Got any nice non-veneer finishes you really like for speakers?

[JonW]

For my ongoing speaker design project, the front baffle seems like it’s going to end up with an odd shape. I’ll make the cabinets out of baltic birch plywood. Then most likely cut out facets and sand down all the sharp edges. So lots of the plywood lines showing. It won’t look exactly like these (rather unattractive) Thiel speakers, but this pic will give you some idea of what I’m talking about:


I don’t think I’ll have any luck veneering something with such a complex 3D shape.

So what else can I do for finishing the speakers? I could try a red dye followed by some polyurethane, but not sure how that would be in the end. You'd still see all the ply lines. There is the classic piano gloss black, although I’m not sure my finishing skills (ahem) are up to that. Could be interesting to try, though. Maybe some automotive paint of some sort and clear coat? Some other type of painting? I dunno. I’ve got the Rockler $100 HVLP sprayer, but have not yet had much luck trying to use it.

Hey, it's not the most important part of speaker building, but looks do count.

Just curious what you folks like or might suggest for finishes. Thanks.

-Jon

[Chris7]

Believe it or not, this finish is $10/can truck bedliner... inexpensive, very easy to apply, forgiving of surface imperfections, very durable, and IMHO extremely nice looking:

[kingpin]

Which company is that bedliner stuff from?

[dlneubec]

Hi Jon,

You'll probably have a lot of work ahead to make those plywood edges smooth enough for most painting options. Fill, sand, fill, sand ........, prime, sand, prime, sand................. :E

However, I think they might look pretty good just left natural (no stain) with several coats of sanding sealer/poly, etc. to fill in the end grain of the plywood at the edges with sanding between coats.

You can do some interesting things with contrasting materials. For example, you might do a very high gloss oil/poly spitcoat type finish on the sides and then do something textured on the baffle. With a textured textured material you will have much less work on your hands in covering up the plywood edges. In the pic below of my Mentor Omni's I have a high gloss finish on the Italian Rosewood veneer and a contrasting textured paint (stone-look) on the baffles and trim (kind of hard to see the texture in the picture). I could only find one or two colors at the local hardware store, so I settled on this light one. I neglected to check at Lowe's until afterward and found they have a good selection of colors in this type of textured paint and it covers flaws very well. Just sand reasonably smooth, add a coat or two of BIN primer, sanding between coats and then a couple coats of the textured paint. You can cover the textured paint with a clear coat if you want a more durable finish. I like the flat (not shiny) finish of the stone-look next to the high gloss.

BTW, the tweeter baffles and base is painted with a Duplicolor metallic black that I picked up at an automotive store, but it doesn't hide flaws as well as the heavier textured options do. Same for Duplicolor truck bed liner, which looks much like the black finish you see painted on most driver frames. I've also had pretty good luck with it.

(Edit) I see Chris beat me to the latter.

[Biff]

I have had good luck with using the fleckstone faux granite finishes, great build and really masks any chip-outs, voids, or seams. You can use it for a basic texture and then paint over, even roller it, if you can't find the color you want. A friend suggested after seeing a pair I refinished that the spray texture for drywall patching would work, sets up very hard and tales paint well. I ahve had great succuss SAF wise with using the crackle finish process from HD. You can pick your base color and top colors separately - one pair I did in sage green over a dark green was pretty sweet, and an employee got a pair I did in antique white over gold, and his wife actually smiled. I am considering using copper colored leaf on my next baffle, and most craft stores have the leaf and sizing in stock.These guys have some neat sheet goods that might be hard to beat, http://www.alsacorp.com/products/fxs...ting_price.htm. I have considered upholstering baffles with a thin layer of felt and then a faux suede thinking it might actually help sonically. I did my last pair in charcoal colored hammered metal spray and they look great but didn't cover the eventual seam shrink lines as well as I hoped. If I do that again I'll wait a bit and bondo the seams first.

