Wavecor Ardent Journal - the first Builds

[5th element]

The starting prices for the Nimbus are actually a lot lower than I expected too, they are certainly a high value option in the world of $100,000 speakers.

[Jed]

Others like Clearwave Audio (Jed's business) do use the OEM RAAL with 1st order networks, but I hear from some of my acquaintances that distortion is rising below 2200-2300 Hz, so crossover frequency and slope and transition band should be managed carefully for best results- low order stuff up around 3500, steeper slopes below that.

To clarify, the OEM RAAL, at least the custom version I've used for some of my applications, hits an LR4 acoustic transfer function with a single series cap. Some other designs with the same tweeter required second order electrical to hit a LR4 acoustic transfer function, though they had a different cabinet shape and/or crossover point. It just depends on how all the ingredients and variables come together.

Jed

[JonMarsh]

Thanks Jed- that clarifies some things- I wonder how much of the roll off is their transformer, versus the acoustical properties of the driver? the former would make sense, as it would lessen the work load on the ribbon element.

Nice to hear from you again!

[Jed]

Thanks Jed- that clarifies some things- I wonder how much of the roll off is their transformer, versus the acoustical properties of the driver? the former would make sense, as it would lessen the work load on the ribbon element.

Nice to hear from you again!

Hi Jon...thanks. Regarding the OEM RAAL, the custom transformer has a lot to do with the acoustic output level and roll off, along with the Fc, and baffle shape.

[JonMarsh]

Makes sense!

[5th element]

If they build in a basic filter within the transformers intrinsic response it also ensures some protection for the tweeter for those less experienced. That and making it easier to implement by requiring less xover parts.

[JonMarsh]

Makes modeling the crossover accurately more difficult, without a clear value for input shunt inductance. Of course, I can measure that on my LCR meter and include it as a "hidden" crossover element.

[5th element]

Surely if one measures the impedance of the tweeter after the transformer then the relevant data has been gathered?

[JonMarsh]

That depends on how it's handled in the simulator- if it looks like a declining frequency dependent resistance, that's not the same as an inductive shunt reactance which will store and recirculate energy at some frequencies. That will be something to investigate.

[JonMarsh]

Rubbing compound, Abralon disks, and other supplies for finishing the lacquer have arrived, getting ready for what I hope will be the big finishing push coming Easter weekend. I also located a misplaced package of Clarity MR caps and inductors for tweeter evaluation; may wind up being for Isiris instead, depending on how the size looks (Clarity MR caps are BIG!)

This morning I'm diverted from speaker tasks, as for several reasons I need to move the NSX from my garage in Livermore to Danville. Though the timing was not ideal, I am looking forward to having it over there and once the current speaker projects are wrapped up, getting back to my garage queen- there's a whole overhead rack filled with parts for it, as well as a corner of one of my off site storage units! Time to smell some oil and bust some knuckles... well, maybe later this year; though I think I'm going to leave the painting work up to B&S Hacienda in Livermore/Pleasanton/San Ramon, who does most of the Acura, Audi, Honda, Porsche, and Mercedes paint work in this area... they're also Lexus, Infiniti, and BMW certified. I hope that counts for something besides higher prices... :W

I realize that because I create a lot of projects with high aspiration and optimism, these projects often don't get completed very quickly, but I also have to say some haven't even been started fully very quickly! My garage queen has languished for years, due to work and other efforts being in the forefront.

Where I live in Livermore, you''d be amazed at how much dust accumulates on a car over a few years, even when the garage door is shut all the time! It's been moved over to GF's this AM (she suggests I refer to her as my POSSLQ, I leave that as a homework assignment for you; hint, she's worked for the Census bureau on occasion), and I have taken some pictures, which I will NOT post today, showing the rather sad "before" state with a thick coat of dust and all; they will be used for my updates on the SPEED thread when I have some progress to report. She thought it looked pretty grungy on the outside, but then I showed her some inside stuff, including engine bay and trunk, and the pristine conditions there somewhat mollified her... after all, it is an 18 year old car... but then, hers is a 52 year old car, and her engine bay is pretty spotless, if not quite concurs.


