Now an Ardent P CC may become a reality...

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    Now an Ardent P CC may become a reality...

    This is an idea that has been asked for previously, based on the Wavecor Ardent, and with driver availability in flux or downright disappearing, seemed unlikely to be realized. The introduction of the PuriFi PTT8.0X04 raised hopes for a new generation of Ardent (if anyone is interested!) and it may be ironic if the first testing of the waters of that idea ends up being for a CC prototype system.

    Now, an interesting thing about the PuriFi, is that the frame diameter is more than a skosh similar to the Wavecor SW223BD02. In fact, 223mm versus 221 mm. Of course, the major blocking point has been GETTING any of the PuriFi parts- I ordered mine the beginning of June, through the web store instead of an advanced sample pre-order as I've done in the past for the original 6.5" woofer and the 6.5" midrange. At the same time, I ordered the ultra low midrange distortion 6.5" aluminum woofer- those came pretty quickly, but with all the work going on, are still sitting in a storage bin. THEY are a good candidate for a compact CC, too.


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    But you know that old saying,

    Some's good, more's better, and too much is just enough...

    That kind of thinking is at the core of wretched excess, right? Though when you look around at what has been happening in the high end business the last 5-10 years, there's no way the DIY crowd can really qualify any more for "wretched excess"- Magico, Tidal, Wilson, and many others have us pretty well outclassed.

    But!

    Today I got an email from PuriFi, and my 8 PTT8.0X04 drivers have shipped today from Denmark... and the shipper email says that they will deliver on Thursday, Sept 15!

    Talk about being stunned, you could have knocked me over with a feather! But, it is an odd thing I've found on a few occasions that I can get stuff from the EU and the UK faster than from Canada.


    🤷

    I'm not complaining, believe me!

    It did make me get out a copy of Unibox (remember, I'm kinda retro) and re-check what a pair might do in the classic series configuration in a CC... they might do just fine, it turns out.

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    ​​​​​​​1W sensitivity with two wired in series calculates as expected, and is in a good range.

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    Of course, we're all probably more interested in what is possible if you push them- I've been using 110 dB as an SPL target at 1 meter for a lot of HT ideas, as this gives necessary SPL in larger listening rooms at the listening position.



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    How hard would the system be working, in terms of the rated Xmax, for an 80Hz crossover with 100W max drive?


    Not all that hard, it turns out...


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    Returning to the baseline principle, of "some's good, more is better, and too much is just enough", I think this will have to be the configuration I build next. Front panel blanks and some other parts are already cut out...


    ​​​​​​​Of course, this leads to the question of how would a "normal" Ardent configuration built with these drivers perform, using the same Faital 5FE120 and BlieSMa T25A-6 or T25B-6 (also on hand)... That will take a bit longer to ascertain, given the current project work underway. But the development work should not be challenging, once the CC is finished.








    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    #2
    I suspected this might happen...

    I've been queried offline about what the chances are of this becoming a "normal" Ardent P speaker design (is that really a "thing"?)

    Something to keep in mind is that the PTT8.0X04 series is a bit of an odd duck compared with their other mid woofer designs. I say that, because it's a bit of a monkey coffin driver, as the old saying goes- a lighter cone in proportion to the Sd, and taken altogether, it likes more volume than you'd expect if you're used to working with their other mid woofers.

    What that means in practice is that an "Ardent P" with extended low frequency performance will be about double the LF volume of the original Wavecor Ardent, and will need to be ported or used with PR's. Of course, it will also have higher sensitivity, won't need as much voltage to get going.


    I'm looking forward to doing my own tests, and have a cabinet with PR for one driver constructed, though nothing loaded in it yet. With the early concerns by some 3rd party testers about soft material/suspension resonances, I'll be looking pretty closely for any aberrant behavior.

    ​​​​​​​Looking at things with Unibox, I think it's possible to get a nice characteristic with two of these in a 75L enclosure, with the right tuning on two 12" RSS315PRs tuned with 2 disks.


    Click image for larger version  Name:	Unibox Design 2xPTT8.0X0404 75L 2xRSS315PR.png Views:	0 Size:	231.8 KB ID:	926391




    With this alignment, in consideration of even just a small amount of boundary wall reinforcement, solid performance down to the LF FB of 28Hz shouldn't be any problem, and the roll off corner should be relatively well damped for a PR alignment.


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    Exploring the feasibility further will likely entail constructing an Ardent style top section to sit on top of the CC POC test cabinet (with that rotated 90 degrees from normal CC orientation). Of course, many midrange and tweeter combinations are possible, but the same parts as planned for the CC ought to produce a fairly high value system design, as regards measured and subjective performance versus cost.







    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15259

      #3
      And now the interesting part of the day starts, with this delivery complete!

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      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15259

        #4
        Those following the genesis of the PTT8.0X04-NAB-01 may recall the test results from some 3rd party vendors showing an impedance irregularity and distortion in the 400Hz area, while HiFi Compass and the factory didn't see this in their measurements.


        A quick check on one sample of the PTT8.0X04-NAB-02 before lunch time is fairly reassuring...


