2021-2023 Isiris Update

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    Today things started coming together - I finished wiring up the extra I/O connectors for the crossover test boards and also finished the setup and configuration for the new test cart with the Earthworks microphone and using Fuzzmeasure, my old favorite, for test software.


    Here's a shot of the cart with the microphone stand in the foreground...


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    It's relatively compact, easy to move around, and follows my traditional signal path, using the Motu interface and its excellent microphone preamp with 48V phantom power running the Earthworks M30.


    Here's a few of the test cabinets with the crossovers connected behind...

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    When the crossovers are "finalized", I'll create a small cabinet for them and an internal wiring setup with a single input connector. Note that I added double thickness riser plates with binding posts on both input and output for these crossover boards, in additional to the Euroterminal connector for I/O.


    ​​​​​​​Here's a view of the full setup under test:



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    Well, how do things look? Or rather that is, test?


    I think some important things were accomplished with this build.


    Today I did tests at the "traditional" 1 meter, which for a speaker this size can present issue of adequate integration of the drivers- that was something I wanted to examine, and did so using a measurement height range of 35" (a low seating position, and obviously quite nearfield!) and an upper position of 48". At a reasonable listening distance, this correlates with much greater extremes of height. So, for a speaker of this size, it's a bit of an acid test, given the driver spacing.

    in the range of +/- 15 degrees in the horizontal axis, there was almost no difference, so I went with on axis for these first checks.

    Half Hamming window was used, with a restricted duration to reduce room interaction on measurements, so the bass range is truncated a bit in measurements.



    47" from floor:

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    35" from floor


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    ​​​​​​​Something I noticed right away is that the value of L9 is probably actually off in spite of the LCR meter checks, because wiht the 3uF parallel cap, the notch should be tuned to 31kHz, but it's more like 28-29 kHz here. So L9 needs to be tweaked.


    ​​​​​​​But considering the measurement distance and the change in vertical angle, things look pretty good, though with the T34B-4 tweeter I am seeing the slight rise in the top end for the higher "elevation" measurement which I expected based on differences between the T34A and T34B data sheets. However, the driver integration looks quite good as regards the crossover point, and a quick check produced deep nulls with reverse phase. Note, the ripples in the midrange appear to be due to cabinet diffraction, and are quite sensitive in location and level with different heights. The 37" off the floor measurement was the worst.


    Two comments about "off axis".

    With a 1m measurement distance and a measurement height of 37", one is actually getting fairly off axis on the T34B, sitting up there at about 60" above the floor. A 1" tweeter would certainly do better, but not have the dynamic range and low distortion of the T34 series.



    Now, what about off axis? +/- 30 degrees looks pretty good, but as you approach 40 degrees, the limitations of the midrange driver come into play... as well as the 34mm tweeter.


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    Considering the drivers, this is in line with what I'd expect, and is pretty decent all in all.

    After I examine L9 and see about a tweak, I'll be doing more measurements. But right at this point it looks like the driver and crossover integration is meeting the targets I'd hoped for, in a reasonably wide axis in front of the speaker.


    Of course, the important thing is how does it sound?

    ​​​​​​​I have only had the opportunity to play some files from the MacBook Pro test computer, via the Motu interface and the Behringer test amplifier. so far, I planned just glorious living mono listening to "The Best of Fourplay" and "Play Bach: The 50th Anniversary Recording" by Jacque Loussier, but shortly after putting Fourplay on, I noticed ET, who has been supervising this effort, nodding his head and.... foot tapping. That's almost unnerving to see... then he insisted on some Stanley Clarke. Apparently he has a thing for "Bass Folk Song #10". After hearing with the crossover updates, I can see why. I guess that was a good sign...





    the AudioWorx
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    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15259

      Of course, after ET was finished and went back in his maintenance Pod, or what ever he calls that, I put on a few more cuts to relax- things like Shelby Lynne, "Just a little Lovin".

      The single channel mono sound is pretty satisfying- stereo would be better!


      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15259

        A lot of necessary distractions today, but got back to this late afternoon. Before I continue with what developed, I'm going to post the factory SPL plots of the BlieSMa T34A AND T34B; It's important to keep these in mind because I've been essentially developing crossover(s) for both, and they are not quite the same, but pretty close.

        Also, note that my measurements show the HF break up mode on the T34B pair I'm working with is significantly different from the data sheet... as in, nearly non-existent.


        T34A-4

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        T34B-4


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        If you look carefully, what you'll notice is that the T34A peaks after a fashion in the 3-4kHz area, then drops a couple of dB by 6kHz. OTOH, the T34B is pretty darn flat on the data sheet from 3 kHz to 18kHz. If the crossover is designed properly for the T34A, there will be a rise of a couple of dB to a plateau starting at 6-7kHz, which is what I saw in the measurements made at a greater height above the floor, and what I saw for the 2M 40" off the floor measurement. Also, looking at the response with the TA10-11E version of the crossover, it seemed that the notch filter just might not be necessary.

        This was the initial 2M check measurement.


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        Looking at this, the logical thing to do seemed to be to add an RC zobel across the shunt leg of the LPAD, and also try bypassing the trap filter. These T34B I have on hand might have that happy characteristic similar to the Scanspeak 6640 used in the Wavecor Ardent. Unfortunately, they are even more pricey.


        With a 5.6 ohm in series with 3.3 uF in parallel with the LPAD shunt, things look pretty good.


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        The window is long enough to capture some LF data, and the setup was not optimized for mid bass characteristics at the test position- here, I'm most interested in how things look from 400Hz up, and I didn't use much smoothing, so that any narrow band stuff would be apparent up top. This is pretty much what I hoped to see, and will result in a pretty nice forwards power response in the +/- 30 degree angle. To go flat with no rise at all, I'd probably nudge the R in the RC shunt down to 4.7 or 4.0 ohms, from 5.6 in this test, and that's the sort of thing that a switch for alternating between values would be easy to take care of.


        For grins, I did a quick plot for the distortion, and didn't find anything unexpected or that I'd complain about...

