Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

[benthe8track]

Nice looking speaker, but $15K is a lot of moolah!

I have an extra C79, and have been threatening to build a center three way around it some day- would be great if I could make it a parts box project, but not sure how I would approach that- it might end up a bit weird! (based on what's in my parts box... for example, dual w22's for the woofers (don't need lots of low end extension for a center, but do what low distortion; I have some Millennium Excel tweeters around too, that could be pressed into service. Seems, though, like I really should just repackage the completed Wavecor design into a center style box- could even use one of my 71000 SS tweeters or a Transducer labs N26C. Have to give that some thought once we see how things settle out this fall....

The repackaged wavecor Ardnet would be a HUGE centre haha. I was looking at the Wavecor sw146, maybe some 3" Acuton mids then I have no idea what would make a good tweeter. I'll play around in cad in the coming months and try to figure out a box design that could be scaled up or down depending on what drivers you want. That LCR is made in 3 pieces it seems.

[JonMarsh]

There's a balanced drive Wavecor 7" (Wavecor SW182BD02) that would help with the size issues- if you look at some of the other center designs around, the ones with good output capability are not exactly petite. The most compact design I could come up with that I was happy with was the Modula NeoD CC. I've got enough parts of that design around to build GF a new center fairly quickly- need to do that, the NHT speaker I tossed in to "upgrade" hers is better, but not where we need to be.

[benthe8track]

There's a balanced drive Wavecor 7" (Wavecor SW182BD02) that would help with the size issues- if you look at some of the other center designs around, the ones with good output capability are not exactly petite. The most compact design I could come up with that I was happy with was the Modula NeoD CC. I've got enough parts of that design around to build GF a new center fairly quickly- need to do that, the NHT speaker I tossed in to "upgrade" hers is better, but not where we need to be.

I think I could squeeze a 7" and make up the volume with more depth. The facets take a bit of meat out of it it which helps a bit. After the Ardents I need to keep the WAF a bit higher haha.
I'm visiting a friend in LA on these days off, looking forward to seeing California for the first time

[JonMarsh]

I think I could squeeze a 7" and make up the volume with more depth. The facets take a bit of meat out of it it which helps a bit. After the Ardents I need to keep the WAF a bit higher haha.
I'm visiting a friend in LA on these days off, looking forward to seeing California for the first time

Great! Have a good time, but of course, LA is it's own special world and not very representative of other parts of the state... you may have heard about the proposal by one group to have CA split up into 6 different states by functional regions... there's almost some reasonable arguments for that, and it would give us better representation in the Senate, though still far less than the ratio to population of most states. Maybe that way the vying interests could each get some representation....

Now we got hit yesterday just before going home with a with a "Oh my God, we have some new special tests to do and they must all be completed this Friday (today) or you guy have to come in on Monday (Labor Day holiday). I didn't slug him, but it was a near thing... I did mention that bringing the request on Thursday, it should have at least been Thursday morning... and also mentioned that without approval in writing of US CEO, we aren't allowed to work legal holidays. We'll probably finish it up today, but if not, I'm not letting the other guys be bullied into coming in- I will, by myself if needed, and start early- won't make any effort to make things easier for the customer engineer, as we've been seeing a pattern of him trying to create work drama in the schedule in order to justify getting someone hired reporting to him. It's about fief building- I don't give a crap if he wants to do that, but not while messing with my guys and taking them away from their families on a holiday weekend. That dog don't hunt around here... :evil:

[JonMarsh]

Got the tweeter crossover reworked, and discovered I'd buggared one of the caps in the LF crossover, when I'd cut out the brace for access. Have that taken apart, but must order caps to finish the LF rework, installing new L1 inductors after buying some special short screw drivers to give me access to the mounting bolts without totally unwiring everything! Argh!

As usual, I find I don't work that well in high temps- the family room is open to the outdoor patio, and it's been stinking hot here this weekend - about a hundred again today, and 90 quite early in the day. It's a doggie problem, giving the lame dog access to the outdoors, when she can't get through the doggie door anymore.

Some progress... not enough!

At least Gf's new subwoofer cabinet is only one panel away from being completely glued up.

[JonMarsh]

Ordered replacement caps for the woofer circuits (68uF Jantzen Cross cap) and some more caps for tweak experimentation for the midrange and tweeter-- hope they're here soon, and hope this weather cools off a bit! though the latter may not be likely for a while- sometimes September is our hottest month!

