Anthology late stage build

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  • Chris~H
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2006
    • 27

    Anthology late stage build

    Hi all,

    I'm really poor at documenting my build progress, but thought I should at the very least post up where I'm at in the process in case it helps someone else. And of course, to give thanks to Jim and Curt for providing the details of a fine DIY speaker. With that said; Thank you!

    Ok so where I'm at, one speaker is almost complete minus the final sanding, filling, and veneering. The second speaker is almost shelled, need to install the crossovers, add foam, button up the cabinet, and mount the drivers. So far this has been a fun project that has allowed me to start doing some woodworking again, so it's awesome in that regard. It's probably been 20 plus years and I had forgotten how much I enjoy it. Without further ado, here are some pics. ('Cause we know it didn't happen without pics)

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    Chris
    Last edited by theSven; 16 April 2023, 10:05 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
  • Chris~H
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2006
    • 27

    #2
    Apparently trying to use Flickr through my phone is less than spectacular. I'll give it a go tomorrow when on a PC.

    Chris

    Comment

    • TH-1
      Member
      • Jun 2017
      • 41

      #3
      Anthology late stage build

      Subscribed. I really enjoy mine, and think you'll be quite happy. For pics, I just posted mine through the Tapatalk app. Super easy.


      Ken

      Comment

      • Chris~H
        Junior Member
        • Feb 2006
        • 27

        #4
        Thanks TH, I really enjoyed your build thread as well. It kicked me in the hiney to get moving on this and post up the progress. Let's try Tapatalk images.

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        Chris

        Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
        Last edited by theSven; 16 April 2023, 10:01 Sunday. Reason: Update image location

        Comment

        • TH-1
          Member
          • Jun 2017
          • 41

          #5
          Well you’ve got most of the hard stuff out of the way. Looks great!

          Comment

          • Chris~H
            Junior Member
            • Feb 2006
            • 27

            #6
            Thanks Ken!

            Tapatalk is way too easy for images

            I'm hoping that I'll have both done this weekend as I have a stack of Schiit showing up on Saturday. Gumby/Freya/Vidar combo.

            Chris

            Comment

            • Jim Holtz
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Mar 2005
              • 3223

              #7
              Excellent job Chris!:T

              I'm looking forward to hearing your listening impressions.

              Jim

              Comment

              • Chris~H
                Junior Member
                • Feb 2006
                • 27

                #8
                Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                Excellent job Chris!:T

                I'm looking forward to hearing your listening impressions.

                Jim
                Thanks Jim,

                With very limited time to listen so far and all new front end equipment, my initial impressions are quite favorable. The soundstage is spooky wide on good material. I've got them playing in the background to help with break in and give them a better listen later this week. I've never heard "Tennis Court" reproduced so well and it's just going to get better.

                Thanks!
                Chris

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                Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
                Last edited by theSven; 16 April 2023, 10:06 Sunday. Reason: Update image location

                Comment

                • TH-1
                  Member
                  • Jun 2017
                  • 41

                  #9
                  Anthology late stage build

                  That’s a very nice looking setup. I like the angled ceiling, must help with the modes a bit?


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                  Comment

                  • Chris~H
                    Junior Member
                    • Feb 2006
                    • 27

                    #10
                    Thanks Ken,

                    I'm not sure if the angled ceiling helps or not, but the room does pretty well for audio. Foam insulation top, bottom, and sides. It's about 14'x40'x8' in size.

                    It's still a mess as it was my son's play room that is being repurposed to daddy's play room. [emoji3] Hope to have it all rearranged next weekend.

                    Chris

                    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

                    Comment

                    • Chris~H
                      Junior Member
                      • Feb 2006
                      • 27

                      #11
                      So, I have a few hours listening to these now and I'm not sure what exactly I'm hearing. Keep in mind that my entire setup is new. Full Schiit front end and of course the new Anthology speakers. I will say that this is the clearest system that I have ever owned. The separation and soundstage is ridiculously good. I really like the voicing done on these as it does fit my tastes very well; a little extra on the bottom end, strong mids, and airy highs.

                      With that said it seems to be lacking a certain punch, not from the bass per say, but more of a snare drum standpoint. Also I'm not sure if I'm perceiving a lack of decibels due to the clarity, but I do not believe that I'm getting near 115 db output from my system. I've had several home theaters that can play full reference levels of 121 db, but those were not nearly as clean as the Anthologys.

