Ardent Speaker Camp

[Juhazi]

Jon, please consider putting this too on your to-do -list

Ardent with closed woofers.

I prefer closed box woofers and perhaps just the same drivers will do. Or perhaps a close variants like RNX/RLY by SEAS

[JonMarsh]

Jon, please consider putting this too on your to-do -list

Ardent with closed woofers.

I prefer closed box woofers and perhaps just the same drivers will do. Or perhaps a close variants like RNX/RLY by SEAS

That IS the purpose of the current update in planning and partially completed- evaluating two sealed box versions- one with Aluminum illuminator 7" drivers sealed, and another with RS225-4 woofers- given the greater swept area and even more favorable Qts.

[JonP]

Not to drag things off topic, (or, perhaps I'm not...) Jon, wanted to sanity check myself on what you think a favorable volume would be for a pair of RS225'S? I have a coworker who is contemplating a bass bin with that, probably vented, in likely less than the optimum value. I talked to him about life, but he bought 'em for their looks anyway... the beginning of many a sad tale...


Was going to PM this, but couldn't figure out HOW with the new board....

[JonMarsh]

Not to drag things off topic, (or, perhaps I'm not...) Jon, wanted to sanity check myself on what you think a favorable volume would be for a pair of RS225'S? I have a coworker who is contemplating a bass bin with that, probably vented, in likely less than the optimum value. I talked to him about life, but he bought 'em for their looks anyway... the beginning of many a sad tale...


Was going to PM this, but couldn't figure out HOW with the new board....

Actually, that's something I'll be working up shortly- but it makes a HUGE difference whether you're talking about the 8 ohm or 4 ohm version, or going sealed or ported. Optimum for the 8 ohm version ported is (IMO) that which I used for the M8ta, UNLESS you want a different Fb, Q, etc! Which you may! So, while I used 68 liters with a vent tuning of 23 Hz, and an F3 of 38 Hz, expecting room boundary to reinforce the range below that, others may prefer something different, like a maximally flat alignment with a higher Q and higher Fb. I wouldn't go there, but that's just me...

I'll have some thoughts and more figures to share by this weekend. Optimum for a pair of RW225-8 ported could wind up being as large as what I'm using for my Isiris sealed- which is a little crazy, but that's how the numbers look, and is typical for doing a ported version (Mike's Isis clone is much larger (147L) than my Isiris (110L), and ported for response to Fb of 18 Hz, where it will be down about 8 dB, which should be handily made up by boundary reinforcement).

[JonP]

Arrgh... didn't mention he'd picked the RS225-4's. A pair per side. His idea, a pair of 4 ohm in series... I haven't modeled that yet, but am guessing maybe a pair of 8 ohm in parallel might have been a better idea. He also has fixed ideas on looks and volume, probably only 50 - 70 L. I'm gently urging him to think more volume, or one driver, as well as spend time with a box modeling program... It'll be active and amped, vs passive, on the bottom end, so impedance worries.

[JonMarsh]

Actually, my thinking is more in line with your friends- it's hard to get a livable impedance from a pair of woofers with DCR around 6 ohms each, working with a mid that requires BSC due to the frequency range and crossover points- it almost always will wind up being too close to 2 ohms for comfort in the upper mid bass/lower midrange. Dual 4 ohm woofers in series will still have the same sensitivity as the single 4 ohm, which is lower by 3 dB than the paralleled 8 ohm versions. But much easier to make the overall crossover work nicely, and unless you've got a SET, the power is probably no big deal.

Sealed also makes a low mid crossover easier, because the box impedance peak can usually be ignored. The double peak of a ported enclosure is more of a problem, as the upper peak is much closer to a 250 or 300 Hz crossover.

My first pass will be modeling the dual RS225-4 in 68 liters sealed- same volume as original Ardent.

[Jonasz]

Those look to be a new level of drivers for Wavecor- the "subwoofer" ones look the most interesting, from a Qts viewpoint, but the sensitivity is so low! At least the SPL plots are, I'm having a bit of difficulty reconciling the 2.83VRMS sensitivity versus the SPL plots which also show 2.83VRMS drive- for example, for the 4 ohm SW182BD01, the rated sensitivity is 85.5 dB, (with the note calculated from T/S parameters), but the plot for it barely nudges 81 dB in a small portion of the range? Curious. And the 8 ohm version doesn't quite touch 80 dB. I expect that with 25 mm xmax 10's and 12s, but not an 8 mm Xmax 7" driver- the aluminum Illuminators are quite a bit higher in sensitivity.