Also drooling a little over the new Esoteric midwoofers from Dayton Audio- will have to look into these, if they are really FMEA and Kippel optimized. I have some weird ideas, and maybe it's time to revisit the Saint-Saens concept. I mean, I haven't bought or cut any LBL bamboo in quite a while... :W

[benthe8track]

Sounds like progress to me!

Hot almost seems like an understatement--I just got back to Calgary this morning and it feels like winter here in comparison. What a different world it is in LA but it's a lot of fun. I could get into the idea of moving to San Ramon and working for Chevron.

[JonMarsh]

Got shipping notice, too. the order included another possible tweeter set of caps to check, a possible mod on the midrange, and of course the 68 uF LF caps. SHOULD be in business this weekend, if the shipping works out.

Hope you had fun in LA- I couldn't handle living there, it's more than a bit too much dense pack! I think Calgary would challenge my cold weather tolerance- though I've been back to Colorado quite a few times, including in the middle of the winter, theres a big gap I suspect between Calgary and Boulder temp wise!

[benthe8track]

Got shipping notice, too. the order included another possible tweeter set of caps to check, a possible mod on the midrange, and of course the 68 uF LF caps. SHOULD be in business this weekend, if the shipping works out.

Hope you had fun in LA- I couldn't handle living there, it's more than a bit too much dense pack! I think Calgary would challenge my cold weather tolerance- though I've been back to Colorado quite a few times, including in the middle of the winter, theres a big gap I suspect between Calgary and Boulder temp wise!

Fingers crossed on the shipping. What are you thinking in terms of tweaks?

Calgary is actually a bit of a step up in the temperature department compared to Winnipeg in the winter--still very much colder than Cali. Dense is right, great place to party not a great place to drive or smell apparently haha.

[JonMarsh]

Tweaks are just to first cap in tweeter section (C4) (have a set of 3.9uF, also just ordered a pair of 4.7 uF)

On the midrange, looking at the possibility of tweaking the roll off rate of the midrange by adding in 10uf to C3; simulated that, but not sure if I fully trust the phase data

C1 is actually a 68 uF in my current build- those I'm just replacing after having cut into one of them trimming off the brace (in order to get access) and figuring I'm likely to do something similarly stupid modifying the other crossover assembly.

And looking at R1 going to paralleled 10 ohm resistors, net value of 5 ohms. It all looked like changes in the right direction in LspCAD, referenced to what I'd measured.

Found some good phenolic pieces online for possible front baffles for these Esoteric drivers- need to keep them thin, what with the frame constraints, especially if I try the 5.5". Just some experimental thoughts- need to upgrade some of GF's HT speakers so I can enjoy movies more. Have an idea for a corner loaded line array, too, which would make her happy in that room.

[benthe8track]

Tweaks are just to first cap in tweeter section (C4) (have a set of 3.9uF, also just ordered a pair of 4.7 uF)

On the midrange, looking at the possibility of tweaking the roll off rate of the midrange by adding in 10uf to C3; simulated that, but not sure if I fully trust the phase data

C1 is actually a 68 uF in my current build- those I'm just replacing after having cut into one of them trimming off the brace (in order to get access) and figuring I'm likely to do something similarly stupid modifying the other crossover assembly.

And looking at R1 going to paralleled 10 ohm resistors, net value of 5 ohms. It all looked like changes in the right direction in LspCAD, referenced to what I'd measured.

Found some good phenolic pieces online for possible front baffles for these Esoteric drivers- need to keep them thin, what with the frame constraints, especially if I try the 5.5". Just some experimental thoughts- need to upgrade some of GF's HT speakers so I can enjoy movies more. Have an idea for a corner loaded line array, too, which would make her happy in that room.

Right on. Hopefully the order came in?

[JonMarsh]

Right on. Hopefully the order came in?

I hope it's waiting for me at home tonight... not yet. I may be able to scrounge up some parts for testing, though- I have a parts bin with a variety of medium size caps, but not the ones I wanted to use in this.

[JonMarsh]

Shipment didn't arrive but I hit the storage units in Livermore and located workable substitutes. Cross fingers...