Bummer news for the weekend: my local Woodcraft store is shutting down and going out of business- the owners want to retire, and they haven't found anyone to buy it or take it over... scheisse, scheisse!

[JonMarsh]

Making more progress...

OK, got some real work done, too, though not as much as originally planned- but there's always tomorrow...


I didn't take time to grind down one of the trim bits for the rebate work, but just set it up for the basic FP holes for now....






The real trick for most of the top veneer cleanup was that Swiss roughing knife and a steel rule backed against the underside of the veneer, followed up with the orbital sander with 80 grit Abranet pads





The first of the sides was applied, with a little positioning help from my POSSLQ. Then trimmed the same way...





So far it's going together pretty well - expect to do the other side tomorrow, perhaps the top bevel edge and top. Also have some car things to take care of, and laundry for the week- having no time except work and sleep during the week is really a drag...

[dar47]

Looking real good :T Your ruler trick looks fast and the cab prep looks like it's paying off with nice flat veneer. I'm jealous your working in the back yard it's good your enjoying your spring.

We put in our order from Solen and took all their Wavecors, 4-6640's, some gold Cardas binding posts and some gold disconnects. I was worried we waited too long to order but they honored their December discount quote. Next big day for us is Tuesday we haul our cabs over for spray, hope they turn out.

[JonMarsh]

Looking real good :T Your ruler trick looks fast and the cab prep looks like it's paying off with nice flat veneer. I'm jealous your working in the back yard it's good your enjoying your spring.

We put in our order from Solen and took all their Wavecors, 4-6640's, some gold Cardas binding posts and some gold disconnects. I was worried we waited too long to order but they honored their December discount quote. Next big day for us is Tuesday we haul our cabs over for spray, hope they turn out.

I will do some serious praying on your behalf for the finishing on Tuesday, though I have a feeling they're going to turn out fine, and very durable.

Here it is almost 8 PM and FedEx just deleverd some more of the Abranet disks for cabinet and lacquer finishing, 180, 400, and 1000 grit this time. Hope to get the other side done, cut new crossover bases, and maybe do the top, too, tomorrow, before I start mundane chores tomorrow, like laundry!

[JonMarsh]

Slow work takes even more time...

Finding three hours to work on these today took some juggling and effort - but it was worth it. Part of the time was spent fixing up GF's bench grinder and grinding down one of the carbide trim bits- spent about 8 times as much time grinding the bit as actually trimming the inside veneer! I also got another side put on and the top put on, and after these pics, did a "wipe on" update of the epoxy on the bevel facets. Things are coming together pretty smoothly, so far according to plan.








While I was looking for my factory shop manuals for the NSX this morning, I also came across my good books on veneering and finishing... ones I haven't paid any attention to so far... maybe I should thumb through one just for the heck of it? :huh: :roll:

[benthe8track]

Looks sharp, love that maple! Also looking forward to more NSX updates those are amazing cars.

[JonMarsh]

more ideas for getting setup for finishing

Thanks Ben, I have hopes for how the maple will turn out finished, based on having done some finishing samples for the original Ardent's using lacquer, including one piece that was birds eye. Still, I think your walnut burl is going to be the champ out of this build, and your dad's cherry looks very nice in it's current state, too- really curious to see how that turns out finished!

It also occurred to me that this big test stand I have for mounting woofers for dipole style testing could be readily adapted to the core of my lacquer exhaust baffle, mounting my explosion proof fan in the baffle hole and building some light weight wings, so that's going to get looked into, as a time saver.

I'd hoped to do more crossover stuff this weekend, but other tasks that intruded prevented that- but then I did find the "missing" MR parts, too... however, they're probably too big physically to use in this build.


Sunday AM was putting a new battery into my delayed gratification project and washing it of the accumulated dust from a nominally closed garage... also collected some of the tools, and maintenance parts and the lug and hub kits for the Bridgestone GC07 wheels in British black which are fitted with tires and ready to mount, but I'll be holding off on that for a while.



I found a more recent pic of the car before putting it into the deep freeze:



A few of the neighbors came by Sunday morning to ask and talk about the car, and her neighbor from across the street actually knew what an NSX-R was and some of what a 2002 update would entail! They just did a major update to the house, completely rebuilt the roof and extended the front wall and rebuilt the garage- with land prices being so high relative to the cost of construction, a lot of people are doing that sort of thing around here, rather than move and pay real estate commissions and higher property taxes.

