What if the Wavecor Ardent and Natalie P had a "love child"?

[JonMarsh]

They were 100$ each Australian, which is worth about 2/3 of a US dollar. Shipping on top of that is not trivial- it's about as far way from here as you can get, unless you count Antarctica!

[technodanvan]

FYI, saw this link pop up on the MAC/DIY forum. I requested a quote for a dozen, dunno if they go that small but we'll find out.

https://www.micro-semiconductor.com/...ss-by-Tymphany

[JonMarsh]

Well, that's pretty interesting... maybe they would be the worlds only viable distributor for Peerless drivers, if they have hundreds on hand in stock!

[Scareurpasenger]

No luck after digging through each distributor worldwide. I decided to contact them directly to see if they know where inventory might reside.

[Scareurpasenger]

Well the sale pushed me over. Ordered the rest of the drivers to complete a Natalie P ultra BE using t34a tweeters. Planning on a bit of time off from work and will spend some time on speakers projects along with some house upgrades and building a chainsaw for some diy lumber.

The differences are relatively simple to account for- a slightly lower breakup mode peak frequency (29kHz instead of 31kHz) and a top end that is softer by about 2dB above 5-6 kHz. Some may even prefer that...

As I have both types on hand, checking the design characteristics will not be challenging in the least...

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, I'll say that a crossover with the T34A-4 would be loosely based on the Isiris version, but with adjustments due to differences in baffle- same 1800Hz crossover. I have a test baffle the right size, originally started for the T25B-6, I'll just do a "mod" on that to be able to mount the T34A-4, and will cross check a late SN T34B-4, too.

[Bear]

I'll toss a +1 for interest on the T34A version. 😎 I'd be curious about what a 2.5 way / 2x2 version might be like, but I expect that's the "Y in DIY" answer. 😅

[Scareurpasenger]

Well, I located some da25tx00-08 tweeters second hand. There are enough possibilities that I felt it was worth grabbing them.

I can’t wait to the see the winning combo.

[JonMarsh]

Obviously I'd agree that's a smart move!

[JonMarsh]

well, I sure wish I was finishing up some other stuff faster so I could get back to this. But "in other news, but related", I'm giving serious consideration to another variant, with the same woofers, henceforth to be known as the "Natalie C3PO" due to the configuration changes being considered.

This is a tie in to the ET CCTT project that I've been "assisting" with, and listening to, and noting some interesting levels of subjective quality with the two PuriFi PTT8.0X04-NAB woofers and the Tang Band W6-2313 coaxial driver. It took a bit of work to get there, and the interesting question is, would the subjective characteristics be transferable to a conventionally oriented speaker on tallish stands? The W6-2313 has a very smooth bamboo cone woofer element, and the tweeter is very well behaved also. And it's a coax, but not with a steep waveguide cone- a relatively shallow one. This seems to result in improved subjective as well as objective characteristics compared to all other's I've measured.

So, given how well the RSS210HF works (apart from efficiency, you can't do anything about Hoffman's Iron law), I'm wondering if combining those with the TangBand coax might have some similar "magic" in a more conventional application.

Two LF alignments have been enumerated to consider the possibilities in 48L- a sealed configuration and a passive radiator configuration using just one RSS265PR or the newer version of the Seas SL26R, if you like shiny silver cones better!






With 100W of power at 8 ohms, 104 dB is achievable sealed, 108 for the PR configuration.

This also brought to mind the Minerva project, and today I ordered another W6-2313 driver, to consider first testing in a Minerva configuration with the Wavecor 223BD02, as that enclosure already exists.

Today I'm updating the midrange crossover on the CC, and evaluating the results.

[Hdale85]

This sounds interesting. Originally before settling on building some speakers I was looking at Elac and KEF speakers that use coaxial drivers for small 3 ways. Although that center that you helped with is a bit too large for my setup I think....lol Well I'd have to remove the TV stand I guess, which is technically doable as the TV is mounted on the wall above it BUT then I don't know where to put my 4k blu-ray player and receiver....

[Bear]

The PR really helps with the low end with no volume penalty. Looks great!

