Building In-Khan-Neatos for the living room

[TEK]

Can anyone tell me why there is a - by the rs180 driver in the crossover, while there are + at the other drivers?

[Steve Manning]

I believe they are wanting to have the speaker polarity reversed .... so on the RS180 you hook the + terminal to the minus side of the circuit. At least that's how I read it.

[---k---]

I believe they are wanting to have the speaker polarity reversed .... so on the RS180 you hook the + terminal to the minus side of the circuit. At least that's how I read it.

Exactly!

Crossover voodoo. It has to do with crossover slope orders and phase.

[cjd]

See, I don't even have to answer.

Typically people will spec the woofers as in-phase and the mid/tweeter as reversed when required (it isn't always,) I'm just special... So the notation in the crossover identifies which lead on the driver gets connected to the 'top' of the crossover.

[Renron]

Agreed, flip the polarity.

[cjd]

Agreed, flip the polarity.

Why? These are spec'd as they are because, in my experience, a receiver detects these as in-phase when combined with other speakers and wired correctly... It's more likely to result in correct phase across a multi speaker system where the other bits aren't necessarily known. Obviously it's solvable no matter how you wire things up, but... it's not arbitrary.

[Renron]

CJD,
Agree again, it's not arbitrary. I have no where near your experience. I've never designed a XO.
I was referring to the polarity of the individual driver, not the speaker. Looking at the schematics, there must be a reason that the mid and tweeter have a plus sign and the woofer has a minus sign next to them. I was merely trying to be logical about the differences.
I know that sometimes (3rd order XO ???) the polarity of a driver is flipped. Showing my inexperience with XO design here ; I think driver polarity reversal is due to capacitor phase interaction . Most likely wrong terminology. Sorry.
Please explain. I'd like to learn. (not being snarky or sarcastic)

OH, I think I understand. Did you think I meant to change the driver from the way the XO has it?
I did not intend for it to sound like the driver polarity should be re-inverted. Ah, Intent and meaning can get confused on the net. It is always the authors fault for lack of clarity, in which case, I apologize for not being more specific.
I'm going to blame this one on Steve, he started it when he said speaker polarity, I think he meant driver polarity. (jk) not blaming Mr. Manning..........it's a Joke!
Humbly,
Ron

[Steve Manning]

That's OK Ron ....... I'm married, have kids ...... it's always my fault

[Renron]

Amen!

[cjd]

Clearly we're just all confuzzled. As long as the mid/tweet agree the same, and the spider is the opposite, it will work.

[TEK]

Hi

Long time without any progress now. I suddently realized that I had to move some components from the basement and into the livingroom before I could start using these - so my priority was shiftet.
During the christimas holliday I got myself a Marantz AV8801 pre-pro that now have replaced my older Marantz SR7005 receover. The Marantz will go up into the livingroom and will be powering the In-Khan-Neatos there.
However, I have a 7 channel setup in my basement. With the SR7005 I used my Thule PA350B in balanced two channel mode to drive my mains and the receiver drove the center and surround channels.
The PA350B can operate in 2 channel mode or in 5 channel mode. So with the AV8801 I'm using the PA350B to drive the center and surround channels.
But - as all of you that have a sharp look for math have already seen - that levels me with two speakers without power. And I do not think that the PA350B in 5 channel mode is worthy driving the Ardents.

At the same time I have been happy enought to be accepted as a OEM for Hypex - wich gives me access to their OEM modules. We'll see if I will get a small production line going and start selling some - for now I'm doing some prototyping to see what is possible, getting some input and help from a couple of other members on the forum.
Anyway - due to this, and the fact that I was missing amplifier for two channels in my listening room/home theater, I have build two NC500 based prototypes (simples possible) that is now in-place.

So now I have the AV8801 as pre/pro, two Hypex NC500 monoblock prototypes to drive the mains and my Thule PA350B in 5 channel mode to drive the rest of the sorround channels.
And of course I still have my 3 sub's...

Having that out of the way I could finally start doing some more work on the In-Khan-Neatos, so - after some hecktical weeks at works, a bit time used to get my drive back after the monoblock builds and so on - I have finally had some progress.