These pics illustrate the target desired, in the existing color of the car...






It's going to be a lot of work, and likely something I should leave to retirement, but I'm not willing to wait that long! I just need to finish the current and next planned speaker projects, then this will be up next!

[benthe8track]

It's amazing how well those cars have aged-- there is something about 90s Japanese cars that look almost timeless to me. The MR2, Supra, Rx7, NSX all still look fantastic today.

Microupdate: All 4 boxes are in, I figured these guys have been bold from the start so I went with full gloss and he said we should have them by next week.

[JonMarsh]

Can't wait to see your cabinets after they're finished!

It's amazing how well those cars have aged-- there is something about 90s Japanese cars that look almost timeless to me. The MR2, Supra, Rx7, NSX all still look fantastic today.

Microupdate: All 4 boxes are in, I figured these guys have been bold from the start so I went with full gloss and he said we should have them by next week.

yeah, about the classic 90's Japanese cars, I agree- that was the neighbor's comment from across the street, about how good the lines are and how well they age. BTW, did you know that the lead Japanese designer of the NSX (Ken Okuyama) also was tapped by GM for the 95 Camaro? Of course, considering the difference in drive trains and layouts, there is more than a passing similarity... (I know, I own one- currently used by my daughter)

One day in 2006 when I drove the NSX to work, we had our new business director from the East Coast out- who saw me going to lunch in it with one of the other engineers, and asked me how I liked my new Corvette... well, I guess you wouldn't really say he was a car guy, but as a ten year old car it did look very contemporary, aside from the good condition. Still does at 18 years old. Then again, a lot of people have never heard of the NSX- my GF hadn't prior to meeting me. Of course, that's a little excusable, as she's a Porsche lover. In those shoes, who cares about 20 year old Japanese sports cars, when you can have a 50 year old German one?!! :W


Full gloss is what I'm going to attempt, too, I think it will get the best out of the Birds eye maple. I've got my fingers crossed for you and your dad- will be VERY interested/curious to see how they turn out, though for the rustic Cherry I might expect satin would look very nice.

[5th element]

Full gloss is what I'm going to attempt, too, I think it will get the best out of the Birds eye maple.

When I read this I thought for a second that you meant you were going to redo the NSX in Birds eye maple. Now that would look ridiculous.

[JonMarsh]

When I read this I thought for a second that you meant you were going to redo the NSX in Birds eye maple. Now that would look ridiculous.

would definitely be dada or Fank Zappa-ish- or very, VERY retro!

[5th element]

would definitely be dada or Fank Zappa-ish- or very, VERY retro!

You mean so retro it'd need a horse at the business end to make it go?

(A la wooden cart).

[JonMarsh]

Exactamundo!

[5th element]

With the NSX stranger things have happened!

[JonMarsh]

With the NSX stranger things have happened!

Boy, you aren't kidding there... I guess I'm really a sort of conservative curmudgeon, in my own way, but I just cringe at some of the customizations and builds I see on NSX Prime, much less some other sites. There are some good, inspirational ones there, too, but there's also some huge displays of a total lack of taste, and pursuit of form over function.

Now, here's an example of a nicely done car and picture from the Bay area, a somewhat subtle update on an older red model (I think it was a 91 or 92) with nice wheels, the type R spoiler, and updated side spats.





The picture was nicely done because the car was masked out and the background contrast and tone curve adjusted to bring out the grit and grunge in the background, while leaving the car "normal". Nice effect.

OTOH, this car does "suffer" from excessive lowering (seems to be all the rage for years now), so there's almost no front suspension travel- keep in mind the preferred look these days is to use wheels wide enough and with offset spacers or built in offset to fit flush with the outside of the wheel arches, and as close as possible to them in resting state. (even my Volks and certainly my Bridgestone Prodrive GC07's follow that path). With a lowered setup like this, hit a bump in the road at speed, and you have real problems. I know, I undid a lowered suspension in my car after I bought it. You know, it just may be that Ayrton Senna and Honda know more or less what they were doing with the original.

