What are some really nice veneers and finishes to use for speakers?

[PMazz]

You can apply a wipe on finish to all sides at once. No benefit of poly over tung oil, especially on veneer as tung oil is a penetrating finish (not recommended for veneer at all).

Pete

[slayer]

So you are saying to just start off with the poly/mineral spirits wipe on from the start?

[Martyn]

Opt-e, Home Depot in Canada does typically carry some HVLP sprayers. However, when I was researching this subject last year, I decided to buy a higher quality gun that is still small enough to run off my 20 gallon compressor. I decided on www.woodessence.com as the Canadian source (I just haven't got around to buying it yet). A modest compressor is just too useful to be without.

[Martyn]

Are you using Minwax Tung oil or is there a better brand?

Just pick one that is marked as being 100% tung oil - some products are described as being tung oil but are really blends.

[opt-e]

Opt-e, Home Depot in Canada does typically carry some HVLP sprayers. However, when I was researching this subject last year, I decided to buy a higher quality gun that is still small enough to run off my 20 gallon compressor. I decided on www.woodessence.com as the Canadian source (I just haven't got around to buying it yet). A modest compressor is just too useful to be without.

Thanks Martyn.. I took a quick look at the woodessense.com page. Unfortunately it looks like all the guns they have on that page are just way out of my budget.

I may have to reconsider if I can find uses for a compressor. What kind of things can you use them for around the house?

[PMazz]

So you are saying to just start off with the poly/mineral spirits wipe on from the start?

I would. With a penetrating finish (usually an oil) over veneer, you risk interaction with the veneer glue. Poly has urethane oil (which I prefer over tung) which will penetrate somewhat anyway. For the first couple coats I would only thin it with about 10-20% naptha (better than mineral spirits as it dries quicker) to build up some finish.

Pete

[slayer]

I might be using a water based stain first, then start going over it with the poly.
I considered using the water based polycrylic as well. Anyone ever try polycrylic?
With no odor, I could do it in the house with less chance of dust and such. I think i'm going to just go buy some different items and start playing and see what gives the best results. More expensive this way but at least I will know.

[PMazz]

I've used the polycrylic. It's easy enough to use but gives a very "plastic" looking finish.

Pete

[Brian Bunge]

Darren Thomas turned me on to using Boiled Linseed Oil mixed 50/50 with naptha. The naptha thins out the linseed oil and helps it to dry faster. I put in on with 0000 steel wool, let it sit 10 minutes, and then wipe off the excess. The lint free, blue shop paper towels are great for wiping off the excess. I wait an hour to do the next coat, basically doing 3-4 coats in a day. The next day I start applying wipe on poly. Minwax is crap. The stuff I use is an oil/poly blend that is just beautiful. I did this along with 8 coats of poly on my towers and about 5 coats of poly on my sub and center channel cabinet.

[Brian Walter]

Brian, I find it odd that you think Minwax wipe-on poly is crap. Fine Woodworking did a test of 16 different wipe on finishes and they picked Minwax as Best Overall and Best Value. I have only used Minwax wipe-on and General Finishes - Royal wipe-on Finish, so I can not say how they compare to the others that were tested, but I liked the General Finishes product better.

I'm getting close to being ready to put the top coat on my RS WWMT's, so I need to decide what I'm going to do pretty soon. I usally spray on an oil based poly finish, but I might try something different this time. But then again I hate experimenting on something that I've put so much effort into making.

I highly recommend thinning oil based poly with naptha for spraying. It seems to flow out more evenly and drys quicker and harder. This was not a double blind test, and I don't have any measurements to back up the claim, so I may just be imagining things.

Brian Walter

[Brian Bunge]

Brian,

I've heard about that test. Do you know if it's available online? I'd like to see what brands they actually tested. If you want a plastic looking finish then go with the Minwax. If not, see if there's a Wood You unfinished furniture store near you and use their wipe on polys. They far exceed Minwax in the quality of finish and are just as easy to apply. I think you'll pay a little more, about $8 for a pint IIRC, but it's definitely worth it. I've gone back to using Minwax for a few projects when I was in a pinch and didn't have my regular stuff on hand, but I'll never do that again.

You can also check out www.olddads.com as that is the company that manufactures the polys that Wood You sells. The semi-gloss and gloss versions are my favorite!

[Martyn]

In my experience the Minwax products are generally better than most of the other brands you'll find in your local hardware store. However, you will probably do better by seeking out a more specialised source.

Be this as it may, it doesn't make much sense to pick your finish until you've chosen your veneer. With oak, for example, you'll probably use a pigmented stain whereas with curly maple you'll do better with an aniline dye. If you then use a succession of finishes that are not compatible with each other, you'll be heading for a major refinishing exercise.