[moreants]

Ive used;

-faux painted mdf
-hammered look paint
-felt baffles
-reverse painted acrylic (black lacquer look)
-leatherette
-removed backing on vinyl and stuck fiberglass screening painted it then glued the 'front' to the baffle (sounds weird but makes a neat texture).

[JonW]

Chris-
Thanks. Truck bed liner seems to be real popular around here. And yours looks at least as good as the others I’ve seen. :T Not sure it’s for me, but something to think about.

Dan-
Yours came out quite nice. I didn’t realize there would be a lot of filling and sanding for most paints. Never tried that. And good idea about the contrasting finishes.

You know, I have been thinking about leaving it natural. Here are the shelves I made from BB ply and all I did was add 2 coats of oil-based polyurethane. The poly made them a wee bit darker but the ply lines didn't darken much. It looks a little better than I expected:


Images not available


And my speakers may take on a shape similar, but not identical, to Jon’s M8ta’s. They look good unfinished/natural:



But they do look nicer finished:

[JonW]

Biff and Moreants-
Thanks for the ideas. I’m not really into textured finishes, for some reason. That stick-on metal stuff you linked to is interesting. Never seen anything like it before. Copper could look really nice. But I doubt I could bend it in the 3D shapes I need. For fabric and such, I think there are some speakers using leather on the front baffle. That sure would be different. They might smell nice. Maybe a black lacquer type of thing? An automotive paint with clear coat? Idunno…

[cobbpa]

Maybe the PE vinyl? It's cheap and therefore not the absolute greatest looking, but still is presentable, IMO. I'm guessing how well it wraps the facets depends on how wide each facet is. Any idea? It does fairly well around corners / bends. For that matter, any adhesive vinyl could work. I believe this is a way some people finish their baffles (black vinyl).

I liked the way your rack looked and think the unfinished M8ta is appealing as well, so just my opinion..that'd look pretty nice.

[moreants]

Right now I'm into automobile lacquer but here's something I've done recently. Contact paper with a wash of hobby paint.

Before and afters:

[dlneubec]

Chris-
Thanks. Truck bed liner seems to be real popular around here. And yours looks at least as good as the others I’ve seen. :T Not sure it’s for me, but something to think about.

Dan-
Yours came out quite nice. I didn’t realize there would be a lot of filling and sanding for most paints. Never tried that. And good idea about the contrasting finishes.

You know, I have been thinking about leaving it natural. Here are the shelves I made from BB ply and all I did was add 2 coats of oil-based polyurethane. The poly made them a wee bit darker but the ply lines didn't darken much. It looks a little better than I expected:


Images not available


And my speakers may take on a shape similar, but not identical, to Jon’s M8ta’s. They look good unfinished/natural:

Hi Jon,

The finish on your rack looks great.

If it were me, I'd go natural on the speakers. I would consider is a possible mix of material for a little variety, like I did in my NaO Mini's (below), where I mixed maple and cherry (not suggesting you do this on your baffle, however). You could possibly veneer the body with a darker wood, like walnut or cherry and use the poly finish over the BB on the baffle, so you would have a two tone, all wood finish. I prefer to pick the natural wood that gives me the colors I want and then bring out the color with boiled linseed oil or urethane oil and a poly finish, not stain.

Another option that would look classy would be to use all the same wood and finish, except route or dado a 1/4" deep by 3/4" wide strip all around the outside edge of the back of the baffle. Then get some standard, contrasting 3/4" hardwood, say walnut, and rip 1/4"x3/4" filler pieces to fit in the dado. You would end up with a narrow dark strip all around the back of the baffle between it and the main body of the speaker for a nice understated detail that could really set them apart from the typical.

[JonW]

Hi Phillip-
A heat shrink vinyl could wrap up things pretty well. Although I’ve got a strong bias against plastic products on projects like this. (I deal with that too much at work! Home is a break from all that.) Although I make an exception regarding poly finishes and such.

Right now I'm into automobile lacquer

Interesting. Got any more info on finishing wood with auto paints? Could be very, very nice, I’d think.

[JonW]

Hi Jon,

The finish on your rack looks great.