If you do track days a lot, and not much on the street, then the Zanardi Type S shocks are a good compromise, or stock springs with Bilstein shocks. Even the type R suspension units are really only suitable for track work, not for a street car driven on a variety of roads.

[Hank]

my local Woodcraft store is shutting down and going out of business- the owners want to retire, and they haven't found anyone to buy it or take it over

THIS could be an opportunity from above: Jon retires and takes over the Woodcraft store - doesn't have to travel for work any more. Uses the demo room equipment to show customers how to use it (on speaker cabinets of course). Personal discounts. Big smile. Think about it.

[TEK]

THIS could be an opportunity from above: Jon retires and takes over the Woodcraft store - doesn't have to travel for work any more. Uses the demo room equipment to show customers how to use it (on speaker cabinets of course). Personal discounts. Big smile. Think about it.

+ one on that one.
Jon, it's time to follow and realise our dream ;-)

[JonMarsh]

Hey, I've done retail before... think co-owner of high end audio store in Boulder Colorado in the mid seventies... not going down that road again! Trouble is, with the exception of guys like Ben who started this thread, the majority of guys doing DIY in wood that I've seen in the East Bay and in the Woodcraft store are even older than I am... I've seen the other customers in the Woodcraft store- around here, it's a dying breed... literally. Middle class joe's can't afford the space for a home workshop in this area, unless they bought it 30 years ago! The ones who can afford it, like the tech guys and gals making out at Google and Facebook and Apple and Tesla, aren't doing home DIY- they don't have the time- they just buy stuff.

Sad but true... IMO.

[Hank]

Whoa - that was rejected out of hand instantly. I grew up in retailing - supermarket biz - worked my way through school. Then ran a Gibson Discount Center for a while and swore I'd never do retail again, so I do understand your reaction, Jon. But this is different - it's a fit. There may be enough woodworkers in your area to support the store until you retire. Of course an audit of the store's books would be in order. If it turns out the owners are bailing because of unacceptable revenue, that's another story.
Okay, stay with your current indentured job:W

[JonMarsh]

Whoa - that was rejected out of hand instantly. I grew up in retailing - supermarket biz - worked my way through school. Then ran a Gibson Discount Center for a while and swore I'd never do retail again, so I do understand your reaction, Jon. But this is different - it's a fit. There may be enough woodworkers in your area to support the store until you retire. Of course an audit of the store's books would be in order. If it turns out the owners are bailing because of unacceptable revenue, that's another story.
Okay, stay with your current indentured job:W

Let's just say I have golden cuffs where I work now... and leave it at that. That means there are too many advantages to staying another three years or so to jump somewhere else. Advantages of a scope sufficient to pay for a fully loaded Tesla Model S, for example. And then some.

Apparently the current owners had several people looking into it, and deciding against buying them out, even at probably a low price, since they're just going to liquidate now. It's sad, for sure...

the only place I could come up with an investment for something like this would be liquidating some of my Apple stock, and that I don't want to do, for a host of reasons. But thanks for the input and concern.

[JonMarsh]

Good shipping and receiving day yesterday! Many parts and materials arriving- Cinch feedthrough barrier terminals off eBay, Titebond polyurethane hot glue for the crossover construction, the last of the polishing disks, tips for the new Weller WESD51 soldering station (my 15 year old Weller temp control station is becoming problematic to buy parts for) and some more Vampire binding posts.

Now, if only it weren't scheduled to rain tomorrow- would make things much easier. But there's plenty to do building inside, too! :B

[dar47]

Good shipping and receiving day yesterday! Many parts and materials arriving- Cinch feedthrough barrier terminals off eBay, Titebond polyurethane hot glue for the crossover construction, the last of the polishing disks, tips for the new Weller WESD51 soldering station (my 15 year old Weller temp control station is becoming problematic to buy parts for) and some more Vampire binding posts.

Now, if only it weren't scheduled to rain tomorrow- would make things much easier. But there's plenty to do building inside, too! :B

This is good, the American factory is keeping up it"s end :T The Canadian Ardent division is starting to see final assemble parts trickle in, HeHe.