[technodanvan]

Jon, I've been breaking down all the new sheet goods for the SMJ-40PE and Crescendos...and have a fair amount left. I was reviewing this thread and thought I might cut down the remaining sheets for two or three of the version using the Peerless corundum tweeter. I know you have a dozen (or probably many more) fires burning you have to keep under control, but I was curious where these stand in the order of operations.

[Steve Manning]

Jon, I've been breaking down all the new sheet goods for the SMJ-40PE and Crescendos...and have a fair amount left. I was reviewing this thread and thought I might cut down the remaining sheets for two or three of the version using the Peerless corundum tweeter. I know you have a dozen (or probably many more) fires burning you have to keep under control, but I was curious where these stand in the order of operations.

Danny, just to let you know that tweeter is no longer available, unless you want a 1000 of them. That's the minimum order these days!

[theSven]

Very upsetting that they are selling in that large of bulk. Can we not get Parts Express to help the DIY community? Otherwise I guess we have to round up enough people to put in an order...

[JonMarsh]

I would describe the situation as this- Peerless made a conscious decision for ALL of their products to not support distributors EXCEPT for OEM business- larger volume producers. For whatever reasons, I think they don't want their stuff showing up in DIY builds, or perhaps their main customers don't want that happening, either in DIY or low volume producers

[technodanvan]

I know, I only have 3 of them!

[Scareurpasenger]

I tracked down 3 pairs second hand. Enough that I also plan on building the calliope as well.

[theSven]

The Calliope are my daily listener when I'm around the house. You will LOVE them!

[JonMarsh]

Congratulations! They're not easy to find, as you well know at this point!

[JonMarsh]

Jon, I've been breaking down all the new sheet goods for the SMJ-40PE and Crescendos...and have a fair amount left. I was reviewing this thread and thought I might cut down the remaining sheets for two or three of the version using the Peerless corundum tweeter. I know you have a dozen (or probably many more) fires burning you have to keep under control, but I was curious where these stand in the order of operations.

I find that if I try to multi-task too much, everything bogs down- so at this point, the SMJ-40/Saint-Saens is the focus of effort until I have a stereo set that I'm happy with. Did some organizing work on that yesterday, even verifying the wood parts that have been cut, including the LF cabinet side braces, and materials on hand for the horizontal braces.

Now, with regards to this puppy, I do have some cabinet parts cut. But not assembled. OTOH, the POC evaluation shown above is based on pretty accurate measurements and modeling, and I rather doubt there will be any significant changes. So, a brave enterprising DIY guy could actually beat me to the punch on these...

This Sunday morning, I'm doing continuing engineer for a PM inquiry regarding construction documents for the Wavecor Ardent, and doing a review of the version with 12MU4731 SS midrange, as that is actually available from Madisound again, (used for Renron's "budget build"), and doing a crossover review with the SS D3004/6640 which also seems to be available again- and can be sub'd with a Satori TW29B-B with ferrite magnet if one is hell bend on "saving" money....

I've seriously screwed up, I realize, because I haven't sucked in and trained any "junior engineers" to help with this stuff! And I spent much of last week on stuff related to my old job, including a 9 hour forum with the guys back in HQ, and some follow up with the VP of the SiC team, including Webex call and more review.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it... for now. The other competing priority is helping ET with the Kii inspired small tower, destined to go in the living room here... But I can demote the priority for that...

[technodanvan]

No rush at all Jon! Like I said, I know you've got plenty going on and each has a set priority level.

I've seriously screwed up, I realize, because I haven't sucked in and trained any "junior engineers" to help with this stuff!

When is the Jon Marsh School of Speaker Design opening?

[JonMarsh]

Why, Technodanvan, it's been open here at HT Guide for over 20 years! That's why I make a point of showing how the sausage is ground! Of course, you may not prefer my favorite German sausages... for some, an acquired taste!

[TNRRClassic]

I like the performance of the RSS210/265/315 drivers. I've used them in some subwoofer builds, and they performed well. That makes this design pretty interesting, despite the efficiency challenges.

I just want to make sure I'm clear on the tweeter situation, though. It looks like there are three options. We can spend $50k (maybe we can get a discount on 1000 units so maybe less) and go with the da25tx00-08 from a reputable dealer, try to buy a few units from the Hong Kong outlets that seem sort of sketchy, or go with the T34A, a driver I'm not familiar with that costs $300 or so each?