Have you seen any reviews or test reports on these anywhere?

I've seen a test of a couple of them in a german magazine. I'll see if I can fix a couple screendumps, the pdf is way too big to mail.

There's also a 8" unit: http://www.wavecor.com/html/sw223bd01.html

The only first hand experience I have of Wavecore is Vapor Audios Breeze wich I heard at Ryans place. It's the 5" Nomex paired with a Raal 70-10 and in this design both drivers sounded excellent!

It's hard to find high quality drivers with higheish qts nowadays if you don't go SS (wich tend to have higher than published q's).

[JonMarsh]

That 8" unit looks pretty interesting, and it had some good PDF product links on the driver page- have to go see if Solen will carry that one.

Thanks for the feedback and heads up!

[Evil Twin]

I've seen a test of a couple of them in a german magazine. I'll see if I can fix a couple screendumps, the pdf is way too big to mail.

There's also a 8" unit: http://www.wavecor.com/html/sw223bd01.html

The only first hand experience I have of Wavecore is Vapor Audios Breeze wich I heard at Ryans place. It's the 5" Nomex paired with a Raal 70-10 and in this design both drivers sounded excellent!

It's hard to find high quality drivers with higheish qts nowadays if you don't go SS (wich tend to have higher than published q's).

The driver unit you reference is most interesting... after a brief confirmation in the Force with the Chancellor, I have ordered two to evaluate, as the published data may fulfill the requirements for an updated Ardent design, and bring it more into line with the characteristics of the Isiris Three Way Design Study. These may most likely replace the 7" Illuminators, given the swept area advantage and well controlled midrange response.

For now, consider that you have rendered a useful service to the Empire...

[JonMarsh]

Not to drag things off topic, (or, perhaps I'm not...) Jon, wanted to sanity check myself on what you think a favorable volume would be for a pair of RS225'S? I have a coworker who is contemplating a bass bin with that, probably vented, in likely less than the optimum value. I talked to him about life, but he bought 'em for their looks anyway... the beginning of many a sad tale...


Was going to PM this, but couldn't figure out HOW with the new board....

I've modeled the RS225-4 with Unibox, and it looks pretty good in an Ardent enclosure sealed with 50L net. Fb is 41 Hz, Qtc=0.622, F6 is about 35 Hz, so with normal boundary lift, low end should be quite reasonable. Excursion limits would be reached at 30 Hz with 50W drive, anechoic output of 96 dB; with boundary lift expect that to be about 103-105 dB per cabinet. I like how that is looking, and you can't argue with the value proposition. Predicted sensitivity with 2.83 VRMS drive is 87.7 dB, which I expect might be a bit optimistic, but it's in the range I'd hope for. With inductor losses and the like, expect more like 86.5 dB, I'd estimate. This gives some working range for contouring the mid response, too. I like how this is shaping up.

[dar47]

Pardon my lack of faith Evil One, but the sw223bd01's at $278 CAD is not much less the Scans at $335?

Jon, you should of made them buy them. :W

Before you start that chocking thing your good at, this does find some what of a middle ground for those that have a little more. With the extra swept area I'm wondering how it will come in compared to the Scans and the 225's?

[JonMarsh]

Pardon my lack of faith Evil One, but the sw223bd01's at $278 CAD is not much less the Scans at $335?

Jon, you should of made them buy them. :W

Before you start that chocking thing your good at, this does find some what of a middle ground for those that have a little more. With the extra swept area I'm wondering how it will come in compared to the Scans and the 225's?

I'm thinking that the Wavecor 8-3/4" may be a better high end solution for the Ardent than the 7" Illuminators (both in dual driver configuration), what with the higher swept area AND a couple more mm Xmax. The magnetic design is similar to an innovation on some Accuton drivers introduced in 2012. What remains to be seen is actual sensitivity and distortion. AV Vault in the USA handles Wavecor; one is on order from them, as Solen only had one in stock. The factory SPL plots look very usable as regards smooth response to 1 kHz and a manageable top end breakup.

