segment in my opinion.


Also...just personally..in a certain league I want my stuff to look as good as it sounds. IMO those two denon pieces look like ass.

The irony of it all is that Denon has been around far longer than both Classe and Mac and have vested just as much, if not more than anyone else in high end audio. The brand is well built, especially in Japan. They have many high end products that are priced accordingly to the crowd who thinks if it doesn't cost as much as an entry level toyota, then it's no good. It just happens to be that in the Americas, Denon is more famous for their HT receivers, thus they are harshly judged by name brand snobs. Make no mistake about it, if you slapped a Classe logo on the AVP, it would win numerous product of the year awards before the product got out of the gate. Sometimes I wonder if people listen to the equipment itself, or buy because of "prestige". I've heard the denon seperates, and it is the product to beat for HT purposes imo. Quite frankly, Classe, Mac, Levinson, Proceed etc need to get with the program.

As for brand loyalty, well products are the conduit for my entertainment. I'm not married to it. If something better comes around, it would be a foolish to turn a blind eye to better products. At the very least, audition them with an open mind. I did that, and said adios to my Rotel-RSP 1069. I'm sure spending over 2 grand for something with a broken scaler that needed a bypass made you all fuzzy inside since it said "Rotel" on the outside. :B

[impala454]

I wouldnt look at Denon over a brand like Classe or Mac, anymore then I would look at KIA if they came out with a super car instead of buying a Porsche.

I think KIA vs Porsche is a little over-exaggeration don't you?

Denon needs to earn thier place in that market segment in my opinion.

Maybe that's exactly what they're trying to do?

[Z Man]

I think KIA vs Porsche is a little over-exaggeration don't you?


Maybe that's exactly what they're trying to do?

Agreed, Denon is by no means a KIA. Definitely not a fair comparison.

They are indeed trying to build up a reputation they once had for making high quality high end separates that not only are very well built but also ones that sound good.

I believe that they are definitely on the right track. There are many people I have talked to that have come from Lexicon MC12B, Krell S-1000, Anthem D2, Halcro SSP100, Theta CBIII, and even Meridian 861 V4, who now own and are most impressed with the Denon AVP.


Seth

[Z Man]

The irony of it all is that Denon has been around far longer than both Classe and Mac and have vested just as much, if not more than anyone else in high end audio. The brand is well built, especially in Japan. They have many high end products that are priced accordingly to the crowd who thinks if it doesn't cost as much as an entry level toyota, then it's no good. It just happens to be that in the Americas, Denon is more famous for their HT receivers, thus they are harshly judged by name brand snobs. Make no mistake about it, if you slapped a Classe logo on the AVP, it would win numerous product of the year awards before the product got out of the gate. Sometimes I wonder if people listen to the equipment itself, or buy because of "prestige". I've heard the denon seperates, and it is the product to beat for HT purposes imo. Quite frankly, Classe, Mac, Levinson, Proceed etc need to get with the program.

As for brand loyalty, well products are the conduit for my entertainment. I'm not married to it. If something better comes around, it would be a foolish to turn a blind eye to better products. At the very least, audition them with an open mind. I did that, and said adios to my Rotel-RSP 1069. I'm sure spending over 2 grand for something with a broken scaler that needed a bypass made you all fuzzy inside since it said "Rotel" on the outside. :B

Very well said. And you are right, if this Denon AVP had a Classe' moniker on its faceplate I can just hear all the ooh's and ahh's it would be getting.

[GregLett]

Very well said. And you are right, if this Denon AVP had a Classe' moniker on its faceplate I can just hear all the ooh's and ahh's it would be getting.

:agree: :agree: :agree: too many by with their eyes not ears.

[wettou]

May be Denon has been around for a while but if you look how the AVP is build it is the same as their receivers and for $7K I would expect better built quality!!

In addition Denon's are no longer build in Japan! At least not the one I have seen.

[John Holmes]

:agree: :agree: :agree: too many by with their eyes not ears.

I'll second uh..third that. :T

[John Holmes]

May be Denon has been around for a while but if you look how the AVP is build it is the same as their receivers and for $7K I would expect better built quality!!

In addition Denon's are no longer build in Japan! At least not the one I have seen.

I thought a big part of getting seperates, was to have the processor and amp in different units. Thus, allowing each it's own power supply, yada,yada... The fact that it isn't much different from it's receiver counterpart should not matter. And may be a good thing. Especially if the receivers have been known for 'good build' and sound. B&K never try to hide that this is the case. It seemed to do ok for them.

[Z Man]

May be Denon has been around for a while but if you look how the AVP is build it is the same as their receivers and for $7K I would expect better built quality!!

In addition Denon's are no longer build in Japan! At least not the one I have seen.

The same as their receivers? Exactly in what way?