This reminds me of the Modula NeoDCC. Fortunately, I bought a bunch of the little Vifa tweeters before I started building any of those, since they were discontinued.

Maybe we'll see a few of the Peerless tweeters show up at some point as somebody finishes up projects and has a supply left over.

ETA: I need to build another MTM like I need another hole in my head...

[Scareurpasenger]

The Hong Kong sources are a bust. I tried that already.

[JonMarsh]

Well, the tweeter situation isn't quite that desperate as per sources. And I have a couple of alternatives from SB Acoustics that I want to finish re-testing soon...

I'm sitting on a small stock of DA25's, but they were bought mainly to be sure I had re-sale capability to Sven, as he had expressed strong interest early to me privately. A number of these came from Austrailia - some are one's I've been "hoarding".

I do have a preference for finding the best $300 tweeter that $50 or $60 will buy... I'm getting kind of sick of seeing some of my old favorites rising up to $500 or more. (my SS 7140's are now worth over $700 each!) While I do like the TW29B-B Ferrite that I have, the SB26CDC-C000-4 is much more interesting as a value proposition leader, considering the extended response, it's usability with the phase shield removed and an appropriate ultrasonic notch filter employed, and the low Fs and relatively long linear travel of 1.2 mm. HD3 is quite low, and HD2 is 10-20 dB lower than the Be dome products, on average, that cost 5x as much!

[Scareurpasenger]

I may have an extra pair of the da25 if anyone wants a pair. They are used but I can run a dats sweep to make sure they are in good order.

[JonMarsh]

Why don't you run those DATs sweeps and let me know- and what you're asking for them.

[Hdale85]

The Natalie C3PO's sound quite interesting to me lol. Although might be out of budget for now, not sure what the total driver costs would be at that point, I guess a mid/tweeter for a bit over $200 isn't really that bad when you think about it.

[TNRRClassic]

Out of curiosity, has there been any further progress on this design, potential tweeter options, or similar designs from other projects/threads?

[technodanvan]

Jon's been busy hacking away at the SMJ-40 design for a few months now and it's really starting to come together. I don't know what he has next on his build/design schedule though (other than a gazebo). If you are looking for something in the interim, I believe there are a few variations of the Natalie P on this site that might fit the bill depending on tweeter availability in your area.

I'm sure Jon will chime in when he's able.

[JonMarsh]

well, I sure wish I was finishing up some other stuff faster so I could get back to this. But "in other news, but related", I'm giving serious consideration to another variant, with the same woofers, henceforth to be known as the "Natalie C3PO" due to the configuration changes being considered.

This is a tie in to the ET CCTT project that I've been "assisting" with, and listening to, and noting some interesting levels of subjective quality with the two PuriFi PTT8.0X04-NAB woofers and the Tang Band W6-2313 coaxial driver. It took a bit of work to get there, and the interesting question is, would the subjective characteristics be transferable to a conventionally oriented speaker on tallish stands? The W6-2313 has a very smooth bamboo cone woofer element, and the tweeter is very well behaved also. And it's a coax, but not with a steep waveguide cone- a relatively shallow one. This seems to result in improved subjective as well as objective characteristics compared to all other's I've measured.

So, given how well the RSS210HF works (apart from efficiency, you can't do anything about Hoffman's Iron law), I'm wondering if combining those with the TangBand coax might have some similar "magic" in a more conventional application.

Two LF alignments have been enumerated to consider the possibilities in 48L- a sealed configuration and a passive radiator configuration using just one RSS265PR or the newer version of the Seas SL26R, if you like shiny silver cones better!






With 100W of power at 8 ohms, 104 dB is achievable sealed, 108 for the PR configuration.

This also brought to mind the Minerva project, and today I ordered another W6-2313 driver, to consider first testing in a Minerva configuration with the Wavecor 223BD02, as that enclosure already exists.

Today I'm updating the midrange crossover on the CC, and evaluating the results.

thinking about this still, when I finish up the Saint-Saens build, but also considering a slender smaller variant, using the Coax and the SB-160 Peerless- have another 10 of those incoming.