[JonMarsh]

Got the one crossover completely modified (first pass on it) and the system re-assembled, but ran out of time to test- had dinner scheduled with daughter, we hadn't been able to sync up our schedules for over a month, especially what with the out of town visitors. Next weekend will be testing, and a combined Bday dinner for her fiancé and me! Now both Elaine and Jon (the other "Jon") are 30 and all grown up... :W )

[benthe8track]

Got the one crossover completely modified (first pass on it) and the system re-assembled, but ran out of time to test- had dinner scheduled with daughter, we hadn't been able to sync up our schedules for over a month, especially what with the out of town visitors. Next weekend will be testing, and a combined Bday dinner for her fiancé and me! Now both Elaine and Jon (the other "Jon") are 30 and all grown up... :W )

Well happy early birthday!
How does that work, test in mono and adjust? Are there stereo measurments as well? Looking forward to doing some soldering to keep warm, got the first snowfall today.

[JonMarsh]

Wow, first snow fall? we're still waiting for the overnight low to hit 50 degrees... may not be until next month! It's supposed to be 93-95 in Livermore Wednesday-Friday.

I normally measure and test just with one speaker, there's nothing happening in stereo except more room effects! Finalize the crossover on first one, then complete the second. I'm thinking I need to bring the NAD M51 to Danville from Livermore, for setting up in the living room.

Oh, and BTW, the NAD NCORE type amp I posted about on the digital audio section is actually available in the USA, now, from some dealers. Mmmmm.

[JonMarsh]

So of course, the ordered crossover parts DID arrive today! :W

[benthe8track]

So of course, the ordered crossover parts DID arrive today! :W

Sweet more parts! Hopefully enough bits to close this project out.

Not 100% but my dad mentioned that one of the recipients of baffles we we made may have elected for a cheaper project. So those could be a good deal if anyone else was interested in making a set of these. It certainly takes the tricky parts out of the cabinets.

[JonMarsh]

Sweet more parts! Hopefully enough bits to close this project out.

Not 100% but my dad mentioned that one of the recipients of baffles we we made may have elected for a cheaper project. So those could be a good deal if anyone else was interested in making a set of these. It certainly takes the tricky parts out of the cabinets.

Interesting... will give that some thought, too, as that could be a wedding present build.

OK, have some feedback- I'd say it's looking pretty good, unless you want to lie on the floor to listen to the speakers! :W


The test cabinet is not setup optimally, just 5 feet or so out from a side wall in the middle of the family room, aimed at a slight diagonal out from the side wall.

Here's the 1M response at about 1M off the floor, with a 100ms gate, Half Hamming window, no grille cloth yet:



To dial out some of the room influence (the side wall is all glass, hint, hint) and show what trends might look like in a more optimum environment or setup, with 1/6 octave smoothing:




For comparison, I also took measurements at 2M, and same measurement height (representative of seated listening height- for a tall guy)



Though there's even more fine grained "ripple" in the response (comb filtering) it's not the fault of the speaker, but the setup. Here, the same measurement with 1/6 octave filtering:



With the grilles on with cloth, we're going to lose 2-3 dB in the top end, from about 8 kHz on up, and that should be just about right.

Think you can live with this? Looking at the schematic,






C4 is now 3.9 uF from 3.3; R1 net paralleled value is 4.7 ohms from 3.1; and L1 is 5.6mH. Nothing else has been changed. I have a set of 4.7 uF caps that could be tested for C4, and that might give a bit more phase angle and reduce the BBC dip that occurs below the mid-tweeter design axis. I'm going to try that out tomorrow.

[bigjohn]

Not 100% but my dad mentioned that one of the recipients of baffles we we made may have elected for a cheaper project. So those could be a good deal if anyone else was interested in making a set of these. It certainly takes the tricky parts out of the cabinets.

If Jon isn't interested in them, I would be very interested, let me know

[JonMarsh]

And in case you think I'm just measuring, I have been doing some listening checks though the measurement system with stuff that happened to me on my work Macbook using VOX (not exactly a state of the art playback system, BUT, I've heard a LOT worse even at Audio shows...