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        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15259

          #5
          I haven't routed either of the two front panel blanks I've cut from maple ply, so I'm going to try to divert one to a test panel for the PTT8.0X04. But I have to concede, after working on the model, though the enclosure volume is fine for the application concept, the front panel area is reminiscent of the concept of 12 gallons in a 10 gallon jar...


          However, I think it will squeak by, and have a dimensioned C size drawing printed out...


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          If I had more maple ply stock on hand, I'd just cut this a bit longer.

          Hmmm, sleek sound bar this won't be... but definitely should be clean!


          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15259

            #6
            Some details about the "12 gallon" front panel


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            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • theSven
              Master of None
              • Jan 2014
              • 855

              #7
              In your signature you have the Calliope CC and Calliope CC Supreme, is this a Supreme build with the 8" Purifi woofers? May need to have you write an article with the different builds and a synopsis of all these 😉. This build looks most interesting with an 8" woofer in a CC and what the tweeter/mid options will be.
              Painter in training

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15259

                #8
                Hey Sven! I'm writing up an email right now about the proposed driver configuration- more specifically for the CC with the 7" ES180TiA or the PTT8.0X04 drivers. There has been an alternate Mid and tweeter configuration for the ES140TiA using SB parts that should perform very nicely but be more cost sensitive, and not play quite as loud... (folks seem to like movies to be loud...- CC has to carry a lot of the wight and maintain clear dialog)

                The "Supreme" is one of those things that ET held a light saber to my neck and said, "Do it... this is the ultimate..."

                It's about as far from a sound bar solution as you can imagine...

                Midrange is an SB Audience (pro series) NERO-6MRN150D- looks more like a miniature version of some Accuton drivers with a massive Neodymium magnet motor- similar to an Accuton C173-6-090, and a flat surround like the Pro Addax drivers I used to work with in the 70's and 80's. Yeah, sort of like going back to my roots, but updated.

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                Yes, I have some on hand.


                The top end would be handled by another SB Audience part, the Bianco 44 PK compression driver,


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                This part is probably the best bang for the buck 1" driver out there, as regards cost/performance ratio. Audio snobs could chose the very good Eighteen Sound NSD-1095 instead, of course, for several times more money.


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                This would be driving my favorite small constant directivity waveguide/horn, the Eighteen Sound XT1086. It's key virtue is dead on tracking of the upper octave versus lower octaves as you go off axis, so the off axis response is very consistent with the on axis, instead of rolling off at the top end. Superior throat design.


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                Woofers could/should be optimized for voltage sensitivity; that could possibly dictate sourcing the 8 ohm version of the PuriFi 8", the PTT8.0X08, and running them in parallel to get 92 dB. OTOH, that's such a small increase over the series connection of the 4 ohm versions, which yields 91 dB, it doesn't really seem worth it to me, which is why I stocked up on the 4 ohm version, also having a PuriFi Ardent in mind in the future- using the same drivers as for the CC (5FE120 and T25A or T25B).

                But the 8 ohm version does seem to have a rather nice distortion spectra, if this wasn't just a golden bullet test sample:

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                However, the 4 ohm version isn't chopped liver, either:


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                In consideration of the current TTC form factor, this was not something I was pushing on Steve... rather ET was pushing it on me- that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! Obviously, this is quite a bit different form factor.












                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15259

                  #9
                  Oh, and one more thing, I can mention, since we're all friends here, right? If you're looking at the compression driver and CD horn and thinking it looks like a bit of overkill for likely crossover points, it's because I'll be trying out a potential type of asymmetric crossover that will require a Z-axis offset on the HF origin, and a bit wider frequency capability due to the crossover filter slope on the HF - 2nd order Bessel.

                  Why? Because, if it works as modeled, it won't have any net phase rotation through the crossover region, will have minimum phase transient response, and low group delay.

                  If, if, if. Many a slip twixt the cup and the lip. But if it looks good in VituixCAD, that usually means I can get it to work in the real world.
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • Steve Manning
                    Moderator
                    • Dec 2006
                    • 1879

                    #10
                    Now this is the money phrase here "It's about as far from a sound bar solution as you can imagine... ​"

                    To put it in perspective, this is on of Wilson Audios CC

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                    The woofers are 7" ..... same goes for Magico. ET's new phrase should be "go big or go home!" 🤣
                    Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                    WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                    Comment

                    • Evil Twin
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 1531

                      #11
                      I find your suggestion....


                      The woofers are 7" ..... same goes for Magico. ET's new phrase should be "go big or go home!" 🤣​
                      Most satisfactory!

                      Though, for a smaller less capable system, the Wilson Audio CC does have attractive esthetics... it would not look out of place in the video room on my Imperial shuttle!
                      DFAL
                      Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                      A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                      Comment

                      • theSven
                        Master of None
                        • Jan 2014
                        • 855

                        #12
                        Thank you for the clarification JonMarsh on the components for the different CC builds. I will get in touch with Steve Manning about getting in the queue for a CC build.
                        Painter in training

                        Comment

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