Below is the crossover for the tweeter, mid and woofer. I have mounted everything and connected all wires - but not yet soldered anything. I have also just done one side.
If someone could take a look at it and see if I have got this right I would be really happy for that. Still very novice at reading crossover layouts - so I'm quite unsure if I have got it right.

Compared to the crossover on cjd's site - my looks quite different, but I think (or hope) it's just the layout that is differnet.
For the woofer (marked bass on the board) I have set the + and - sign as it should be connected to the woofer element.

Crossover schemaics


Mid


Tweeter and woofer

[cjd]

All looks right to me! Who made this design, the crossover is too complicated! :rf

[---k---]

My crossover layouts shouldn't be considered the best way, just a way. I think yours are laid out nicely.

Consider removing some of the glue on the 6 ohm resistor in the mid. It is inline with the mid. I remember CJD kept feeling mine to see if we were heating it up. We didn't have issues, but you never know. A small part like that doesn't need much glue, if any. I've seen people recommend putting a wire space underneath so air can circulate all around.

[TEK]

Thanks a lot, both of you.

I have removed the glue from the resistor. I have it hanging in free air now.
Both crossovers are now assembled and soldered. On speaker are done and are now laying on it's back in the theater playing some music for some initial testing.
As mentioned, it is laying on the back on my tv-bench, and there are only one. However - from what I can here so far it sounds very promising. Looking forward to get them up on the wall and do some more decent listening tests.

The reason that I only have one speaker is that I sanded through the paint when preparing the other for finishi. I also had some imperfection in the metallic paint (I tried to sand away some dust - not a good idea with metallic).
So I have to give that one another round with the paint gun. ..

[knowledgebass]

...On speaker are done and are now laying on it's back in the theater playing some music for some initial testing...

Haha, what time is it over there Tek? I'm the same way

[TEK]

Haha, what time is it over there Tek? I'm the same way

just a little over 03... 8O
Getting into bed is not my strength, it's just such a waste of time when there are so much other stuff that is far more interesting than sleeping...
Like building speakers - or right now, enjoying the Ardents...

A bit on the serious side. After working late, or doing stuff - I find half an hour of music listening (or view a episode of something) it to be a really good way to "wind-down" before I go to bed. Much easier to get to sleep afterwards.

[Renron]

Tek,
In the photo of the Mid XO, one of the two inductors should be turned on it's side. Not bad , but a little close to each other IMO. May not make a difference in the "real" world thou.
Ron

[TEK]

Hi Ron
I agree with you, but I have already soldered both and installed one, so I think I will let this one slide (these are just for my wife anyway ;-))

[TEK]

Snow-day in Norway...
Nice skiing conditiond for this evening :-)

[cjd]

That looks fun, except maybe the driving with others on the road... Chicago has tempered the enjoyment I get in driving, and my wife the fun I have in snow... That's not bad for listening though.

I think I like this build thread because it documents the reality of a build for me... So many other distractions, usually welcome.

Carry on.

C

[TEK]

No problem driving in this weather - it's quite normal in Norway⛄️
A bit more snowfall than usual, but nothing that causes any big issues compared to normal. But a lot of snow-schuffeling to keep the driveway open.
A bit waiting in traffic, but not mutch more than usual.

The snowing continue, this is our driveway now:

[BobEllis]

Better you than me, TEK. I went out in short sleeves today. Not the best year for my new nordic skis, but I'll take it.

[sdl2112]

No problem driving in this weather - it's quite normal in Norway⛄️
A bit more snowfall than usual, but nothing that causes any big issues compared to normal. But a lot of snow-schuffeling to keep the driveway open.
A bit waiting in traffic, but not mutch more than usual.

The snowing continue, this is our driveway now:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25124[/ATTACH]

Very picturesque...we hit a record high of 86F last Sunday :E

[---k---]

I like the snow. I could use more here in Chicago.

[cjd]

People here fail at driving on sunny clear days... A little rain and it's 2hrs extra on a 4 mile commute, snow?...Horrible. I'm fine with snow (my car doesn't take to salt any more, but that's my fault in parts choice.) I walk/train to work and could have used snow this year... We still might see it.

