Hypex NC400 Build

[Steve Manning]

That sucks that your Cambridge is acting up ....... I got to listen to an integrated Cambridge (not sure what model) over the past weekend. My step son and I made a field trip to Overture Audio in Wilmington, DE last Saturday. I had hoped to listen to some Magico's to get a feel for a Be tweeter since I had not heard one and have not been a big fan of metal tweeter in general. Turns out they had most of the Magico models there but not a single pair hooked up. Apparently one needs to make an appointment to get a listen in the world of high end audio theses days. Not that they were busy, we were the only one's in the store at the time, but the speakers needed a good 24 hrs to reach ambient temperature and cables charge needed to reach nominal, etc. I actually think they scanned my wallet when I walked in and they new the were out of luck!

We did get to listen to a pair of Focal Electra 1027's that was being run with an Oppo 105 player and the Cambridge integrated. Overall a nice sounding system and I was pleasantly surprised by what I heard with the Be tweeter since I've been lusting after your Ardents already.

[JonMarsh]

Interesting, Steve! Though I would caution you that generalizing about Be tweeters could be misleading- just look at how different the two Scanspeak versions are, based on factory plots and my own.

Where do they store the speakers that they need 24 hours to reach ambient temperature? That all sounds a bit ingrown and customer hostile- I was a co-owner in a high end store back in the 70's for a few years, and part of what set us apart was being a lot less persnickety than the competition... and being pretty careful about setup.

The Cambridge has been doing this for a while- if I don't have a speaker plugged in when I turn it on, everything is fine- once the relay clicks over. Otherwise, some protection circuit thinks there is a problem and won't allow the speaker relay to connect. BTW, the newer Cambridge preamp is quite nice sounding and has better build quality- the old one sounded good, but it used a relay ladder volume and balance control (this one uses multiplying DACs in a resistive mode). The old one was pretty noisy when ever you changed the volume. I'm psyched about this showing up tomorrow. UPS shows this in the air between Kentucky and CA, should deliver tomorrow.

[benthe8track]

Bah I goofed and didn't realize the smps I ordered didn't come with any cables. The price for the cables is fine but shipping from the Netherlands sucks. Also my buddy making the case didnt follow my model and has to remake the front. I still may be able to work on it these days off but I'm dobtful everything will arrive in time.

The nc400 modules are tiny! I knew they were small but seeing them in person is something else haha.

[Steve Manning]

Interesting, Steve! Though I would caution you that generalizing about Be tweeters could be misleading- just look at how different the two Scanspeak versions are, based on factory plots and my own.

Where do they store the speakers that they need 24 hours to reach ambient temperature? That all sounds a bit ingrown and customer hostile- I was a co-owner in a high end store back in the 70's for a few years, and part of what set us apart was being a lot less persnickety than the competition... and being pretty careful about setup.

Good point about the tweeters, though I also think a big part of it also has to do with how well the overall design is integrated together. This was the first time I had heard a Be tweeter and liked what I heard. I don't know how the inverted tweeter that Focal uses would compare to what you used in the Ardent. In the past I have found a good many commercial designs that used metal (non Be) tweeters somewhat harsh sounding and was curious how a Be tweeter would do.

As for the store ..... we got a tour of the whole store and they used a store room in the back that was not heated/cooled for speakers not on display. The manager that showed us around was nice enough, though I think they are used to customers with rather large bank accounts that suck in a lot of the voodoo "you need these $40,000 speaker cables elevated on the backs of baby lambs to sound their best" sales pitch, as gospel and as such that's the way they do things. I would have been more than happy to listen to a speaker that was off by a percent or two of optimum because they were a little off room temperature, as well as help move them into place.

[dar47]

See now that just bugs me. The other big one was we will bring one in for you to listen to "can I have your card will just re-found it if you don't like it".

Hearing the BE for the first time was like it's not metal and not soft or ribbon like just more neutral and detailed. Kind like the first time I heard a ceramic mid.

[Steve Manning]

Hearing the BE for the first time was like it's not metal and not soft or ribbon like just more neutral and detailed. Kind like the first time I heard a ceramic mid.

Exactly ....... my step son who plays guitar, among other instruments, which is one reason I wanted his expert ear along, went, oh, Stratocaster, he knew right away, everything was as it was supposed to be.

