"Fundamentals" for a new stand mounted speaker project -what goes around comes around

[JonMarsh]

Oh, and yeah, I've listened to at least half of those cuts from the 50 Years of Atlantic Records, just to hear the vocals from all those classics...

These will work fine for our music playing room monitors, I think! :B

[JonMarsh]

Thinking about this overnight, and decided to rework the tweeter crossover, go for flattening the response on axis in the 2-5 kHz region, which will result in a slight BBC dip off axis. May be the lesser of evils overall... also improved the damping and the attenuation in the stop band a bit.



But I haven't just been a Mac Jockey this morning, since the new 12" blade for the DeWalt arrived yesterday evening, I mounted that and cross cut the previously glued up front panels, top and bottom panels, and the single thickness back panels. Mmmm, love working with a brand new super sharp blade for laminate work! The old blade was used for the entire original Isiris build; considering that, it's in pretty good shape, and would be fine for a lot of kinds of work. I have to say that DWS780 is a great saw, it's a real pleasure to use, though loosening and moving the blade guard out of the way to put in a new blade is a bit finicky.

Now it's pricing out the crossover parts, and getting back to work-work the rest of the day.

[augerpro]

These look freakin' fantastic Jon! Hopefully someone in Denver builds a pair and I can get a chance to hear them!

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the kind words, Brandon! The inspiration from the TAD Model One doesn't hurt at all, but these will go much lower and play louder (well, no one cares about that last bit, right?)

I think these will be the widest bandwidth relatively compact front panel speakers I've ever done. And they are shaping up to be real charmers for both near field and far field work- that Seas C18EN001 takes a little coaxing to get the best out of the coax, but I think I'm getting close to what will do the job. Vocals and other instruments are sounding very sweet and relaxed.

I've also tried not to get carried away with either the cabinet construction and cost or the crossover cost, but that I'm sure is all relative. With a lot of 1.5" LBL, they're not really going to be light weight, but I've tried to focus the strength where it will do the most good...

Now I just have to find a bit of time every other evening or so the next couple of weeks and maybe I'll actually get them done in time...

[ergo]

Hi Jon,

This design is starting to look very good indeed.
Did you choose the Scan PR or the Wavecor one in the end? Or is that choice still bit open.

I just ordered a pair of C18EN001-s myself too. Found a pair from shop in Finland. Rest of Europe seems to be 'sold out'.

With winter closing in here up in north replicating this project seems a more reasonable target than the Ardents which I find very very interesting too. So I'm eagerly following the progress here

Ergo

[JonMarsh]

Hello Ergo,

I chose the scan- that's what I've been testing with- I have both on hand, the revised version of the Wavecor one has OK potential, but unless one was doing a narrow cabinet to the point you couldn't use the scan, it doesn't really make any sense- over here the Scan is also more reasonably priced.

Interesting that the C18EN001 seems "sold out" in Europe- are there a lot of designs being published about it? I sort of got kicked into motion because of Troels having gotten a pair and written a bit about things he might do with them, back in March 2014, but since then, no update from him... gives me a bit of a window, eh? :W I plan to pick up another pair here from Madisound or Solen pretty soon. But they're not quite an impulse purchase, though certainly more reasonable than the SS Be tweeter + Accuton C79!

Stephen Manning and I are also kicking around ideas for a bigger version with one or two of the SDX10's- he's a wiz with SketchUp, and done some very nice concept work so far. He also has some ideas for a Wavecore Ardent like system that has a decidedly Wilson Audio flavor to them.

[JonMarsh]

I pick up that Shelby Lunne Hi Res file and it's really quite nice on the Ardents. Who ever mastered that has her voice hanging in the air forever on "The look of Love". If you are taking the Ardents, nice track to show them off would be "Willie & Laura Mae Jones", lots going on and still the same hanging voice. it should be fun, I wish we had something like that close to go to.

Yeah, I tried that cut on Sunday, added it to my "Hi-Rez Demo" folder. The vocal is special, but the slide guitar parts are pretty cool, also! It's fairly complex midrange stuff that this prototype handles very well regardless of where you're sitting. I put the first cut from the album in the demo folder, too, for the bass and piano as well as the vocal. For demoing in a small room, that's a very useful characteristic.