• "Hoy Se Cumplen Seis Semanas" (from a Cuban CD GF brought back on a trip there- lots of percussion, brass, vocals, and a grooving bass line- think Cuban music, of course!)
• "Amoreena" (Elton John, ripped high res PCDM converted from SACD disk)
• "While my guitar gently weeps" (from Beatles USB 24 bit flac apple)
• "Baba O'Riley" (Who, also ripped from SACD)
• "Just a little loving" Shelby Lynn
• "Texas" Eric Johnson (love this blues number... great album with all the other guys he had playing on it, too)
• "Gavotte in D Major" (Jacque Loussier Trio, from SACD)
• "San Marco Moderna" Al Di Meola
• "Rumor Has it" (Live) not HiFi, but fun... you gotta be able to enjoy fun music, you know...
• "Gaia" (James Taylor, from SACD, the mastering on the CD version s*cks)
• "What is and What Should Never Be" Remastered Led Zepplin, FLAC
• "Spiral" Hiromi Uhera (from SACD)

Test/Playback system is Ayre K5 preamp with Aragon X3 power amplifier

Toto, I think we're back in Kansas finally with the Ardents. :B

[JonMarsh]

If Jon isn't interested in them, I would be very interested, let me know

Anyone BESIDES me should get first dibs, as I still have the MkI cabinets, and the setup to make more.

[CraigJ]

arty:arty: Happy Birthday Jon!

[JonMarsh]

Thanks Craig! Appreciate the wishes!

[dar47]

Yes Happy Birthday, big guy!

It also looks like you were allowed to sneak out for the day, great progress on the xover.:T Looking forward to the rest of your planned tweaks.
Make sure you take some time for a good meal and include some cake.:lol:

[JonMarsh]

Thanks- trying the 3rd C4 iteration is probably the last thing to do- should be on that soon this AM- then I"ll update the schematic and BOM. I'll also try some listening on the big system, and try to do the grille panels with cloth. But with taking the gals to the airport in the morning, the most productive time tomorrow will be tied up. It's been hot up here lately- not uncommon for September if the off shore breeze goes away due to a high pressure zone paraded over the area- it didn't get down to 90 until 8 last night.

[JonMarsh]

Tweeter C4 update

Making some more progress this AM, I prefer the 4.7uF in the crossover for C4, but sims show the start of some on axis peaking if we go above that.

I measured in a couple of different spots in the room, and saw the typical room induced variability below 1 kHz, and pretty consistent results above that.


Here's an overlay of two measurements with different room positions-



Here's an average of those two positions, with an overlay of a quasi near field pickup of just the woofers, to give you an idea of how smooth things actually are coming out of the cabinet.



This includes the effect of BSC, and some enclosure boundary interaction, but it mostly eliminates room issues, so I think it gives a better idea of the LF fidelity.

Now I should work on the grilles and the supplementary felt for the tweeter, (the grille panel is actually in place, but the felt setup was cut away to allow me to use another type around the tweeter, not installed yet- have to go home for that.)

I'll also work on the schematic (consider it final) and updated BOM this afternoon- it's going to be too hot here for anything else! (It's already 90 here at 11:30 AM).

[JonMarsh]

OK, I remembered that I'd been looking at the phase on the midrange roll off previously in LspCAD, value of C3, and increasing it made things behave better below the design axis (in LspCAD, anyway). SO I wired in a twisted pair and tested values external, and though LspCAD says 10 uf more is the way to go, measurements show 6.8 uF, for a net of 27uF, gives the best above and below design axis result. So, C3 will be updated, too. Basically, the "flat" vertical window is taller and better centered on the design axis now.

[JonMarsh]

Oh, and an updated schematic could be useful.





Now it's time to figure out some way to cool off- 102 outside, and 85 in the family room where I'm working on the speakers...

Oh, and not all the MFR part numbers have been updated and double checked on the schematic- I'm sure that L1 is wrong on the PE part number, though the value is correct now.

[dar47]

Looking mighty good.:T

You will have to do a show and tell with some pics when you get to the grill felt, very curious!

Not sure if C6d is 68uf or 56uf, part# for 68uf is 027-952 not 027-950.

Those Mandorf resisters have values of R3, 3.2 ohms, R4, 4.2 and R4, R4b 8.2ohms, are these close enough to the 3,4,8ohm xover values?

If you get a chance can you take a 2m measure with the cab 2-3' from a wall. i like to get your impression of how close is to close?

[JonMarsh]

Component values on the schematic take precedence over possibly out dated part numbers, though I updated some of those, too. I'll be sure to give a complete pass on that soon.

Mundorf has values which comply with the normal 5% tolerance resistor values, not the traditional values often used for audio- but for this sort of application, no real difference between 8 and 8.2 ohms, for example. Mundorf has 3.3, that's the actual value used for R3. Mundorf has 3.9, which is what is actually in R6, but if you want to use another brand with more typical audio values, go with 4 ohms. I'll update the schematic to reflect that.