If it were me, I'd go natural on the speakers. I would consider is a possible mix of material for a little variety, like I did in my NaO Mini's (below), where I mixed maple and cherry (not suggesting you do this on your baffle, however). You could possibly veneer the body with a darker wood, like walnut or cherry and use the poly finish over the BB on the baffle, so you would have a two tone, all wood finish. I prefer to pick the natural wood that gives me the colors I want and then bring out the color with boiled linseed oil or urethane oil and a poly finish, not stain.

Another option that would look classy would be to use all the same wood and finish, except route or dado a 1/4" deep by 3/4" wide strip all around the outside edge of the back of the baffle. Then get some standard, contrasting 3/4" hardwood, say walnut, and rip 1/4"x3/4" filler pieces to fit in the dado. You would end up with a narrow dark strip all around the back of the baffle between it and the main body of the speaker for a nice understated detail that could really set them apart from the typical.

Thanks Dan. Your NaO’s definitely look nice enough to warrant use in your avatar. :T Maple and cherry- my two favorites, and classics.

Staying natural is appealing because, heck, I just like the look of wood. Contrasting with 2 types of wood is an interesting idea. Also interesting is your suggestion about inserting some hard wood at the back of the baffle. Might be good with a second piece at the back of the cabinet sides as well. I’ll have to think about this some. Hmmm…

[moreants]

Interesting. Got any more info on finishing wood with auto paints? Could be very, very nice, I’d think.

This project used Rustoleum Sandable primer for autos (Lowes/Menards)and Duplicolor Truck/Van Dark Garnet Red acrylic lacquer (Auto parts store). Lots of sanding and buffing but well worth it. Couldn't find rottenstone so I tried Softscrub and it worked. Aspirator is a must.

Good article on lacquer finishing-

http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/finish11.shtml

[mmoeller]

This project used Rustoleum Sandable primer for autos (Lowes/Menards)and Duplicolor Truck/Van Dark Garnet Red acrylic lacquer (Auto parts store). Lots of sanding and buffing but well worth it. Couldn't find rottenstone so I tried Softsoap and it worked. Aspirator is a must.

Good article on lacquer finishing-

http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/finish11.shtml

That's sweet. They look like a muscle car. You should call them Chevelle's or something. :B

[JonW]

This project used Rustoleum Sandable primer for autos (Lowes/Menards)and Duplicolor Truck/Van Dark Garnet Red acrylic lacquer (Auto parts store). Lots of sanding and buffing but well worth it. Couldn't find rottenstone so I tried Softsoap and it worked. Aspirator is a must.

Wow. 8O Nice work. :T
I could be talked into that. Either a classic shiny black or maybe a fire engine red or something darker red or metallic...
Why add primer and sand that down if you're working with wood and can just sand that down? Maybe to have the paint adhere?

I couldn't find the products you mentioned on the Duplicolor web site. What are all the layers you added on? And how many cans of this stuff did you go through for a pair of speakers?

[moreants]

Wow. 8O Nice work. :T
I could be talked into that. Either a classic shiny black or maybe a fire engine red or something darker red or metallic...
Why add primer and sand that down if you're working with wood and can just sand that down? Maybe to have the paint adhere?

I couldn't find the products you mentioned on the Duplicolor web site. What are all the layers you added on? And how many cans of this stuff did you go through for a pair of speakers?

This is the product i referred to.

http://www.duplicolor.com/products/truckvansuv.html

It comes in larger cans than the car lacquer for some reason and ends up much cheaper. I used 7 cans @ $5.79 for both speakers. Watch the lot codes so you at least end up finishing both with same lot.

Lacquer is great to work with as its much more forgiving than enamel. It also dries in a few minutes meaning less prone to dust and several coats can be put on within 1/2 hour. You need many coats due to the number of sanding steps you will go through to get a proper finish. Lacquer melts into the previous layers rather than building up layers. Most people just spray it on and topcoat with clear lacquer but you don't end up with the classic smooth lacquer look. There aren't any shortcuts and the final sanding/buffing will consume most of a day.