And FYI the Denon AVP and POA are 100% built in Japan, as are all of their flagship products. The products in their mid to low end lines are more than likely built elsewhere, but I know for a fact that the AVP and POA are built in Japan. And just so you can see it, and not just take my word for it, take a look at the photos that the OP shared. At the bottom right of each unit it clearly says "Made In Japan".








Seth

[wettou]

The same as their receivers? Exactly in what way? Seth

Denon outer skin is very, very thin and cheap, cheap metal case, rather than 1/3 inch sculpted aluminum! See what I mean. Yes Denon has all the bells and whishle and then some a lot of I would nver use but any way!

My needs are simple best audio quality, and with Blu ray no one needs video scalers! For regular DVD Oppo does an amazing job and has a great scaller.

[impala454]

While that is a nice looking piece, I also like the look of the Denon. And I own a Denon 2307CI and have to say the bezel most definitely does not feel "thin" or "cheap". Hell, the sheet metal on my truck is not 1/3" thick.

And while I posted this just to have discussion of these new products and don't want it to become a "X Product vs Y Product" thread, I couldn't seriously consider buying any pre-pro that doesn't including scaling or Dolby TrueHD/DTS-MA decoding.

[wettou]

I also don't care about brand I just want best quality for the money with the features I need, not the most amount of logo on the face plate!!

I have used an Integra Research RDC7 (Onkyo) for the past 6 years and have been very happy with it. It is now out dated as it does not support HDMi

So I am looking for the next high quality pre/pro that will last an other 6-7 years.

[Z Man]

While that is a nice looking piece, I also like the look of the Denon. And I own a Denon 2307CI and have to say the bezel most definitely does not feel "thin" or "cheap". Hell, the sheet metal on my truck is not 1/3" thick.

And while I posted this just to have discussion of these new products and don't want it to become a "X Product vs Y Product" thread, I couldn't seriously consider buying any pre-pro that doesn't including scaling or Dolby TrueHD/DTS-MA decoding.

Like you, I also like the look of the Denon AVP. And you're right, it is by no means thin and cheap. I have seen numerous receivers and even some pre/pro's that have thin covers. But when I got my AVP and actually started to examine it closely, I was very impressed with the thickness of the cover, and especially the thick aluminum face plate. Even the control knobs for volume and source select are all aluminum. And the display window is glass and not plastic. The AVP is not a cheaply made product, and is a pre/pro that is hand built. This has been verified by Denon.

And I couldn't agree more, this is a thread for the discussion of these new Denon separates. Let's "please" not let it become a battle zone thread for this X product is way better than your Denon. Please let's show some respect for Impala 454's reason for starting this thread.

But I agree Wettou, there is no denying that the Classe' SSP-800 is one sexy looking pre/pro.



Seth

[cug]

Denon outer skin is very, very thin and cheap, cheap metal case, rather than 1/3 inch sculpted aluminum! See what I mean. Yes Denon has all the bells and whishle and then some a lot of I would nver use but any way!

Oh yeah. For a piece of 20 dollar metal you're going to pay $2000 as soon as it is attached to audio gear.

Sorry, but your price fetishism goes sometimes a bit over the top. If you want to pay that much money for a thick front, get it from your local metal supplier ... he'd be happy to get the 2000 bucks for a simple piece of aluminum.

[wettou]

Oh yeah. For a piece of 20 dollar metal you're going to pay $2000 as soon as it is attached to audio gear.

No need to be so aggressive

Sorry, but your price fetishism goes sometimes a bit over the top. If you want to pay that much money for a thick front, get it from your local metal supplier ... he'd be happy to get the 2000 bucks for a simple piece of aluminum.

Just for your information Classé SSP-800 is $8K where as the Denon is $7.5K so we are talking $500 difference.

A I said I have currently an Integra Research, (Onkyo)

[cug]

Just for your information Classé SSP-800 is $8K where as the Denon is $7.5K so we are talking $500 difference.

A I said I have currently an Integra Research, (Onkyo)

Did you compare specs? This discussion reminds me of the times when in the "high end audio" was three times the price of mass production with a third of the features and all the "mass production stuff" blew away the high end components.

Okay, prices are more or less on par with these two - now add the power amps and see where that leaves you. And have all the same features.

[wettou]

Did you compare specs? This discussion reminds me of the times when in the "high end audio" was three times the price of mass production with a third of the features and all the "mass production stuff" blew away the high end components. Okay, prices are more or less on par with these two - now add the power amps and see where that leaves you. And have all the same features.

Yes and here you are

The SSP-800 is a ten-channel preamp/processor, offering both balanced and single-ended connections for all channels. Audio Digital Signal Processing (DSP) is handled by a Texas Instruments-based platform, which operates in 64-bit 2 double precision. It uses floating point arithmetic for all audio signal calculations to ensure the most accurate results possible.
All bass management filters, level adjustments and parametric filters also benefit from the added precision.

To ensure the SSP-800 retains its value and competitive edge, the Classé Design Team has designed the DSP onto a replaceable module to accommodate a planned future upgrade.