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        What really made me feel good this afternoon though, was listening to that Best of Fourplay album again while typing this all in- obviously very clean and articulate bottom end, ditto on the percussion instruments, but what I really dug was the job the PuriFi midrange and the whole system is doing with the vocals- this is a well mastered album, very clean and some of the vocals gave me chills. (OK, I'm easily impressed by some things...)

        And this is just the left channel...

        ​​​​​​​Stay tuned.






















        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15259

          Nora Jones, “Come away with me” album.

          Mmm, mmm, good!
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • csmielke
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2015
            • 109

            Jon,
            Is that with or without the distortion on that album. The Red Book version is annoying and at first I thought I had a system or loudspeaker issue. Seems the production is pretty crappy. They say the SACD version is a little better and it's shame cuz I like her material. You would think they would catch and fix it before releasing it. Oh well probably a money decision.
            Chris

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15259

              Ripped SACD version, via AudioPraise decoder board in Pioneer player, via FireFace 800 with setting to ignore copy protection bit on PCM stream. 88.2 kHz sampling rate.
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15259

                And to clarify for those following closely, Next steps include:
                • Modifying the second cabinet to accept the PuriFi midrange
                • Installing a T34A-4 tweeter in this cabinet for test
                • Finalizing the T34A crossover based on recent simulation work and new measurements, using a modification of the original HF crossover test board
                • Providing crossover documentation for the T34A-4 crossover build, with board layouts
                • Completing building the second set of new crossover boards (they're all ready in progress)
                Some comments worth making- the crossovers as built are targeting flat forward power response in an included 45 degree angle. As previous topic posts have pointed out, this works well with some very high quality recordings, but many have found the external "voicing network" box between preamp and amp to be quite desirable for other designs voiced that way, like the Wavecor Ardent. Keep this in mind, as room acoustics and setup also have considerable impact, and the voicing network module will often mitigate to a degree a "lively" room. I'm going to have an acoustically treated setup in my special listening and music/video bedroom, but this isn't practical for many, and generally not in the living room if you have a typical wife. Or an atypical one.


                https://www.htguide.com/forum/forum/...-investigation


                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15259

                  Scanning this topic, I realize that I didn't ever post any measurement of the T34A-4 showing the HF breakup peak.

                  The T34 series are not easy parts to work with (not like, say, the DA25TX008), but the long throw, low distortion, and minimal contribution from a very narrow design suspension were all intriguing, and the mandatory "bonus" was that it physically was an exact drop in for the JDT-1024, as regards form factor.

                  So, first an early "raw" polar measurement done at 0 degrees, 20 degrees, and 45 degrees:


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                  Then, a quick look at a VituixCAD evaluation with the notch filter removed, with the T34A-4 with my original measurement data for design:


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                  Given the difference between what I'm seeing on the new T34B-4 that I have versus the data sheet, you can see what I was surprised...including the roll off because the tweeter isn't rolling up... and why I'm dropping the notch filter for that tweeter.

                  Last comment for the morning, levels versus frequency are undergoing some fine tuning still in the HF crossover for the T34B-4... and the original HF crossover is being updated for testing with the newer topology and some component changes.



                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15259

                    Very close now - this is a Monday, so I'm expected to get things done! Right?

                    My primary goal to day was to flatten the midrange and treble response as much as possible. I built the second crossover board with the updates I figured would get close to doing the job, and lucky me, they pretty much did. I also ended up increasing the size of one of the series caps in the midrange crossover, C5, by 15uF.

                    In the HF crossover, the series LPAD resistors were increased in size, from 5.1 to 5.6, then to 7.5 for R10 and R32, the add on 1uF cap in parallel with the C15 was disconnected, and the RC shaper network connected across the tweeter grew to two 3.3uF caps and two 5.6Ohm resistors. Lest you worry, the tweeter range impedance models in the 4.5 to 5 ohm range.

                    Things look pretty good, BUT, it may be that I have a bit more work to do- as it measures in this room location as if I have a bit of a loudness function built in... (you can have a lot worse things than that...)


                    To explain, here's the 1/24th octave smoothing measurement at 2 meters.


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                    Now, lets say we do some heavy smoothing, to see how the average levels look...



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                    Now, looking at it this way SUGGESTS that bumping the mid and treble up a couple of dB would be more neutral- and we have sensitivity to burn in both frequency ranges.

                    BUT.... at the volumes my wife will tolerate readily, as I'm listening right now, this really sounds sweet... and when I set up one cabinet in the right channel position, I know the doorways into the master bedroom and my AV music room are doing to be something on the order of bass traps.

                    So, I figure I should come up with a mod for those who want to try that out, it should be easy... but for now I have the feeling I can live with this for a bit and think about it. Dhar has cabinets built and wants to order crossover parts soon, so I need to get this worked out for him. Along with finishing the TB34A tweeter board update build and balancing that.

                    But this definitely feels like progress.

                    And, BTW, to get the midrange, up, just swap the values for the Series and shunt in LPAD, now the 5.6 ohm in the series, and 6.5 in the shunt. A little more finagling for the tweeter, and I'm late for lunch as it is...











                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15259

                      OK, next up is another important piece of data, the impedance curve as currently developed... I'll lead off by saying these are NOT as easy to drive as Wavecor Ardents... but I'll also compare to two smaller models from a well known upscale brand, Magico, to give some context.


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                      Note, LF impedance with the two paralleled RSS315HFA-8 drops to about 3.3 ohms. When I pushed the little A500 test amp, I'd say it didn't like that. I may dig up and install my Aragon X3 into this test rack.

                      Above 100Hz, it doesn't drop below 4 ohms, so a healthy 4 ohm capable amplifier should be OK.


                      ​​​​​​​How does this compare with other high end speakers? Well, actually, looking at Avalon and Magico, pretty well.


                      Here is a "budget" oriented Magico model, the A5, 3 - 9"woofers, sells for around $25,000 a pair, as measured by JA at Stereophile:

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                      Looks like about 2.6 ohms for the LF impedance minima... Quote from Stereophile, given impedance and phase, "The A5 must be used with amplifiers that don't have problems driving 2 ohm loads.


                      ​​​​​​​How about something a bit further up the price curve from Magico, but still not one of their "monsters"- the M2. $56K per pair, when reviewed.



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                      Obviously, the 2 ohm endorsement applies here also.