Below is a pic of one of my other projects with black lacquer (American Tradition by Valspar) on front baffle and reverse painted acrylic panel on sides. Also is a factory Kharma showing a lacquer job that is probably out of reach for any diy'er. You can get close but not as perfect as that. Their cab's are finished in Italy I believe.

[Dennis H]

A heat shrink vinyl could wrap up things pretty well. Although I’ve got a strong bias against plastic products on projects like this.

Leather always looks nice. I don't have a lot of experience with it but it's pretty stretchy when it's wet. Talk to an upholstery guy.

[augerpro]

This is the product i referred to.

http://www.duplicolor.com/products/truckvansuv.html

It comes in larger cans than the car lacquer for some reason and ends up much cheaper. I used 7 cans @ $5.79 for both speakers. Watch the lot codes so you at least end up finishing both with same lot.

Lacquer is great to work with as its much more forgiving than enamel. It also dries in a few minutes meaning less prone to dust and several coats can be put on within 1/2 hour. You need many coats due to the number of sanding steps you will go through to get a proper finish. Lacquer melts into the previous layers rather than building up layers. Most people just spray it on and topcoat with clear lacquer but you don't end up with the classic smooth lacquer look. There aren't any shortcuts and the final sanding/buffing will consume most of a day.

Below is a pic of one of my other projects with black lacquer on front baffle and reverse painted acrylic panel on sides. Also is a factory Kharma showing a lacquer job that is probably out of reach for any diy'er. You can get close but not as perfect as that. Their cab's are finished in Italy I believe.

VERY nice! Do you sand between every coat or just after the last one? Also have you ever used Pianolac or any other waterborne lacquer? Do you ever use a gun, if so what kind of gun works best?
Thanks.

[Gir]

For veneering and such, where do you guys buy from?

[nerd of nerds]

For veneering and such, where do you guys buy from?

Yeah, I've been wondering the same thing. Something tells me that the stuff I got at menards for my first speakers a few years back was a complete ripoff...

[bob barkto]

The specifics for any one brand of any one compostion of coating can fill many volumes.. and then the next guy will come along with yet another technique!

But to oversimplify:Z

Color coats or paints of most any type need a smooth base to create a smooth finish. Color coats are not designed to fill scratches or seal porous materials. In fact they tend to accentuate these surface conditions.

So..

For an opaque color finish (notice I didn't mention gloss level) with no grain or surface texture showing through we need a minimum of sealer/surfacer/filler/primer then color coat.

Sealer keeps the pore and texture filling surfacer/filler from absorbing into the wood, and primer provides an easily sandable and suitably smooth surface for the color coat(s) to adhere to.

All this can be done in 1 or 10 steps or more, depending... but it must be done before we apply color!

Some color coats must be topcoated with a clear coat for durability (most automotive urethanes). Some can stand alone (most lacquers and enamels and some automotive urethanes). Some can go either way and it becomes more an esthetic and/or durability decision.

It might be best to think backwards. What is the desired finish character I'm after? What tools and skills do I have? How motivated am I? Then pick the coating accordingly.

Wow. 8O Nice work. :T
I could be talked into that. Either a classic shiny black or maybe a fire engine red or something darker red or metallic...
Why add primer and sand that down if you're working with wood and can just sand that down? Maybe to have the paint adhere?

I couldn't find the products you mentioned on the Duplicolor web site. What are all the layers you added on? And how many cans of this stuff did you go through for a pair of speakers?

[moreants]

Leather always looks nice. I don't have a lot of experience with it but it's pretty stretchy when it's wet. Talk to an upholstery guy.

Below are couple of leather (actually vinyl) ones I've done.

VERY nice! Do you sand between every coat or just after the last one? Also have you ever used Pianolac or any other waterborne lacquer? Do you ever use a gun, if so what kind of gun works best?
Thanks.

I sand after priming and final coat. Used only rattle cans. Never used Pianolac.