The Wavecor's are black, even the spider and terminal leads. Thought we had a scratch on 1 of the frames but after touching (bad eyes) it was just some plastic. 2 shipping boxs were 60 lbs each, these are not going to be a light weight speaker. :B

[benthe8track]

Awesome! Hopefully boxes back on Monday.

[JonMarsh]

This is good, the American factory is keeping up it"s end :T The Canadian Ardent division is starting to see final assemble parts trickle in, HeHe.



The Wavecor's are black, even the spider and terminal leads. Thought we had a scratch on 1 of the frames but after touching (bad eyes) it was just some plastic. 2 shipping boxs were 60 lbs each, these are not going to be a light weight speaker. :B

totally awesome! This is great to see!

No, there are NOT going to be a light speaker, I can tell that from the one cabinet with drivers mounted for testing. Without handles on it like my Marshall cabs, it's a bit of a bear to move around. In fact, it's heavier than the Marshall cabs, too, which are made from plywood.

I think I have a (revised) tentative plan for getting a crossover laid out and built this weekend, too. It's going to rain Saturday, we've been told, so apart from doing some low dust sanding of the facet bevels that were recoated with epoxy, Saturday should mostly be cutting out the new phenolic sheet pieces with a new sizing plan, and investigating if it's possible to lay it out so that I can still use bolt holes in the location of your original template which you guys sent to me. If so, it may get assembled in the end using those flat top furniture assembly bolts which you can buy at the hardware store, I suspect. All plans subject to change once the enemy (reality) is engaged.




Mostly considering using these because

1) Low profile
2) I have a bunch of them

[benthe8track]

Speaking of fasteners, does anyone other than madisound sell these guys:



If not I'll have to wait until we place our madisound order, I'm not keen on paying 40 dollars to ship 6 dollars worth of screws.

[JonMarsh]

Speaking of fasteners, does anyone other than madisound sell these guys:



If not I'll have to wait until we place our madisound order, I'm not keen on paying 40 dollars to ship 6 dollars worth of screws.

Hmmm, haven't seen these locally- that's why my initial build for driver testing here was using the philips head stainless steel Private Messages wood screws- the best local alternative. I'm guessing you've already checked all of your relatively local hardware sources? What about Solen in CA?

this AM I'm trimming facet edges, and working on the baseplate assemblies- have a pair with mounting holes cut in the pattern of your template, with Forstner bits used for recesses; it looks promising, but I have to figure out if things can be arranged so that I can use the Cinch barrier feedthrough connectors, or whether I'll only have room to route the Cardas SE-11 through holes; - that seems a little unprofessional in assembly technique, but with the space issue, I may not have a choice. Hope to have that mostly sorted by the end of today, but it's sunny this AM, and yesterday was raining, and a bunch of rain coming up, so I'm focussing on wood working this AM (and filling out paper work for the Antarctica trip in 2015 that MUST be turned in today, scanned and emailed, according to GF.

[JonMarsh]

Facet edges are trimmed, and the top front facet bevel has been applied, last veneer on this cabinet (officially Test Article 2). Now I need to work on Antarctica trip paper work, and then later before heading home to do laundry and see daughter for dinner, I'll be working on the crossover layout and component mounting. Think I need another trip to the hardware store, too...

Pictures will go up later today. I'm taking very mindful approach for the veneering work, which is working out well, but it occurs to me that writing that up a bit may help others going down this path- I could create a Wavecor Ardent Build Hints & Techniques, but maybe I should just make some pages in Microsoft OneNote and export into PDFs and link for download? You and your dad don't need that, many of the more experienced guys don't, but there might be some who'll want to tackle these without quite as much cumulative experience. I will also need to take the CAD files and see if I can put together an updated set of "conventional construction" PDFs.

[kevinm]

With my attention to this thread, I have a fairly sure feeling a pair of these will be in my future, so I would love that! ^^

[knowledgebass]

Speaking of fasteners, does anyone other than madisound sell these guys:
...

If not I'll have to wait until we place our madisound order, I'm not keen on paying 40 dollars to ship 6 dollars worth of screws.