                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 15259

                        I've been "quiet" here the last week, but not because I haven't been busy- a lot of driver testing and doing another from the ground up evaluation.
                        • Regarding the driver testing, I will do a detailed report later, but for now, let's just say that their have been performance irregularities in earlier shipments of BlieSMa T34A and T34B parts, but the newest pari I have, SN1049 and 1050, seem quite up to snuff, and are my evaluation standards for this project going forward, as well as some T34A-4 recent shipment that Dhar received that looks OK.
                        • Dhar had a bit of a panic about his PuriFi midranges, partly through molding them in an unproven crossover concept, but we tested ALL six of the PFF6.5MF that we have on hand, and they track closely, and are in basic agreement with the spec, and I haven't had any surprises in my crossover modeling or development.
                        • Speaking of which, reviewing all three sections in detail, and having had a plan to adjust the crossover point from woofers to mid to the corner frequency where baffle step is essentially at omni spread for the woofers (200-250Hz) and updated that crossover and the midrange, plus put together a new crossover for the tweeter after confirming good data that makes sense in light of the data sheet and all (which means, yes, a properly functional T34B-4 DOES have an upper breakup mode peak!), updates are well underway, a new package of parts ordered for a new HF crossover build, and the LF and midrange mostly updated and tested.
                        • For reference, the working target in VituixCAD for the completed design is shown below:

                        Click image for larger version

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                        And, yeah, we're visiting the wife's older daughter's family in Seattle next week, so no speaker progress that week, except hopefully getting in the parts for the tweeter crossovers!










                        the AudioWorx
                        Natalie P
                        M8ta
                        Modula Neo DCC
                        Modula MT XE
                        Modula Xtreme
                        Isiris
                        Wavecor Ardent

                        SMJ
                        Minerva Monitor
                        Calliope
                        Ardent D

                        In Development...
                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                        Obi-Wan
                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                        Modula PWB
                        Calliope CC Supreme
                        Natalie P Ultra
                        Natalie P Supreme
                        Janus BP1 Sub


                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15259

                          Now I have orders from Parts Express and Madisound pending delivery on Friday or Saturday… for the new tweeter builds and update to the midrange .

                          I was just reviewing the past builds, and I don’t think I’ve ever had so many developmental crossover builds for one project. Working with the current driver set is a bit more of a challenge than the original ones, but it is looking like the solution is at hand. I almost wish we weren’t going anywhere this week, and that those new parts were already here…​
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                          Obi-Wan
                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                          Modula PWB
                          Calliope CC Supreme
                          Natalie P Ultra
                          Natalie P Supreme
                          Janus BP1 Sub


                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15259

                            Now I have orders from Parts Express and Madisound pending delivery on Friday or Saturday… for the new tweeter builds and update to the midrange .

                            I was just reviewing the past builds, and I don’t think I’ve ever had so many developmental crossover builds for one project. Working with the current driver set is a bit more of a challenge than the original ones, but it is looking like the solution is at hand. I almost wish we weren’t going anywhere this week, and that those new parts were already here…

                            This was BEFORE we left for ​Seattle for Thanksgiving... and all the shipments, including a timed Amazon one, arrived on Saturday the day we got back.

                            The Seattle visit with wife's older daughter's family went even better than I hoped, on various accounts, and we had very unusual weather for Seattle this time of year... bright blue skies and sunshine on Wednesday and Thursday!

                            So, before our late lunch on T-Day (without the T; long story), we went for the 3-1/2 mile walk around GreenLake, where Liubov used to take Max nearly every day when he was a baby- she was Babushka for the family at that time.

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                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15259

                              HOWEVER!! This is not the Holiday Travel Guide forum, so I'd better post something relevant and interesting before a "real moderator" catches me here!


                              There's been some subtle work on the midrange crossover, and some not so subtle work on the HF crossover; the latter is


                              "All New and Improved!"


                              (we hope...)


                              And as proof of effort, besides all the new parts here on hand, I present this new board assembly layout, completed early this AM. Most of it done on Sunday. I did give in and go with more of an electrical 2nd order concept; the BlieSMa T34B-4 tweeter is kind of sitting on the fence about what it really needs or wants.


                              Click image for larger version

Name:	Isiris Clarity Budget HF Xover TA10 V14 8in.png
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                              DO NOT consider this to be the final solution, but I expect it to be very close. This needs to be built, and the midrange update finished before the next test, but that should be sometime this week.















                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
                              Wavecor Ardent

                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
                              Calliope
                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                              Modula PWB
                              Calliope CC Supreme
                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15259

                                Now, let's keep in mind that the way I've been posting about this update project is kind of like showing you how I make the sausage... and I'm not an expert meat packer!

                                Some have expressed
                                thanks for "revealing" more about the process, but wonder how I keep track of things...

                                No, dementia hasn't set in yet, but I have a long, long habit of writing things down in an organized manner, sort of like creating a development journal; I use Outline on the Mac, which is very similar to Microsoft One Note, but is hosted on iCloud or locally as I prefer. Outline can read and write OneNote files, but it has a few other features which I like, lacking in OneNote. I still have a OneNote repository, but it hasn't been updated for a number of years.

                                So, to show an example, here's what I logged before heading out for Thanksgiving after the prior weeks work...

                                The beauty is, while gone on Thanksgiving and all its events (there were a lot) I didn't have to worry about forgetting anything.

                                Of course, this is what I did in my day job as a "Distinguished Engineer" (yeah, really, what a dorky title).


                                Click image for larger version

Name:	Isiris New Notes & Actions Nov 29.png
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                                ​​​​​​​


                                Last edited by JonMarsh; 29 November 2022, 18:47 Tuesday.
                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15259

                                  Isn't it fun watching the sausage being made?

                                  Of course, I caught a few data items today and fixed them...


                                  Click image for larger version

Name:	Isiris Clarity Budget HF Xover TA10 V14 8in.png
Views:	765
Size:	432.9 KB
ID:	927038






                                  And the board is mostly glued up now.
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                  Modula MT XE
                                  Modula Xtreme
                                  Isiris
                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                  SMJ
                                  Minerva Monitor
                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15259

                                    Today was finish up the midrange crossover updates and start testing the crossover sections and the combined result. All of that got delayed by extensive counseling I was providing a couple of people in regards to the Pauling Protocol for cardiac health, and how to use the therapeutic mode, and compatibility issues with things like calcium supplementation (must stop it during therapeutic mode- L-Lysine greatly increases calcium uptake).