Of course, another thing feasible would be mating the Saint-Saens bottom end to the Tangband coax. PE has about 40 of those left, and I have one here for experimentation... plus the one in my own ET CCT.

But I owe Steve a nominal two way with the X04 Purifi, and am pondering a couple of tweeter paths, including the DXT, but also the PT2522 MOD302A+. Different applications might favor one over the other... oh, and lets see if we can't get some PRs in their somewhere, too- have a bunch of SB Oval ones.

[Scareurpasenger]

So, I am getting close to complete on the rs150 speakers. I was thinking about starting on the enclosure for these next since I have the rss210hfs, passive radiator and the da25. I also have the t34a tweeters I could use if they are better performers.

What are the chances of having a crossover design for these in the next 3-4 months?

[JonMarsh]

Three to four months is pretty good- three to four weeks would be terrible! (Gazebo build starting next week- 58 page manual- a bazillion parts- will have to hire neighbors or husbands of Liubov's friends for the final steps (raising the roof, literally).

Now, I have to temper that, but note that I think I can persuade ET to publish his POC crossover using the combination of baffle simulation and QNF measurements, but not measured on a specific cabinet, but very close.. And this may sound weird, but I recommend the DA25TX- it's a stupendous value, comparable to that of the OEM priced FSL-0512R01-08. (as used in Kii Audio speakers). I'm hoping to finally finish the Kurosawa build next year, and will mostly likely replace the Accuton midrange with the Peerless if I can adapt it physically.

Now, the "real" monster build or love child might be a three way with the FSL-0512 as the midrange. The crossover would cost more than the drivers, of course- three ways are not inexpensive. That's another item on the winter list of concept engineering.

A reminder about the measured quasi-near-field response of the FSL-0512...





You can see that crossover points of 300-400Hz and 2000-2500 Hz would be a cake walk.

And another reminder- by QNF I mean just close enough that the baffle step of the test enclosure does not come into play- but NOT the sort of near field measurements some folks do with the mic just an inch or two from the driver. This is more realistic, the right distance to integrate the forward response so that the correlation to true infinite baffle is quite good. Note, the driver impedance curve is fairly flat form 150Hz to 3kHz; between 8 and 12 ohms. And half space sensitivity for 1W at 1m is 91 dB, quite reasonable for a true 8 ohm driver.

[Scareurpasenger]

Now, the "real" monster build or love child might be a three way with the FSL-0512 as the midrange. The crossover would cost more than the drivers, of course- three ways are not inexpensive. That's another item on the winter list of concept engineering.

A reminder about the measured quasi-near-field response of the FSL-0512...





You can see that crossover points of 300-400Hz and 2000-2500 Hz would be a cake walk.

And another reminder- by QNF I mean just close enough that the baffle step of the test enclosure does not come into play- but NOT the sort of near field measurements some folks do with the mic just an inch or two from the driver. This is more realistic, the right distance to integrate the forward response so that the correlation to true infinite baffle is quite good. Note, the driver impedance curve is fairly flat form 150Hz to 3kHz; between 8 and 12 ohms. And half space sensitivity for 1W at 1m is 91 dB, quite reasonable for a true 8 ohm driver.

Now that is quite tempting! I was very tempted to build the Wavecore ardent using the da25tx but didn't want to invest in the Wavecore and midrange drivers when I already had the rss210hfs. Buying a pair of FSL-0512 is a pretty easy decision considering the price to value as you mentioned. I don't mind making this a learning opportunity and taking a pass at a design with some feedback.

[JonMarsh]

Cool beans, as Steve would say- I’ll bump that to the top for concept engineering work, maybe I should get ET involved… And partially to support that idea, I did buy another 8 of the FSL a couple of months ago, above what I previously had, just in case there was interest in this idea and more conventional sources dried up. Like the SBS160’s I recently acquired from a vendor in the Netherlands

[technodanvan]

What are the SBS woofers for Jon? I thought you were leaning towards the Epique for the Kii-style speakers.

[JonMarsh]

I was, until I found another source of the SBS160's. I already had enough for one set, but I wanted to know if others good get them, so I "tested" this vendor. And when the price difference is nearly 4x, well, it's an easy choice for what this project needs.