Since its "High Res", it's OK I guess that it's what many people would consider an audiophile record. But I've got some of my ripped SACD stuff in there, too, like cuts from Abraxas and Tumbleweed Connection, and James Taylor "Gaia" (which sounds HUGELY better than the CD version, which just illustrates what lackluster job most companies did on their CD mastering- I'm pretty sure 90% of the difference in perceived quality on the JT is just due to the difference in the mastering job. The Roundabout cut from Yes on the 50 Years of Atlantic comes in the same category...

[ergo]

Hello Ergo,

I chose the scan- that's what I've been testing with- I have both on hand, the revised version of the Wavecor one has OK potential, but unless one was doing a narrow cabinet to the point you couldn't use the scan, it doesn't really make any sense- over here the Scan is also more reasonably priced.

Interesting that the C18EN001 seems "sold out" in Europe- are there a lot of designs being published about it? I sort of got kicked into motion because of Troels having gotten a pair and written a bit about things he might do with them, back in March 2014, but since then, no update from him... gives me a bit of a window, eh? :W I plan to pick up another pair here from Madisound or Solen pretty soon. But they're not quite an impulse purchase, though certainly more reasonable than the SS Be tweeter + Accuton C79!

Stephen Manning and I are also kicking around ideas for a bigger version with one or two of the SDX10's- he's a wiz with SketchUp, and done some very nice concept work so far. He also has some ideas for a Wavecore Ardent like system that has a decidedly Wilson Audio flavor to them.

Just to double check - that would be the 10'' 26W/0-00-00 - right? I could not find a model reference by quick browse of this thread.

[JonMarsh]

That's right- sorry- it had been discussed specifically in another thread about LF module concepts using the SW223BD02 and the 26W/0-00-00. I've also looked at the 12" version, could see that it might be useful in some cases with some drivers- but that's still pending. Also, the alignments I've been testing where the 26W/0-00 have been modeled work very well in the default configuration as regards mass. The Wavecor does actually come with extra weights and can be tuned to spec.

[sfdoddsy]

Well, it seems I'm joining the C18 club too.

My plans are a little different since I am going to start with a three-way open baffle, probably with passive at the top then active to an 8 or 10 woofer (or woofers).

But I'll be following Jon's journey with great interest.

[JonMarsh]

Welcome aboard, Steve! We have another guy working on open baffle C18, I think he's going custom, and I DO mean custom, DSP route (as in building and programming the DSP hardware). I would personally favor a mix of passive and active, had that intended for the last Arvo project, never got around to finishing it, still have the cabinets and hardware. Some day I'll have to run some numbers on that C18EN001 and see how low it's feasible to go depending on panel size and where you want the true dipole behavior and how much SPL- I think that's going to be some kind of surface curve to describe that properly. Maybe we can figure that out with you, and see what the options are.

[sfdoddsy]

Yes, I'm still debating whether to go variable width baffle to get maximum dipole effect as I did with my Neo10 OBs, or simple Orion style rectangular, which will look better and run deeper. I'm going to cross to a servo sub below 80Hz.

More importantly, I need to find some woofers which match the cool aesthetics of the C18.

[JonMarsh]

Yes, I'm still debating whether to go variable width baffle to get maximum dipole effect as I did with my Neo10 OBs, or simple Orion style rectangular, which will look better and run deeper. I'm going to cross to a servo sub below 80Hz.

More importantly, I need to find some woofers which match the cool aesthetics of the C18.

That last part isn't easy to do! Especially if you want 80Hz on a dipole!

[Face]

More importantly, I need to find some woofers which match the cool aesthetics of the C18.

Finding a match in tough will be tough, there are a few silver cones out there though(Infinity, JL Audio, Alpine, Acoustic Elegance).

That last part isn't easy to do! Especially if you want 80Hz on a dipole!

Cardioid may be easier at those frequencies.