[JonMarsh]

Bah I goofed and didn't realize the smps I ordered didn't come with any cables. The price for the cables is fine but shipping from the Netherlands sucks. Also my buddy making the case didnt follow my model and has to remake the front. I still may be able to work on it these days off but I'm dobtful everything will arrive in time.

The nc400 modules are tiny! I knew they were small but seeing them in person is something else haha.

If I have time this weekend I'll snap pics of the amp innards and of the nCore modules!

[JonMarsh]

Exactly ....... my step son who plays guitar, among other instruments, which is one reason I wanted his expert ear along, went, oh, Stratocaster, he knew right away, everything was as it was supposed to be.

DAR47 hit it pretty much on the nose with regards to the SS6640, IMO.

[JonMarsh]

Good point about the tweeters, though I also think a big part of it also has to do with how well the overall design is integrated together. This was the first time I had heard a Be tweeter and liked what I heard. I don't know how the inverted tweeter that Focal uses would compare to what you used in the Ardent. In the past I have found a good many commercial designs that used metal (non Be) tweeters somewhat harsh sounding and was curious how a Be tweeter would do.

As for the store ..... we got a tour of the whole store and they used a store room in the back that was not heated/cooled for speakers not on display. The manager that showed us around was nice enough, though I think they are used to customers with rather large bank accounts that suck in a lot of the voodoo "you need these $40,000 speaker cables elevated on the backs of baby lambs to sound their best" sales pitch, as gospel and as such that's the way they do things. I would have been more than happy to listen to a speaker that was off by a percent or two of optimum because they were a little off room temperature, as well as help move them into place.

A lot of these guys have just never learned to moderate their OCD tendencies to deal with "semi-normal" people (that's what I'd call us, though my friends here and co-workers don't consider me very "normal"- though compared with audiophilia nervosa, I'm the height of sanity and common sense! (maybe building stuff yourself teaches that to you... )

[benthe8track]

More spy pics.



Was going to do a chamfer but he didn't have the bit so it will stay square with the VU meters. The laser cut finish was good enough and he's going to buff it.

[JonMarsh]

Unpacking the M22

So, this is like the unboxing photos and open it up and see what's inside... another internet cliche! :W

Let's skip the box and all- not so interesting.



Just phone pictures- which is appropriate with Photo-bucket and their compression- what the picture doesn't convey is the build quality, which I'd say is a distinct step up from earlier Mastersound components- like the M51 or the M50. :T Metal work, feet, everything is a bit nicer, though the design language is basically the same. Tolerances are very snug/tight. OK, it's not a $30K Boulder Audio amplifier, or a $20K Ayre, but it's nicely put together. That funny oval shaped thing on the top center of the front panel appears to be the on off switch.

Haven't read the manual yet...

Note, the only paper work is the unpacking guide- the manual comes on a very nicely made USB stick with it's own leather holder, all quite well made, too. Very British or Canadian in feel, to me...



Built in feet are made with points, but also come with magnetic lower feet as supports on the shelving. Interesting that they think this level of vibration management is important- or that their marketing department thinks it is! :W



And for Ben and all the other hardware nerds, here's the money shot of the interior construction:



I've got a ton of chores and errands tomorrow, but hopefully Sunday I'll be able to set it up and start running it and give it a preliminary listen...

[benthe8track]

So a single power supply? Makes me feel better about cheaping out haha. Looks like a nc400 on a square pcb! Similar cap layout at least.

[JonMarsh]

So a single power supply? Makes me feel better about cheaping out haha. Looks like a nc400 on a square pcb! Similar cap layout at least.

That's what it's basically supposed to be, but they've added their own input circuitry and soft limiter, and SUPPOSEDLY have done some "cool stuff" with the power supply... Looks like some small SOIC opamps in the front end, maybe for a little extra filtering and isolation (I have bought Jensen transformers for that, it's probably OCD over kill).

Anyway, pics are worth more than words, so let's have some more pics.