                      I'm beginning to think that my new Vidar amp is limiting the Anthologys. In both stereo output and monoblock setup I can only play them near full output for 20 and 50 minutes respectively, before faulting the amp on over temp. (I think that's what it's shutting down for as it is getting extremely hot to the touch. Still waiting on the official response from tech support) Also I don't notice much if any difference from stereo to monoblock. To be fair it's hard to compare since I'm only driving one speaker in mono.

                      What type of power can these speakers handle and should I start searching for a high current amplifier to replace the Vidar with? Theoretically the Vidar should be delivering about 150 watts per channel since these are quasi 6 ohm speakers. I'm considering a Nord One MP if tech support tells me I'm driving the amp too hard.

                      Even with the hiccups on my power delivery I'm very happy with the risk/reward that the Anthologys are providing. These may not be my end game speakers, but they will absolutely satisfy my needs for the immediate future. They also might get a lot closer with a better amp??? Thank you Jim and Curt for your commitment to helping out the DIY audio community. At least from me I very much appreciate it.

                      Chris

                      Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

                      Comment

                      • Jim Holtz
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 3223

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Chris~H
                        So, I have a few hours listening to these now and I'm not sure what exactly I'm hearing. Keep in mind that my entire setup is new. Full Schiit front end and of course the new Anthology speakers. I will say that this is the clearest system that I have ever owned. The separation and soundstage is ridiculously good. I really like the voicing done on these as it does fit my tastes very well; a little extra on the bottom end, strong mids, and airy highs.

                        With that said it seems to be lacking a certain punch, not from the bass per say, but more of a snare drum standpoint. Also I'm not sure if I'm perceiving a lack of decibels due to the clarity, but I do not believe that I'm getting near 115 db output from my system. I've had several home theaters that can play full reference levels of 121 db, but those were not nearly as clean as the Anthologys.

                        I'm beginning to think that my new Vidar amp is limiting the Anthologys. In both stereo output and monoblock setup I can only play them near full output for 20 and 50 minutes respectively, before faulting the amp on over temp. (I think that's what it's shutting down for as it is getting extremely hot to the touch. Still waiting on the official response from tech support) Also I don't notice much if any difference from stereo to monoblock. To be fair it's hard to compare since I'm only driving one speaker in mono.

                        What type of power can these speakers handle and should I start searching for a high current amplifier to replace the Vidar with? Theoretically the Vidar should be delivering about 150 watts per channel since these are quasi 6 ohm speakers. I'm considering a Nord One MP if tech support tells me I'm driving the amp too hard.

                        Even with the hiccups on my power delivery I'm very happy with the risk/reward that the Anthologys are providing. These may not be my end game speakers, but they will absolutely satisfy my needs for the immediate future. They also might get a lot closer with a better amp??? Thank you Jim and Curt for your commitment to helping out the DIY audio community. At least from me I very much appreciate it.

                        Chris

                        Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
                        Hi Chris,

                        I'm pleased that you're enjoying many aspects of the Anthology's sound quality.

                        The Anthology's dip to 4 ohms at 70-90 Hz. but for the most part are about a 6 ohm load over the rest of it FR. Running you amp in Mono (bridged) mode makes an 8 ohm load look like 4 ohms to the amp and a 6 ohm load look like 3 ohms so I agree that you're over stressing the amp and more power would help. The Anthology's have around 88 db sensitivity. Working the math for power requirements works out to 512 watts for 115 db capability. however, that maximum should never be more than a peak db rather than steady state.

                        Just for giggles, I calculated the 121 db you spoke of and it would require 2048 watts of power and would cause hearing pain and potential hearing damage per the chart I've pasted in below. It would also almost instantly destroy the speaker drivers. That high of volume would require line arrays for home speakers.

                        Quiet - 50 - Quiet suburb, conversation at home, Private office
                        60 - Normal conversation (3-5 feet), sewing machine, typewriter.
                        Annoying - 70 - Freeway Traffic at 50 feet, vacuum cleaner
                        75 - Typical car interior on highway
                        Loud - 80 - Garbage disposal, dishwasher, average factory, Telephone dial tone,Noisy office
                        16 hours - 85 - City Traffic (inside car).
                        8 Hours - 90 - Power drill, shop tools, Busy urban street, diesel truck, food blender
                        6 Hours - 92 - Clarinet, Oboe at 10 feet
                        4 Hours - 95 - Subway train at 200 feet
                        3 Hours - 97 - French Horn at 10 feet
                        2 Hours - Very Loud - 100 - Jet takeoff 1000 feet, Outboard motor, farm tractor, garbage truck, Very heavy Traffic
                        1.5 Hours - 102 - Motorcycle
                        1 Hour - 105 - Power mower
                        108 - Home Theater (loud peaks)
                        0.5 Hours - 110 - Chainsaw, pneumatic drill, typical rock concert, Steel Mill, riveting, auto horn at 3 feet
                        0.25 Hours - 115 - Jackhammer
                        0 Hours - Pain threshold - 120 - Loud thunderclap, typical live rock music
                        Hearing damage occurring - 125 - Pneumatic riveter at 4 feet
                        Ear drum distortion - 130 - Jet takeoff (300 feet), Noise level during a stock car race.
                        Permanent hearing damage - 132 - Very loud rock concert, 50 feet in front of speakers
                        140 - Gun muzzle blast