For the budget solution, dual RS225-4 models nicely in 50L and I'll modify one cabinet to test those.

Cabinet mods will be a bit of a pain to do, but I think I can just cut out the section mounting the woofers and replace it, with some effort. It's either that or build new sets of cabinets, which would take much longer. Not worried about this set being pretty, just being able to test drivers for updating the design. .

[Jonasz]

The driver unit you reference is most interesting... after a brief confirmation in the Force with the Chancellor, I have ordered two to evaluate, as the published data may fulfill the requirements for an updated Ardent design, and bring it more into line with the characteristics of the Isiris Three Way Design Study. These may most likely replace the 7" Illuminators, given the swept area advantage and well controlled midrange response.

For now, consider that you have rendered a useful service to the Empire...

YW, as a bonus I think they kind of match your helmet with that deep dark black color...

Btw, that's one manly driver, 6kg and almost 11mm xmax is a lot for an 8" unit, I want a couple too... 8)
Looks to be able to cross to a wg tweeter at 1 kHz. :T

[Evil Twin]

YW, as a bonus I think they kind of match your helmet with that deep dark black color...

Btw, that's one manly driver, 6kg and almost 11mm xmax is a lot for an 8" unit, I want a couple too... 8)
Looks to be able to cross to a wg tweeter at 1 kHz. :T

Yes, you have identified it's main virtues, and in the correct order... though technically it is almost a 9" driver.





Though clearly, the engineering behind it is also quite intriguing...

Full use of FEA analysis for the motor design...




And what appears to be a studied approach to improving motor linearity...




We shall soon see if this technological marvel lives up to it's lofty claims, or whether it is merely another 15 minute flash in the pan...

[5th element]

Zaph has measured one of the balanced drive mid/bass units and the performance is respectable.



Firstly a paper type cone without any signs of edge/spider/cone resonances. Nice smooth and extended with only a mild amount of breakup at a very high frequency, clearly this is a stiff blend but with reasonable amount of self damping.



The HD plot is encouraging too, clearly the main breakup node causes a small degree of cone resonance amplification in the HD products, but there is also a peak in the 2nd harmonic that implies a resonance and as you'd expect there is a wiggle in the impedance close up.



Overall the HD is very nice if not the absolute best, but interestingly they are on a par with the alu illuminator. Although the illuminator would probably win at the extremes.

The larger of the two wavecor drivers that Zaph has measured had better 2nd order products than the smaller, which is somewhat expected. From this it stands to reason that the sub driver should have admirable performance where it counts and they certainly do look the part.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for sharing the info- they look pretty decent, all right.

According to UPS tracking, I'll have one of the SW223BD01's tomorrow. Should be interesting to check out...

[5th element]

I think you need to add a line to your signature Jon, that reads

"You can never have enough drivers."

[JonMarsh]

I think you need to add a line to your signature Jon, that reads

"You can never have enough drivers."

Done!

You've just gotta build stuff with 'em.... :B or at least measure them! :W

Thing is, after how the Isiris development has been going, and what I THINK I've learned, I'm jazzed about doing the same thing for the Ardent.

The bottom end is the weak point for the Indra, also, and I think these two possible updates with 8" or 8-3/4" drivers will address it nicely...

[5th element]

According to the stereophile measurements, the Indra is a right pain to drive in the bass. I'm sure that this could have quite a subjective impact on the perceived quality of the bass and would perhaps make them prone to sounding quite different depending on how capable the amplifier is.

Then of course there's the point of no matter how you look at it, there's only so much two 6.5" drivers can do. The wavecor driver is certainly far more capable in that regard and wiring two in series will make them significantly easier to drive.

[JonMarsh]

According to the stereophile measurements, the Indra is a right pain to drive in the bass. I'm sure that this could have quite a subjective impact on the perceived quality of the bass and would perhaps make them prone to sounding quite different depending on how capable the amplifier is.