[Carl V]

but hopefully Sunday I'll be able to set it up and start running it and give it a preliminary listen...

what?
no 24 hour warm up playing FM white noise
or Ayre's efficacious Break-in CD.8O

Does indeed look nice. Enjoy.:T

[JonMarsh]

I've got the Ayre CD... don't worry, I won't make any snap judgements... at least not any negative ones, hopefully! FM noise? What's that? Oh, you mean from a tuner! You know, I think I have one in one of my storage units, a fairly expensive Denon one, but I haven't had it hooked up to a system in, well, not since the 90's. Particularly out where I live in the East Bay, that's just an awful signal source.

[JonMarsh]

Curious but to be expected?

This morning early I fired up the M50 Music server and the M52 drive array, the latter which had sort of gone on the fritz with only one drive in the three drive array working consistently, and one of the others not coming up, and the other just sporadically- this was at XMAS time. Hadn't fired things up since then.

Today it came up as if nothing had ever been a problem- I figure it has to be temperature related, because the system is at the far side of the family room, there is no central head in this room (only a wood chip stove, which isn't run very often) and I suspect the temperature was just getting a bit too low for the drive mechanism.

So now it's on a loop, playing albums alternatively off the drive, and off a USB stick. I'll let it run that way until I get back from my morning errands, shuffling some things around to storage and retrieving my appliance dolly for moving the Isiris back to Livermore. (GF is getting a bit claustrophobic with my audio gear and tools- she appreciates having a skilled tool using animal round, unlike her last husband, but it seems it may be too much of a good thing... :W )

I wanted to keep as much as possible the same for my first listening checks of the NAD M22, so I did't want to put in the new main drive with the optimized folders and image media until after doing these checks. (I fixed a lot of issues with the built in software for the M50 and the service it uses not being able to find album art- it's understandable, for some of the rarer albums I have, there is literally only one place on the net you can find the art, and in some cases I had to scan the CD's myself...)

Should be up and listening by after lunch if all goes well, or not too long afterwards...

[JonMarsh]

OK, got this all running to burn in a bit, before getting some lunch, just put some stuff on to run it in, in fact, that CD from Cuba that I kind of like which GF brought home.

Right away, I can tell this is not my Cambridge Audio 840W class XD amplifier. In comparison, the Cambridge has a more forward upper midrange through high end, that is probably not strictly neutral, but euphonic for some; the Cambridge is not as taut or well defined in the bottom end; it sounds quite good in that range compared to most amps, but this "little" NAD has both output, control and definition in the bottom end.

To put it simply, my first impression is that the M22 pulls a better disappearing act, and lets whatever music is there through in a form more true to the original.

Those used to amplifiers and systems that benefit from some harmonically enriched tonality from the amplifier (whether through tubes or solid state) might not like the M22 in a short listen. Initial impressions for imaging are quite positive; IF it's there to some degree in the recording. It reproduces edgy program material with edge, but seemingly without adding more grunge to the edge, if you know what I mean.

Gonna have to spend some time listening this evening. That's likely to be a problem, as Sunday night is big Masterpiece theater night, GF's favorite viewing night! I'll have to knock off early!

[Steve Manning]

I'd love to compare this to my Halcro MC20, sounds like they have similar traits.

[JonMarsh]

I'd love to compare this to my Halcro MC20, sounds like they have similar traits.

That might be the case... have you seen the review of the Halcro MC20 on Stereophile?

http://www.stereophile.com/content/halcro-logic-mc20-power-amplifier-measurements

Well, I found a little time to do some listening... here's a screen capture of the playlist, as that's much easier to do than write down all the song titles! :W




If I was to use a photography analogy, my impression is that this is a top flight lens which gives you more access to what lies previously in your system. Like one of Pentax's top macro lenses, which also double as great medium telephoto's. Really good rendition, very low aberration, great micro and macro contrast. That's sort of the conservative, not going over the top praising it. I know that can get old on the internet... :B

One other statement I'll make, is that judging by the NAD M22, if you want to do a DIY amp, an nCore 400 solution should be very high on your list of things to consider; if DIY is not your forte, and you can afford the $3K for a power amp, you must hear this amplifier before shelling out for anything else in the same price class. DON'T expect it to put a euphonic coloration into your system to compensate for a digital front end that needs some taming and some warmth- that's not what this amp is about.