                        I hope you enjoy the Anthology's. They have great sound and dynamics for an affordable price.

                        Jim

                        Comment

                        • Chris~H
                          Junior Member
                          • Feb 2006
                          • 27

                          #13
                          Thanks Jim,

                          Please don't take my comments as knocking on the Anthology's. So far they are a superb sounding set of speakers. I'm currently trying to figure out if I have an issue with my amp, or if the Anthology's are just that clean that I can't tell how loud they really are. I'm going to have to dig through some old gear and see if I can locate my Radio Shack db meter.

                          I'm very cognizant of the potential for hearing loss at elevated db levels. My comment of 121 db was referring to peak transients on a 5 channel HT and 4 sonotube subs in a few different previous systems. (The first time watching Star Wars Episode 1 I almost soiled myself when the ship exploded) I'm in no way shape or form looking for a pair of speakers that can sustain 121 or even 115 db levels. I mentioned it more in reference to the snare drum comment and I thought I read where the Anthology's peak around 115. Sometimes I like to feel my music as much as hear it.

                          This still leaves me with wondering why the Vidar amp is going into protection. It is rated @ 4ohms in stereo mode, but I suspect you are correct that my listening habits are going to require more power than it can provide.

                          Again, my hats off to you and Curt as these are some very nice speakers that blow away some other sub 1K speakers I've owned.

                          Thank you,
                          Chris

                          Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

                          Comment

                          • TH-1
                            Member
                            • Jun 2017
                            • 41

                            #14
                            Anthology late stage build

                            Hi Chris,

                            Could this be floor bounce or boundary bounce related? A snare drum is a neat instrument whose FR starts just above 100 Hz and fundamentally carries to around 250Hz or so with harmonics that extend well above. 4000Hz.

                            In my room, I’ve measured a minor dip with 4 different speaker models around 150-170Hz, which I assume is either a null or room related. This includes the Anthologys. Measuring the TM speakers on a taller stand changed things a bit, as did a much smaller room, that’s why I’m speculating. My mic is calibrated.

                            Here are two speakers overlayed, for example, the louder one is an MTM with the same drivers as bookshelf TM.

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                            The dip is compounded by modal peaks on either side, so it sounds more pronounced than it really is. A bit of placement adjustment and bass traps/ acoustic treatment help, but I find the easiest thing to do is use a touch of EQ.

                            I could be way off though, and don’t want to hijack.

                            Ken
                            Last edited by theSven; 16 April 2023, 10:07 Sunday. Reason: Update image location

                            Comment

                            • Jim Holtz
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 3223

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Chris~H
                              Thanks Jim,

                              Please don't take my comments as knocking on the Anthology's. So far they are a superb sounding set of speakers. I'm currently trying to figure out if I have an issue with my amp, or if the Anthology's are just that clean that I can't tell how loud they really are. I'm going to have to dig through some old gear and see if I can locate my Radio Shack db meter.

                              I'm very cognizant of the potential for hearing loss at elevated db levels. My comment of 121 db was referring to peak transients on a 5 channel HT and 4 sonotube subs in a few different previous systems. (The first time watching Star Wars Episode 1 I almost soiled myself when the ship exploded) I'm in no way shape or form looking for a pair of speakers that can sustain 121 or even 115 db levels. I mentioned it more in reference to the snare drum comment and I thought I read where the Anthology's peak around 115. Sometimes I like to feel my music as much as hear it.

                              This still leaves me with wondering why the Vidar amp is going into protection. It is rated @ 4ohms in stereo mode, but I suspect you are correct that my listening habits are going to require more power than it can provide.

                              Again, my hats off to you and Curt as these are some very nice speakers that blow away some other sub 1K speakers I've owned.