Then of course there's the point of no matter how you look at it, there's only so much two 6.5" drivers can do. The wavecor driver is certainly far more capable in that regard and wiring two in series will make them significantly easier to drive.

Exacto-mundo!

[Evil Twin]

The Universal Package Service delivered the first test sample... it is even more impressive in the hand, feeling it's mass and darkness, than expected.




If I trust in my Force sense, I believe the performance of this driver will be most satisfactory...

[5th element]

It looks more impressive in your photo than it did on their website too. The angle and the lighting, especially letting us see the support struts on the basket, give off the impression of it being very well made.

I often wonder why the pictures used by Scan/Vifa/Seas et al, are always pretty lack-lustre, you'd figure they'd take some pictures that make their products look as good as possible, but alas. Maybe it's an industry in-joke, supply the crappiest that you can, without them appearing too dire.

I'm looking forwards your, no doubt, upcoming measurements of the beast too, perhaps at several drive levels, like you've done for some of the better performing drivers you've measured, just to see what it can really do. Ie, is that impressive xmax figure really useful, or is it just for show.

[JonMarsh]

It looks more impressive in your photo than it did on their website too. The angle and the lighting, especially letting us see the support struts on the basket, give off the impression of it being very well made.

I often wonder why the pictures used by Scan/Vifa/Seas et al, are always pretty lack-lustre, you'd figure they'd take some pictures that make their products look as good as possible, but alas. Maybe it's an industry in-joke, supply the crappiest that you can, without them appearing too dire.

I'm looking forwards your, no doubt, upcoming measurements of the beast too, perhaps at several drive levels, like you've done for some of the better performing drivers you've measured, just to see what it can really do. Ie, is that impressive xmax figure really useful, or is it just for show.

The overall mechanical design for the basket is what you'd expect (in a good way) for ex Vifa guys; the spider support is open behind, the basket is stiff, but minimally obstructive. PE could learn a thing or two from them; in comparison, the 8" RS210 "sub" driver is not very usable, having a completely solid spider support (no back venting) and a short vertical window that makes venting the rear wave of the driver more difficult than it ought to be. (After I saw that close up and personal, that driver went on the shelf, and didn't even get considered for the Ardent update work).

1 cu ft PE sub enclosures are coming out of storage to facilitate testing. Hopefully I can get everything fabricated today; but I'm also setting up for the tweeter shoot out, and tomorrow will be working on the sub build for GF's HT. A busy weekend, I expect!

I will test at a number of drive levels, measuring near field. Should be interesting- the cone reminds me of RS products (bet it's sourced from the same OEM), and the overall construction is pretty meaty. I suspect this is the kind of support on the bottom end that the C79 and D3004/6640 deserve in this size box. My hopes are up.

[Hdale85]

The Universal Package Service delivered the first test sample... it is even more impressive in the hand, feeling it's mass and darkness, than expected.




If I trust in my Force sense, I believe the performance of this driver will be most satisfactory...

Hmm....~4.8" mounting depth....I wonder if I can fit these in the doors of my car! I've heard of people getting 9" drivers in there, so it's more about the depth lol.

[5th element]

Sounds like you're most certainly making the most of what little free time you've managed to find Jon, that's for sure. These things might be expensive, but you only live once.

If you put one of those in a car door, wouldn't the door vibrate like mad at decent SPLs?

[Hdale85]

Not with proper treatment, at least I'm hoping not lol. There is going to be a lot of dampening material added to said door. Honestly those are probably outside of the budget I was putting for mid-bass duty, but I do plan on some sort of 8".

[JonMarsh]

Overall depth to the front of the basket is about 5", as I measure. Now, these are HEAVY, so that's going to require a serious baffle construction.

Now having all these PE enclosures around is coming in handy- checking in my storage unit, I brought back a couple of 22 liter Cabs in Cherry; one already had the front panel routed for the 8" RS225-8 for test and has an RS225-8 mounted (I think that's what it is... :W the unshielded version), and will also be used to test the RS225-4, (once they get here) as that's close enough to the available volume with two in an Ardent enclosure; the other I'll route this afternoon for the Wavecor 8-3/4".