I believe I would rate it matching or above the Boulder 2060 my colleague in Munich used to own, in regards to system performance, but that might not be fair, because the speakers I last heard it with would likely be the limiting factor compared with the Ardents. We were joking a few months back, that if I got this amp, I'd have to pack it up in a suitcase and bring it to Munich for him to listen to... right now, he's got a small class D amp hand built by the IR guys with their new GaN (Gallium Nitride) transistors, which he says is quite good for that power level... sounds like a qualifier to me.

This is one of those things, that the better everything else is, then the amp becomes more important. Now I'm faced with trying to figure out how to move up the priority of my nCore DIY build, so I can use them in the Livermore domicile with the Isiris. I just don't see how to do it, though, will just have to work through the To-Do list.

A few comments on specific tracks:

Josie by David Garfield was both smoother and more articulate, and had a rock solid rhythm track foundation.

My homemade HD CD version of Gaia, derived from a 176 kHz SACD rip, is atmospheric when it should be, and wacks you when it should on the drum roll late in the song...

East River Blue by Spyro Gyra is one of my favorites of theres, and exhibited great dynamics and total palette, particularly the keyboards, sax, and drums. Best I've heard it.

Tell Everybody I know by Keb Mo was super clean and natural.

Chorale No. 1 "Sleepers Awake" is the only live recorded cut on CD of the Jacque Loussier Trio that I know of, and boy did it sound live; in particular, the one high keyboard accent he uses for almost comic effect had tremendous dynamics and clarity, something hard to do with piano; on this an other cuts, I'd say this amp really handles piano well.

Rich Woman, Robert Plant and Allison Krauss, great dynamics and better separation of the bass and drums as instruments, with their own acoustic characteristics kept well delineated.

Soon as I get Paid- more Keb Mo, great sounding finger picking on guitar and totally believable vocals.

Spiral, a 10 minute Hiromi Uhera cut, with at times dense drums, bass, and piano- again, beautiful piano reproduction.

Aras. Very clean and beautiful rendition of the tabula transients. Very satisfying.

Royals- Lorde - just a check on how it handles over produced pop. Lots of clarity, vocals that pop, very clean rhythm section.

Just a little Lovin - Shelby Lynn, very good delineation of bass and electric piano in the same frequency range- very good vocal rendition. Something I thought over and over gain, this amp does midrange very well with very good resolving power, but it does that everywhere- it's just, I think, that the human ear is very sensitive in that area and able to spot issues more quickly.


I think it would be very interesting to here the M22 back to back with the Theta Prometheus. Not that dissimilar in power levels. In fact, essentially identical, within 1 dB. But $3K versus $12K. That's an interesting value proposition comparison. I'd hope Theta has done something to give their mono blocks an edge, but it's hard for me to imagine what it would be like, after listening to the M22. Maybe I have a lack of imagination.... as well as lack of money!

[Steve Manning]

;

That might be the case... have you seen the review of the Halcro MC20 on Stereophile?

http://www.stereophile.com/content/halcro-logic-mc20-power-amplifier-measurements

I think it would be very interesting to here the M22 back to back with the Theta Prometheus. Not that dissimilar in power levels. In fact, essentially identical, within 1 dB. But $3K versus $12K. That's an interesting value proposition comparison. I'd hope Theta has done something to give their mono blocks an edge, but it's hard for me to imagine what it would be like, after listening to the M22. Maybe I have a lack of imagination.... as well as lack of money!

Sounds like you made a good investment Jon and I bet your right about the Theta's not having a lot of difference in the way the two sound.

Thanks for the link, I had run across it when I was thinking about buying my amp. I got it from Audiogon with ~2 years of occasional use on it for 40% of MSRP, so it was hard to say no, I think you know that feeling.

[benthe8track]

Can someone help me decipher this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VU-Meter-Driver-Board-for-Mcintosh-Marantz-Denon-DIY-AUDIO-power-output-METER-/271311138213?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

Is the input for the driver board between the pre-amp and NC400s or between the NC400s and the speakers?
If it is between the pre/NC400 how do I attach it considering I'm using a balanced connection.