                              Thank you,
                              Chris

                              Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
                              Hi Chris,

                              No worries! I didn't take your comments as negative in any way.

                              When you mentioned 121 db I got worried that it was a target for regular listening. A couple Statements builders got carried away demoing them in very large basements and blew the ribbons at 117 db from about 20' back so I get nervous when builders start talking about extremely high SPL's. Other than that, I don't know of any torture tests that cranked that high for extended periods of time.

                              Yes, the Statements, Anthology's and Bordeaux's should all be capable of 115 db peaks without issue but no guarantee since room size, music content etc. all play a part in maximum SPL.

                              Honestly, we design for sound quality with a normal playing volume of 80 - 85 db. I design for myself since that's where I listen the most with the occasional "crank it up" to shake the windows a bit. I'm 69 and my 25 year old daughter tells me its too loud in her bedroom on the 2nd floor.

                              Anyway, enjoy the Anthology's!

                              Jim

                              Comment

                              • Chris~H
                                Junior Member
                                • Feb 2006
                                • 27

                                #16
                                Originally posted by TH-1
                                Hi Chris,

                                Could this be floor bounce or boundary bounce related? A snare drum is a neat instrument whose FR starts just above 100 Hz and fundamentally carries to around 250Hz or so with harmonics that extend well above. 4000Hz.

                                In my room, I’ve measured a minor dip with 4 different speaker models around 150-170Hz, which I assume is either a null or room related. This includes the Anthologys. Measuring the TM speakers on a taller stand changed things a bit, as did a much smaller room, that’s why I’m speculating. My mic is calibrated.

                                Here are two speakers overlayed, for example, the louder one is an MTM with the same drivers as bookshelf TM.



                                The dip is compounded by modal peaks on either side, so it sounds more pronounced than it really is. A bit of placement adjustment and bass traps/ acoustic treatment help, but I find the easiest thing to do is use a touch of EQ.

                                I could be way off though, and don’t want to hijack.

                                Ken
                                Thanks Ken,

                                You may very well be right and I appreciate the insight. Rather than guess I just ordered up a Umik-1. I'll post up some results once it arrives. Assuming that REW is what you're using below? I've got about another week before it decision time on the Vidar.

                                Chris

                                Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
                                Last edited by theSven; 16 April 2023, 10:07 Sunday. Reason: Update image location

                                Comment

                                • TH-1
                                  Member
                                  • Jun 2017
                                  • 41

                                  #17
                                  Anthology late stage build

                                  Originally posted by Chris~H
                                  Thanks Ken,

                                  You may very well be right and I appreciate the insight. Rather than guess I just ordered up a Umik-1. I'll post up some results once it arrives. Assuming that REW is what you're using below? I've got about another week before it decision time on the Vidar.

                                  Chris

                                  Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
                                  You assume correctly. I also have an older measurement rig with Dayton and Behringer mics as well, same effect. Actually, my Dirac measurement captures it too, but not as pronounced as I'm a few feet back for that.

                                  To be honest, I don't notice the omissions as much as the peaks, and wouldn't have guessed there was a dip without measuring. It sure helps with troubleshooting, I've messed up polarity and the odd crossover before. Maybe even more than once.

                                  Comment

                                  • Chris~H
                                    Junior Member
                                    • Feb 2006
                                    • 27

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                                    Hi Chris,

                                    No worries! I didn't take your comments as negative in any way.

                                    When you mentioned 121 db I got worried that it was a target for regular listening. A couple Statements builders got carried away demoing them in very large basements and blew the ribbons at 117 db from about 20' back so I get nervous when builders start talking about extremely high SPL's. Other than that, I don't know of any torture tests that cranked that high for extended periods of time.

                                    Yes, the Statements, Anthology's and Bordeaux's should all be capable of 115 db peaks without issue but no guarantee since room size, music content etc. all play a part in maximum SPL.

                                    Honestly, we design for sound quality with a normal playing volume of 80 - 85 db. I design for myself since that's where I listen the most with the occasional "crank it up" to shake the windows a bit. I'm 69 and my 25 year old daughter tells me its too loud in her bedroom on the 2nd floor.

                                    Anyway, enjoy the Anthology's!

                                    Jim
                                    Thanks Jim!

                                    As a side question, how does one calculate the power handling of a speaker such as this? I've always just listened for the beginning signs of distortion as my guide, but I'm seriously considering the Nord One amp that looks like it should be able to delivery around 550 watts @ 6 ohms.

                                    I can tell you that I'm not able to detect any distortion even with the Freya maxed in JFET buffer mode.

