Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

[TEK]

I actually has two systems. First there is the ventilation for the house. As the room is sound proof there is both air in and air out. As heating is a big cost in Norway the air going out of the house is going trough a heat exchanger and is used to heat up the new air going into the house. It claims over 80% efficient in heat recycling.
And yes, there are sound dampening channels before all air intakes all over the house.
Tgat system does however only supply fresh air - it is not used for cooling.
For cooling I have a separate unit, a Mitshibishi Kirigamine Hara, that can be used for both heating and coolin. U'm using it mostly for cooling ;-)
On silent mode it makes quite a bit less noise than the projector.

[BobEllis]

Agreed, TEK. You just need to spend the extra to make sure that the AC is quiet. Oversized fiberglass ducts, a couple of good bends to block off the blower and very large diffusers to keep the airspeed low. All of this is much easier to pull off in the construction phase. I'm guessing that all of that came so naturally to you that it didn't cross your mind to mention it or sound dampening walls.

I had a house once that had aluminum ducts. The builder bragged about their durability. The system was so poorly designed that passing gas in the master bath was audible downstairs in the kitchen through the ducts. We took to turning the blower on when we had guests.

[TEK]

I have a projector as well, and 3 subs, and a processor, and a 5 channel A/B amp as well as two ncore mono amps. And myself and visitors - so I concluded that AC was the way to go.
Happy for it now. It's to stupid to use all that money for a nice listening/cinema room, and then beeing uncomfortable because it's to hot in there...

[dar47]

Thanks guys, Ron glad you enjoying the M51 and just tell yourself everything under $5000. is mostly just a side step so your good to go for awhile.:W I am pretty content sitting listening, I used to listen for an hour or while I was working out in the basement and then watch a movie now not much tv just music then bed.

Bob I agree when my setup was in the treated basement I used turn the basement refrigerator off that was 35' behind me and got anode when the furnace with central air would click in. Some times I would forget I turn the frig off, that cost me a few dollars to replace what was in the freezer, haha. It is nice when you get an amp you can just forget a bought.

[BobEllis]

It's a LOT less expensive to go nCore, especially if you put in AC that is as quiet as a system with these speakers deserve. There are times I can hear my DVR's hard drive from 4 meters away. Classical music just begs for the DVR to be unplugged.

[TEK]

Add my belated happy birthday wishes to the list, Dar. I'm really happy that you guys went down this path. My Ardents makes PT breaks a bit more enjoyable.

Yes, like Ron's, my breaks are longer than they would be with my old speakers. Glad I have my music ripped - My new knee might collapse changing discs. The only down side of listening so much is the heat my Aleph-J generates. I'm not ready financially to head down the nCore path.

I installed air-condition in my basement :-)

[BobEllis]

Add my belated happy birthday wishes to the list, Dar. I'm really happy that you guys went down this path. My Ardents makes PT breaks a bit more enjoyable.

Yes, like Ron's, my breaks are longer than they would be with my old speakers. Glad I have my music ripped - My new knee might collapse changing discs. The only down side of listening so much is the heat my Aleph-J generates. I'm not ready financially to head down the nCore path.

[Renron]

Sorry I missed it yesterday, but, happy birthday. I REALLY like the M51.
I was tearing apart my pellet stove yesterday to replace some worn out parts and a couple of motors and thought it would be nice to listen to some music while I worked on the stove. 4 CDs later I got up from the couch and went back to work on the stove. Good thing the wife unit was gone at the time............
Happy birthday buddy.
Ron

[dar47]

Ah, thanks guys a year wiser as maybe older too!

[Steve Manning]

Happy Birthday Master Darrell ;b>

[JonMarsh]

Happy Birthday!

I'll second that motion! All the best! :T




:^x


:dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana:

[wkhanna]

Funny how we are all bantering a bought an inexperienced wood worker with limited hand tool experience that is going to make it through all the precision cuts and perfectly paced recessed holes and then he comes to the facets and says I can't cut the facets. If I was said guy and I wanted to cut then on a saw I would just go to my saw's best depth and less angle and live with it. If I didn't want to use a power planer I would put 2 guides on or pencil line and buy a big Japanese pull saw and go slow, then sand. Probably just push easy button and take the baffle to a cabinet guy and have him cut them!

