Ardent Speaker Camp

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15261

    Ardent Speaker Camp

    Well, it's summer time, and a time honored tradition is going to camp. Well, this year I'm not going away to camp in Denver, instead I'm having my own speaker camp here in Northern CA for two weeks. So from time to time I"ll post some candid shots showing what's being worked on, so you guys can pick me over if I don't make enough progress, and laugh at any mess ups that might come along if I get too cocky. :W

    I was so excited about this I woke up at 4AM today and couldn't get back to sleep, so I got up and started working on stuff at 5, taking down a panel clamped up on Sunday, and starting another one.

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    Now I've started veneer prep, and when that's setting up a bit later, I'll start back on updating the CAD drawings with changes I decided on (thicker side panel and a 1/4" thicker front panel, due to changes in the sub panel closest to the front. Yes, we have a major case of OCD, as you'll see as this unfolds.

    Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 18:20 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....
  • CraigJ
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2006
    • 518

    #2
    This is going to be a fun two weeks watching and learning! opcorn:

    Craig

    Comment

    • chrismercurio
      Senior Member
      • May 2007
      • 116

      #3
      Can I visit? I'm in Santa Clara and work in the East Bay.

      Chris

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15261

        #4
        Possibly next week when there's something interesting to look at and I've caught up with some cleaning? :W
        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • chrismercurio
          Senior Member
          • May 2007
          • 116

          #5
          Cool!

          Thank you,

          Chris

          Comment

          • mazurek
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2006
            • 204

            #6
            Is that a thousand dollars in transformers helping to clamp your boards together?

            Comment

            • Dave Bullet
              Senior Member
              • Jul 2007
              • 474

              #7
              Originally posted by mazurek
              Is that a thousand dollars in transformers helping to clamp your boards together?
              I've worked it out. No - the transformers are attached to the baffle. Speakers will have to be dyna bolted to a concrete floor to ensure they don't move. The transformers are going to be used as electromagnetic bucking magnets in a new design by Jon. :rofl:
              Last edited by theSven; 15 May 2023, 10:55 Monday. Reason: Update quote

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15261

                #8
                Dave, that's really close- it's actually like the cyrogenic conductor treatments you read about sometimes, but when I initially install the clamp transformers and just before I pull them off, they have to be pulsed with a carefully calibrated 1.21 gigawatt 20-20 kHz sweep to pre-time-align the molecular phase of the MDF particles.

                And actually, the whole deal is more complicated than you realize, because four of the items are custom built Plitron 15 mH 25A cut core toroidal inductors- and when you hit those babies with 1.21 gigawatts, there's some serious sh*t that comes down!

                Heavy!
                :rofl:


                Oh, and a bit more than $1k....

                For the more conventional builder, bricks or cinder blocks will do or whatever else you have around for convenient weights. Barbells, even. :W
                the AudioWorx
                Natalie P
                M8ta
                Modula Neo DCC
                Modula MT XE
                Modula Xtreme
                Isiris
                Wavecor Ardent

                SMJ
                Minerva Monitor
                Calliope
                Ardent D

                In Development...
                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                Obi-Wan
                Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                Modula PWB
                Calliope CC Supreme
                Natalie P Ultra
                Natalie P Supreme
                Janus BP1 Sub


                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • Dennis H
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Aug 2002
                  • 3791

                  #9
                  and when you hit those babies with 1.21 gigawatts, there's some serious sh*t that comes down!
                  I think you mean jigawatts, Doc Brown.

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15261

                    #10
                    German vs English pronunciation and spelling of course - I sit corrected. :W
                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • CraigJ
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2006
                      • 518

                      #11
                      8O Back to work I say, back to work. gigi, jiga, coulda, shouda... :conveyer: Be very, very quiet, Jon (oops, and Evil Twin) are at work. :storm: Must focus on the prize..

                      Click image for larger version

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                      Last edited by theSven; 15 May 2023, 10:56 Monday. Reason: Update image location

                      Comment

                      • Rolex
                        Senior Member
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 386

                        #12
                        I feel a little embarassed asking this question, but have there been any details "leaked" about this project? I thought I ran across something last week or so, then craig posted the picture above. Are you working towards an Avalon styled speaker?

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15261

                          #13
                          What's going on...