[BobEllis]

PianoLac works very well, IF you are competent with a spray gun and have a decent rig. It took me quite a while to get acceptable results with my gun, but once I got the hang of it it was beautiful. The latest formulation is as black as traditional black nitrocellulose lacquer.

Even with a good smooth spray application, be prepared for a lot of work getting the gloss up to its potential. The finish is very hard and it takes a power polisher. Almost any good gloss finish will take a lot of elbow grease, PianoLac takes a bit less for me than traditional spray paints.

Just a happy customer, no affiliation with PianoLac.

[Amphiprion]

I'd just take it to an auto body repair shop. They might be able to work out any imperfections in the surface for you and then put on a heck of a nice finish. It'll be pricey though.

[augerpro]

PianoLac works very well, IF you are competent with a spray gun and have a decent rig. It took me quite a while to get acceptable results with my gun, but once I got the hang of it it was beautiful. The latest formulation is as black as traditional black nitrocellulose lacquer.

Even with a good smooth spray application, be prepared for a lot of work getting the gloss up to its potential. The finish is very hard and it takes a power polisher. Almost any good gloss finish will take a lot of elbow grease, PianoLac takes a bit less for me than traditional spray paints.

Just a happy customer, no affiliation with PianoLac.

Thanks Bob. One last question: if I use Titebond to apply the veneer will using a waterbased lacquer like Pianolac cause teh veneer to lift?

[hongrn]

I just finished the cabs on these towers using black glossy formica.

Hong

[BobEllis]

Thanks Bob. One last question: if I use Titebond to apply the veneer will using a waterbased lacquer like Pianolac cause the veneer to lift?

It shouldn't - you won't be saturating the veneer if you spray properly. I doubt that it would cause a problem anyway.

[cjd]

I really like the plain birch ply... at least, enough that I've used it a few times.

[JonW]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the further thoughts. I’ve got some time now to look at your comments in detail. I think my 3 favorite options right now are auto paint, leaving the BB ply natural with only oil-based poly, or maybe try and red and/or blue dye on the BB ply (maybe one for baffle, one for the rest) then follow with oil-based poly. But really, I’m not sure.

Moreants-
Wow. Very nice work. :T You’ve got serious skill in this department. And thanks for all the details. I’ll look into the Duplicolor/auto paint thing.

Dennis-
Yeah, leather could look nice. Not sure it’s for me, but it could be. I’ll have to think about this.

Gir and Nerd of Nerds-
For veneer, I’ve bought mine from:

http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/

It’s been fine, but I don’t have much experience with this.

It might be best to think backwards. What is the desired finish character I'm after? What tools and skills do I have? How motivated am I? Then pick the coating accordingly.

Bob-
Thanks for the tips. :T That all makes sense. But I’m not sure what I’m after. Trying to find something interesting. I like regular wood/veneer the most, but it won’t work for this particular project. So I’m trying to figure out what my next-best option is.

Mark-
Idunno. This whole project is DIY, so I can’t bring myself to pay someone to do part of it. I’m a snob, I guess.

Hong-
Looks very nice. :T

Chris-
Yes, very nice. As I showed in the photos in post #7, keeping the natural birch ply is definitely an option for me. Looks like you used a black due once. I’ve been thinking about a red dye for the front baffle and a blue dye for the rest of the cabinet. Then add poly. Could look good. But also could be also look cheesy and I’d get sick of looking at it soon.

[Gir]

Gir and Nerd of Nerds-
For veneer, I’ve bought mine from:

http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/

It’s been fine, but I don’t have much experience with this.

Thanks for the link, it's looks quite promising!

[JonW]

Thanks for the link, it's looks quite promising!

I used the bubble free veneer (it's their exclusive product) and contact cement. It worked fine. I think it was Jim Holtz who suggested it. But I'm going to try to avoid the cement fumes next time and go for regular paper backed veneer and then iron on PVA glue. We'll see how that goes.

[dlneubec]

I used the bubble free veneer (it's their exclusive product) and contact cement. It worked fine. I think it was Jim Holtz who suggested it. But I'm going to try to avoid the cement fumes next time and go for regular paper backed veneer and then iron on PVA glue. We'll see how that goes.