I've building building room treatments lately though, speakers coming soon.

Just listening again tonight, I'm out of energy already. I could use a quiet walk through snow drifts to make some sense of things, I think.

[TEK]

A lot of options for that here :-)

[TEK]

Finally some progress...

As I mentioned before, I had to repaint one of the speakers.
I sanded a bit to much and went trough the paint.

However, the second layer did not go as it should. On the top it was very good, but I got runs AND orange peel on the side of the speaker.

However, to all newbees out there, all is not lost even if you get some runs and orange peel.

This was the how it looked. I let it dry over the night (at 25-35 degree C using a cheep heat fan).


Then I started out with 600 paper and used wet sanding/color sanding to remove the runs as well as the orange peel.
What I saw, but that is not showing on tje picture, is that there are a lot of small scratched that causes there to be little shine in the paint


Continued with 800 and 1200 paper and wet sanding (by hand).
The point is to sand away the sanding marks.
Then orbital sander with 3000 and 4000 grid.
And then over to a 3 step polishing process - still using the orbital sander.


And the final result...

[TEK]

Mounting the crossover...


And finally - on up on the wall.


At some time in the future there will probably be some grills on as well...

[---k---]

Looks great. So how do they sound? Better than the Adrents.

[TEK]

It's a bit early to give you any serious inout on listening impression.
What I'm noticing so far (after very briefe listening) is that it seens to make a very nice sound stage and a even and nice respons. Voices sounds clear and are easy to understand. The bass level in the listening position is supricingly good when looking at the size of the speakers. All-in-all I'm very pleased with what I hear.
But no, they are no match for the 10x moren costly Ardents supported by 1 18" and 2 15" sub, feeded with each 500w ncore mono amps in a dedicated home theater room :W
And if they were I would never admit it 8O

There is one thing I do notice very well - and that I think I need to do something about.
As mentioned, in the listening position, the bass level is very good - better than excepted.
However, if I walk over to the other side of the room or into the kichen the sound becomed very "thin".
Note: we're not talking about 'a little to the side of the listening position', but the other side of the room 5-10m away.
But I'm not sure if what I hear is caused by lack of bass (and may be solved with a subwoofer) or if it is more about room reflection/eccos causing a bright/noisy sound stage when listening to indirect sound (and may better be solved with sound arbsorbant panels).
Any ideas and input to check that out is velcome!

[---k---]

Well, I'm glad you like them. I always worry about people's response to my/cjd designs. No worries about the Ardents sounding better, I hope so.

I'm glad to hear you're getting "surprisingly good" bass. With the sealed cabinet, it could be underwhelming to some. I forget the f3, but I want to say it is in the low 60hz or upper 50 hz range. A sub is definitely needed to get a full response.

5 - 10 meters away is pretty far. Likely just the normal sound loss with distance. Bass always seems to fall off faster.

I do wonder what mounting them on wall is doing for you. I'm sure you've seen the Toole graphs. You should be getting a null due to the back wall reflection around 104 hz if you built them 10.5" deep. The power response will somewhat fill in with the wall reflections, but maybe moving way off axis you're not getting that. You could try putting on some repetitive bass track and slowly wall backwards. Does the bass just fade away or does it just snap disappear like a null?

I also wouldn't be afraid to experiment with your bass tone control if you got them. The RS180 can take a lot.

[TEK]

Thanks for your input Ryan.
As mentioned, it's quite early to say mutch - more listening time is needed.
I was also curious about the on-wall compared to the in-wall it is designed for - at first easy listening it does not seens to be a big problem. For more acurate evaluation I should probably get out the measuring equipment.
For now I will probably do a auto setup on the Marantz and leve it with that. I have another, non-audio, project to attend to now. Need a gate for the stairway to keep the dog where we wont it (With our previous dog I could just tell her to not step over a imagionary line, and she would stay there - but with 3 children we're not able to be consistent enough to get that level of training and consistent feedback - so we're forfitting and going for physical stuff instead).