                                    BUT!!

                                    That's not we're here for... lets look at some filter response plots and system plots with the updated crossovers...

                                    These plots are at 2M, with Half Hamming windows of various lengths, related to the desired LF response and to cutting down on room reflection interference. Smoothing is 1/12 octave, except the last one, which I dub "Buttery smooth" as it is more to assess the overall balance and take smoothing to make things pretty to the Xtreme.


                                    First, the HF response, with the new crossover board builds (not just a component update)


                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	HF Crossover Ref.png
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                                    Next, the midrange response, as a check against the VituixCAD simulation:


                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	MF Xover Ref.png
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                                    And the woofer response- this is trickier because it's at this distance you can't eliminate boundary influences by windowing without eliminating a lot of data. This measurement shows enough LF response, but the dip due to untreated room issues right below the crossover point is unavoidable. Also, note that we're crossing over the woofer to the midrange at the frequency it is starting to transition to 2pi radiation, so there is an actual climbing response starting around 200-250Hz, so the crossover is an electrical 4th order targeting an LR3 acoustic response at 250 Hz.


                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	LF Xover Ref.png
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                                    Out of curiosity, and due to cabling issues, I first looked at the midrange and tweeter combined.


                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	MF+HF Xover Ref.png
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                                    Next, using basically the same window settings and smoothing, let's look at the full range response at 2M.



                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Full Range Ref.png
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                                    Finally, for fun, I have the "Buttery smooth" plot from the same measurement data:


                                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Buttery Smooth.png
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                                    while writing this all up, I've been listening at about 20 ft from the one speaker, just using the measurement MacBook and Motu interface with the Schitt preamp. For just one channel, I think I've finally got it where it needs to be...
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                    Modula MT XE
                                    Modula Xtreme
                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
                                    Minerva Monitor
                                    Calliope
                                    Ardent D

                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                    Obi-Wan
                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • JonMarsh
                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 15259

                                      One other graph that should be interesting to share is the distortion plot of the full range measurement...



                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Full Range DISTO.png
Views:	726
Size:	148.7 KB
ID:	927048

                                      the AudioWorx
                                      Natalie P
                                      M8ta
                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                      Modula MT XE
                                      Modula Xtreme
                                      Isiris
                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                      SMJ
                                      Minerva Monitor
                                      Calliope
                                      Ardent D

                                      In Development...
                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                      Obi-Wan
                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                      Modula PWB
                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15259

                                        OK, here's pictures of the current crossover builds. The inductor selections are relatively high end, focusing on DCR or at times conductor design for high frequencies. For the capacitors, I've tried to be "cost effective", but not budget. That means a lot of Clarity CSA copper connect caps, for midrange stuff, Alumen film and foil for the critical HF stuff, and Crosscaps and the like for LF crossovers. No Clarity PUR caps or CMR... maybe the next special project.

                                        Note, the woofer and midrange boards are the same size, ~12" x 16". The tweeter board is one of those panels cut in half, so 8" x 12". If I didn't already have binding posts on the speaker cabinets, I'd probably be going with Speakons for the connectors.



                                        Woofer Crossover


                                        Click image for larger version

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                                        Midrange Crossover


                                        Click image for larger version

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                                        Tweeter Crossover


                                        Click image for larger version

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                                        New BOM's and master schematic sheets will be prepared soon. They should only be considered "guidelines", not "Mandates" - this is a DIY forum, after all. Changes in the wire gauge for the woofer inductors could save money, but at some point might require tweaking the midrange and tweeter levels.






                                        the AudioWorx
                                        Natalie P
                                        M8ta
                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                        Modula MT XE
                                        Modula Xtreme
                                        Isiris
                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                        SMJ
                                        Minerva Monitor
                                        Calliope
                                        Ardent D

                                        In Development...
                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                        Obi-Wan
                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                        Modula PWB
                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15259

                                          And just to give you an idea of what I have been listening to on these so far this week (just the left channel!):
                                          • Tumbleweed Connection- Elton John (SACD rip to 88.2 PCM 24bit)
                                          • Nickel Creek- Nickel Creek (SACD rip to 88.2 24 bit PCM)
                                          • Best of Fourplay- Fourplay (remaster)
                                          • Frampton All Blues- Peter Frampton (one of my favorite Les Paul guitars used on this recording, his Phenix)
                                          • Rio de Colores- Strunz & Farah
                                          • I'm Alive- Jackson Brown
                                          • Taproot- Michael Hedges
                                          • This is me- Emily Remmler
                                          • Hotel California 40th- Eagles, remaster remix version.
                                          • Pocket full of Kryptonite- Spin Doctors

                                          Yeah, I haven't found my Steve Wilson CD's since the last move from the Nampa rental yet! (along with surprising amounts of other stuff!) - and the Mac with those on it is set aside waiting to be setup in the special AV room, once that gets cleared out and is ready to setup (mostly storage right now for projects under way and the networked music system!)

                                          These are just files on my 15" MBP used for test now, with Fidelia used for playback. No claims about ultra fidelity (I'd reserve that on a PC or Mac for Audirvana), but it's pretty solid and has a nice user interface.


                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot 2022-12-01 at 7.09.38 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	950.3 KB ID:	927056

                                          The point behind mentioning these cuts is just that they are ones I am familiar with on a variety of systems... not that they are huge audiophile standards everyone should use for evaluation. But they give me a baseline of comparison, due to my familiarity with the music, and how it sounds.

                                          So, when I have an unusually positive reaction to the musicality of cuts on Jackson Browne's "I'm Alive", or Emily Remmler's "This is me", or "Nickel Creek", then that is something worth noting (for me). YMMV, of course.

                                          ​​​​​​​There's some other stuff I don't listen to as much, like some Stanley Clarke tunes, or the Sheffield Harry James (V. 2), or Just a little
                                          Lovin, from Shelby Lynne, but are kind of classic audiophile demos (for me) that I'll pull out when I have stereo running.