1 Superior audio performance is achieved by combining powerful DSP with
balanced topologies, advanced component parts and meticulous circuit layout. A dedicated linear power supply using a low-noise toroidal transformer powers the analog audio circuits. Digital and control circuits are powered by their own dual-output, low-noise, high-current switching supply. High quality digital-to-analog converters and output stage components are configured to ensure exceptional dynamic range and resolution. Audio circuits are isolated from video and control circuits by optocouplers and low voltage differential signal (LVDS) pathways. Digital and analog circuits and grounds are isolated from each other among and within circuit boards.

Throughout the SSP-800 there are examples of HD technology executed at the highest quality level. It is the combination of advanced technology and genuine quality sets the SSP-800 apart. And while technology and quality give the SSP-800 its intrinsic value, we measure its true worth first on the test bench and then in the sound room.

Music First
1 The new HD audio codecs may be decoded inside many new Blu-ray (or HD DVD) players and output lossless, bit-for-bit on HDMI as multichannel PCM. A new dual DSP module is being designed specifically to decode these new codecs inside the SSP-800. When available, it will be offered free of charge to original owners of the SSP-800.
3 Music listening remains the most reliable method of judging sound quality. In fact, no surround processor can accurately reproduce movie sound if it fails to reproduce music properly. At Classé, our first priority is developing components that perform exceptionally well with music. We then turn our attention to processor decoding capabilities and developing features that enhance flexibility and in-room performance.

With musical performance as its benchmark, the SSP-800 was conceived as a high-performance multichannel preamplifier. For two-channel listening both balanced and single-ended analog sources may bypass all analog-to-digital, DSP and digital-to-analog stages. Alternatively, the full range of processing capabilities including bass management and parametric equalization is available for both analog and digital sources.

The SSP-800 changes the game by doing what no preamp/processor has done before: it performs as well with music as a dedicated stereo DAC and
preamplifier. The secret of its breathtaking performance lies not in some new parts or special features, although it has many. What sets the SSP-800 apart is the depth of experience never before brought to bear on a multichannel design.

Analog to Digital
Modern source components are increasingly optimized for use with digital
interconnections and the SSP-800 capitalizes on this trend. Older surround
processors are typically equipped with a vast array of analog inputs. These have been minimized in the SSP-800 and largely replaced by digital connectors.

Four HDMI 1.3a (High Definition Multimedia Interface) inputs for audio/video sources are supplemented by standard SPDIF (coax) and EIAJ (optical) digital inputs for audio.

HDMI is the connection standard adopted for high definition A/V sources. An HDMI cable may carry 1080p HD video signals and uncompressed multichannel 4 LPCM digital audio as well as the latest HD audio codecs (Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio) and certain control signals. Several versions of HDMI have been introduced, each surpassing the other in bandwidth and support for additional features. While the hardware used to transmit and receive on HDMI may be labeled by its version number (the SSP-800 uses version 1.3a for all HDMI inputs and outputs), there will be differences among products’ actual capabilities.

The SSP-800 uses HDMI 1.3a primarily to support the component’s long life in an evolving market. As new sources emerge, the SSP-800 offers the potential for transferring more information into and through its circuitry. For example, the video signal path supports 36-bit Deep Color video, even though Blu-ray Discs are only 24-bit video sources. In general, the bandwidth of components and circuitry in the SSP-800 is sufficient to accommodate all current and proposed next-generation sources.

Touchscreen Control and More
Classé Delta series components were the first A/V products to offer touchscreen control. Since then, touchscreen control has become an integral benefit for other consumer electronics products. Touchscreen control is more reliable and infinitely more flexible than the older style controls using push-buttons with fixed-segment displays.

The SSP-800 is custom installation friendly. It is equipped with bi-directional RS- 232 control and status, rear panel IR, front panel IR transmitter/receiver, CAN BUS and DC triggers.

Video sources of all HDTV resolutions including 1080p are available for viewing on the touchscreen. On Screen Display (OSD) messages can be overlaid on all video signals. Older analog video sources are converted to digital and made available on the HDMI outputs. For displays lacking digital video connections, a component video output is available for analog video sources.

Real World Applications
In addition to quality and technology, the SSP-800 has flexibility built in. Its ten channel design creates the possibility of configuring two channels for additional subwoofers or as mirrors of the front left and right channels for bi-amplifying the front left and right speakers. Alternatively, these two channels may be devoted to delivering audio to a separate room or system, with source selection shared with the main theater and either fixed or variable output.

Five-band parametric equalization is provided for each of the ten channels to help tune the system to its environment. Classé has elected to offer the system EQ as a manual feature. While several automated systems are available on the market, the complexity of room acoustics guarantees that no automatic system can achieve consistent, optimum results. Our experience is that the best results are obtained by combining measurements with human judgment. The filters used in the EQ are rendered accurately by our processor, which uses floating point arithmetic operating in 64-bit double-precision.