After that I might do some measuring to check out what's going on in the rest of the room. However I'm quite sure that the bass is sucked out as there are quite a large room (probably close to 70m2), and with high roof as well as an open stairway down to the basement. However the In-Khan-Neatos are located in one of the corners of the room so I guess there are some room-gain. To get a decent bass over a larger are might be a challenge.
I will have to see a bit. It would have been nice to have decent sound in the whole living-room, but at the same time I will not fill it up with speakers and boxes - and it will not be for chritical listening anyway. For that I have the Ardents ;-)


Edit:
I will not fill it up with speakers and boxes does of course mean "my wife won't let me fill it up with..."

[Renron]

Looks great. So how do they sound? Better than the Adrents.

I laughed so hard I almost wet myself. :rf

Tek, You are a Master.

Ron

[cjd]

The bass roll-off sure sounds like the results of cancellation. These should be able to provide a respectable listening experience in your room, though the bass won't knock your socks off.

Try just one in-khan, then the other. That will help isolate the issue to distance to surface or distance between, or the design (though if it's wall bounce the issue would remain too)

Glad they generally meet expectations.

C

[---k---]

We want side-by-side comparison review with the Ardents! Come one move them in there. 10 page review! Lets see if the Ardents can provide satisfying bass in your kitchen, and upstairs, and all throughout the house from that location.


(just trying to make Reon piss himself again.)

[Renron]

Ryan, You're killin me! Coffee out the nose this time....
I too would like to see Tek hang the Ardents on the wall. Reflections should add the needed base to shake the tiles off the roof.
Ron

[sdl2112]

Finally some progress...

As I mentioned before, I had to repaint one of the speakers.
I sanded a bit to much and went trough the paint.

However, the second layer did not go as it should. On the top it was very good, but I got runs AND orange peel on the side of the speaker.

However, to all newbees out there, all is not lost even if you get some runs and orange peel.

This was the how it looked. I let it dry over the night (at 25-35 degree C using a cheep heat fan).
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25150[/ATTACH]

Then I started out with 600 paper and used wet sanding/color sanding to remove the runs as well as the orange peel.
What I saw, but that is not showing on tje picture, is that there are a lot of small scratched that causes there to be little shine in the paint
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25151[/ATTACH]

Continued with 800 and 1200 paper and wet sanding (by hand).
The point is to sand away the sanding marks.
Then orbital sander with 3000 and 4000 grid.
And then over to a 3 step polishing process - still using the orbital sander.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25152[/ATTACH]

And the final result...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]25153[/ATTACH]

The finished product looks great TEK, well done :T

I am impressed how you blasted right through the paint run...that would have had me all kinds of upset. I didn't realize you could fix it the very next day. What type paint did you use?

[TEK]

After doing some tests before I have figured out that it's actually quite easy to fix runs, as long as there is enough paint so that you don't sand trough it.
The point is to go to finer and finer sandpaper, so that you get away any scratch markers from the courser sand paper, but when looking closely you could clearly see how the scratches caused the shine to dissapare, and the the shine improved as I went to the process with the finer sandpaper.

Bit I still don't know why I got so mutch orange peel on the side of the speaker - probably not the correct amount of thinner. However, that was also fixed in the sanding process, and the final result have a nice shine and no orange peel at all.

I'm using auto paint for cars. Professional type of quite high quality. The paint is Glasurit.
The white is their 22-series, a 2-k oil based paint. No clear requiered.
The baffel is metallic, thats the Glasurit 90-series and is water based. After the metallic there are one layer of 2-k oil based clear coat that gives shine and strenght.
It dries very fast and you can apply several layers in one go, typically with just minutes between layers.

Drying time depends on heat. If you have infared it dries totally in just minutes. If hou have 60 degrees C it dries in 1 hour, at 20
degrees C in 8 hours. I was wondering if it would be dry enough - but it was and there were no trouble sanding it.

[---k---]

Tek,
Might I suggest you use your moderator superpowers to break all this bench talk out into another thread. It could be of interest to more people than those still following along about your In-Khans.