[technodanvan]

The RSS210HF is on sale at the moment at Parts Express for $114.98.

They are now down to $97.49, and if you're handy you may or may not be able to acquire a 10+% coupon to tack on as well. Unknown how long the current sale will last...

https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-RSS210HF-4-8-Reference-Series-HF-Subwoofer-4-Ohm-295-456?quantity=1

[Evil Twin]

In the interest of facilitating potential cost comparisons, such as with a 3 way using the same RS210HF and DA25TX tweeter, here is the POC crossover concept, based on the previously discussed measurements, and the response analysis.










and a reverse null connection check...




I would expect the crossover for a three way system to not be too dissimilar on a cost basis to the Wavecor Ardent version with Sanspeak 12MU and the DA25TX.







However, due to the higher impedance of the FSL-0512 midrange, the impedance curve should be more benign in the 500Hz to 4kHz area.

[Scareurpasenger]

Thank you ET. This certainly helps understand the investment side of the ROI. I would love hear your thoughts on the quality improvements adding a mid to the design makes and how this might line up with the performance of the Wavecore ardent. I know this is purely speculative but it would certainly help understand the different options discussed.

[Evil Twin]

Two fundamental "advantages" of a three way system (if executed successfully) are reduced intermodulation distortion between the bass and midrange, and the potential for achieving a more consistent room power response, as one would not be using the woofer in the upper range where even if well behaved, the polar response can be expected to decrease simply due to the size of the radiating driver surface. Also, many woofers of 8" size and larger have increasing distortion with rising frequency, due to inductivity modulation from rising impedance and lack of attention to the impact of well designed Faraday rings in the gap.

Now, as far as the RSS210HF is concerned, the behavior is exemplary for a driver of this size... other wise considering it for a two way would be most unwise. But one can argue from measured results that it is better suited to a two way than the RS180 used in the NatalieP.

HD2 does steadily decline, and while HD3 remains flat out until about 1400Hz when resonance amplification of distortion products occurs due to the breakup mode at about 4700 Hz (exceptionally high frequency and narrow in scope for an 8" woofer), it should be noted that at this drive level of 2.83VRMS into a 4 ohm load (2 watts) the HD3 level from 70 Hz to 1400Hz is quite low, at almost -60 dB.

At some point I should "coerce" Jonmarsh to fire up his Audio Precsion APx555 and conduct some IM measurements, but I understand that he has been unusally busy of late, and now even has an architectural construction project of a sort to deal with.

Moving on to the midrange driver, I must agree that the value proposition is "interesting, most interesting", as this quasi near field measurement shows...




In a more ideal universe, with a better Faraday ring implementation, the HD3 should be somewhat lower, matching the RSS210HF, but lacking any significant focused upper breakup mode, the relative lack of resonance amplification of distortion products and the clean transfer function to about 5kHz are most interesting for achieving promising subjective results- but no guarantee- more details have to be satisfied for a three way crossover implementation.

At a more "conventioanal" measurement distance in this smallish test enclosure, the polar response and contributions of the enclosure baffle can be observed...



This measurement suggests that a crossover point around 1800Hz to 2kHz for the midrange might be optimal...

An impedance plot in the test enclosure does not reveal any issues of concern...





Now, a three way design can often be a wrestling match between the driver potential and its drawbacks, and addressing them in the crossover design with care. This measurement of the Scanspeak 12mu highlights the challenges in comparison to the FSL-0512-RO1. The 12MU has good polar characteristics, and with care in the crossover was found to be quite useful in a less expensive Ardent design than the Accuton C79. However, it was not a trivial effort.




The Illuminator series motor used in the 12mu-4731 has a strong reputation, and the factory response curve on an infinite baffle is quite promising- as well it should be, for the current price of about $325. Of course, I can recall more than one case in which the factory response curve is not easily approximated in a typical enclosure, due both to baffle step issues and diffraction.





The approximately $300 difference in price can pay for a lot of crossover components- and yet, I expect the optimum crossover for the FSL-0512R01 to be simpler and less expensive.

I trust that this disclosure grants you useful information to ponder in making your choice...