Now I so want to make a set by hand so I can route the facet with a router gig just for fun!

totally OT, but just wanted to shout out a "Happy B-Day" to our good friend from the Great North!

:banana::banana::banana:arty::banana::banana::banana:

[Renron]

I just did what E.T. told me to do. 'cause I like breathing.
Ron

[BobEllis]

this is good, supporting evidence for what was already derived.
i have the Mundorf MResist SUPREME spec'd for all four of the resistors in the BOM for my Duded Up Natalie P's (aka: my DuP's).

though i am not sure i really need this level of performance for R8, which appears to be more in the woofer section?
...... but i do not want to take any chances just for the sake of saving $30

I'll make it easier on you, Bill. How many 10 W Mills resistors does it take to replace 20 W worth of Mresist supreme? What's the savings now? I used Mills in the Woofer RC only because I couldn't get the right value in Mundorf.
G

[TEK]

Fe$tool, quality products but man, they are pricey!
Remember that if you set the saw at 40* and cut with the saw on the face of the baffle, the facet will be 50* , I made that mistake and had to dutchie it up to repair it. 45* works and looks good thou.
A quality Japanese Pull saw will finish the cut cleanly and easily.
Ron

But that is bot nessesarly a problem - as the Wavecore Ardents look stunning with 50 degree angled baffels.
Do not askme how I know, but I can reveale that I do have first hand experience on the issue :W

[wkhanna]

this is good, supporting evidence for what was already derived.
i have the Mundorf MResist SUPREME spec'd for all four of the resistors in the BOM for my Duded Up Natalie P's (aka: my DuP's).

though i am not sure i really need this level of performance for R8, which appears to be more in the woofer section?
...... but i do not want to take any chances just for the sake of saving $30

[JonMarsh]

About those resistors...

Something slightly different but relevant to the Ardents...

Over the holiday break I came across an interesting article by Martin Colloms in the July - September quarter issue 2011 of HiFi Critic, in which he reviews and evaluates resistors in the context of the impact on the sonics of a set of Wilson Audio Sophia's, comparing both the supplied Caddock resistors, and quite a few other resistor brands of the same value, including several types of Mundorfs, Duelund CAST, Vishay, Wlwyn, Mggitt, etc. Both statistical subjective responses were tabulated for each type, as well as measured data for the submitted samples for resistance accuracy and net inductance.

The Caddock resistors supplied by Wilson scored higher than most, but not as nearly as high as the Duelund CAST and the Mundorf MResist SUPREME (the recommended type for the Ardents, and the only one's I've used in my upscale speaker builds for the last 5 years).

For reference, the statistical combined subjective rating for the Caddocks that came with the Sophias was 53%; for the Mundorf MResist was 64%, and for the Duelund CAST was 79%.

So, those of you out there who would like to upgrade your tweeter and midrange protection/padding resistors on your $16,700 per pair Wilson Audio Sophia's know what to do... (other resistors came in even at comparative statical summary values of 40% and even 36%. Most ceramics came in around 40-43%). (BTW, for commercial speakers, these seem like pretty good value for the money, coming in where they do price wise, often half of possibly competing models)

[Renron]

Fe$tool, quality products but man, they are pricey!
Remember that if you set the saw at 40* and cut with the saw on the face of the baffle, the facet will be 50* , I made that mistake and had to dutchie it up to repair it. 45* works and looks good thou.
A quality Japanese Pull saw will finish the cut cleanly and easily.
Ron

[TEK]

One pass, but I think I just have not thought about using several.
But the Festool TS55 does bot go deep enough to go all the way trough, so I did the last part of the cut with a japaneese handsaw)
Plywood usually goes OK in one pass - but full depth hardwood is a bit hard on the saw and cause the engine protection to apply quite often.
If you go multiple passes you better be sure that your guide rail is fastened well.
I use to clamp it on. Before I was using regular clamps, but then I got myself two of those festool clamps that is designed to work with the guide rail (fasten to a track at the inderside of the guide rail so they are not intefering with anything).
Those work really well - but are cracy expensive as all other festool stuff.