                                          Time to get some more crossovers built, and the cabinets updated for the 2nd speaker.







                                          Last edited by JonMarsh; 02 December 2022, 09:29 Friday.
                                          the AudioWorx
                                          Natalie P
                                          M8ta
                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                          Modula MT XE
                                          Modula Xtreme
                                          Isiris
                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                          SMJ
                                          Minerva Monitor
                                          Calliope
                                          Ardent D

                                          In Development...
                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                          Obi-Wan
                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                          Modula PWB
                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • Finleyville
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Sep 2006
                                            • 350

                                            Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                            I did give in and go with more of an electrical 2nd order concept; the BlieSMa T34B-4 tweeter is kind of sitting on the fence about what it really needs or wants.
                                            Does this mean that the final crossover design is moving away from the original plan of your quasi-3rd order design into the more traditional 2nd order?

                                            EDIT: Oh, I see you are still aiming for an acoustic 3rd order, not necessarily an electronic one.
                                            BE ALERT! The world needs more lerts.

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15259

                                              Yup! It's still an acoustic LR3, but I'm adjusting the corner slope in a different way, and reducing the number of capacitors. In all cases, the desire is to get to a LR3 acoustical, same type as the NatalieP and Wavecor Ardent, for example.

                                              But there are many ways to skin a cat, and some are more expensive than others....

                                              Now, imagine these are the results of two possible solutions...



                                              Solution #1

                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	T34B-4 New V1 SPL Opt.png Views:	0 Size:	174.5 KB ID:	927093




                                              Solution #2


                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	T34B-4 New V5 SPL Opt.png Views:	2 Size:	160.2 KB ID:	927084


                                              Yes, Solution number 1 achieves tighter tracking below 1500Hz, and with a non-standard cap value can absolutely nail it.

                                              But!!

                                              In the primary part of the filter network, it has 3x the number of capacitors, and they're mostly bigger ones, too! Plus an additional resistor. It was built up literally section by section, in kind of the way I would usually do a waveguide crossover. Beautiful control, and a less expensive inductor- but much higher overall cost if you like to use the good caps.

                                              The 2nd Solution is what is currently running and shown in the measurements, as it seems better suited to what other forum members would like to build, keeping costs in mind.



                                              I'll be updating the "master crossover schematic" soon, and creating BOMS. With other stuff going on, I can only allocate about a half day on this per day...
                                              Last edited by JonMarsh; 05 December 2022, 11:55 Monday.
                                              the AudioWorx
                                              Natalie P
                                              M8ta
                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                              Modula MT XE
                                              Modula Xtreme
                                              Isiris
                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                              SMJ
                                              Minerva Monitor
                                              Calliope
                                              Ardent D

                                              In Development...
                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                              Obi-Wan
                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                              Modula PWB
                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15259

                                                The 2nd LF crossover board in the current configuration has been built; it's not an add on to an earlier one, so the configuration is more representative of what I would recommend in a high quality build.


                                                Click image for larger version  Name:	LF Xover V14+ TA2B.jpg Views:	0 Size:	841.3 KB ID:	927086




                                                This means big Solen air core inductors, and Solen 400V caps or Jantzen CrossCap parts.

                                                For a "budget" build, since Erse Super Q inductors don't exist any more, Jantzen C-Core and P-Core inductors OR higher DCR Solen air core inductors, and Dayton DMPC caps.
                                                the AudioWorx
                                                Natalie P
                                                M8ta
                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                Modula MT XE
                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                Isiris
                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                SMJ
                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                Calliope
                                                Ardent D

                                                In Development...
                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                Obi-Wan
                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                Modula PWB
                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                Comment

                                                • mordikai
                                                  Junior Member
                                                  • Oct 2007
                                                  • 8

                                                  Hey- is this the 4ohm or 8ohm midrange? sorry if this has already been mentioned but I searched and could not confirm. I happen to have the other drivers on the shelf!

                                                  Comment

                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 15259

                                                    This is the 4 ohm midrange. When these were ordered direct from PuriFi as an early sample order (6 pieces), not through the web shop, the 8 ohm version was not even announced.
                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                    Natalie P
                                                    M8ta
                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                    Modula Xtreme
                                                    Isiris
                                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                                    SMJ
                                                    Minerva Monitor
                                                    Calliope
                                                    Ardent D

                                                    In Development...
                                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                    Obi-Wan
                                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                    Modula PWB
                                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15259

                                                      OK, yeah, I've been swamped with a lot of different things, and this has been on the back burner for the last three weeks, and that burner hasn't even been lit!

                                                      Well, maybe that's not actually true, as I'd been pondering a few things, in regards to the HF Xover network and my concept of "value" version (which is what I last built and measured and have been listening to) and a "perfectionist" version.... (you can probably see where this is going... )


                                                      So, beginning of the week I put my dunce cap back on, and fired up VituixCAD, and in a flash (relatively speaking) I had the new value "Value" version (developed the same way they used to "improve" the designs of early color TVs- the engineering manager would take parts out of what his engineers designed until the TV stopped working, then put that part back in.).

                                                      Of course, doing that, in all fairness, I had to get serious about documenting and verifying the "perfectionist" version, and that design actually got updated slightly, and also became the "PURfectionist" version, because all the primary caps got spec'd as Clarity PUR caps.

                                                      So, I put in a big parts order on Monday, two vendors, which will come in Friday and Saturday (according to the optimistic promises of UPÍ and FedEx).

                                                      And just so the value "Value" version wouldn't develop an inferiority complex, I spec'd out a PUR cap for it.

                                                      So, without further ado, here's the details.


                                                      Value-Value version:

                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                      PURfectionist Version


                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                      In case you're not familiar with the idea behind the Clarity PUR series....


                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	PUR Description.png
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                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                      Natalie P
                                                      M8ta
                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                      Isiris
                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                      SMJ
                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                      Calliope
                                                      Ardent D

                                                      In Development...
                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                      Modula PWB
                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • eb15
                                                        Member
                                                        • Sep 2006
                                                        • 52

                                                        Yes the Clarity Cap PUR seems to be a step up from the Clarity Cap CSA and Jantzen Superior Z in my (quite limited) auditioning of 10uF parts of a 12dB/octave high pass crossover to SB19 or Dayton DC28F tweeters. CSA seems good baseline cap and for other uses, the woofer 12dB low pass for example snell K cabinet I've been using as a test jig for two-way driver and parts evaluations.