                          Yeah, this is like a badly produced news show where if you haven't seen the previous clips or episodes, you're not likely to have much idea about what is going on...

                          "In our previous episode.... " :B


                          This should fill in the key details, though actually some bits are discussed in my usual irresponsible way in side comments in other threads (shame on me, we moderators should know and behave better...)

                          Beyond the NeoD CC

                          Even that thread title is not exactly a paragon of disclosure, but as ThomasW named it, I can point my finger at him and say "He, it wasn't me- he did it!"

                          The target of the current effort is my second experimental project (SDX-2 Ardent) based on a crossover target derived from the work of Mr. Steen Duelund-

                          Click image for larger version

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                          (Ignore the driver names, they were just placeholders. )

                          in a promising form factor which in it's original commercial incarnation does not reach it's potential, IMO, on several levels. Terrible load impedance (2 ohms in significant parts of the low end), funky crossover matching (or lack thereof) in the bass to midrange transition, with a bumped up midbass and suck out in the crossover region. Oh, and a "ported" design with nearly no output from the port, and response that rolls steadily off below 55 Hz, with zip to zero deep bass. Apart from that, it is a lovely speaker. To look at.

                          So, let's see if it's possible to successfully address these issues. Pride goeth before a fall, so there are certainly some challenges and opportunities to put my foot in it, so to speak- but the challenge is curiously invigorating- once again, I woke up before 4 AM with ideas roiling through my head, and here I am at the computer making notes, finishing plans for todays work, and posting on HTG! :lol:

                          This is screen shot of the basic 3D model, though it's getting tweaked a tiny bit today, and I'm also preparing the grille frame design.


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                          I'm building two pairs, two versions- the "premium" version, SDX-2i, with driver complement of 2-Seas ER189RNX, 1-Accuton C79/6, 1-Scanspeak D3004/662001; and the "budget" version SDX-2a with 2-RS180, 1-RS100-4, 1-Seas 27TBFCG; the midrange cut out will be the same for both, as the RS100-4 will be mounted on an aluminum panel of the same size as the Accuton frame, solving the rear masking issues of the RS100-4, and allowing future upgrades for the midrange.

                          I'll be making detailed 2D piece part drawings as I go along (let's hear it for the "model to sheet" tools in my CAD program!!) that (if this whole thing works as planned) folks can use for their own construction should they be tempted to go down this primrose path. In other words, this will be much more documented than the M8ta, which I NEVER expected anyone to try to build (and documented sketchily as a result), and of which there are about a dozen pairs out in the wilds, much to my surprise. I guess some people like a challenge. I'll be documenting fixture designs and the build process in considerable detail this time. I have a 30+ page Curio file that is part of that development and documentation process so far.

                          Early this morning I'll be unclamping yesterday's side panel layup (layered panel glued together), and changing out the absorbent paper drying on the veneer being softened and flattened yesterday, and unclamping and inspecting the top/forward front panel sub assembly, and gluing up the next one.

                          Then I need to finalize the cabinet changes I decided on last weekend (1/2" increase in total width, 1/4" in depth due to additional lamination panel in front sub panel assembly), do the grille drawing and fiduciary indications transferring to the 3D model and piece part drawings, and start on the facet cut fixture drawing. There's probably something else on my to-do list for today... oh yeah, start construction the second turntable platform if I have time left over, to facilitate assembly and finishing work on a pair simultaneously. And build the midrange cutout fixtures. If there's any time left over at the end of the day, I'll work on the web site.
                          Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 18:21 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                          Obi-Wan
                          Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                          Modula PWB
                          Calliope CC Supreme
                          Natalie P Ultra
                          Natalie P Supreme
                          Janus BP1 Sub


                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • Rolex
                            Senior Member
                            • Mar 2005
                            • 386

                            #14
                            Awesome.... Really looking forward to following this now. THank you for all the details!

                            Comment

                            • Dean100
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 140

                              #15
                              Jon, You better find time for a quick afternoon nap today. With getting up that early and all that work to do. 8O

                              Comment

                              • Hdale85
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 16075

                                #16
                                Was that supposed to be the ER18RNX? I can't find an ER189RNX so I'm thinking yes maybe?