[Horio]

Yes, that does work

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?42506-Official-Wavecor-Ardent-Reference-Thread-How-we-realized-the-Dream&p=621268&viewfull=1#post621268

But if you want to get all the way trough you will probably need a TS75 (-;

Tek,

Did you do your cuts in one slow pass or multiple?

[TEK]

Jon maybe the facets are a perfect application of a track saw? I haven't used my Festool TS55 yet, but it seems pretty straight forward to clamp the track where you want, set the saw angle, and push.

Yes, that does work

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?42506-Official-Wavecor-Ardent-Reference-Thread-How-we-realized-the-Dream&p=621268&viewfull=1#post621268

But if you want to get all the way trough you will probably need a TS75 (-;

[augerpro]

Jon maybe the facets are a perfect application of a track saw? I haven't used my Festool TS55 yet, but it seems pretty straight forward to clamp the track where you want, set the saw angle, and push.

[ergo]

Building the Ardents virtually for now, but making some progress.

The project parameters work as they should - so the model scales nicely if I increase the layer thickness of the panel materials. Now on to the box modelling during the weekend.

Original intended baffle material thickness's


With both BB and Bamboo set to 1 1/2 inch just for a try

[Steve Manning]

Here's a great quote from a cabinetmaking book I have, by Robert W. Lang.

"And don't be afraid to take your woodworking skills where you've never been before. You will be a lot happier with a completed project that pushed you to do better work than you will with one that doesn't look as good because you took the easy way out.
As a Professional cabinetmaker, I have been involved in some very high-end projects. The ones that were the most fun and turned out the best were the ones where none of us involved had ever attempted anything like that before."

In my own experience, one rung up the ladder leads to another rung. Soon you'll see just how far you've come.
"Is perfect good enough?"
Ron

Nice .....

[Renron]

Here's a great quote from a cabinetmaking book I have, by Robert W. Lang.

"And don't be afraid to take your woodworking skills where you've never been before. You will be a lot happier with a completed project that pushed you to do better work than you will with one that doesn't look as good because you took the easy way out.
As a Professional cabinetmaker, I have been involved in some very high-end projects. The ones that were the most fun and turned out the best were the ones where none of us involved had ever attempted anything like that before."

In my own experience, one rung up the ladder leads to another rung. Soon you'll see just how far you've come.
"Is perfect good enough?"
Ron

[JonMarsh]

Jon - Forgot to mention... finally got my Smith and Larson Tester... Will probably start and have a crack at tuning stuffing this weekend in the Subwoofer cabinets and maybe a spot of polishing!

Hey, that's great! I'd like to have those impedance curves in your cabinets, of course!

I have received the pieces to build the text box for the AS250, but the weather has been seriously bad for doing any work outdoors or in the shed. Hopefully this will improve soon.

[JonMarsh]

Funny how we are all bantering a bought an inexperienced wood worker with limited hand tool experience that is going to make it through all the precision cuts and perfectly paced recessed holes and then he comes to the facets and says I can't cut the facets. If I was said guy and I wanted to cut then on a saw I would just go to my saw's best depth and less angle and live with it. If I didn't want to use a power planer I would put 2 guides on or pencil line and buy a big Japanese pull saw and go slow, then sand. Probably just push easy button and take the baffle to a cabinet guy and have him cut them!

Now I so want to make a set by hand so I can route the facet with a router gig just for fun!

Oooh, you're hard core!

Just remember these were originally built by a guy who by NO MEANS is qualified as a competent wood worker- wires and sparks are my thing...

So, I have a tendency to figure, if I can do it, anyone can with a little effort? Or maybe equally poor common sense to taking on a difficult challenge?

BTW, I've used three different methods for facet cuts-


Big fixture holding a subsection of the baffle in place for a table saw rip (original Ardents)

Cut with a long reach 12" dual bevel sliding miter saw, with the last couple of inches using a Japanese hand held saw (Isiris)

Cut with a 5" circular saw hand held with a clamped guide using a thin kerf blade (under duress, for ET - his wood working skills are worse than mine- I think it's a problem from parallax or something with that helmet thing he has to wear) for the Dai Katana.

[JonMarsh]

I think the best solution is to make a sticky thread "how you can make the Ardent facets".
There are so many ways to do it and with many different tool - anyone who is able to build the rest of the box should be able to cut them with a push in the right direction.