You can buy a good book on finishing for the price of a couple of cans of varnish (try Jeff Jewitt's book). Like most things, after a while you start to realise how much there is to know.

Otherwise, with a figured wood I'd sand to at least 220, wet to raise the grain, light sand, dye, light sand, seal with dewaxed shellac, light sand. At this point you can choose pretty well any finish you wish (of which there is an infinite variety) to build the lustre or film you are after. If you want a satin or semi-gloss film finish, use a gloss product and knock back the shine. Satin/semi products are simply gloss products that contain matting agents. These additives also reduce the clarity of the product and will partially obscure the figure of the wood.

[Amphiprion]

Is quilted maple not available in 4x8 paper backed form? I love the look but can't find any.

[Jim Holtz]

Is quilted maple not available in 4x8 paper backed form? I love the look but can't find any.

Oakwood Veneer company http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/ does offer it but lists inquire for a price. It'll be waaay expensive. I highly recommend Oakwood veneer, BTW. Excellent quality.

HTH

Jim

[Amphiprion]

I may have to use fiddleback/tiger if quilted is too much. Quilted is just sooooo beautiful though. Oddly, I've never been such a huge fan of birdseye.

[Martyn]

You don't need to limit yourself to paper-backed veneer. Apart from expanding your choice, natural veneers are likely to be thicker which will give you more room for sanding errors!

[JonW]

Excellent discussion, folks. :T

I'm curious to see what Colorado Tom has to say about his finish in the end. And if we like it, maybe he'll be kind enough to provide all the details (products, application steps, etc.). His test piece (in the photo Thomas hosted) looks very nice. Maybe it would be fun (for me) to try it out without the final steel wool run down, for a more glossy look.

And the guitar in the photo is nice as well. A couple years ago I was tempted to buy myself an American Deluxe Strat (noiseless pups... mmm...) but I don't play enough to warrant it. Besides, the colors and finishes on those specific guitars are actually unattractive.

For those of you looking for veneer...
I just today ordered myself some maple, flat cut, grade A, bubble free veneer from Oakwood. It will be my first veneering attemp. At the moment, I really like simple maple. Out of curiousity, I asked them how much a sheet of quilted maple is. It's about $13.50-16.50 per square foot, depending on how much quilting there is. Minimum purchase of 4'x8', so it ain't cheap. I best save that for after my first project.

[Amphiprion]

that price isn't actually too bad, I only need a 2x8 or 4x4 section. I gotta lot of speaker builders local to me, may see if someone wants to split one

[JonW]

Given how pretty quilted maple is, I guess a 4'x8' sheet at around $500 maybe isn't too bad. I'm not yet caibrated. When I'm done building the Modula MT's, I have the vague idea (in the back of my mind) of trying a no-compromise speaker project. I could see where the finish materials, alone could be in the $500-1,000 range. Hmmm...

[Martyn]

It's almost worth building speakers just for the glory of wonderful veneers! More pragmatically, building a pair of small two-ways is quite affordable and even that ultimate floor-stander could probably be justified by the increased WAF, but for the incurably addicted compulsive serial builders, the cost of figured veneers may seriously damage their output!

[Amphiprion]

I much prefer to build fewer, very high quality speakers with a lot of design involved. For me the design is much more fun than the woodworking aspects, so I envision myself tackling challenging projects that take a lot of design work and tweaking rather than producing large quantities of easier speakers.

[JonW]

It's almost worth building speakers just for the glory of wonderful veneers! More pragmatically, building a pair of small two-ways is quite affordable and even that ultimate floor-stander could probably be justified by the increased WAF, but for the incurably addicted compulsive serial builders, the cost of figured veneers may seriously damage their output!

Indeed! There are a few commercial speakers I've seen that are works of art, just sitting in the room even when they're not in use.

I built my sub (nothing special to look at) and had more fun with that than I expected. Now I'm building the Modula MT's and really enjoying that. No idea how far this will all go or when (or if) I might get bored with it. But yeah, I can easily see wanting to get fancy with the speakers and the veneers.

[JonW]

I much prefer to build fewer, very high quality speakers with a lot of design involved.

Can't argue with that. :T I'm quite enjoying the woodworking, myself.