[sfdoddsy]

I won't be listening to these at massive volumes since it is a living room system. The Seas W22 in my old Orionesque OBs and the Dayton RS225 in my bedroom OBs could both be crossed at 80Hz, but I'd be happier with a 10 inch like the Peerless SLS in my main system. The difficulty is finding a white or metal 10 inch woofer, as opposed to a sub. Or maybe the M8a doubled up?

[JonMarsh]

Well, there's always the Seas Excel W26FX-001 if your pockets are deep enough... not stocked by Madisound, lead-time is about six weeks.



It should get the job done, and looks like the magnet structure isn't too awful big or heavy, either.

[Face]

Well, there's always the Seas Excel W26FX-001 if your pockets are deep enough... not stocked by Madisound, lead-time is about six weeks.



It should get the job done, and looks like the magnet structure isn't too awful big or heavy, either.

I see these pop up used on DIYA from time to time.

[sfdoddsy]

Seems a bit of a waste to pay that much and only use it from 80 to 300 or so, but it is the prettiest 10" driver. What I'd really like is a cheap 10" Accuton. 😄

[Juhazi]

SEAS L26ROY isn't a princess, but the cone matches with C18 well https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...1001-04-4-ohm/



Madisound has special offer for L26, only 139,- now - just paint the plug white! https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...m-cone-woofer/

[JonMarsh]

Seems a bit of a waste to pay that much and only use it from 80 to 300 or so, but it is the prettiest 10" driver. What I'd really like is a cheap 10" Accuton. ��

Sure, Steve, and you probably are familiar with the quote about people in hell wanting ice water, too... equally likely! :W

Problem I see is that when Accuton does "cheap" drivers, things start to get rather un-special, though the price remains pretty high still. Un-special in terms of harmonic distortion and motor behavior. They've been like Eton in the past, some great cones on some products, but took a while to do good motors. new Eton series coming out, but they probably won't have white or silver cones...

[5th element]

Seems a bit of a waste to pay that much and only use it from 80 to 300 or so, but it is the prettiest 10" driver. What I'd really like is a cheap 10" Accuton. 😄

300hz and down is where that driver is at its best though...

new Eton series coming out, but they probably won't have white or silver cones...

Actually Jon...



And all of accutons drivers have always been wildly over priced. Their only good cone drivers tend to be the neo ones which cost ridiculous amounts and are certainly not priced based off of material costs. If they'd improve their ferrite motors that would be a start most other companies have stellar ferrite overhung motors.

[csmielke]

Jon,
I completely agree with your comments on the 50 Years Atlantic Records disk. My copy arrived today and what great fun listening tonight. I have an annual meeting to plan at our local sailing club and many of the cuts will be included in the evenings music.
Thanks
Chris

[BobEllis]

What Chris said. Nice recording.

[johngalt47]

How high could you crossover the L26ROY?

SEAS L26ROY isn't a princess, but the cone matches with C18 well https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...1001-04-4-ohm/



Madisound has special offer for L26, only 139,- now - just paint the plug white! https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...m-cone-woofer/

[5th element]

How high could you crossover the L26ROY?

Pretty high. From what I remember Jed measured them and they have low THD up until the point you'd usually expect to see a peak in the third harmonic due to the cones resonance. It occurs at about 3.7kHz, so expect a peak at around 1.2kHz. I'd probably say 700-800Hz with a 4th order acoustic filter if you wanted to push it. But realistically 500Hz would be a safer bet.

[JonMarsh]

Jon,
I completely agree with your comments on the 50 Years Atlantic Records disk. My copy arrived today and what great fun listening tonight. I have an annual meeting to plan at our local sailing club and many of the cuts will be included in the evenings music.
Thanks
Chris

That's cool! :T

Isn't it strange how something like that can go virtually unnoticed and under appreciated for 17 years! Long out of print I'm sure, but certainly a fun and lucky discovery, including some of the cleanest versions of the really old stuff like the Coasters, Bobby Darin, Sam and Dave, etc. I can readily imagine it being a fun disk to play at an event like you describe...