                                                        Thanks for the SB19 tweeter mentions, much nicer than original vifa D19 or current seas replacement tweeter in the Original Snell Ks I'm experimenting with.

                                                        I'll be interested in how you think your budget and perfectionist version compare sonically. It is possible that less parts in the path might sound better than the more accurate high pass target.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • augerpro
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Aug 2006
                                                          • 1866

                                                          Jon> what are you using for terminal strips, and the wires connected to them? Why did you choose this method over point-to-point? Other than this obviously being cleaner looking.
                                                          ~Brandon 8O
                                                          Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                                          Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                                          DriverVault
                                                          Soma Sonus

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15259

                                                            I've done a lot of Point to point in the past, at times it's harder for others to follow or to organize the connections. Steve's been using them on his builds for a while, so I figured, "Why not?"

                                                            I picked this six terminal / eight lug part from Digi-Key because a single one was big enough to be useful without being too large, and it's easy to put them together in arrays. Digikey PN is 36-829-ND.
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 15259

                                                              Originally posted by eb15
                                                              Thanks for the SB19 tweeter mentions, much nicer than original vifa D19 or current seas replacement tweeter in the Original Snell Ks I'm experimenting with.

                                                              I'll be interested in how you think your budget and perfectionist version compare sonically. It is possible that less parts in the path might sound better than the more accurate high pass target.
                                                              That's a very good point, and especially why I probably wouldn't recommend building the "Perfectionist" version without some pretty high grade parts. And even in this case, I'm still striving to use fairly cost effective parts for the PURfectionist version. If I wasn't, I'd probably just go with all Alumen film and foil... and that would be pretty dear.

                                                              The tricky thing here is that the BlieSMa tweeter was chosen for the update for some specific characteristics- minimal surround radiation area, high Xmax, and low intrinsic distortion. What makes the T34A and T34B a bit harder to work with is the somewhat non-flat response - while the Fs is about 750Hz, the response starts dropping off below about 2250Hz, the chosen crossover point (Qts is about 0.35). For the size of diaphragm and Xmax linear excursion of 1.5mm, a lower crossover would seem reasonable, but the electrical damping and roll off has to be taken into account in the crossover.

                                                              If I was using an LR4, a 3rd order electrical would come pretty close to what is needed; here, since I prefer to use my own sort of weird LR3, with flatter power response, it's more sensitive to hitting a target roll off, and in this case, it's just not going to track as well in amplitude below the crossover point or in phase.

                                                              The system measurements just prior are with a slightly older version of the "value" concept, which also had a parallel RC shunt for shaping (which used an Alumen cap) and could use a smaller series cap (Alumen in that build). The shunt is gone, a larger cap is required, and with what I hear about the sonic performance of the PUR series, I figured I'd better order some. Should have been in on Friday, but with the weather now it's looking like it's out for delivery today.

                                                              ​​​​​​​Similarly, the newest build on the midrange crossovers are using Clarity CSA copper connect, which are quite a bit more compact than the Jantzen Superior Z build, but seem pretty competitive sonically. And that will likely be designated the "perfectionist build" also, as I'll be putting together a budget BOM based on Dayton and Solen. There is interest from HTG members in both.

                                                              So I'll be building new samples of the HF crossover and measuring both, and listening to both in the system.





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                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 15259

                                                                Originally posted by augerpro
                                                                Jon> what are you using for terminal strips, and the wires connected to them? Why did you choose this method over point-to-point? Other than this obviously being cleaner looking.
                                                                I forgot to address the wiring - this is the same as I've been using for decades literally, standard mil spec TFE insulated multi stranded silver plated copper, 14 AWG.

                                                                I must admit that stuff is getting pricey these days, and the last buy I did was less expensive to do through Silver Sonic than a normal distributor like Digikey.

                                                                I have bought marine grade stranded AWG 14 hook up wire to try out and evaluated.
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                                                                Comment

                                                                • augerpro
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Aug 2006
                                                                  • 1866

                                                                  Thanks Jon!
                                                                  ~Brandon 8O
                                                                  Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                                                  Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                                                  DriverVault
                                                                  Soma Sonus

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 15259

                                                                    In the spirit of the relentless pursuit of variegated modes of imperfection, (pick the flavor you prefer), I present the promised update of a proposed layout for the "PURfectionist" version of the HF crossover, specifically for the T34B.

                                                                    It occurred to me in my benevolent wisdom that it could be actually helpful to leave the grid on in the graphic output, as to facilitate layout and assembly for others so foolhardy as to wish to also build this, so in that unlikely case, I've adjusted the export settings!

                                                                    And no, I haven't been hitting the champagne early, frankly, just a bit punch drunk from all the challenges 2022 has brought!


                                                                    I'm curious to see this actually in action soon, have all the parts on hand, and after this point will go out to the garage and cut more phenolic crossover boards, having just received a shipment yesterday of my favorite Leecraft material (sadly, no longer carried by Woodcraft).


                                                                    Click image for larger version

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                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 15259

                                                                      OK, the updated HF Value design now has a layout drawing.. It has an unplanned "kluge" because the 2.4 ohm resistors didn't ship in the past PE order. Stuff happens sometimes. Also, for fun I ordered another possibility for C1, compared with the Clarity PUR part now on hand, an Audyn series. Note, I took a peek at the price of my favorite Alumen film and foil caps at 8.2uF, let me just say it's somewhere between breath taking and heart stopping. $128. Each. Mmm, not for a "value" build. For similar reasons, though my test build will have an Alumen 4.7 uF in the notch filter because I have a number of them, a Clarity cap would be my recommendation.

                                                                      Here's the schematic as a reminder....