[ColoradoTom]

Guys/Gals(are there any Gals on this site??):

I quickly veneered the piece of MDF that I used for testing the facet jig for the M8ta's. The pieces of veneer I used were really bad scraps of Santos Rosewood - so the veneering doesnt look all that good (there were cracks/holes that I had to fill and some of the pieces were really too small for this test so the edges aren't the best). I prepped the surfaces and then I used a dyed (amber) sealer coat of shellac. I've been using the "spit coat" method of applying the poly finish (one part poly to three parts mineral oil) and have been putting on three to four coats a day for the past two days. If you can look past the crappy veneer the finish is beginning to look pretty good. I have been applying it by adding a little to a rag (this time pieces of an old bed sheet) and then wiping it onto the surface. I'm cheap so for this test I've been using a product by Varathane called "Spar Urethane" this stuff:

http://www.rustoleum.com/product.asp?frm_product_id=667&SBL=1

I use it on my front doors (solid oak) and it takes major abuse and still looks wonderful. If the test goes well I will take some pictures and post them. The thing I like about this methed so far is that the applied layers of poly seem very thin and you avoid that "cheezy",plastic, thick ply look. Additionally, this method has been very easy to apply - just add to a cloth and wipe on. No build up on corners or edges so far. I'll keep you posted.

Tom

[Amphiprion]

Can't argue with that.

Trust me, nobody does, after they see the horrid works that are my finishes... I should leave everything raw MDF at this point instead of trying things like quilted maple

[JonW]

Tom-
Sounds excellent. We'll see what you think when it's all done.

My 4x8 sheet of maple veneer arrived yesterday. Veeeeeery nice looking. Mmmmm... :T I'll see what Tom comes up with for a potential finish. Or some spitcoat version of that. Not sure if I'll want to add any stain to the maple or not. At the moment, I like it as is. Don't know what I'll think a couple years from now.

[JonW]

I've got another question on this topic:
How smooth does the wood need to be prior to adding the veneer? How much can be tolerated in terms of dings and gaps? I would think that some little spots will be filled in by the contact cement. But big gaps will need Bondo. Just trying to get a feel for if I need to Bondo things or whatever else it is I should do. Thanks.

[jonathanb3478]

I've got another question on this topic:

You're not alone. I would like some input on this aspect of veneering as well. So would other veneer newbies, I imagine.

[BobEllis]

As with much of life, the answer is "it depends" The thinner your veneer, the more likely that surface imperfections will show through. Since I'd rather not mess up a nice veneer, I go with the painting adage that surface prep is 80%+ of the job. If you can feel or see an imperfection, it will probably show through.

My first iron on veneer job had a few bumps from not spreading the glue evenly. I thought I could iron it out, but I couldn't get rid of all of them. I haven't used contact cement under veneer, so I cannot comment on how well that levels.

[JonW]

Thanks Bob. I haven't yet flush trimmed and sanded down my first cabinet, so I'm not sure how bad it will (or will not) be. The veneer I got is quite thick- much more than I expected it to be. (It's also real purty. ) So I wonder if it can tolerate some gaps, maybe under 1 mm or so. We'll see. This first center speaker is my big learning experience.

[PMazz]

You'd be surprised how little imperfections can telegraph thru veneer over time. Best to do the surface prep and not get surprised later. I usually use standard wood putty followed by automotive spot putty for the little dings. Also best to let the MDF breathe for a while after glue up as the MDF will want to shrink after the moisture from the glue has settled out. If you're in a high humidity environment, take the enclosures into the house and let them settle in for a few days before flattening, prepping and veneer. You'd be surprised how much MDF moves, and that perfect butt joint today will look visibly off tomorrow.

Pete

[jonathanb3478]

Also best to let the MDF breathe for a while after glue up as the MDF will want to shrink after the moisture from the glue has settled out. If you're in a high humidity environment, take the enclosures into the house and let them settle in for a few days before flattening, prepping and veneer. You'd be surprised how much MDF moves, and that perfect butt joint today will look visibly off tomorrow.

Thanks for the tips!

[slayer]

Any tips on working with Maple? I want a darker finish on it and my test stains have turned out like junk.

[Amphiprion]

You need to use some sort of sealer before staining to prevent uneven absorption of the stain. Also maybe use analine dyes/stain instead of regular pigment stuff.

[Martyn]

Do your tests on veneer samples that you have bonded to the substrate - you will be misled if you try staining just the raw veneer.

On maple, use aniline dyes instead of pigmented stains - you'll get much greater clarity. You will also have more success with lighter tones - "honey amber" is particularly popular. If you want a dark colour, you might do better with a different veneer - cherry, bubinga, etc.

Start with a dye that's more dilute than you might expect - it's easier to put more on than to take some off.

Be prepared to put a couple of coats of your chosen finish on your samples - it'll make a big dfference.

Sorry if this sounds like a lot of extra work - it is, but it's worth it!