                                Comment

                                • ThomasW
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 10934

                                  #17
                                  Yeap, ER18RNX

                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                  Comment

                                  • dlneubec
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Jan 2006
                                    • 1454

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                    Then I need to finalize the cabinet changes I decided on last weekend (1/2" increase in total width, 1/4" in depth due to additional lamination panel in front sub panel assembly), do the grille drawing and fiduciary indications transferring to the 3D model and piece part drawings, and start on the facet cut fixture drawing. There's probably something else on my to-do list for today... oh yeah, start construction the second turntable platform if I have time left over, to facilitate assembly and finishing work on a pair simultaneously. And build the midrange cutout fixtures. If there's any time left over at the end of the day, I'll work on the web site.
                                    I foresee a hernia in the making or are you putting wheels on them! :W

                                    I'm happy to see someone using the RS100 as a mid. I'm betting it will be excellent. That said, did you see Zaphs tests of the Fountek FR88-EX 3"? It looks like a budget scale winner as well.

                                    When you have both designs built, it would very cool to do some side by side blind auditioning.
                                    Dan N.

                                    Comment

                                    • JonMarsh
                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 15261

                                      #19
                                      Spikes, not wheels, though the latter might be more practical- that's more a ThomasW specialty!

                                      Actually, if all goes well, one pair will be on wheels, I hope to drive them out to ThomasW's in Denver for the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest; some guys in Denver want to hear them, and we usually end up getting together with people that make it in for RMAF from out of town. Best not to put the cart before the horse, got a ways to go to get to that point!

                                      The RS10-4 was selected for the budget attempt a couple of months ago- that FR88-EX looks pretty nice from 300 - 4 kHz, though mounting could be even more of a pain than the RS100-4 - but then with this setup it wouldn't be hard to switch with a different test plate. The RS looks like it has a bit of an advantage working lower, but that's probably not as audible to most people as that upper range harmonic distortion performance.

                                      On the other hand, the CSD behavior looks a bit hashier with the FR88, and I find that's an important factor if you're trying to make a speaker pull a disappearing act- the last three way I was worked on didn't have particularly expensive drivers, but they all had pretty nice CSD behavior, and I'm thinking that may be a factor to pay more attention to. I'm also trying to kill other sources of spurious outputs with the cabinets, to "lower the noise floor" so to speak, have to see how well that correlates listening wise.
                                      the AudioWorx
                                      Natalie P
                                      M8ta
                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                      Modula MT XE
                                      Modula Xtreme
                                      Isiris
                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                      SMJ
                                      Minerva Monitor
                                      Calliope
                                      Ardent D

                                      In Development...
                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                      Obi-Wan
                                      Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                      Modula PWB
                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                      Comment

                                      • Hdale85
                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Jan 2006
                                        • 16075

                                        #20
                                        So do you think these will be ~2k for drivers and parts for the "premium" setup? If so these might actually be inside the budget I have planned for my 2 channel speakers.

                                        Comment

                                        • Bear
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Dec 2008
                                          • 1038

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Dougie085
                                          So do you think these will be ~2k for drivers and parts for the "premium" setup? If so these might actually be inside the budget I have planned for my 2 channel speakers.
                                          Unlikely, would be my guess. A quick estimate of the driver costs alone have them around $800/each. Throw in some wood and veneer, and you are probably north of $1k/each already. Then there is the crossover...
                                          Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                          Comment

                                          • Face
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Mar 2007
                                            • 995

                                            #22
                                            What parts do you have planned for the crossovers?
                                            SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15261

                                              #23
                                              Bears estimate is pretty close. You could save some money going with the D3004/66000 instead, for example. ($50 less each). Or drop to the Seas 27TBFCG, with probably just a tweak on the Lpad; the targets for the treble, midrange, etc, will all be the same. That could get you down to about $890 for the pair for drivers. Then you might be able to squeeze the rest in for $1100 to $1200- depending on crossover build costs, and also on what tools you have on hand. This is a tools intensive project- the only reason I was willing to spend as much as I did on tools was partly because of the second project waiting in the wings, if this one is completed successfully.