                                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                                      and the plan for the next board build:


                                                                      Click image for larger version

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                                                                      the AudioWorx
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                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                        • 15259

                                                                        Well, keeping in mind that slow work takes time, and this is the time of the year with a lot of things going on, the POC build for the PURfectionist evaluation has been completed- next up will be the newer version of the "Value Edition"


                                                                        Click image for larger version

Name:	PURfectionist POC build.jpg
Views:	725
Size:	893.4 KB
ID:	927710



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                                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 15259

                                                                          In spite of no posts on this for a while, there's been a lot going on behind the scenes, and I'll recap the basics for those that I know have been interested in this project and some of the options. A lot of this has to do with crossover options depending on budget, but there is another wrinkle too, that has been a back burner item not getting attention until now...

                                                                          In the crossover options and optimization category...
                                                                          • I've taken a look at the LF crossover and components and in relationship to the midrange crossover and possible options there, and have parts ordered and a build planned with higher DCR inductors. Why? To refine and stabilize the system sensitivity target, and to lower component costs. It also has some benefits as regards frequency contour, and surprisingly the reverse null even improved a bit. What this means is that I modeled some Jantzen AWG15 parts, and it fit where I wanted to go, and I ordered those parts yesterday. Should have them in a week. I've got lots of LF parts around and an extra board, so I'll do a build with this update and a hardware measurement comparison to confirm around the end of next week. This should also reduce the size of the crossover board. Film at 11... maybe next Saturday!
                                                                          • The midrange crossover board I've been developing is pretty much frozen at this point, other than level tweaks. However, there is the possibility of a much lower cost approach, as proposed by Dhar, which basically amounts to putting a fixed resistance in front of the midrange and making it look like an 8 ohm part to the crossover. I've addressed some topological issues and component values, but at Dhar's request limited the time I put into that for now. This could be a valid way to cut the capacitor cost dramatically, as one of the high pass zero's is realized by an R-L section. The only drawback is that the crossover becomes very "Application Specific" to that driver and surrounding components, and if one wanted to to substitute a different PuriFi 4 ohm driver, you'd need to start over.
                                                                          • The PURfectionist HF board is built and the "Value" item board is underway, though it may be tweaked a little already based on recent simulations, as the PURfectionist board may be. But we're at the point where careful comparison of simulation and measurements is in order before any definitive changes. Should be doing some of that testing next week.
                                                                          • Huh? Different 4 ohm driver? This is where we come to the back burner item- at the same time I ordered the PTT8.0 drivers, I ordered a pair of the PTT6.5X04-08-NAA aluminum cone woofers, because of the excellent midrange distortion performance. The possibility of using them in the Isiris was barely a glimmer in my eye then, but I figured checking them out at some point in 2023 for some application would occur. Of course, there are some slight frequency response differences, and a substantial sensitivity difference. But some basic "What If?" simulations with tweaking existing driver data indicates it's likely feasible, so if all goes as planned, while the wife is out on a girls afternoon soirée I hope to be rebate routing the second top module and mounting one of the PTT6.5X04-08-NAA drivers. Yes, the distortion difference is small, but pretty consistent from 200Hz to 2kHz, the range of interest; and notch filter designs will have to be updated, but that's straight forward; and yes, the NAA driver costs more, but hey, I have a reputation to uphold! This is my "thing", ya know! And I'll use the midrange board that's loaded but not all wired up yet as a test platform- at least, that's today's idea!
                                                                          • And, yeah, I'm going to have to order some more phenolic boards for crossover builds today!



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                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 15259

                                                                            This is the layout for the POC (Proof Of Concept) build for the updated woofer crossover. Parts are on order and should be here by Thursday or Friday next week- 19th or 20th.

                                                                            This build is using Jantzen AWG14 inductors selected for their specific DCR range- this seems to work as intended in simulation, BUT until I build and measure and compare, this is not an official update. The Xover board is more compact, about the same size as one of the tweeter crossover boards. This means one can build a pair from a single Leecraft 11 x 16 1/4" thick phenolic sheet. For this sealed systems, the increase in DCR models as a slight reduction in the low midrange area but little change in the LF output near Fb, due to the impedance curve in the system. The intent was to reduce upper bass/low midrange voltage sensitivity by 1 dB, to facilitate the potential use of the PTT6.5X04-08-NAA woofer as a midrange.


                                                                            This is the current working test crossover if using the updated PURfectionist HF crossover, and with the midrange driver sensitivity reduced to start to approximate the PTT6.5X04-08-NAA:


                                                                            Click image for larger version  Name:	Isiris VTX2 LR3 TA10-V21 Prep LF PE LVL Test XO-schema-1.png Views:	0 Size:	53.4 KB ID:	927875


                                                                            Note, I deliberately use the word "Approximate" because the frequency response even between 100Hz and 2kHz is not the same, the MF driver having some drop off below 500Hz.

                                                                            But this approximate evaluation shows potential feasibility, so at this time two midrange crossovers are planned to be developed.



                                                                            Click image for larger version  Name:	Isiris VTX2 LR3 TA10-V21 Prep LF PE LVL Test SPL-1.png Views:	0 Size:	306.9 KB ID:	927876


                                                                            This is the planned layout for the updated LF crossover:


                                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	Isiris Jantzen LR3 Woofer TA10 V20.png
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                                                                            Next steps are to mount the "alternative" midrange into the second upper module cabinets, which I enlarged the rebate in yesterday.


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                                                                            Click image for larger version  Name:	IMG_6865SS.jpg Views:	0 Size:	653.3 KB ID:	927878​​​​​​​
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                                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • technodanvan
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Nov 2009
                                                                              • 998

                                                                              Seems like it's about time to update that thread title to 2023 Jon. 😅

                                                                              I don't know how you keep all these projects straight.
                                                                              - Danny

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                                • 15259

                                                                                Some one else pointed out a spelling issue with the thread title, and I fixed that this morning- but I agree with you… OTOH, this is certainly a classic case of slow work takes time when you’re doing other stuff like buying a new house, moving in, fixing it up, and pushing some other projects forward!

                                                                                Of course, the other aspect to this, is that this is one of those threads where we share how the sausage is made... step by step by step. Some sausage takes more grinding than others... this one has taken quite a bit longer than anticipated when it started, but it's been an interesting process...
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                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                                  • 15259

                                                                                  Slow work takes time, but if I spend most of the day on something, progress occurs!

                                                                                  Several measurement tasks were undertaken today, but the main one was checking out the woofer as a midrange concept with the PTT6.5X04-NAA variant I'd ordered in mid 2022.