[ergo]

Hi Jon,

I read from Burning amp thread that you might need to freeze speaker projects for a while... if so, sad to hear that, but perfectly understandable.
I did receive my pair of C18EN001, so now sourcing the woofer + PR is next and then the box build.

Would you be willing to share the Sketchup project file itself? I have used Sketchup and I'm also trying to learn Rhino in parallel which can import Sketchup files too.
I would start preparing for my own box build in parallel - probably will get around building it in November.

Will be travelling to 'your side of the world - to LA' for a week with family. I'll hope to come and soak up some sun and gather energy for the build
In Estonia it was +5deg celsius today morning already, so getting bit chilly here and we see less of sun every day.

Ergo

[sfdoddsy]

My C18s arrived today too. They are certainly pretty things. With that shiny rear they look made for OB use.

[JonMarsh]

Hi Jon,

I read from Burning amp thread that you might need to freeze speaker projects for a while... if so, sad to hear that, but perfectly understandable.
I did receive my pair of C18EN001, so now sourcing the woofer + PR is next and then the box build.

Would you be willing to share the Sketchup project file itself? I have used Sketchup and I'm also trying to learn Rhino in parallel which can import Sketchup files too.
I would start preparing for my own box build in parallel - probably will get around building it in November.

Will be travelling to 'your side of the world - to LA' for a week with family. I'll hope to come and soak up some sun and gather energy for the build
In Estonia it was +5deg celsius today morning already, so getting bit chilly here and we see less of sun every day.

Ergo

I just downloaded Sketchup for my Macbook pro, because after loading El Capitan, my demo license expired early on the Mac Pro. Sure, I'll share the drawing file! Email?

Yeah, 5 C is a bit nippy, we're still seeing temps in the 38-40 C area here in Northern CA! I hope you enjoy your California sojourn!

I've got the parts to build and test the modified tweeter crossover, hope to find a spare hour or two sometime this weekend to get that done. Then, it's a question of finding a bit of time here and there, and getting things setup-

The Tough Shed we put up is coming along nicely- there is still a lot of exterior painting to be done before the rainy weather set's in, but it's completely primed and some walls are mostly finished with painting, though some touch up on trim is needed. I'll probably bring my heavy beech wood working bench over here soon, and a shop vac too for clean up and dust control- part of the time this will be a wood working space, as a lot of storage can be done in the overhead loft without interfering with work (loft is at 7 ft height).

PM me your email, and I'll send the SketchUp plans. I'm going to go ahead and buy the Pro versions, partly because it seems a good way for plans and concept interchange with several forum members; I won't abandon my Shark for hard core solid modeling, but I can see the usefulness of SketchUp for getting ideas roughed out quickly- it has a very different and more flexible working style which comes from being a surface modeler, I suppose.

[JonMarsh]

My C18s arrived today too. They are certainly pretty things. With that shiny rear they look made for OB use.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24560[/ATTACH]

Yes, they are nice looking shiny baubles, and with a bit of effort, nice sounding, too!

[ergo]

Yeah, I've been doing speaker box quick plans and some room acoustic models with Sktechup, while my wife has drawn up our house from inside out with the in and outside kitchen plans, terraces etc. Very nice and flexible software in many ways.
Only sides where it falls short is making plans that need to be CNC milled later. May be newer pro builds export circles and arcs better but last I tried some years ago on the trial the circle export to DXF made a HUGE difference in the G code for CNC - all circles were still punch of small lines.... but then again - the name says it's sketch tool and that it does well indeed.

Ergo

[JonMarsh]

That's kind of how I'm looking at it- a fast prototype drawing generator. It's not going to make me give up Shark, which can do both surface and solid modeling, and has an excellent 3D to 2D automatic transfer generator, but I certainly see the utility on several levels of using SketchUP, particularly for concept generation and sharing info with other guys on the forum.

[JonMarsh]

More parts have arrived- 12TC and 8TC cable from Parts Connexion in Canada, expect the binding posts tomorrow and some other bits tomorrow, and have the crossover parts to build the new tweeter test crossovers.