                                              Jon, You better find time for a quick afternoon nap today. With getting up that early and all that work to do.
                                              I think you're right about that Dean- I'm just getting ready now to make some sawdust, will probably do a workout and a nap after that! :W
                                              the AudioWorx
                                              Natalie P
                                              M8ta
                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                              Modula MT XE
                                              Modula Xtreme
                                              Isiris
                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                              SMJ
                                              Minerva Monitor
                                              Calliope
                                              Ardent D

                                              In Development...
                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                              Obi-Wan
                                              Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                              Modula PWB
                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • Jonasz
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Nov 2004
                                                • 852

                                                #24
                                                Jon, no chance of a simpler box for a woodworkingly challenged diy'er? :B

                                                Comment

                                                • Hdale85
                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                  • 16075

                                                  #25
                                                  I was talking about minus cabinets. Just crossover parts and drivers. I was looking at up to 2500 for my 2 channel speakers.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • SQdude
                                                    Member
                                                    • May 2007
                                                    • 41

                                                    #26
                                                    Jon how many degree is the front pannel sloped? Also the side pannels how many degree?

                                                    Comment

                                                    • ColoradoTom
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Feb 2006
                                                      • 332

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                      Bears estimate is pretty close. You could save some money going with the D3004/66000 instead, for example. ($50 less each). Or drop to the Seas 27TBFCG, with probably just a tweak on the Lpad; the targets for the treble, midrange, etc, will all be the same. That could get you down to about $890 for the pair for drivers. Then you might be able to squeeze the rest in for $1100 to $1200- depending on crossover build costs, and also on what tools you have on hand. This is a tools intensive project- the only reason I was willing to spend as much as I did on tools was partly because of the second project waiting in the wings, if this one is completed successfully.




                                                      I think you're right about that Dean- I'm just getting ready now to make some sawdust, will probably do a workout and a nap after that! :W

                                                      What fun..... this should be in final stages just about the time I'm ready to start a new project. I was going to redo my M8ta's but I might put that on hold to see how this develops. I was just commissioned to do a bedroom set (cloning a Thos. Moser design) that should be done by late July/early August. If I make three of these with the two M8ta's and add the eight Aurasound 12" subs I might be able to have a pretty decent surround setup :rofl:

                                                      Tom

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 15261

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Face
                                                        What parts do you have planned for the crossovers?

                                                        A smorgasbord, and of course anyone has options to change what they want if they tackle it. I'm going to be testing some previously untried parts (Jantzen C-Coil inductors), too- literally- swept power tests for distortion using dummy loads. I'm suspicious of any cored inductor, though I've designed and used them sparingly in the past. For inductors my normal concern is DCR; it's hard to get AWG 12 wirewound since NorthCreek stopped doing general DIY, so that usually leaves the foil inductors from Jantzen and Alpha core; not because they're foil, but because of the DCR.

                                                        Depending on the circuit location and function, it will be a mix of several types of capacitors, sometimes different kinds in parallel. This is partly because of experiences I've had trying different caps in the NeoD CC crossovers, in two different builds. For inexpensive film caps for LF stuff, probably Jantzen Cross Cap, though I may stay with Clarity SA depending on the cost comparison. The SA's are in a fairly decent spot on the price performance curve. But for something beyond a "standard" cap I'm pretty pleased with the results I've gotten with the Jantzen Z-Superior and Z-Silver. I've heard very good things about the Clarity MR, but for that kind of money in the tweeter circuit, I think I'd try the Duelund VSF. I'm having a bit of a debate with myself, especially as one supplier is having a bit of a sale until June 30.

                                                        Of course, like they say, no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. We'll see what happens...
                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                        Natalie P
                                                        M8ta
                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                        Isiris
                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                        SMJ
                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                        Calliope
                                                        Ardent D

                                                        In Development...
                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                        Obi-Wan
                                                        Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                        Modula PWB
                                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                        Comment

                                                        • BOBinGA
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Mar 2009
                                                          • 303

                                                          #29
                                                          Before you buy the Jantzen C-Coil, have you seen the THD comparisons for inductors at Erse?



                                                          Since they are done by the vendor, you have to take them with a grain of salt, but they certainly look fair. Play the videos for some interesting information.