                                                                                  Click image for larger version

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                                                                                  I'll be the first to say this is something of a long shot, as regards levels and crossover, but hey! A bit of a challenge might be fun...



                                                                                  The measured results look pretty much as you'd expect, considering the enclosure and the factory data. HD3 is pretty dang low... especially if one allows for being able to kills the resonance induced rise with the proper network. Coincidently, the PuriFi NAA paper describes an LR3 crossover at the same frequency this system uses, 2250. What a coincidence, I thought, reading that. That crossover point was picked two years ago for the PuriFi midrange driver. However, we're doing a full bandpass crossover, so many components are different in the end.


                                                                                  Click image for larger version

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                                                                                  Disclosing the schematic would be premature without testing it in the real world, but the simulation results with the updated crossover offers some hope...



                                                                                  Click image for larger version

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                                                                                  This is with the updated LF crossover concept discussed previously, a couple more tweaks to it, and a lot of tweaks to the midrange crossover. Reverse nulls look pretty fair, as you'd expect from the tracking shown here. LR3.


                                                                                  ​​​​​​​The LF crossover parts should arrive tomorrow, and the midrange crossover parts around next Tuesday. I have a board for the updated LF build already started, and I'm going to mod the midrange board that isn't finished being wired- a lot of parts do stay the same. So, I'll just have to see how messy it will be to modify the existing layout- topology is only slightly different.


                                                                                  Crossing fingers...



                                                                                  🤞





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                                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                                    • 15259

                                                                                    Well, we've been busy at the sausage factory, and in the pursuit of smaller less expensive crossovers have shifted gears toward making an electrical 2nd order network behave acoustically in this application more like a 3rd order network... and like the owner at Philco TV, cutting out parts! Two versions of this in process, one for the MF midrange driver, one for the NAA woofer to be trialed as a midrange.

                                                                                    Now that I've got parts on order from Dayton Ohio and the UK, and what looks like a workable though not fun to build layout, time to share a little bit?


                                                                                    This is the initial board layout for the NAA driver used as a midrange. Cost could be reduced by using less "nice" caps than the Clarity CSA Copper Connect, but if you're going to all this trouble, I'd recommend scrounging for spare change under the sofa cushions if necessary...

                                                                                    This layout is getting updated to 11-1/2" wide due to the size available in the base material.



                                                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Isiris Jantzen LR3 CSA NAA MF Small TA10 V21 copy.png Views:	0 Size:	815.1 KB ID:	928095



                                                                                    Here's what the VituixCAD response looks like- when it's this close, it's time to build and measure and tweak hardware instead of tweaking sims... just my opinion. The zero's in the midrange crossover have always been a bit of a concern, because in targeting the LR3 response, trying to avoid too large an LF roll slope was resulting in a rather large second series capacitance. So, do away with the capacitance, and adjust the primary components and their Q to get as close as possible to the target response. The notch networks seem to be doing the job quite well on the top end of the NAA PuriFi driver.




                                                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Isiris VTX2 LR3 TA10-V21 NAA-DriverUpdate-5 XO-Complex SPL-1.png Views:	0 Size:	326.1 KB ID:	928096








                                                                                    the AudioWorx
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                                                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                                      • 15259

                                                                                      Note, the PTT6.5 MF midrange driver version has been getting a parallel update, board layout isn't done yet, but the topological updates are similar and the board shrink will be similar. Some parts are ordered, but I'm going to check out the NAA in hardware before completing this POC parts order.


                                                                                      Click image for larger version

Name:	Isiris VTX2 LR3 TA10-V21 NewTopoUpdateMFV5 XO-Complex SPL-1.png
Views:	527
Size:	274.3 KB
ID:	928109










                                                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                                                      Natalie P
                                                                                      M8ta
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                                                                                      Isiris
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                                                                                      SMJ
                                                                                      Minerva Monitor
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                                                                                      Ardent D

                                                                                      In Development...
                                                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                                        • 15259

                                                                                        TGIF!!


                                                                                        A lot of mundane and necessary stuff to deal with this week, but yesterday 4 parts orders showed up on the doorstep, courtesy of UPS and FedEx. So new POC boards are going together, and should see testing some time this weekend.


                                                                                        First up is the new compact version of the LF crossover, tuned for the PTT6.5X04-NAA woofer used as midrange- though it should work fine with the upcoming MF midrange crossover, too.



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                                                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                                                        Natalie P
                                                                                        M8ta
                                                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                                                        Isiris
                                                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                        SMJ
                                                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                                                        Calliope
                                                                                        Ardent D

                                                                                        In Development...
                                                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                        Obi-Wan
                                                                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                        Modula PWB
                                                                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                                          • 15259

                                                                                          The elves have been busy today, and the POC midrange crossover test build for the PTT6.5X04-NAA-08 has been assembled.



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                                                                                          The new POC crossover design for the PTT6.5MF04-NFA-01, similar in topology to the above, is in layout and should be in construction tomorrow.





                                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                                          Natalie P
                                                                                          M8ta
                                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                                                          Isiris
                                                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                          SMJ
                                                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                                                          Calliope
                                                                                          Ardent D

                                                                                          In Development...
                                                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                          Modula PWB
                                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                                            • 15259

                                                                                            OK, now I think I have the new POC build for the 6.5MF midrange driver worked out, with parts ordered. I have a reasonably good feeling about this... this is definitely the "value" edition for the midrange crossover.


                                                                                            This is the predicted response combined with the updated LF crossover...


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                                                                                            And here's the board layout drawing...



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                                                                                            Note,

                                                                                            I'm getting kind of nervous about the commercial availability of BlieSMa tweeters, so I'm also looking into developing crossovers for some SB Acoustics Be dome tweeters I have on hand... The SB29BAC and the TW29B-B-4 are the main candidates. Very similar motors and rear chambers, lower Fs than other variants, some variation in price and style.


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                                                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                                                            Natalie P
                                                                                            M8ta
                                                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                                                            Isiris
                                                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                            SMJ
                                                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                                                            Calliope
                                                                                            Ardent D

                                                                                            In Development...
                                                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                            Modula PWB
                                                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                            Comment

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