Jon,

FYI, I used the 22.2mil BFV veneer on my Mentor omni project and instead of standard contact cement, I tired water based contact cement. Two coats on the mdf and two on the veneer back with about 30 minutes in between. It worked like a charm and it was all done indoors with very little odor to speak of.

[Gir]

I used the bubble free veneer (it's their exclusive product) and contact cement. It worked fine. I think it was Jim Holtz who suggested it. But I'm going to try to avoid the cement fumes next time and go for regular paper backed veneer and then iron on PVA glue. We'll see how that goes.

Do you have to treat it with anything or is it just peel and glue? Sorry that these questions seem mildly retarded 8O

[JonW]

Jon,

FYI, I used the 22.2mil BFV veneer on my Mentor omni project and instead of standard contact cement, I tired water based contact cement. Two coats on the mdf and two on the veneer back with about 30 minutes in between. It worked like a charm and it was all done indoors with very little odor to speak of.

I see. Didn't even know that was an option- excellent.
The cement fumes didn't bother me in the short term. But I had to do the work indoors (it was cold out). And I just worry about long-term health effects.

Do you have to treat it with anything or is it just peel and glue? Sorry that these questions seem mildly retarded 8O

Hey, you've got to learn these things some day. No, not peel and glue. You buy separate cement and brush it on. A coat on each surface, let it dry (30-45 min), add second coat, put them together, press a lot. It's similar (or maybe identical) to the rubber cement you used back in school. Don't do it inside, though- the fumes can be bad when working on speaker-sized pieces.

EDIT: You've got to let the second coat of cement dry before putting the 2 pieces together. Sorry fro getting to say that.

[PMazz]

A peel & stick backing is available. It works like the old contact paper, with pressure sensitive adhesive. I would use a sealer on raw MDF first.

Pete

[cameronthorne]

Wow, you guys are all really an inspiration to me. I have no woodworking experience, but from what I've seen of your projects, so far my favorites are the natural BB ply with oil-urethane finish, the truck bed liner, and I do really like the high-gloss fire truck red auto paint idea, like the Meridian DSP8000 speakers. That really makes a statement.

Remember when Martin Logan used to offer color aniline dyed wood inserts for the frames of their ESL speakers? Has anyone here worked with aniline dyes before? Does it require hardwood, or could it also be applied to BB ply? I like the idea of preserving the woodgrain, but still adding color.

[bob barkto]

I use dyes extensively.
Hardwoods do respond the best. Birch is a hardwood and works very well.

The edges however might get a bit intense with the contrasting stripes resulting from the edge grain/end grain.

Sometimes a pre-stain treatment on problem areas like that will help. Have to be careful using dyes over such as the color won't penetrate as well and could end up much lighter than on the flat surfaces. Best to test on a scrap piece first.

...
Has anyone here worked with aniline dyes before? Does it require hardwood, or could it also be applied to BB ply? I like the idea of preserving the woodgrain, but still adding color.

[cameronthorne]

I was browsing around Home Depot's lumber department last night. What is the difference between the "classic birch ply" they offer, and baltic birch that I see mentioned here? I have seen "apple ply" mentioned on some other DIY sites also - what is that?

-- Cameron

[---k---]

Every HD is differnt in what they carry, so I can't say for sure what you saw. But in general there are two kinds of Birch Ply typically seen. HD usually sells a 7-layer ply. It is nice fancy birch on the outside with lesser grade in the middle. Then, there is a Birch 13-layer that is refered to as "void-free". It is much more solid, and is prefered.

I've payed ~$60 for a 4'x8' and a 5'x5' of the 13-layer, and $37 for the 7-layer (I used it for bracing and stuff, it is a little lighter). It is probably easiest to know what you're getting based on the price.

If you do a search, the topic was been discussed endlessly at one point.

[cameronthorne]

Ryan,

If you do a search, the topic was been discussed endlessly at one point.

Found it. Thanks!

I have at all figured out now.

-- Cameron