You can substitute other brands and types, of course, but I really like the lack of a "sound" with the Mundorf 20W, and given we have to use some significant power attenuation or dissipation at times, given the woofer sensitivity, I prefer not to be driving the resistors over too wide a temperature range, as that causes changes in value (and distortion) as a function of power dissipation. Besides, if they're good enough for Magico, they're good enough for me. :W

I'll spec the caps based on my recommendations- that can always be altered based on your budget, but I REALLY recommend not going cheap on the tweeter caps. And if you should win the lottery, consider Clarity MR's on the tweeters, though I built these with Jantzen Superior Z, and think they sound pretty good. Similarly, I've done my best to minimize the cost of the inductors as feasible, especially when they're in series with a resistance anyway.

I'll see if I can setup the one speaker in the main system and move it to where you describe, and measure in place, and back against the wall, too, which I recall you mentioning earlier- hopefully tomorrow after I get the gals dropped off at the airport.

BTW, these really are fun to listen to- very articulate all through the range, and very convincing in the bottom end. I really like those Wavecor woofer a lot- possibly more than the Aurasounds. They're giving me ideas for another project, that I'd like to keep in a relatively small footprint but high performance. It depends on whether I can get the matching PR from anyone- so far, the only places stocking them are in Germany!

[JonMarsh]

Regarding boundary placement issues, you might find this short thread helpful to review, for the basic concepts and physics.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?10872-Guestimating-room-gain&p=138262#post138262

[kvardas]

I bet these speakers sound fantastic! Is it time for me to find a new home for my M8tas and make the plunge into the Wavercor Ardents!

[dar47]

Really appreciate all the work in a hot house.:T I'm glad your liking the sound and it will be interesting how you rant these when your done stereo pair.

I think i'm going with the Jantzen super Z option for mid and tweet. I did add 27uf ESA for C3a, cheaper then last xo with 2 parts but more then the SA slightly.

Here my bill just xover without taxes and shipping. Still need to add the mids and some small what knots. Ben considering the $300. hit for the MR's though. Haha.



We will save on multiple item pricing ordering together and just 1 shipping cost so all is good.

[JonMarsh]

Well thank you for putting that all together so nicely- this will go into the official design/build thread where we give them the facts, all the facts, and just the facts, and reference the "journal" thread (this one) for further reading and amusement!

I've got some felt ready for experiments on the immediate tweeter area this coming Saturday, and plan to cover at least one of the grills, too. I got the gals off to the airport yesterday, but didn't make any speaker progress after I got all my "necessary" chores done, other that listening and marveling at how much I like the sound of the Wavecor SW223 in this cabinet, and doing a few what if's with it for a line array bass section with PR before having dinner with daughter and her fiancé (who is also a "Jon".). (Continuity is good in some things, eh?)

I've been looking at the piggy bank and trying to decide if I can afford one of those M22 NAD NCORE amps before Xmas or not- it's coming down to keeping my existing phone a while, and cutting back on a few other things, or squeezing out doing it. I am tempted by the M22, as I expect it is based on NCORE 1200 technology, and I expect it sounds rather fine. And runs my cooler than my Cambridge (180 watt quiescent). But will probably have to wait.... I should just make some free time out of thin air and do my NCORE 400 build! (easier said than done... )

I haven't forgotten about doing special in room near boundary measurements for you either, but wanted to refer you to the above reference thread for an understanding of what that does, based on physics. Mike isn't as happy as he ought to be with his big white Isis clones, but based on what he's told me about the room setup and position, that's a big factor.

[JonMarsh]

I bet these speakers sound fantastic! Is it time for me to find a new home for my M8tas and make the plunge into the Wavercor Ardents!

You know, I think things are just about completely sorted out... Did you notice they have a set of front panels available? (if BigJohn hasn't scooped them up yet). I'm really pleased with how the Wavecor woofer has worked out in this design, enabling a very good sealed system response and extension in the original size Ardent enclosure. They're not cheap, unfortunately, but they are good... you will need a bit more amplifier power- I'd recommend 100W and up. I really need to get my butt in gear and get my nCore 400 build assembled, and see how they work with this.