[JonMarsh]

Can someone help me decipher this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VU-Meter-Driver-Board-for-Mcintosh-Marantz-Denon-DIY-AUDIO-power-output-METER-/271311138213?ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123

Is the input for the driver board between the pre-amp and NC400s or between the NC400s and the speakers?
If it is between the pre/NC400 how do I attach it considering I'm using a balanced connection.

Based on what the funny blocky text says, the sensitivity is 97mV RMS for +3 dB on the meter. Mind you, that's a steady state- of course, they may have peak detector unit in this.

Solution? Use an attenuator network from the single ended speaker output, this is about a tenth of a volt, from something like 40V RMS, so 400:1 is the range to start with.

A passive attenuator should take into account the impedance of the input connection, but that may be reasonably high- if it's 10K, and the shunt resistor is 1K, and the series resistor ~400K, nothing should blow up... :B

[benthe8track]

Like this?



Oops the bottom should say nc400 right.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, based on the sketchy information, that's what I'd try. Safest way to test would be with a high power load resistor and a scope or DVM to check signal levels in volts RMS.

[benthe8track]

Yeah for sure. Any recommendations for pots so I can adjust as needed?

Just got this pic too:

[JonMarsh]

You could change the 400K resistor to a 220K pot plus 220K fixed resistor, for example-

Mmmm, nice looking metal work! :T

[benthe8track]

My original design called for 50 million holes. Luckily my friend had the much better idea to just use perforated aluminum.



Wish I was a little more creative with the layout. Would have been a good opportunity to take some design cues from NAD.

Close up with the plastic peeled back.



Looks like he's shipping it tomorrow. Laser eye surgery on Friday so I'm looking forward to getting it all together early next week.

[JonMarsh]

Let's see, I believe there's an appropriate Carly Simon song (perhaps before your time...) "Anticipation..."

Now, you know I think that's cutting corners when she's making the video with a six string acoustic, when the original recording used a 12 string...

But that has nothing to do with your Hypex nCore build! 'Cause you're not cutting corners with anything!

[benthe8track]

The anticipation is almost over.
Got these along with a tracking number today. Should be here on Wednesday along with the digikey order containing the resistors, big load resistors and some more wire.

[JonMarsh]

Cool! :T

hearing the M22 has motivated me to try to get my pair of nCore mono blocks built, but things are still a bit crazy at work, was on the computer until almost 9:30 last night working on a technical marketing project for the internal Cisco team. Ugh! Glorified Marcom, but internal- to train them on how to approach and create a value proposition for the customer and their ODM's in a specific segment.

The General Finishes water based poly for the subs came in yesterday, too, so that MAY get some attention- but there are two 5K events this weekend, a cancer research one Saturday, and the Devil Mountain Run on Sunday, so I suspect this weekend will not be all that productive, other than necessities like laundry...

[Steve Manning]

Those are looking very nice:T You and Jon are going to have to do a side by side and see how the diy vs NAD compare .......

[Steve Manning]

The General Finishes water based poly for the subs came in yesterday, too, so that MAY get some attention

I think your going to like that water based poly Jon ....... I just got a gallon of it along with a gallon of milk paint. I'm refinishing a kitchen for some friends while I'm still looking for work.

[---k---]

Cool! :T

hearing the M22 has motivated me to try to get my pair of nCore mono blocks built, but things are still a bit crazy at work, was on the computer until almost 9:30 last night working on a technical marketing project for the internal Cisco team. Ugh! Glorified Marcom, but internal- to train them on how to approach and create a value proposition for the customer and their ODM's in a specific segment.

Hire an intern at the office and make him put together your amp. It will almost look legit. :evil:

[benthe8track]

Cool! :T

hearing the M22 has motivated me to try to get my pair of nCore mono blocks built, but things are still a bit crazy at work, was on the computer until almost 9:30 last night working on a technical marketing project for the internal Cisco team. Ugh! Glorified Marcom, but internal- to train them on how to approach and create a value proposition for the customer and their ODM's in a specific segment.

The General Finishes water based poly for the subs came in yesterday, too, so that MAY get some attention- but there are two 5K events this weekend, a cancer research one Saturday, and the Devil Mountain Run on Sunday, so I suspect this weekend will not be all that productive, other than necessities like laundry...