This isn't a bad idea at all- have a cutting facets thread. I'll have to see if as a moderator I have the tools necessary to "surgically copy" relevant parts of existing threads into a new one.

Things are crazy busy at work, and difficult in my personal life, too, so it might be a little while until I get to this, but hopefully can find some time on the weekend.

I've been using a newish (to me) GTD program called 2Do, for about the last nine months, and it's great about not letting me forget stuff (if I use it properly) but that just highlight how far behind I am on some things! :B

[TEK]

I think the best solution is to make a sticky thread "how you can make the Ardent facets".
There are so many ways to do it and with many different tool - anyone who is able to build the rest of the box should be able to cut them with a push in the right direction.

[ergo]

Ergo,
Excellent, glad to have you aboard the Ardent train. They sound so good !
Looking forward to your build thread. Are you going full price Ardents ?

Ron

Yes, I plan to go for the full price version. these would replace the Modula MKII EE versions in my family room... and they have to exceed the Minerva EE-s in my study then too
Hmm, seems there is a pattern and I have not followed Jon's projects 100% this far. I might do this time though.

[dar47]

Funny how we are all bantering a bought an inexperienced wood worker with limited hand tool experience that is going to make it through all the precision cuts and perfectly paced recessed holes and then he comes to the facets and says I can't cut the facets. If I was said guy and I wanted to cut then on a saw I would just go to my saw's best depth and less angle and live with it. If I didn't want to use a power planer I would put 2 guides on or pencil line and buy a big Japanese pull saw and go slow, then sand. Probably just push easy button and take the baffle to a cabinet guy and have him cut them!

Now I so want to make a set by hand so I can route the facet with a router gig just for fun!

[BobEllis]

It does, but creates its own issues for finishing. Tapered round overs would require a jig or CNC. Then how do you veneer it? I'd vacuum bag, but that adds pretty significantly to the cost of tools.

Then it changes the look which may not be acceptable. I think the facets make the Ardents look lighter and less imposing. My girlfriend was not happy with the size of them without facets.

[Carl V]

Would a big & generous round over solve the diffraction issue.
Such as, Hales Concept, Older Thiel Or Kharma...there might be more.

[meb46]

Jon - Forgot to mention... finally got my Smith and Larson Tester... Will probably start and have a crack at tuning stuffing this weekend in the Subwoofer cabinets and maybe a spot of polishing!

[meb46]

ergo - great stuff... I'm a +1 on the learning of CAD software. I taught myself Solidworks over the years and have found there is no better way to learn that actually having a project and self discovering issues and solutions. Its slow, but a great way to really understand what it can do and get the process/functionality firmly implanted in your head. Even with my latest build, I still sat with Solidworks open on one screen, YouTube on the other and switched between them every time I needed to brush up on functionality or tools.

Jon - On the wood working side of things, all of the cabinets with the Avalon style facets are going to possibly deter potential builders. Whilst the process of cutting them is straight forward, its not to be taken for granted by your entry level woodworker. Maybe the answer is an adjustable jig to fit on table saw's... business idea, albeit limited market What's the angle it needs to hold the baffle at and is it the same angle for both top and bottom facet cuts? Or how about an ingenious router template, something like a collar? Just throwing ideas out there...

[JonMarsh]

Just a bit of follow up on this topic, growing down in price the Ardent concept-

This is the measured response from one of my ZA14's...





It doesn't take much imagination to figure out that between 500Hz and 2500Hz these little guys rock, with both HD2 and HD3 about 60dB down - this is at 2.83VRMS drive. These have enough Sd that you don't have to worry about how they'll handle the lower part of the midrange, and at $39.99, you absolutely have no business complaining about the price. Just stay away from the resonant amplification points of distortion products- would suggest a 2200Hz crossover, either my "patented" LR3 (no such thing according to Linkwitz, it takes a certain time offset to make it work) (same as used in Wavecor Ardent and NatalieP and Modula MT)

[scottvalentin]

Speaking of value Ardents, I had the following thoughts, as I have come into possession of the mids from Kevin M for a very reasonable price:
Tweeter: SB Acoustics SB 19 (or SB 26 STAC as I have 2)
Mid: Tang Band W4-1337
Woofer: Not sure yet!