And, I have a complete build box with all the drivers for a NeoD CC, as I suspected, so I'll pull out the D26CN tweeter and see if we'll get lucky and be able to slip the SB26STCN tweeter in it's place. This new NeoD CC design and build could happen pretty quickly, now- things may be falling into place.

[PMazz]

I'd love to see pics of your Hi-fi warehouse.... err, storage unit.

[Hdale85]

I'd love to win a 5 minutes shopping spree in his "warehouse" 5 min everything you put in a cart you get to keep :B

[JonMarsh]

I'd love to win a 5 minutes shopping spree in his "warehouse" 5 min everything you put in a cart you get to keep :B

You have no idea... RD58's, exodus dipole 15's, Blueprint 12" subs, an HE-15, all the drivers to build an Orion, 4 Aurasounds NS-10-513-4A, at least one of almost every PE RS sub drivers, Zaph's 5", 4 10" aluminum revelators, 16 ribbon tweeters to go with those RD58's- I have a real problem letting go!

[Hdale85]

Yeah if you posted a FS thread I'm sure it would be quite extensive.

[witikon]

Some pics of my version, finally done..

Hello, Beau,

I am from Bulgaria. I very interested your project (as in picture). Please send me detailed specification (types drivers, crossower diagram, cabinets detailed drawings). I want made same as for me.
Sorry for my English.

Thank you.

Anatoly

ab@mformat.ch

[JonMarsh]

You might want to post this in a separate thread, and have an ongoing discussion with Beau; he may not see it in this one. Let me know if you would like me to set up a thread for you and move this post.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for sharing the info- they look pretty decent, all right.

According to UPS tracking, I'll have one of the SW223BD01's tomorrow. Should be interesting to check out...

Now I have an update on the second one, bought from AV Parts Vault in the USA- they are not good at acknowledging orders by email, but after following up with an email last Saturday, I got an email early today that it shipped last week, should be here tomorrow. More info as things develop- the RS225-4 and RS28a are on the way also.

[Beau]

All good Jon, I saw it, (Have you not realized the entire diy community lives vicariously through your daily updates? )

Anatoly I have sent you an email.

[JonMarsh]

Cool, Beau! Appreciate the follow up for Anatoly, as well as the kind words!

[JonMarsh]

Second Wavecor SW223BD01 arrived today from AV Parts Vault. Fairly fast getting here, the only thing a little spooky is that they didn't send me an acknowledgement email or info when it shipped- I followed up by email last Friday and was informed by email that it had shipped last week. This should be fun- hopefully get get a first test box front panel routed to get some initial data this weekend for how a single driver looks in 22L.

Also just printed out all 150 pages of the REW5 PDF manual; been meaning to take a look at this for a long time, always seems to be something else more urgent to do than look at new software!

[JonMarsh]

Time to get busy again...

It's almost May... does that mean it's time for a new Ardent Speaker Camp?

Well, it's definitely time for some revised CAD drawings based around the Wavecor woofers, and some woofer testing to get in progress.

I have test boxes hauled home for both the Wavecor 8-3/4" and the 4 ohm RS225.

I need to drop by Rockler and see what their stock of LBL board looks like, as well as double check my storage unit; I think I have one more 8' x 12" wide board on hand. With my DeWalt DW780 I may be able to do a little nicer on the facets, but that remains to be evaluated.

Plan of record as of today is to finish the Scanspeak 7" pair, (so that I get something useful out of all of this, and as a baseline) and to build a single test cabinet for developing a Wavecor based design. Yes, I do have a solo C90-6-79 for that build. Should I try anything new for the tweeter? The Transducer Labs N28BER looks pretty interesting, but availability may be an issue. The Scanspeak 6640 is a known quantity- a very good quantity... and the 6620 air circ is a good backstop to it at a reasonable price.

That may keep the work down to a more reasonable level of effort... though after doing the Isiris cabinets, the Ardent's look like mini-monitors, and should seem like a breeze to build more of. Everything is relative...

[5th element]

Tweeterwise we need SEAS to actually release their diamond dome

All joking aside though it's going to be very interesting to see how the WC bass unit stacks up. The RS225s are somewhat amazing in terms of a bass driver and in terms of how shockingly good value they are. I mean there are plenty of excellent 3-6" drivers out there but far fewer 8" and especially at low cost that sort of makes the 225 the go to driver for the bottom end of a not-fridge-sized three way.