The wealth of knowledge applied to the SSP-800 design and the inspiration for its execution do not come from a textbook—they come from the passion and dedication of those who have spent their lives in the pursuit of higher
performance. Classé offers the SSP-800—the definitive preamp/processor—for those who share our singular passion for performance.

CLASSÉ SSP-800
specs:
CODECS: Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Pro Logic IIx, dts, dts-ES Matrix, dts-ES Discrete, dts Neo:6 2CH, dts 96kHz/24-Bit, MCH LPCM 96kHz/24-Bit, Dual-DSP Board (Upgrade): Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD High Resolution and DTS-HD Master Audio. Plus other custom modes similar to those available in the current SSPs.
- Optional +10 dB boost added to each MCH LPCM.
- Trim compensation features available for early DTS music recordings.
- Multiple configurations to level settings and manage bass engaged manually, by input or stream type.

All of the current sample rates including 7.1 channels at 192kHz/24-Bit are supported. However, the DAC systems perform best with the lowest THD+N when implemented as 96kHz input. Therefore, the SSP-800 will sample rate convert the signals to 96kHz before going to the DACs.

Room Correction: Manual PEQ, 5 Bands Per Channel

The MDS DAE DSP upgrade board is capable of Audyssey and Trinnov automated room equalization but support for either feature has been suppressed at present given the complexities involved in proper room correction which cannot be trivialized with the DSP alone.

DSP Board: Momentum Data Systems MDS DAE-7 (7101) Module
- Texas Instruments Aureus DA610 Chip

Dual-DSP Board (Upgrade): Momentum Data Systems MDS DAE-7D (7103) Module
- Dual Texas Instruments Aureus DA710 Chips
- FREE, Field Upgradable, Expected later this year or the next.

Each custom built OEM MDS DSP board is derived from a corresponding stock MDS DAE-6 and MDS DAE-6D DSP board. The boards were engineered to cooperate with Classe's home grown system board circuits which include but are not necessarily limited to their own implementation of power supply, volume control and DACs.

It is believed that both the current DSP and future dual-DSP boards are capable of DSD processing but it was not factored into the SSP-800's specifications. It is unknown whether a later firmware update would enable this feature or not. If significant interest was present in both the user community and in the form of HDMI enabled SACD hardware to make the investment in time and resources worthwhile it could be possible but it would be a long shot at best. The SSP-800 does not include the DSD DACs necessary for optimal performance and as such the signal would need to be converted into MPCM. All HDMI capable SACD players presently provide this facility circumventing the need to implement it within the processor.

ADCs

TBD

DACs

TI/BB PCM1792 Stereo Mode x3 (L & R, C & S and AUX1 & AUX2)
TI/BB PCM1796 Stereo Mode x2 (SL & SR and RL & RR)

Volume Control

CLI CS3318 Two eight channel volume controls; eight balanced and four single-ended.

Output Buffers

Balanced: NSC LME49720 Ultra-low distortion, low noise, high slew rate operational amplifier series optimized and fully specified for high performance, high fidelity applications.

Single Ended: TBD

Audio Inputs Analog

8 RCA: 7.1 Analog bypass ONLY.
4 RCA: 2.0 Analog bypass OR digital conversion.
2 XLR: 2.0 Analog bypass OR digital conversion.

Audio Inputs Digital

4 S/PDIF - Optical
4 S/PDIF - Coaxial
4 HDMI 1.3a (True HDMI repeater. Audio extracted from the inputs and put onto the outputs.)

Audio Outputs Analog

10 RCA: L, R, C, SW, SL, SR, RL, RR, AUX1, AUX2
10 XLR: L, R, C, SW, SL, SR, RL, RR, AUX1, AUX2

AUX1 and AUX2 can be used for…
- Extra subwoofers in a 7.3 configuration. OR
- L&R subwoofers in a 7.1 configuration. OR
- Bi-amping the L&R channels. OR
- Fixed use in another room.

Audio Outputs Digital

N/A

Video Inputs

2 S-Video
2 Composite
2 Component
4 HDMI 1.3a (36-Bit Deep Color Support)

Analog video sources can be output as either analog or digital while all digital video sources remain digital.

ADI ADV7802 12 Bit, 140 MHz Video Decoder (Component, S-Video and Composite A/D Conversion and Transcoding)

Video Outputs

1 Component
2 HDMI 1.3a (36-Bit Deep Color Support)

On Screen Display Overlay Supports all resolutions up to 1080p for both the built-in LCD and the main display screens.

Control Ports: IR IN & OUT, TRIGGER OUT1 & OUT2, USB, RS-232, CANBUS IN & OUT

Foot Print: Same chassis as used by the current SSP-600.

2CH Performance: Expected to be the best yet from the Delta Series.

MCH Performance: Expected to be the best available from anyone at any price.

[impala454]

This is a discussion of the two Denon separates mentioned. I respectfully request that you create a new thread if you'd like to discuss other equipment.