[kvardas]

You know, I think things are just about completely sorted out... Did you notice they have a set of front panels available? (if BigJohn hasn't scooped them up yet). I'm really pleased with how the Wavecor woofer has worked out in this design, enabling a very good sealed system response and extension in the original size Ardent enclosure. They're not cheap, unfortunately, but they are good... you will need a bit more amplifier power- I'd recommend 100W and up. I really need to get my butt in gear and get my nCore 400 build assembled, and see how they work with this.

Folks, are the remaining pair of front panels still available? If so, please let me know.

I have a pair of mono block meitner mtr-101 amps (100 watts each) that might work just fine.

Thanks

Kris

[dar47]

Thanks for the room link, I can see how boundaries come into play and I'm looking to improve the room layout. I will put some nice glides under the bases to facilitate being able to move them out for extended music sessions. As soon as the youngest vacates my basement (hopefully next summer when he is done school), the gaming will be done :lol: and I will have more setup options too.

Thanks for the tip on the M22. By the way I just got a return call from my local NAD dealer and he says the M22 will not be available in Canada till late October. Not impressed with the retail CAN price $3500. but told him to sharpen his pencil so maybe Ben and I could each get one. :E

Sounds like your going to have some alone time, enjoy!

[dar47]

Folks, are the remaining pair of front panels still available? If so, please let me know.

I have a pair of mono block meitner mtr-101 amps (100 watts each) that might work just fine.

Thanks

Kris

Hey, Kris

Jim may get them if the shipping isn't to steep, I have to confirm for him but if he doesn't go for it your next.

[benthe8track]

So it looks like it will cost an extra 175$ to do Clarity MR caps in the tweeter section. That's an extra 3% on the entire project, think it will sound at least 3% better? I've only used Solen caps in the past so I really have no idea.

[JonMarsh]

So it looks like it will cost an extra 175$ to do Clarity MR caps in the tweeter section. That's an extra 3% on the entire project, think it will sound at least 3% better? I've only used Solen caps in the past so I really have no idea.

Tony Gee has auditioned and tested a lot of caps, and in general, I find his subjective reports to track well with my own. Obviously, in any given system, there can be other issues that will render a degree of coloration in the HF area which makes the difference between the two moot, or even the benefit of either inaudible. Say, the case of using a MOR DVD player as a CD audio source, and that going through a MOR or low end HT receiver. But assuming other things are up to snuff, these thoughts seem pretty reasonable to me:

Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Cap MKP 800VDC - 2% tolerance

Technical specifications: metallized polypropylene film, high-grade copper lead wire. The finish is a flame-retardant tape wrap, and the end of the caps is resin sealed to protect against humidity. Loss angle tan = 0.00002 to 1K; Loss angle tan = 0.00001 to 10K.

Sound: Very neutral and coherent balance, they don't seem to high-light anything and I mean that in a positive way! They are a little flatter in presentation than their more expensive brother, the Silver Z-Cap but still better than the Clarity Cap SA in depth and spatial information. In direct comparison with a Clarity Cap SA they are less up-front in the lower treble and have a better texturing of acoustic instruments like a violin for example. In the upper treble they are slightly brighter than a Mundorf Silver/Gold which probably explains the good spatial information and separation. Compared to the Jantzen Audio Silver Z-Cap I find them the more musical of the two and I will definitely add them to my favourites list.

Verdict: 10

(the description of the construction is lacking, as the Jantzen are built inside an aluminum tube for mechanical stiffness and resonance control, the tape wrap being applied over that)

Clarity Cap MR MKP 630VDC – 3% tolerance

Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): “The MR range of capacitors is the result of an extensive ground breaking two year research programme into audio grade capacitors. The resulting capacitor is, we believe, at the leading edge of today's high quality audio grade capacitors. The component is manufactured in such a way to substantially reduce the negative effects of resonance on sonic quality which is inherent in a wound component. This results in a sonic characteristic which is difficult to equal. Manufactured from metallised polypropylene film the component is housed in a coloured acrylic tube and encapsulated in an epoxy resin to assist in the overall sonic performance. ”

Sound: Like the Clarity Cap DTAC, the Clarity Cap MR doesn't have that dark character of the standard Clarity Caps and sounds in comparison very spatial and clear. Spatiality is one of the main strengths of this capacitor supported by very good separation of the individual instruments and vocals. The music is placed before a very quiet background with lots of detail making retrieval of ambient information like the natural reverberation of a concert hall easily distinguishable. Compared to a Mundorf Silver-Gold-Oil they are ultimately a little less transparent, presenting the information more up-front with a slight focus on the lower treble range. In comparsion the Mundorf SGO has a slight focus on the upper treble range.