As I mentioned before the latest 8-12" subs nowadays are getting interesting because they actually have the performance to reach up high enough, to cross over a proper mid driver, and not some mid/bass simply crossed over low at around 100Hz.

Naturally though these subs tend to work well in smaller boxes, which is always my main problem with proper 10-12" drivers, needing unsexy 100 litre boxes to work well. The only downside is sensitivity and possibly impedance, but floor loading and pairs can help to solve that.

I don't see the WC replacing an RS225 anytime soon, but if things work out, I'd expect them to give better results than the illuminator.

It's funny that you'd want to finish a design for the scans if the WC actually ends up being the preferred (and less expensive) design. But then if everything cabinet-wise is sorted for the scans then it seems stupid not to finalise it and give people another option if they can't get the WC.

Just how much work is necessary to get the larger drivers into the cabinet or are you going for a complete rebuild? The front baffle looks wide enough to accommodate the 8"ers, or is it not that simple?

On a more serious note have you considered trying the DXT from SEAS as the tweeter in these, or possibly in the cheaper version? Of all the 104mm dia tweeters I've tried it has sounded the nicest, but then I haven't heard the 6600 or the 6640, I do like wave-guides though. What we really need is for artificial diamond processes to become dirt cheap. Or I wonder if graphene could ever be used in a sandwich type construction, a bit like how carbon fibre is very flexible on it's own, but can become very stiff when used with the right resins or materials. I can see graphene being the new 'craze' material on a number of fronts when it truly becomes commercially viable.

Edit - a little off topic but graphene is apparently about as stiff as diamond and completely impermiable to air... imagine a one atom thick dome!

[TEK]

It's almost May... does that mean it's time for a new Ardent Speaker Camp?

Looking forward to this :-)

Plan of record as of today is to finish the Scanspeak 7" pair

This is a TMWW setup with Scanspeak D3004/662001, C90-6-79 and the Scanspeak 7" pair?

[JonMarsh]

Looking forward to this :-)



This is a TMWW setup with Scanspeak D3004/662001, C90-6-79 and the Scanspeak 7" pair?

Yes, it is- I'd like to have a stereo working set with these, looking at new crossover concept based on lessons learned from the Isiris, and will build a proof of conceptr TMWW with the Wavecor's, but likely just a single speaker to test the design and verify.

[chrismercurio]

Jon,

I'm curious if you have tested the Wavecor SW223BD01?

Best,

[JonMarsh]

Not yet- it's in the queue, but with business travel, the Northern CA DIY, moving the Isiris set to GF's and buying and setting up new HiFi furniture it's not been possibel to get to.

And we're now in "training" for the Sierra Club hike across Northern England, "Free Time" is a true oxymoron until I get back from England around June 18. Got a test cabinet, got drivers, got no time! Weekends are all conditioning hiking events until memorial day weekend, then we're packing up to leave on the 29th.

(work has been something of an issue as usual, too, and of course, I'm getting all kinds of horrified inputs about how could I have possibly scheduled this upcoming time off six month ago when there's so many important things happening now and things I'm being brought into to solve problems that the responsible parties haven't been able to manage...

You know, it's the old "no good deed goes unpunished" routine.

[chrismercurio]

I know you, like most of us, are extremely busy with life outside of the hobby. The hike sounds great...and a girlfriend that will put up with loudspeakers that size is probably a keeper.

Best,

Chris

[JonMarsh]

Talk about conflicted... Kevin's going out of business sale at DIYCABLE!

The Exodus UnAnarchy is back at a bit under $50 each- anyone else think this might be an interesting budget solution for the Ardent, provided you're willing to live with the lower impedance of midwoofers in parallel? Net sensitivity could wind up fairly decent, but in a three way with two 6.4 ohm DCR woofers in parallel we're likely to see no better than 3 ohms for the mid bass efficiency... but when they're gone, they're gone. Might make a killer small three way, with RS52 midrange dome.

I might have to get a pair of these just for a special build of the NeoD CC center channel for GF.

Hope there's some left when I get back from hiking trip!