[littlesaint]

Has anyone reviewed the power amp? I have to question the power output specs. I can see maybe approaching 150W/ch x10 assuming the amp is very, very efficient, but 300w/ch? :E Even if it was very, very efficient, you'd need a 30A circuit to supply enough current for the 3000W needed.

[Glen B]

The amp's published specs don't say "all channels driven." No doubt each channel is capable of 150/300W but in a surround environment its a given that all channels won't be required to deliver equal power. The greatest demand is going to be on the main channels.

[John Holmes]

This is a Denon thread!

It has been asked by members quite nicely, to please stay focused on Denon. Those that do not comply will have future post deleted.

[wettou]

It has been asked by members quite nicely, to please stay focused on Denon. Those that do not comply will have future post deleted.

Fair enough,

[impala454]

The amp's published specs don't say "all channels driven." No doubt each channel is capable of 150/300W but in a surround environment its a given that all channels won't be required to deliver equal power. The greatest demand is going to be on the main channels.

Not to mention I don't recall any 9.1 surround formats

[cug]

Has anyone reviewed the power amp? I have to question the power output specs. I can see maybe approaching 150W/ch x10 assuming the amp is very, very efficient, but 300w/ch? :E Even if it was very, very efficient, you'd need a 30A circuit to supply enough current for the 3000W needed.

1. Maybe with "not all channels driven".

2. In Europe 3.8kW outlets are standard at least in Germany (240V, 16A). It feels pretty "backwards" to come to NA and have only 1600W or so outlets. And have the lights dim when you start the vacuum cleaner or laser printer.

So, it might be possible, but I doubt it can deliver the voltage to all channels at the same time.

[impala454]

I don't see 3000W as that big of a deal, even on a standard 120V circuit. I've got an EP2500 running a big sub and have no problems with dimming, and I'm sure there are plenty of people with more than one of them plugged into the same circuit.

[cug]

I don't see 3000W as that big of a deal, even on a standard 120V circuit. I've got an EP2500 running a big sub and have no problems with dimming, and I'm sure there are plenty of people with more than one of them plugged into the same circuit.

That's probably because you'll never need more than 20W on average (just for peaks and this is normally not drawn directly from the outlet).

I have some experience with drawing a lot of current from the circuits and when you power an amplifier to its limits, you want to be on the safe side. But that is certainly not necessary for a normal living room.

[sikoniko]

Mods, I hope I stayed on point with this. It's not intended to be a this is better than this, its intended to be a thought out approach on why or why not denon.

Lets get the obvious out of the way. I am a fan of classe and am eagerly looking forward to the SSP-800. Am I bias? Yes.

Now, with that being said... I don't care what Denon did 11 years ago. A lot can happen to a company in 11 years (obviously). As far as I am concerned, this is a first generation product. As such, its not proven in the market. Just like all technology, you will have your early adopters, and the ones that want to wait and see if the "proof is in the pudding." Look to Gartner for references to this kind of information in when making investments. They probably don't evaluate HT/2Channel stuff, but the concept is the same.

The classe is not even out yet, and no one on this board has heard it. How does it compare? No one knows. Classe's early adopters consist of people that are current customers, or ones that love the Proceed AVP. Its like the family who bought their first ford/chevy and will always buy a ford/chevy and their children might do the same based on good experiences with the product.

I bet the Denon sounds great if all you ever listen to is the Denon. I might be able to be blown away by the Denon. I currently have a Krell Showcase Proc that sounds great in my system. Imaging is fantastic.

The thing is, ignorance is bliss. If you don't have a "reference" to compare to, anything can sound good. It is when you put two models head to head that you begin to decide which you like better.

In regards to cost, there is a good point in being skeptical that the Denon will deliver with other brands that are in this price range. Why? Namely because of all of its features. I tried to mention this in another thread, but I don't think people got it.

What it all comes down to is priority. If your priority is a features first, function second, you would buy a swiss army knife. That is what this Denon is. A swiss army knife. Would you use a swiss army knife to operate with? I hope not.

Lets say that a company has $100 (to bring to scale) to spend on features. Do you include 10 features that cost $10 each, or do you have 3 or 4 features that cost $25-$33 each? Is cost always going to be justifiable? It depends on personal opinion. But, there is a high possibility that the quality of the few "features" will have higher gains on return than the quality of the many features.

This is where the skepticism of the Denon lies. where are they cutting costs to include all of these features?

If you gotta have the features, then by all means go for the denon. If you never compare it to anything else than I am sure you will be more than happy.

There is nothing wrong with the denon, just like there is nothing wrong with any other brand that delivers quality products. There is also nothing wrong with having your own opinion. I think the problem lies when people try and push their opinion on other people. The facts are the facts and the products have to sell themselves. noone is any better than anyone else because they bought brand X over brand Y or John Doe has deeper pockets than John Smith.