                                                          -Bob
                                                          -Bob

                                                          The PEDS 2.1 mini system
                                                          My A7 Project - another small desktop speaker
                                                          The B3 Hybrid Dipole - thread incomplete and outdated

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15261

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Jonasz
                                                            Jon, no chance of a simpler box for a woodworkingly challenged diy'er? :B

                                                            Well, Jonas, I will post enough info so that someone who has no idea of how to proceed with a project like this could do it, given the will and access to typical woodworking gear (table saw, routers, etc). Though this design will use dado joints for walls to corners, biscuits, and recessed grooves for brace location, it could be done with just butt joints- but might be trickier to keep aligned going together.

                                                            The way it's presently going together, it will be a bit of work because of the steps required making the front panels and other panel pieces from more readily obtainable MDF sizes. But that's just tedious, not hard. :W

                                                            It would be possible to make a flat front version of this, like some of the things Troels Gravesen does, but it would require new measurements and a different crossover- there are acoustical reasons for going this way, as regards improving the off axis power response. If there's enough interest, maybe I'll build a single flat front box and measure and sim a crossover design.

                                                            I should have at least the "starter" web site up by the end of this two weeks off, what I'm really not sure about is how far I'll be able to get in two weeks of work on two pairs.
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                            Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Jed
                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                              • Apr 2005
                                                              • 3617

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                              I'm really not sure about is how far I'll be able to get in two weeks of work on two pairs.
                                                              I think Buddha said, "slow work takes time." Or was that you?

                                                              Besides, aren't you used to sleep deprivation? I'm looking forward to a fully veneered cabinet by the end of the month.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 15261

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Jed
                                                                I think Buddha said, "slow work takes time." Or was that you?

                                                                Besides, aren't you used to sleep deprivation? I'm looking forward to a fully veneered cabinet by the end of the month.

                                                                Just one? That might be possible... :W Does it have to be finished as well as veneered? Maybe you guys could start a pool...

                                                                Actually, it was Jeno Tihanji, who used to be one of our top power chip designers in Munich (he was Hungarian, though, obviously- ) who was always saying slow work takes time; I've sort of adopted it. On a good day I like to think it means "thorough work takes time", but I think Jeno had a different notion in mind, as his mind was often racing ahead of the rest of the development team. Often I'm conflicted between wanting to sip through a project, and then churning through all the details that come up and realizing you can think of things to do a lot faster than you can do them.... :lol:
                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                Natalie P
                                                                M8ta
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                                                                SMJ
                                                                Minerva Monitor
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                                                                In Development...
                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                Comment

                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 15261

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by BOBinGA
                                                                  Before you buy the Jantzen C-Coil, have you seen the THD comparisons for inductors at Erse?



                                                                  Since they are done by the vendor, you have to take them with a grain of salt, but they certainly look fair. Play the videos for some interesting information.

                                                                  -Bob

                                                                  Thanks, Bob- interesting tests- at levels around 100W and less, the Jantzen has a slight edge, the Erse clearly saturates much later. I wish they'd done some testing above the 100W level and before 500W; I suspect the Jantzen might be OK up to 200 or 300W- more than sufficient for this speaker. OTOH, the distortion of an air core coil is pretty much zero- but DCR.... got some thinking and research to do. The toriodal format of the Jantzen C core should have much less stray flux leakage. Then too, I'd better research price!!
                                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                                  Natalie P
                                                                  M8ta
                                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                                  Isiris
                                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                                  SMJ
                                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                                  Calliope
                                                                  Ardent D

                                                                  In Development...
                                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                                  Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                  Modula PWB
                                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 15261

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by SQdude
                                                                    Jon how many degree is the front pannel sloped? Also the side pannels how many degree?

                                                                    All will be revealed when the plans are published.... :W




                                                                    Seriously, the slope back is 10 degrees, like the M8ta. I'm not sure what you mean by the side panels- they are parallel. The facets at the bottom are actually perpendicular planes to the horizontal; the upper angles are determined by how much we need or can allow the baffle to narrow down towards the tweeter (as I'm using the Scanspeak D3004, it must be a little wider across than the inspiration.) The C13N, which I have, is a bit puny in the distortion and lower frequency range response; it's not a good choice for doing a Duelund derived crossover.
                                                                    the AudioWorx
                                                                    Natalie P
                                                                    M8ta
                                                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                                                    Modula MT XE
                                                                    Modula Xtreme
                                                                    Isiris
                                                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                                                    SMJ
                                                                    Minerva Monitor
                                                                    Calliope
                                                                    Ardent D