Had the same problem. Solen has them but that might only save you $10 or so. I found the #7 Kreg pan head screws would fit the drivers I'm using (Anarchy) but I have to paint them. At least they were only a few bucks for 100 pieces. I also tried Fastenal and couldn't find anything for under $50.

[benthe8track]

Had the same problem. Solen has them but that might only save you $10 or so. I found the #7 Kreg pan head screws would fit the drivers I'm using (Anarchy) but I have to paint them. At least they were only a few bucks for 100 pieces. I also tried Fastenal and couldn't find anything for under $50.

Yeah I wish I knew Solen had them, I'll give her a call tomorrow. Hopefully they cut me some slack on the shipping considering we just bought near 5k from them last week.

[JonMarsh]

Hmmm, first post submitted at Starbucks this AM didn't "take". :W


Working on crossover base plates and veneering this weekend, not nearly as much free time for that as I would have liked, due to other issues. Still, some progress...




Doing the facet veneer, before trim with knife:




And afterward, before sanding



Back out doors for sanding with the orbital sander, 120 grit, Mirka pad, taking care to keep off the adjacent veneer face:



Post sanding on facet bevel:




Post sanding after top bevel:



I think the birds eye will look pretty nice after the lacquer clear coat- just may justify the price!




And back indoors for storage. Next weekend focus is purely on crossover construction and testing.

[dar47]

Wow! Those look so nice, love the maple and it looks like your prep paid off with nice crisp lines. I think the maple in a well lit room is going to be stunning. I didn't see any pics with inset magnets to hold the grills on, did you decide to go another route for grill?

[JonMarsh]

Wow! Those look so nice, love the maple and it looks like your prep paid off with nice crisp lines. I think the maple in a well lit room is going to be stunning. I didn't see any pics with inset magnets to hold the grills on, did you decide to go another route for grill?

Haven't gotten to that stage yet- that's the next thing, forstner bits for the magnets and the binding posts recess on the back side. Step by step, inch by inch! That will all happen before the finish sanding and actual finishing process. I lost an earlier post today at Starbucks going in to some detail about that.

I do have some hopes about how these will turn out, based on my past experiments with curly maple and birds eye maple with clear lacquer. I'm really on pins and needles about how your cabinets are going to turn out this week!

[5th element]

In the nautilus clones I used magnets to help hold the front baffle on. The B&W mounts from the rear with an M6 bolt and I didn't like the idea of the entire weight of the front baffle + drivers being support solely by it. As a result I 'forstnered' (forester Jon? seems like your spellcheck got you, it almost got me!) in some 18mm neo magnets. 12 per side, 6 into the baffle and 6 into the cabinet set to attract one another. The magnets are 35 grade and 6mm thick. Between the baffle and cabinet is a layer of foam weather sealer strip, so the magnets aren't in direct contact, but even still I completely over engineered, I have to fight if I want to remove the baffle.

So if you do go the route of magnets make sure you keep things somewhat toned down because you don't want to damage that lovely veneer, or stand the risk of having a magnet pull itself out. As a side note, I used epoxy to glue the magnets into the polyester resin + marble dust and simply hot-melt glue into the MDF. The hot-melt surprised me, it holds the magnets in really well. I think the idea of putting a thin layer of rubber matting or similar between the grille and the cabinet would be a good idea anyway. It would prevent things from slipping, add in a layer of protection from things 'snapping' into place and prevent the grille from perhaps resonating against the main cabinet.

[JonMarsh]

I've got some special polyurethane hot melt glue cartridges for that fancy-schmancy Titebond hot glue gun- for now, that's what I plan to use for the magnets for the grille panel. The grille panels are pretty light, even with the cloth I've got I don't think this will be a problem. Of course, famous last words because this is the Proto1 build... :W

Thanks for the suggestions, may give me some useful ideas if I run into problems- but probably won't get solved before May 3! :B

Yeah, stupid auto-magic spell check doesn't know/recognize all these esoteric wood working terms! Fixed!

[dar47]

I'm really on pins and needles about how your cabinets are going to turn out this week!

I'm trying not to think a bought it, Ben's guy now says Thursday they should be ready. I hope that's because he is taking extract special care and allowing dry time between coats?

We will wait and see what your up to with the grill mounting. Also curious to see how your going to trim the felt. 8)