[TNRRClassic]

So despite not yet having a pair the tweeters, I figured I might start sourcing crossover components for the 2 way. It always takes some effort to find all the values, and I realize there's a good liklihood they might get tweaked a little. On to my question. I've always used Mills resistors, even in the NeoD CC where the original design used Dayton resistors. However, I've been thinking about trying Jantzen Superes resistors this time. Has anyone tried them and formed an opinion? I'd be using decent capacitors, but not the highest end, so I'd like to keep everything to a good standard.

[Scareurpasenger]

Thank you! I am still very interested in the 3 way and might even build the mtm as well. I will take a pass and mockup some construction in fusion and share here for critique.

[JonMarsh]

Sounds like a good way to start to me! You should be able to export STEP files from Fusion (I have had a Fusion license several times, but dropped it after working with Shapr3D for a while) and I can import and review...

[JonMarsh]

So despite not yet having a pair the tweeters, I figured I might start sourcing crossover components for the 2 way. It always takes some effort to find all the values, and I realize there's a good liklihood they might get tweaked a little. On to my question. I've always used Mills resistors, even in the NeoD CC where the original design used Dayton resistors. However, I've been thinking about trying Jantzen Superes resistors this time. Has anyone tried them and formed an opinion? I'd be using decent capacitors, but not the highest end, so I'd like to keep everything to a good standard.

My resistor brands of favor, considering both performance and cost, have been Mills, Mundorf (the 20W leaded ones) and the relatively new 20W Dayton parts, which looks a bit like their efforts to clone the Mundorf. I have purchased the Jantzen Superes parts occasionally, but the limited range of available values and lack of power rating over 10 watts have deterred me from much use.

[TNRRClassic]

My resistor brands of favor, considering both performance and cost, have been Mills, Mundorf (the 20W leaded ones) and the relatively new 20W Dayton parts, which looks a bit like their efforts to clone the Mundorf. I have purchased the Jantzen Superes parts occasionally, but the limited range of available values and lack of power rating over 10 watts have deterred me from much use.

I was thinking of doubling the values and running them in parallel (the values I'd need to do that for the XO above happen to be available), given that two of the 10 watt Jantzen Superes would still be cheaper than a single 12 watt Mills. I just wasn't sure about the sound or how they hold up over time. I haven't tried the MResist Supreme Mundorf resistors because of the price, but compared to doubling Mills, they aren't a bad deal.

As an aside, is the XO optimized for the sealed, ported, or passive radiator version?

[JonMarsh]

The crossover shown is from the Wavecor ardent with the midrange and tweeter mods. The dual RSS210HF would be close to the same impedance, two 4 ohm drivers wired in series, and the impedance humps of the version with PR should not influence the crossover range.

[Scareurpasenger]

I ordered a few pairs of the FSL-0512-RO1 while they were still available and at $10 they were not a large investment!

The enclosure design is next up but I must also use some of my time to build a few cabinets for the laundry room and trim some windows.

[JonMarsh]

Slow work definitely takes time- there have been so many other tasks these last two weeks, things like optical appointments for myself and wife, ordering glasses, special shopping trips, etc. And while I'm trying to stay focused on just a one or two projects, Steve and Sven keep bringing me some questions... and some days lately I've just been getting bombarded with messages and phone calls- which is a GOOD thing, but at the end of the day, I wonder where my time went! And my circadian rhythm is still tuned to when I was working, so it's not like I'm not getting an early start!

🤔

[Steve Manning]

Slow work definitely takes time- there have been so many other tasks these last two weeks, things like optical appointments for myself and wife, ordering glasses, special shopping trips, etc. And while I'm trying to stay focused on just a one or two projects, Steve and Sven keep bringing me some questions... and some days lately I've just been getting bombarded with messages and phone calls- which is a GOOD thing, but at the end of the day, I wonder where my time went! And my circadian rhythm is still tuned to when I was working, so it's not like I'm not getting an early start!

🤔

That's it blame it on Steve and Sven .....

[JonMarsh]

That's it blame it on Steve and Sven .....

Hah Hah! Don't forget! Key word: "Subwoofer".

And I can offer documentary evidence!!

But it's not just you two, important as you are...

😂

[theSven]

Progress is progress none the less...