I will be using the TBs in a quick full range setup to test my measurement and design skills first, then later move on to something like this.

[Renron]

Ergo,
Excellent, glad to have you aboard the Ardent train. They sound so good !
Looking forward to your build thread. Are you going full price Ardents ?

Ron

[ergo]

I'm also getting ready to attempt the Wavecor Ardents in their original form. As a preparation I've been going through the many threads and gathering pics, tips and descriptions into a OneNote notebook. I've separated out the box drawings, box build tips, crossover topics, driver topics etc. At one point I'll try to make this available for download too, but that'll take some more time to both gather the data and clean it up nice enough.... What I can say is that after going through the threads and seeing the many ways these boxes can be done it does not feel as intimidating anymore

I've also started to redraw the box in Fusion 360. Few purposes with that
* teach myself the Fusion
* it has very easy ability to switch between imperial and metric
* it has a 2d sketch -> 3D model driven logic
* one can create "project parameters" for material thickness for example
So in theory if done correct one can change these material parameters for BB or Bamboo and the whole 3D model adapts accordingly.....

I'm some way away from being able to do the Ardent box like that but a simple rectangular 2way box did work and scale nicely if I tried 18mm versus 22mm versus 29mm... or change driver holes and flange cuts via 2D source drawing etc.

[JonMarsh]

I thought occasionally about it, I have one or two on hand, but in my experience the actual sensitivity seemed even lower, the Qts is rather high, and the Sd is somewhat less. Of course, it does win out on price.


But I'm sure it could be used successfully with some alteration of the design. My recollection is that it also had somewhat more issues with the breakup mode Q.


Now, here's a question to pose for people- given the wood working challenges of the Ardent system, I think in most cases that is often a bigger barrier to entry than the component costs.

One of the idea's I've been kicking around with Steve is an Ardent derived system using lower cost drivers (the RIGHT lower cost drivers, which makes it tricky)... but it's hard to imagine simplifying the wood working, unless we approach it as a two box system, with a midrange/tweeter box on top of a more straightforward woofer cabinet. (Steve has some really cool drawings of what he calls the Ardent S, which is derived from some Wilson Audio ideas to my eye, but that's DEFINITELY NOT easier to build than the existing Ardent concept.

So, considering the target to keep distortion low and a similar output and response capability, one of the ideas has been pairing either the SW223's or the RS210HF with the Zaph ZA14 (which makes an excellent low distortion midrange- IMO, not so great as a mid woofer) and something like the venerable RS28a or RS28F.

But you've still got to build a crossover for it, and there is no magic to make a good low cost crossover- even with the most careful parts selection, and cutting a few corners, we're still talking some real money.

But we might undertake this... or any aspiring designers out there are welcome to take the idea and see what they can do with it! :B


BTW< the forum software does compress and downgrade images above a certain side, which is why I use three different external services for most of my image hosting, mostly Flickr of late, because it's design for serious photography and is the only one I've found besides my Virtual Avenue account that doesn't compress or down Rez the images.

[Zvu]

I'll post links for hi-res images when i get back home. Either my phone or forum resized images making it difficult to see measurements.

[Zvu]

Question for Jon i guess,

Have you ever considered using Dayton Audio RSS210HF for Ardents ?

Measurements from Hobby Hifi attached:




Looking at them, they have very similar TS parameters, both have aluminium cone, and model very similar (volume differs by 5-10 liters depending on what you want to achieve and in what type of cabinet). Daytons are easier to get in US, cheaper and by the looks of it - it wouldn't cost you much of a performance, if any. Wavecor does look a bit sexier with smaller dust-cap and shallower cone.

[Steve Manning]

It's got a pair of knives on a circular head. Alignment is important for smooth cuts, just requires patience to set up properly.

Cool, sounds like my jointer ...... thanks Bob.

[BobEllis]

It's got a pair of knives on a circular head. Alignment is important for smooth cuts, just requires patience to set up properly.

[Steve Manning]

And keep the cuts fine. I had a little tearout getting too aggressive. If you have to push hard, you're cutting way too deep.

Bob does your power plane have a single blade or is multiple, I've never used one?