[GregLett]

Mods, I hope I stayed on point with this. It's not intended to be a this is better than this, its intended to be a thought out approach on why or why not denon.

Lets get the obvious out of the way. I am a fan of classe and am eagerly looking forward to the SSP-800. Am I bias? Yes.

Now, with that being said... I don't care what Denon did 11 years ago. A lot can happen to a company in 11 years (obviously). As far as I am concerned, this is a first generation product. As such, its not proven in the market. Just like all technology, you will have your early adopters, and the ones that want to wait and see if the "proof is in the pudding." Look to Gartner for references to this kind of information in when making investments. They probably don't evaluate HT/2Channel stuff, but the concept is the same.

The classe is not even out yet, and no one on this board has heard it. How does it compare? No one knows. Classe's early adopters consist of people that are current customers, or ones that love the Proceed AVP. Its like the family who bought their first ford/chevy and will always buy a ford/chevy and their children might do the same based on good experiences with the product.

I bet the Denon sounds great if all you ever listen to is the Denon. I might be able to be blown away by the Denon. I currently have a Krell Showcase Proc that sounds great in my system. Imaging is fantastic.

The thing is, ignorance is bliss. If you don't have a "reference" to compare to, anything can sound good. It is when you put two models head to head that you begin to decide which you like better.

In regards to cost, there is a good point in being skeptical that the Denon will deliver with other brands that are in this price range. Why? Namely because of all of its features. I tried to mention this in another thread, but I don't think people got it.

What it all comes down to is priority. If your priority is a features first, function second, you would buy a swiss army knife. That is what this Denon is. A swiss army knife. Would you use a swiss army knife to operate with? I hope not.

Lets say that a company has $100 (to bring to scale) to spend on features. Do you include 10 features that cost $10 each, or do you have 3 or 4 features that cost $25-$33 each? Is cost always going to be justifiable? It depends on personal opinion. But, there is a high possibility that the quality of the few "features" will have higher gains on return than the quality of the many features.

This is where the skepticism of the Denon lies. where are they cutting costs to include all of these features?

If you gotta have the features, then by all means go for the denon. If you never compare it to anything else than I am sure you will be more than happy.

There is nothing wrong with the denon, just like there is nothing wrong with any other brand that delivers quality products. There is also nothing wrong with having your own opinion. I think the problem lies when people try and push their opinion on other people. The facts are the facts and the products have to sell themselves. noone is any better than anyone else because they bought brand X over brand Y or John Doe has deeper pockets than John Smith.

Have you listened to the new Denon? Did you compare it to classe?

[littlesaint]

I don't see 3000W as that big of a deal, even on a standard 120V circuit. I've got an EP2500 running a big sub and have no problems with dimming, and I'm sure there are plenty of people with more than one of them plugged into the same circuit.

A 120V, 15A circuit would only give you 1800W, and that's at 100% efficiency which nothing is. The amp itself says only 12A consumption, so you're talking about 1400W total power.

Also, if you're bi-amping your speakers you would use all 10 channels in a 5.1 setup.

I also see the 4ohm specs are not given at full frequency range. These are the sort of things that make some people skeptical of Denon entering the ultra high-end market. Their still providing mid-fi specs I would expect in a Crutchfield catalog.

That's not to say the amp cannot deliver, but according to the published specs, I would have a lot of questions and I shouldn't at $7K.

[sikoniko]

Have you listened to the new Denon? Did you compare it to classe?

Did you read my post?

If you take issue with it, please indicate the general sections and adress them individually.

I personally am happy with Classe and see no reason to sway. If I was unhappy with classe, I would look outward. The objective of my post was not to give a this is better than that. It was an attempt to give perspective on why a lot of people will not take Denon seriously at this time.

I was attempting to give a non-bias answer as to the up-hill struggle Denon must climb to be taken seriously as a "high-end" company once again.

I don't pretend to hide my own bias, and in fact prefaced my own statement with that.

Again, NOBODY on this forum has had an opportunity to compare the two.

A person buying the Denon today can easily say they have a great product. Any college student who has taken Marketing will tell you, price is often used to define "hi-end" or quality, whether it is or not. I was in Vegas 2 weeks ago and they were selling designer cell phones for $5000. Does that mean they are better than a $100 nokia? no. It is until they actually compare Denon to ANY OTHER BRAND that they are able to qualify that statement.

I still throw out there that there will be people that think the Integra is a better product (and value) than the Denon. My cousin will argue that his $250 Sony receiver is better. That is not the point of my post and please don't be defensive.

[cxc21]

There is absolutely no justification based on materials used and labor costs for this kind of price for home electronics. No revolutionary technology breakthrough either. These just appeals to the "It is expensive so it must be good" crowd with money to burn. These maybe for those insecure about their judgment about sound or no time to compare but with the desire to have the best possible. This peace of mind will cost you $10000 extra. It is like spending $30000 extra on a Mercedes for a few electro motors to move the seat. That said, we all probably pay way too much for home electronics. I am sure the Denons are very very good but after spending so much money problems are often difficult to admit.