The Fuel Air Explosives training is finished and went well, as well as some other special meetings today, so tomorrow I may even try to take a half day comp time in the afternoon and work on the tweeter crossover test board. Some things about project timing and plans also got sorted out, and I'm feeling good about that- will still be busy next week, just found out I have a meeting at Google on the 13th to discuss very high frequency LLC converter solutions, that could be interesting.

More interesting would be figuring out a little time to do some panel routing. I'm probably taking apart my beech workbench from Livermore and bringing it to the ToughShed in Danville this weekend. it has a really great flat hard work surface, I love it- used it extensively for the Isiris.

[JonMarsh]

Bummer- turns out I'm missing the 1.2 mH initial shunt inductor, somehow didn't re-order those in the 2nd batch. Got two more of those on order, now, but won't have any tweeter crossovers built this weekend.

[5th element]

Wind your own Jon!

[JonMarsh]

My coil winder and wire is in Denver, with ThomasW, otherwise that's exactly what I'd do!

Actually, I might even have close values in my storage unit in Livermore, but just don't have the time to go hunting that down...

I wil see if I can use the little bit of free time this AM to do some baffle routing.

Last week at work went well, but now I've got a surprise meeting coming up at Google this Wednesday. All Area 51 stuff, you know, GaN, matrix transformer converter configurations for LLC, etc. Should be interesting....

[sfdoddsy]

Let me know if I should toddle off to my own thread, but I whipped up a test baffle and did some quick measurements. These are with a temporary crossover (3rd order 2.5K) I picked up on eBay. There is no EQ boost or dipole peak cuts. The RS225 isn't wired up.

[JonMarsh]

That's not looking too bad! Have you simulated the crossover you picked up, just to see how it should be interacting with the drivers? I do suggest you consider the possibility of an LR6 like mine for the mid to tweeter- then EQ the low end of the midrange and do your other stuff active?

No worries having this discussion in the thread- it's not an official build thread, anyway, more a "concept engineering" thread for solutions with the C18EN001, so I consider your experiment quite relevant.

How does it sound to you? Have you listened to any program?

[JonMarsh]

WARNING: Front panel width intended to be 12"

Well, I started going over the dimensions one more time, in prep for a few more rips and cross cuts (trying to squeeze in the side panels and front to rear interior baffles early this AM), and it looks like I may not have gotten the overall width correct, (somehow, it looks like 12-31/64" since my target was 12", to match the LBL boards readily available, but it looks from one dimension like the actual model may be wider. (possibility that the dimension tool latched on to the wrong data point, and the measurement is skewed).

I'll be getting a "for real" Sketchup license in about a week, meanwhile I'll try to find the time to pull this into Maker on my Macbook Pro and check it out.

Just a heads up, I don't figure anyone is rushing out to build cabinets off the previously posted plans, but you never know... as I learn more about SketchUp from my books and tips from Stephen Manning, it wouldn't surprise me if I just completely re-draw this from scratch.

Some things went very well at work last week, and it's looking like life may not be too bad after this family issue to work with, and working weekends seems to be going away- have a more sensible plan for a key project, now.

In vaguely related news, I'm updating the Windows 7-64 partition as I write on my 2010 (legacy) Mac Pro to Windows 10- sure hope I don't end up regretting doing that! I waited until after these two recent work projects were finished, as it's my workhorse Windows CAD machine, running SIMPLIS/SIMetrix, Altium Designer, MathCAD, LspCAD, LTspice (in Windows; I also run it in OS X on my 2013 Mac Pro), and of course, absolutely vital software like Witcher 3. THAT better not get messed up with this "upgrade"!

[sfdoddsy]

Thanks Jon. I only have one speaker hooked up for testing but they sound very promising even with the cheap-ass crossover. Very smooth and coherent in any listening position, which is what I was after. I'm still deciding about crossovers. It would be nice to be able to go three way passive and then EQ actively so I can use just one amp, but I do have a bunch of MiniDSPs and some spare amps if I decide to go full active or some combination.

To complicate things, my sweet partner doesn't mind the looks too much (although she prefers the Maggies), but she doesn't want them to be as low on the wall as they are now in case kids fiddle with them. This would mean mounting them much higher. So I need to move them up and see what that does to the response.