[Amphiprion]

Martyn sounds like he knows more about this stuff than me - what I learned was when I was having trouble with maple and I eventually said to hell with it and just clear coated it with some poly I am a big fan of natural maple now.

The problem is, IIRC, that the pores of the wood vary in size irregularly across the face of the wood. Pigmented stains have large particle size that gets absorbed into the large pores but not the small ones, giving you a very blotchy and ugly appearance. Aniline dyes have much smaller particles that get into both size pores for more even appearance. Sealing the wood is done to prevent deep penetration of stains into the larger pores in another attempt to keep it more evenly absorbed.

Please correct me if I have any of this wrong, as I have never successfully stained/dyed maple

[ThomasW]

Mark you're correct, it's a very good idea to use a sanding sealer on Maple before trying to stain it... :T

[JonW]

So... Has anyone heard from Colorado Tom on his finishing experiments...?

[ThomasW]

Nope he's gone 'dark' .... :B

Probably a function of family and work obligations....

[JonW]

Nope he's gone 'dark' .... :B

Probably a function of family and work obligations....

Work obligations? I have no idea what you're talking about. Heck, it only took me 3 months to build my sub. Priorities, you know.

[Hank]

Work obligations? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yeah, what is this "work obligations" thing?

[ColoradoTom]

Sorry everyone.... my wife and I play mixed doubles tennis and our team has made it into playoffs (scheduled for next weekend). Since we are currently in the #1 position for our team we have been having a LOT of practice matches weeknites and weekends. In addition we have been especially busy in our business for the past two weeks and for whatever reason my girls have been especially "needy" and have wanted a lot of "daddy" time which is at the top of my priorities. The tests came out OK but not fantastic - there is still a residual "plastic" look to the "spit" poly finish........ currently I think I can do better with a tung oil finish.

More later.........

Tom

[JonW]

Sorry everyone.... my wife and I play mixed doubles tennis and our team has made it into playoffs (scheduled for next weekend). Since we are currently in the #1 position for our team we have been having a LOT of practice matches weeknites and weekends. In addition we have been especially busy in our business for the past two weeks and for whatever reason my girls have been especially "needy" and have wanted a lot of "daddy" time which is at the top of my priorities. The tests came out OK but not fantastic - there is still a residual "plastic" look to the "spit" poly finish........ currently I think I can do better with a tung oil finish.

More later.........

Tom

You're spending quality time with your wife and kids, and you expect us to accept that as an excuse?! :P Go out, have some fun, enjoy life while you can. :T And later, when you get a chance, report back to us on your finishing experiments. (I figure I've got 1-2 months before my cabinets are done and in need of some slick finishing.) Good luck with the tennis match.

[ColoradoTom]

You're spending quality time with your wife and kids, and you expect us to accept that as an excuse?! :P Go out, have some fun, enjoy life while you can. :T And later, when you get a chance, report back to us on your finishing experiments. (I figure I've got 1-2 months before my cabinets are done and in need of some slick finishing.) Good luck with the tennis match.

Thanks Jon.......

I've got a little break here so I'll try to sum up some ideas:

The Poly "Spit" Polish technique is fine - its relatively easy, it doesn't cause build-up problems around multiple edges such as those on the M8ta, and if rubbed out after setting up for a few weeks it will most likely give a handsome, durable finish.

My problem is that the products from General Finishes ("Seal-A-Cell" followed by a top coat (or two) of "Arm-R-Seal") do just as well or better and so I'm not convinced it's worth pursuing at this time. The tung oil mixture "pops" the grain in the wood better than the poly does and the finish has a more classic "wet" look to it. The poly looks a bit "plastic" when doing a direct comparison. I plan to get ThomasW over to listen to my system soon and perhaps he can provide a second opinion by looking at some of the samples I've made.

I'll be trying one last test of a method of wiping on thinned fast-dry varnish, it is a technique used by Jeff Jewitt where he thins the varnish with naptha and applies it with a paper towel. He states that he can get up to three coats in one day and I should be able to rub it out in a week.
Sounds promising so I'll let you know how it turns out. I'll need to veneer a few test pieces and then test the procedure out afterwards.... don't expect any news for a week or two!!

Hopefully after (winning) this weekend I will have a lot more free time to work on finishing up the M8ta's and providing some feed back on my final technique chosen to complete them.

I'm now beginning to understand why it took so long for Jon (#1) to finish his pair!!

Tom

[ColoradoTom]

BTW --- if you haven't looked at the work done on the "Kharma" clone thread check this out:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6673

Outstanding work with real class styling!!

Tom