[GregLett]

I bet the Denon sounds great if all you ever listen to is the Denon. I might be able to be blown away by the Denon. I currently have a Krell Showcase Proc that sounds great in my system. Imaging is fantastic.

The thing is, ignorance is bliss. If you don't have a "reference" to compare to, anything can sound good. It is when you put two models head to head that you begin to decide which you like better.

.

This. Maybe misinterpreted your meaning. I understood it as "you will only like Denon if that's all you listen to". But I see you opened up in the next sentence. " I might be able to be blown away by the Denon"


I think the bottom line here is that people should give the thing a listen first!
I personally Love the Look of Classe but it is not the best sound for me. I find the gear a little on the bright side.

[sikoniko]

keep in mind that I was blown away by amc's presentation of iron man. that doesn't mean I don't prefer the quality of my ht at home.

there is nothing wrong with different opinions. what I am arguing is taking the position of absolutes, which I myself have been guilt of in the past. especially when referring to products that are not on the market.

there is no absolute product. the denon will be better than another brand for some people.

to the above poster, there is a point on return where an investment does not yield equal or greater returns. it is not fair for you to set the bar for everyone else, let alone judge them for their decision.

[GregLett]

We are on the same page.

[H.T.C]

There is some awful vibes by forum members about denon (what comes around goes around) and one day the company you admire may produce a faulty or overpriced product that isnt worth the name on it.

Denon is manufacturing home theater separates geared just for that purpose and pure 2-channal audio wasnt the design at the time so more features are put into reflect that,of course the wattage of 150 per channal could have been lowered to (35/45) and the amount of surround channels from 10 to 5 and then used some more expensive parts even eliminated those great looking meters to lower price but did not,so what, its made for a entirely different market.

There is one other factor here which is,in bad economic times when people refuse or cant pay for high priced ticket items,companies like classe,mark levenson ($50,000 mono blocks),naim will put out of business and companies like denon could continue to produce mass market (quality as best can be for the price) a/v products for a enthusiast at lower prices.

[sikoniko]

There is some awful vibes by forum members about denon (what comes around goes around) and one day the company you admire may produce a faulty or overpriced product that isnt worth the name on it.

Denon is manufacturing home theater separates geared just for that purpose and pure 2-channal audio wasnt the design at the time so more features are put into reflect that,of course the wattage of 150 per channal could have been lowered to (35/45) and the amount of surround channels from 10 to 5 and then used some more expensive parts even eliminated those great looking meters to lower price but did not,so what, its made for a entirely different market.

There is one other factor here which is,in bad economic times when people refuse or cant pay for high priced ticket items,companies like classe,mark levenson ($50,000 mono blocks),naim will put out of business and companies like denon could continue to produce mass market (quality as best can be for the price) a/v products for a enthusiast at lower prices.

your agument is non sequentor and seems to be just for the sake of arguing.

either way, it is off topic.

let the denon people enjoy their products.

[Hdale85]

I don't think there is anything wrong with Denon I was just saying the AVP is very expensive. You can get something like 90% of the performance of this unit for a lot less money. Sure other units costing a fraction of the money don't use quad DAC's and what not but I don't see that as needed for HT use.

[H.T.C]

your agument is non sequentor and seems to be just for the sake of arguing.

either way, it is off topic.

let the denon people enjoy their products.

I dont think it was just for an argument and it was not off topic since the thread is about denon but turned into classe instead.

The point being if someone doesn't think denon is up to par surely they dont have to purchase any product from the company.

[impala454]

The point being if someone doesn't think denon is up to par surely they dont have to purchase any product from the company.

But they do feel the need to belittle the product for some reason

So far the only real tangible negative I've seen anyone give is the price, which in itself is very subjective anyhow. The only other griping seemed to be by people who have suggested it's not that great of a piece of equipment. The ironic thing to me is it seems that the only person in this thread who has experience using and listening to it thoroughly enjoys it. The others seem to be caught up in some kind of brand e-pissing contest (which I already respectfully and calmly asked be taken somewhere else).

For the last time, I ask that we simply discuss the given product. A > B is not a discussion. It's ok to not like the thing, that's great, it promotes discussion. But elaborate on what you don't like instead of bringing up something else you like better.

[John Holmes]

This is not how we do business at HTGuide

I just saw a Hemi Cuda go for $525,000 on HDNet.

MY point... it doesn't matter what I think the car is worth. Someone wanted it so, they bought it. And that's great for them. I have no position on what makes someone else happy.

No one here knows what percentage of performance said product is vs. the Denon.

[Z Man]

But they do feel the need to belittle the product for some reason

So far the only real tangible negative I've seen anyone give is the price, which in itself is very subjective anyhow. The only other griping seemed to be by people who have suggested it's not that great of a piece of equipment. The ironic thing to me is it seems that the only person in this thread who has experience using and listening to it thoroughly enjoys it. The others seem to be caught up in some kind of brand e-pissing contest (which I already respectfully and calmly asked be taken somewhere else).