                                    Thank you,
                                    Chris

                                    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

                                    Comment

                                    • Chris~H
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Feb 2006
                                      • 27

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by TH-1
                                      You assume correctly. I also have an older measurement rig with Dayton and Behringer mics as well, same effect. Actually, my Dirac measurement captures it too, but not as pronounced as I'm a few feet back for that.

                                      To be honest, I don't notice the omissions as much as the peaks, and wouldn't have guessed there was a dip without measuring. It sure helps with troubleshooting, I've messed up polarity and the odd crossover before. Maybe even more than once.
                                      I've resembled that remark a few times throughout the years. That's part of the reason it was time to order up some measurement tools. I could play a bunch of test tones and do a bunch of manual figuring, but the price of the Umik makes it a pretty easy decision. And besides it looks like I've been bitten by the DIY bug. More speakers will be coming.[emoji1]

                                      Chris

                                      Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

                                      Comment

                                      • Jim Holtz
                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                        • Mar 2005
                                        • 3223

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Chris~H
                                        Thanks Jim!

                                        As a side question, how does one calculate the power handling of a speaker such as this? I've always just listened for the beginning signs of distortion as my guide, but I'm seriously considering the Nord One amp that looks like it should be able to delivery around 550 watts @ 6 ohms.

                                        I can tell you that I'm not able to detect any distortion even with the Freya maxed in JFET buffer mode.

                                        Thank you,
                                        Chris

                                        Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
                                        Hi Chris,

                                        Power requirements are based on the sensitivity of the drivers and the bass woofers maximum xmax. If you have Excel on a PC, Unibox (free) is a great program to calculate everything from maximum spl to cabinet volume requirements. In a 3-way speaker, the bass woofers are the drivers that determine the speaker sensitivity and based on the drivers xmax, maximum spl. The Anthologys, Statements and Bordeaux use the same woofers and have about 88 db sensitivity rating. So, that means at one watt of power, they'll produce 88 db at one meter which is the standard measurement. For every 3 db increase in volume, the watt requirements double. So here's how they work out;

                                        DB=Watts
                                        88 = 1
                                        91 = 2
                                        94 = 4
                                        97 = 8
                                        100 = 16
                                        103 = 32
                                        106 = 64
                                        109 = 128
                                        112 = 256
                                        115 = 512

                                        The RS225's in parallel actually peak at 112 db at rated xmax but they have enough xmax that they'll do 115 db. However distortion really starts to go up as a driver approaches maximum rated xmax and beyond.

                                        Hope that makes sense.

                                        BTW, too much power is way better than not enough. Usually, your ears go before the speakers in a well designed 3-way. That is not true with 2-ways.

                                        Jim

                                        Comment

                                        • Chris~H
                                          Junior Member
                                          • Feb 2006
                                          • 27

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                                          Hi Chris,

                                          Power requirements are based on the sensitivity of the drivers and the bass woofers maximum xmax. If you have Excel on a PC, Unibox (free) is a great program to calculate everything from maximum spl to cabinet volume requirements. In a 3-way speaker, the bass woofers are the drivers that determine the speaker sensitivity and based on the drivers xmax, maximum spl. The Anthologys, Statements and Bordeaux use the same woofers and have about 88 db sensitivity rating. So, that means at one watt of power, they'll produce 88 db at one meter which is the standard measurement. For every 3 db increase in volume, the watt requirements double. So here's how they work out;

                                          DB=Watts
                                          88 = 1
                                          91 = 2
                                          94 = 4
                                          97 = 8
                                          100 = 16
                                          103 = 32
                                          106 = 64
                                          109 = 128
                                          112 = 256
                                          115 = 512

                                          The RS225's in parallel actually peak at 112 db at rated xmax but they have enough xmax that they'll do 115 db. However distortion really starts to go up as a driver approaches maximum rated xmax and beyond.

                                          Hope that makes sense.

                                          BTW, too much power is way better than not enough. Usually, your ears go before the speakers in a well designed 3-way. That is not true with 2-ways.

                                          Jim
                                          Hi Jim,

                                          That absolutely makes sense. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out on this. I've got a lot to learn and have been reading the thread on REW and how to use it appropriately. Hopefully it will help me setup my listening environment for the better. (Or at least help me figure out what I'm hearing)

                                          I'll also d/l unibox and play around with that as well. For now it will be helpful for me just to walk through the Anthology's RS225's and cabinet design as a model.

                                          Thank you again,
                                          Chris

                                          Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

                                          Comment

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