Looking forward to seeing your build with those sweet Hexateq cases.
I'm really interested in your option of how the NC400s and the NAD compare. From what I've read guys tend to prefer the NAD but you would suspect they would feel that way given the price difference.

[JonMarsh]

Well, the NAD solution is heavily customized by them, (just like other folks update the nCore 1200 module design) and I'd think they OUGHT to be able to come up with a few tricks considering the price differential... but we'll see.

[dar47]

Hehe, to bad there wasn't a young speaker builder close by that could just follow him around and pitch in when needed, kind of a DIY apprentices or something?

[JonMarsh]

yeah, Evil Twin does the whole Sith Apprentice thing when he can, but I've found it too time consuming and high maintenance! :W

Actually, I think in this area very few young guys can afford to live in places where they can have much of a workshop- my hat's off to oneplustwo who manages to do that in SF!

[benthe8track]

Quick update from this eve:

[JonMarsh]

Mmm, good things are happening! :T

[wkhanna]

Mmm, good things are happening! :T

I assume you are referring to what appears to be a mostly empty bottle of Stella Artois?

[benthe8track]

Wow what a long day working on this thing. Started at 7 this morning with my coffee and just finished some trouble shooting. I'll snap some better pics tomorrow but for the most part it's together. Had a bit of a scare when I first plugged it it, things lit up and I had no sound. Turns out I had pin 1 and 2 reversed on the XLR inputs, an easy fix but cost me 2 hours of frustration. I'm supposed to go hiking tomorrow but if the weather doesn't cooperate I'll be trying out Jon's attenuator for the VU meters and listening to it!

Some more crappy cell phone pics. I promise I'll take some good ones when it's all done.

Most of the wiring (Cat approved).



Wife made the executive decision that the white LED in the switch looked better than the blue:

[JonMarsh]

I think I'd be willing to go along with her, whether I fully agreed or not! If the blues don't match exactly, then having a white would be better esthetically.

Hmmm, I got an interesting request dropped in my lap yesterday- to prepare an SMPS power supply with our parts to match up to one of the IR Class D modules, and to have this ready by the August FAE training. And they want the controller to be our XMC ARM based micro. And because technically everything above 75 W SHOULD have PFC, though this is ignored for audio most of the time, this is really a combo of PFC front end and a PWM isolation/regulation stage, with all the doodads needed to keep a Class D setup happy- I.E., prevents pumping of the unloaded supply rail, possible requirement for clock synchronization (though many of the IR reference designs don't have a way to do this- there are self oscillating designs, but only 2nd order, so are not truly fixed frequency- just as the Hypex aren't.)

Expect to have a big discussion about this today with my boss- that's a very tight schedule, and would require dropping all other activities to have any hope of pulling it off. And there are other concerns, including issues of code re-use and licensing. OTOH, I finagled my way into finishing the Application note for the one LLC reference design we have running, which has an alternative controller running our XMC, but the code was developed by a 3rd party vendor. Depending on the terms we agreed to, this could be tricky.

It's a shame the IR designs are about 10x the distortion and noise of Hypex nCore, even though they are popular on the DIYAUDIO forum. Of course, that's not terrible, means they might be 0.01% where Hypex is 0.001%. But that first 25 watts just isn't quite as nice, though it is pretty good. If this does get off the ground, I'll have to look into the idea of making the design and interface compatible with Hypex modules. My boss doesn't know anything about Hypex, or that they even exist. I'm sure Jun Honda does, though...

This could be awkward... but interesting.

Oh, and is it making waves on the scope yet? Or sound through a speaker (use inline fuses for first tests!)

Today I'm going to try to figure out which of the IR modules is most electrically similar to the nCore 400. :W :B

[Steve Manning]

Very nice job on the build ..... out of curiosity, do you have a total for what the cost was on this?

[benthe8track]

I didn't keep as diligent a tally with the costs for this project, mostly because I started buying the odds and ends a long time ago. Things like 10 different push buttons to see what looked the best, ect. The CDN dollar is terrible right now so that added another 20% but I think everything was under 2k.

Took your advice and got this big ass resistor for setting up the VU meters.



I tried to take some nice pictures, didn't realize the ISO was jacked to the max. So at least I'm consistent I guess.

[---k---]

That is looking better than high-end retail. I'm impressed.