[JonMarsh]

Well, that's the beauty of the coincident drivers, big horizontal window, and big vertical window. That's a big reason why I started these to use as demo speakers for the electronics project for work-

one of our marketing guys tried to use his Energy speakers to demo one of the IR Class D demo amplifiers, and I'd pointed out to him that they had an issue with crossover phase regardless of their marketing speak about their unified tweeter/midwoofer construction, and that any thing below ear level on the tweeter you get a suck out in the crossover region (identified in Stereophile review, God Bless John Atkinson), so of course he put them on a low table, and of course, between that and the loose port tuning and peaky tweeter and peaking 1kHz response in the midrange, well, they really didn't sound very good, and that's the charitable/diplomatic way of putting it, unfortunately.

I mean, we all know that there's a lot more care and effort that goes into similar sized DIY projects, especially the crossovers, given the cost constraints of commercial speaker markups, but it is startling to be confronted with that- I mean, they didn't sound nearly as neutral or clear as even my computer speakers, a pair of AudioEngine A5. He was using headphone output from his HP laptop to drive the amp, which he said sounded better than the other source components he had.

[sfdoddsy]

I've mounted the speaker high enough to avoid fingers, and did a quick and dirty EQ using the RS225 for the bass. I just ran it in parallel so there no crossover on the RS225, but the combo does get down to 90hz or so which is what I need. It needed considerably less EQ than my Orions, which I assume is because the nib wall it is mounted on extends the baffle.

It sounds a little weird with the soundstage up so high, but the dispersion of the C18 certainly works as advertised.

We'll see what my darling says.

[JonMarsh]

I take it you mean what your darling says about the esthetics?

Well, what you've done so far certainly qualifies for "proof of concept", though I imagine getting that RS225 a bit more band limited won't hurt the sound any... :W

I sneaked in a little time on Saturday, got the backs cut out, cut the tooling grade phenolic coated BB ply for the sides, got front and back baffles routed for the drivers, cut the inner brace/baffle from BB ply, and of course, in the process, identified a few minor issues with the drawings, but nothing I couldn't work around. Took pics for the official build thread, whenever that happens!

All of Sunday was spent evaluating the entries for the Burning man crossover contest, which meant creating a design template with the correct front panel layout and driver offset in LspCAD, then creating each of the 8 designs and evaluating them. yes, for me, there was a clear winner, but maybe that's because that entry seemed to be channeling my basic planned crossover design for the CatherineZ speaker.

It will be interesting to see what the other judges pick, as they are solid representatives of what I would call the established midwestern DIY guys.

[sfdoddsy]

My darling has agreed we can keep the C18 speakers, which is nice after spending over $1000 on the drivers. So now I just have to decide on bass drivers and crossovers. At the moment I am leaning towards the Seas L26 RFX, or a pair of HiVi M8s, for aesthetic reasons as much as anything else. I could also go a single Seas W22 but am a little worried about displacement.

It would be nice if there was alternate that looked good with its bum naked the way the C18 does, something like the Scanspeaks but larger and with a silver cone.

That leaves the crossover. I'm tossing up between a simple hybrid LR4 passive on the top with active to the woofer and EQ for everything done by a MiniDSP, but am also pondering a simple three way passive using LR4s and the MiniDSP to simply provide EQ.

[Steve Manning]

In vaguely related news, I'm updating the Windows 7-64 partition as I write on my 2010 (legacy) Mac Pro to Windows 10- sure hope I don't end up regretting doing that! I waited until after these two recent work projects were finished, as it's my workhorse Windows CAD machine, running SIMPLIS/SIMetrix, Altium Designer, MathCAD, LspCAD, LTspice (in Windows; I also run it in OS X on my 2013 Mac Pro), and of course, absolutely vital software like Witcher 3. THAT better not get messed up with this "upgrade"!

Boy you are in for a whole different look and feel going from Widows 7 to 10. I have not used 10 yet but Windows 8 was a big change, especially them getting rid of the old desk top. Found a fix for that though.