                                                                    In Development...
                                                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                    Obi-Wan
                                                                    Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                    Modula PWB
                                                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • SQdude
                                                                      Member
                                                                      • May 2007
                                                                      • 41

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                      All will be revealed when the plans are published.... :W
                                                                      Fair enough

                                                                      Regarding the sides I wasnt sure if the front baffle (holding the drivers) was at a different slant (being less) than the rest of the cabinet (which would be done by adding more layers to the front baffle to make up for the difference). I ask because Im starting my project and im looking for ideas; well Im trying to force myself to start it (27tbfc/g / 18s/8531g00 / Rss315hf ) :P

                                                                      Also what are software you using for the 3D modeling? Google's sketchup is rather lacking.
                                                                      Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 18:22 Sunday. Reason: Update htguide url

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Jed
                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                        • Apr 2005
                                                                        • 3617

                                                                        #36
                                                                        You know a guy is a true speaker nut when his idea of a luxury 2 week vacation is "speaker camp." I love it!

                                                                        By the way I picked up a few Seas Excel W18NXs to test along with a bunch of other drivers. When I get a chance I'll post the results. Still have to mount the L26Roy as well.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                          • 15261

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by SQdude

                                                                          Fair enough

                                                                          Regarding the sides I wasnt sure if the front baffle (holding the drivers) was at a different slant (being less) than the rest of the cabinet (which would be done by adding more layers to the front baffle to make up for the difference). I ask because Im starting my project and im looking for ideas; well Im trying to force myself to start it (27tbfc/g / 18s/8531g00 / Rss315hf ) :P

                                                                          Also what are software you using for the 3D modeling? Google's sketchup is rather lacking.
                                                                          ā€‹


                                                                          I use Shark now, which is a continuation of Concepts Unlimited since they were bought out by Punch software. There are both Windows and Mac versions. They have a lower cost program that's pretty good, too, called ViaCAD; a 2D/3D version for under $100, and a ViaCAD Pro that's close to Shark LT in functionality for ~$500 MSRP, less online at places like Amazon. Very solid 3D modeling engine, can import IGES, SAT, DWG, DXF, etc.

                                                                          That was just a screen capture, not a render, of course. I'll get around to posting renderings later- that's not what I care about. Shark has good high precision model to sheet functionality which makes creating multi-view 2D drawings and sectionals pretty quick and painless.
                                                                          Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 18:22 Sunday. Reason: Update quote
                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                          Natalie P
                                                                          M8ta
                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                                          Isiris
                                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                                          SMJ
                                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                                          Calliope
                                                                          Ardent D

                                                                          In Development...
                                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                                          Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                          Modula PWB
                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 15261

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Jed
                                                                            You know a guy is a true speaker nut when his idea of a luxury 2 week vacation is "speaker camp." I love it!

                                                                            By the way I picked up a few Seas Excel W18NXs to test along with a bunch of other drivers. When I get a chance I'll post the results. Still have to mount the L26Roy as well.
                                                                            I'll be curious to see how those fare in your testing- I've been wondering about the W22NX also for one application, too, but not keenly enough to pop for one to test yet. The motor in the old W22 is very clean, but the cone sure has it's problems, including energy storage starting about 1400 Hz.
                                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                                            Natalie P
                                                                            M8ta
                                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                                            Isiris
                                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                                            SMJ
                                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                                            Calliope
                                                                            Ardent D

                                                                            In Development...
                                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                                            Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                            Modula PWB
                                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Hdale85
                                                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                                                              • Jan 2006
                                                                              • 16075

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Will you be showing how to build the jigs in the website for these? Might be a valuable tool for many. I haven't done much jig building but I've been collecting tools recently and a table saw is high up on my list Thinking about the new Rigid with the granite top that's almost a cabinet saw.

                                                                              Can't wait to see more as this project progresses that's for sure.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • ThomasW
                                                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                                • 10934

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Dougie085
                                                                                Thinking about the new Rigid with the granite top that's almost a table saw.
                                                                                Problem with granite topped saws is the tracks for the miter gauge chip and breakout since the stone is so brittle...