For the last time, I ask that we simply discuss the given product. A > B is not a discussion. It's ok to not like the thing, that's great, it promotes discussion. But elaborate on what you don't like instead of bringing up something else you like better.

Yeah there doesn't seem to be too much love here for Denon. But it's interesting as this forum seems to be the minority. Almost every other AV forum I've been to have had mostly positive things to say about the new Denon separates.

At the end of the day it's what makes you happy that's the most important thing. I bought the AVP because it offers everything that I have ever wanted in a high performance pre/pro. Some may belittle the AVP and have never even heard it. I have been using mine for over 2 months now, and it does everything that was claimed, and offers excellent sound quality with both HT and 2 channel. Everything I've tried on my AVP has been working flawlessly so far, and that feels good. I have been spending countless hours just sitting back and enjoying my new pre/pro.

HT, 2 channel CD's, streamed music, and multi-channel music have all been a joy to listen to. When I buy a new product and it makes me smile when I use it, I will have only good things to say about it. Well so far the AVP has me smiling.

The biggest things that drew me to the AVP are:

Fully balanced design
Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA decoding
6 HDMI inputs
3 XLR sub pre-outs
High quality A/D conversion
THX Ultra 2 processing
Music streaming of WAV, flac, and WMA Lossless
Realta scaling/processing
HDCD Decoding

Sure $7k is a lot of money to spend on a pre/pro, but if you think about it, the Denon AVP is the least expensive of the current wave of high end pre/pro's. Everything else is $8k on up. So looking at it that way, the Denon AVP is a bargain.

The Denon AVP is an excellent product and hopefully will start to get the respect it deserves.


Seth

[Glen B]

the Denon AVP is the least expensive of the current wave of high end pre/pro's. Everything else is $8k on up.

No its not. I can think of two other pre/pros that readily come to mind at $5,995 and $899 respectively. They may not have the litany of features the Denon does but IMO their intended performance level makes them "high end"

[btf1980]

No its not. I can think of two other pre/pros that readily come to mind at $5,995 and $899 respectively. They may not have the litany of features the Denon does but IMO their intended performance level makes them "high end"

What are the 2 pre/pros?

[sikoniko]

But they do feel the need to belittle the product for some reason

So far the only real tangible negative I've seen anyone give is the price, which in itself is very subjective anyhow. The only other griping seemed to be by people who have suggested it's not that great of a piece of equipment. The ironic thing to me is it seems that the only person in this thread who has experience using and listening to it thoroughly enjoys it. The others seem to be caught up in some kind of brand e-pissing contest (which I already respectfully and calmly asked be taken somewhere else).

For the last time, I ask that we simply discuss the given product. A > B is not a discussion. It's ok to not like the thing, that's great, it promotes discussion. But elaborate on what you don't like instead of bringing up something else you like better.

my post was non brand bias. the fact that you perceive that I don't share your opinion is what upsets you.

if you read what I said, you would know that I said one brand is not better than the other. in fact, the only time I mentioned another brand is when I qualified myself.

the purpose of my post was to respond to the question why people don't take the denon seriously. I answered it, and obviously my answer was not what people were looking for.


there are cases where someone will prefer one over anotherm and here is what bothers you. I say there is nothing wrong with that. you want me to share your opinion or move on.

zman, I am trying to answer this based on memory, as my phone does not show pictures. are you the one with the b&w speakers? if so, as a fellow b&w owner, I think it is fantastic you found electronics that make you smile. isn't a great feeling? we spend a long time chasing the sound, and once we finallly achieve it, its like a breathe of fresh air. the perfect place to relax and enjoy the hobby without feeling like you need to upgrade this or that. even if you don't have b&w's it is still a great feeling!

[impala454]

my post was non brand bias. the fact that you perceive that I don't share your opinion is what upsets you.

if you read what I said, you would know that I said one brand is not better than the other. in fact, the only time I mentioned another brand is when I qualified myself.

the purpose of my post was to respond to the question why people don't take the denon seriously. I answered it, and obviously my answer was not what people were looking for.


there are cases where someone will prefer one over anotherm and here is what bothers you. I say there is nothing wrong with that. you want me to share your opinion or move on.

Guy, I don't see where I mentioned your name, quoted your post, or even implied I was responding to you so please don't retort back to me or start psychoanalyzing me. I own one piece of Denon equipment so no, I'm not the fanboy you're trying to pin me for. I am here for one thing, to learn.

But to ask for the third time. Can we keep the discussion about the AVP/POA? You don't have to like the thing, but don't say you don't like it because the tag says Denon. Tell us what specifically you don't like about this particular pre-pro and/or amp. That's what promotes discussion and learning. If you don't have anything to say specifically about these two items (good or bad), then honestly you have no business in this thread.