Verdict: 11+

So, one might interpret that as a smidgen better than 10% better? :W

If you want to move up from this, well, we're talking about Duelund caps, then- and if you have to ask what the price is, it's too much! :W


Another well rated (12) upper end cap is the Audyn True copper series; a few values are carried by Parts Express, but keep in mind a 2.2uF cap (2%) is almost $100. Gets out of control quickly. Compare that with the Jantzen Superior Z. But then, a 2.2 uF Duelund RS is $192. Ahem. Out of my value proposition range! A 2.2 uF 400V Clarity MR sounds pretty reasonable in comparison at $44.20.

[augerpro]

Beautiful speaker Jon! Question on the caps: if one had to economize, how do you feel about using smaller bypass caps with Clarity MR and a cheaper big cap, like Jantzen Z-Standard?

[JonMarsh]

Beautiful speaker Jon! Question on the caps: if one had to economize, how do you feel about using smaller bypass caps with Clarity MR and a cheaper big cap, like Jantzen Z-Standard?

That technique has had a lot of currency in the past, but based on more recent understandings of what caps are doing that creates problems (like the Clarity MR white paper) I'm not convinced there's a logical basis for doing that. Yes, the nicer bypass caps may change the transfer function in the top end, provide some air or balance that the primary cap lacks. But, what concerns me, is that the biggest problem seems to be the mechanical resonances which occur within typical cap constructions and are excited by the audio current flowing through the cap. Putting a small bypass cap in parallel still means the vast majority of the current will be flowing through the larger cap, due to the difference in XC. (X sub C, that is, the effective impedance of the capacitor at a given audio frequency; this is largely dependent on the capacitor value; if you have a 1 uf in parallel with a 10 uF cap, the 10uF cap at 3 kHz will have 1/10th the XC, and so about 90% of the current will flow through it...

Now, it's a free country, and feel free to experiment. The ideal thing would be if we could quantify the issues between different caps, and try to match them together with complementary characteristics, but it's the grunge, haze, and glare that's actually being generated in the cap (if the electrodes vibrate internally due to resonance, this modifies the capacitance at the frequencies of resonance, changing the signal going through, and likely has a more pronounced effect when carrying a multiplicity of frequencies, as a resonance which occurs at one frequency will create capacitance modulation that affects all frequencies going through the cap to a degree.

Then, too, if your tweeter is not so refined, and other issues in the system exist, then the influence of the cap quality tends to be minimized, all other things NOT being equal. In other words, the effort and amount that is reasonable to spend is very dependent, IMO, on the complete system configuration and performance target. In this as in most things, YMMV! And no generalization is worth a damn, including this one! :W

[augerpro]

Thanks Jon, I suspected as much.

[benthe8track]

Tony Gee has auditioned and tested a lot of caps, and in general, I find his subjective reports to track well with my own. Obviously, in any given system, there can be other issues that will render a degree of coloration in the HF area which makes the difference between the two moot, or even the benefit of either inaudible. Say, the case of using a MOR DVD player as a CD audio source, and that going through a MOR or low end HT receiver. But assuming other things are up to snuff, these thoughts seem pretty reasonable to me:






(the description of the construction is lacking, as the Jantzen are built inside an aluminum tube for mechanical stiffness and resonance control, the tape wrap being applied over that)






So, one might interpret that as a smidgen better than 10% better? :W

If you want to move up from this, well, we're talking about Duelund caps, then- and if you have to ask what the price is, it's too much! :W


Another well rated (12) upper end cap is the Audyn True copper series; a few values are carried by Parts Express, but keep in mind a 2.2uF cap (2%) is almost $100. Gets out of control quickly. Compare that with the Jantzen Superior Z. But then, a 2.2 uF Duelund RS is $192. Ahem. Out of my value proposition range! A 2.2 uF 400V Clarity MR sounds pretty reasonable in comparison at $44.20.

Well I'm sold
Haha yeah I took a look at Deulund, a 10uf cap is almost $500. Even with the MR it looks like the Xover is "under budget" at ~$1400. Do you anticipate any more tweaking of xover components with the grille felt? I'm thinking of ordering from one of the stores shortly.