                                                                                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                                                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Hdale85
                                                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                                                  • 16075

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Hmm haven't read that anywhere. I'll have to read up more. It's one of the several I've been looking at though. There is a used Jet cabinet saw for sale locally for 600 bucks that I've been considering as well.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Face
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • Mar 2007
                                                                                    • 995

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                                    I've heard very good things about the Clarity MR, but for that kind of money in the tweeter circuit, I think I'd try the Duelund VSF. I'm having a bit of a debate with myself, especially as one supplier is having a bit of a sale until June 30.
                                                                                    I've tried both, in the same value and in the same speakers. In my experience, MR's image better, throw a larger soundstage, and are more dynamic, but can sound sharp with metal drivers( ). Copper VSF's have better tonality, the best I've heard. What cap do you plan on using in series with the mid? If it's a Jantzen silver or other forward sounding cap, I would recommend the MR up top. If you are using a warm to neutral cap on the mid, I would lean towards the VSF. I found that using the same family of caps on the tweeter and series mid caps give the speaker better top to bottom timbre/tonality matching, especially when mixing drivers of various materials. As always, YMMV.
                                                                                    SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • TacoD
                                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                                      • Feb 2004
                                                                                      • 1078

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                                      Just one? That might be possible... :W Does it have to be finished as well as veneered? Maybe you guys could start a pool...
                                                                                      To save time, I'm always skipping the finishing of the cabinets. Also, if time is really against me I start with only one speaker, to see how things work out. If not than the drivers go on shelf and the cabinets to the dump . Generally, I find the design and prototyping phase the most interesting part of the build.

                                                                                      So I would vote for an unfinished appearance for this project :T . Maybe some forum members, who can build things way faster, will build the design. However, they need the design first.

                                                                                      I'm just interested in your design decisions during the project .

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Evil Twin
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Nov 2004
                                                                                        • 1531

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by TacoD
                                                                                        To save time, I'm always skipping the finishing of the cabinets. Also, if time is really against me I start with only one speaker, to see how things work out. If not than the drivers go on shelf and the cabinets to the dump . Generally, I find the design and prototyping phase the most interesting part of the build.

                                                                                        So I would vote for an unfinished appearance for this project :T . Maybe some forum members, who can build things way faster, will build the design. However, they need the design first.

                                                                                        I'm just interested in your design decisions during the project .

                                                                                        Most reasonable suggestions, on the surface. I thought this way in the past also. But once our industrial spies had reported back and manufacturing process development review was complete, it was concluded that the veneering process must be an integral part of the construction plan for optimum process and results- at least in some critical phases.

                                                                                        So while certain parts can be delayed, some parts must be completed in the early stages. This will become clearer to all as the site becomes available. In this case the whys, wherefores, and how-to's will be provided in full Imperial detail with not only Holonet shots but downloadable blueprints optimized for SuperB print format used in this galaxy, which I understand many consumer photo printers of moderate price can handle.

                                                                                        Also, with two pairs being constructed of nearly identical physical parameters, one cabinet will be initially side tracked for acoustical measurements prior to completing the finishing process.
                                                                                        DFAL
                                                                                        Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                                        A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Evil Twin
                                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                                                          • 1531

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by Face
                                                                                          I've tried both, in the same value and in the same speakers. In my experience, MR's image better, throw a larger soundstage, and are more dynamic, but can sound sharp with metal drivers( ). Copper VSF's have better tonality, the best I've heard. What cap do you plan on using in series with the mid? If it's a Jantzen silver or other forward sounding cap, I would recommend the MR up top. If you are using a warm to neutral cap on the mid, I would lean towards the VSF. I found that using the same family of caps on the tweeter and series mid caps give the speaker better top to bottom timbre/tonality matching, especially when mixing drivers of various materials. As always, YMMV.

                                                                                          At this point the intent is a more neutral presentation, and Jantzen Z-Superior on the midrange and the Deulund VSF on the top is the configuration in planning. Your recommendations are well thought out; in the end the choices do depend on the final goals. Because of the wide range and origin of music this project will be used with, I believe a more neutral presentation may be the most beneficial; were I only listening to classical or acoustic jazz, then an "audiophile" approach with silver and MR caps might be interesting- how do you see the tradeoffs between "neutral" and forward in the capacitor presentation which you have tried?
                                                                                          DFAL
                                                                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                                          Comment

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